Canonfire!

Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:41 am What is the offical word From WOTC on Greyhawk?

Is it a dead campagin world or will we be seeing more product during 4th ed and beyond?
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What the hell is an aluminum falcon? (robot chicken star wars special

Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:24 am

A. I am fairly sure there is no official word. I think they've become adept at skirting that issue in truth.

B. Greyhawk is regularly mined for 4th edition conversions. So anyone wishing to run GH moving forward with WotC is quite able to. Afterall, the setting fluff in the 83 Guide (1st edition), From the Ashes (2nd edition) and the LGG (3rd) are all quite compatible with any edition due to their loose inclusion of game rules. For those who have to have new feats, classes, powers, etc all wrapped up in a setting book, well....

C. The door is always going to be open for a 4th edition GH Setting release. They did Dark Sun last and this August I fully expect their next setting conversion to be announced. The Vegas odds still aren't good for the ol Flanaess this year, but it WILL come around eventually. WotC's reluctance to let Greyhawk IP rest is a clear sign it's still in the loop. And when it does go back into production (Don't expect more than 3 books) it will already have had a few years headstart in development through Wizard's eDungeon and eDragon mags.

In my opinion, GH needs the cool down time before it is officially thrust back on the scene. Not sure why, but it feels right.

p.s. Don't expect Paizo to ever try to get a license on Greyhawk development again(This I recall reading from a Lisa Stevens post). Their highly successful Pathfinder campaign now gives them the luxury of never having to kowtow to WotC again.

Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:34 pm

Thanks for the info, I really wish Wotc would publish some of the old modules again in thier original format, (like they did in the silver anniversery set) I for one would love to see T1-4 and City of Skulls reprinted
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What the hell is an aluminum falcon? (robot chicken star wars special

Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:00 pm

I would love to see Wotc reprint some of the old modules. But it would be some time before they put out the gold edtion. By that time Wotc will be putting out 9th edtion. Confused

Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:32 am

I suspect that's what we'll end up getting, setting neutral conversions of classic modules. Kind of like what they did with Village of Hommlet. From a marketing standpoint GH is too much like the "core setting "for it to be a hot-selling item, so I don't think WoTC will ever put out a setting book or anything like that. But ever is a long time, and that's just my opinion.

Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:30 am

In the meantime, we have Tomb of Horrors out this summer which, while it will be setting neutral or more correctly be set in the PoL core setting, will undoubtedly have some GH goodness in it.

Can't see how it could be a super module as it is billed and anywhere like faithful to the original (and there is no promise that it will be) without referring to some of the area around the tomb and the backstory that has been developed over the last three editions. Here's hoping at any rate Happy

Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:20 am

Ah yes Village of Hommlet and Tomb of Horrors, I forgot about those. This further shows how GH is kept in the D&D-loop. WotC knows just on name recognition alone that GH material will sell. We could very well have several more retrofitted GH adventures like this for 4e before an actual campaign book. The rehash trend is not new either. TSR was doing with their Return to- series well before WotC started their Expedition to- stuff in late 3rd edition.

The ToH one especially intrigues me because on one hand you have the well-known lethality of the original ToH and now you have a new ToH for a 4e system where dying is intentionally made more difficult. Which wins out? Is a good balance made? Is it possible to make a death-trap dungeon anymore or will it just be a standard dungeon with balanced encounters and the ToH name slapped on the cover to draw more interest? I will certainly be looking for this one at Gencon. Thanks for the reminder.

Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:39 am

New TOH omg thats gonna suck, does anyone remember the pile of drek they tried to pass off as return to the tomb of horrors or the other 3rd ed abortions they tried to sell us as first ed retrofits. Omg please just rerelease the originals and quit trying to improve on perfection. At the risk of sounding like the old dude yelling at kids to get out of his yard, Ad&d was so much better in the 70's and 80's ever since then they have tried and tried to make it easier to play and understand for everyone and in doing so have issued a watered down product that bears no relation to the originals. I mean for god's sake killing a dragon in a game used to be a big deal now you can take em on at 3rd level WTH. Somewhere Gygax is rolling in his grave and may Vecna curse who ever is in charge of the brand at Wotc now. Ok rant over now
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What the hell is an aluminum falcon? (robot chicken star wars special

Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:55 am

well considering the 'job' that was done on the Realms for 4th edition, I have been fervently hoping that they don't come within a golden mile of the setting.

Sure I like new information on my favourite setting, but I have to say that the best fan-based material, as well as limited releases from some of its original designers (Gygax, Kuntz etc.) have been more than enough to keep the fires burning.

The last few releases have not taken the campaign in any real direction (post FTA) IMO, and has tended to retread old ground with yet another glossography. What I would like is something wholly more imaginative..... campaign materials for a Baklunish or Suloise setting, Sea of Dust adventure giude or campaign etc. In other words something which brings something new to the table, not just a reheat.

Sure I accept that for the players new to the setting they need something to get started, but in published for Greyhawk has often seemed just another missed opportunity.

Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:01 am

Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:17 am

Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:08 am

I think he probably meant Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, which by all accounts was pretty dire. :)

Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:45 pm

Yeah, I was really looking forward to RttToEE, got it, opened it up, and thought "WTF were they thinking?!" Plain horrible book that goes off on a tangent into the 4th dimension. And I LIKE Tharizdun. ToEE does not = Mr. T though(nor does Mr. T = EEG). Just plain bad.

RttToH was fine by me. The cult springing up around the tomb was not a bad idea at all. Acererak's name has been made to carry some weight, so there being somebody actually interested in him would be no surprise. Besides, adding some background to what is, in effect, a tomb that is a series of death traps, can't but help the place be something other than a deadly amusement park ride for adventurers.

Don't forget to bring your 10' pole, or that kobold tied to the end of a 50' rope. Wink

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Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:26 pm

On a related note, for the sake of those of us who refuse to give WOTC another red cent...

Has there been any GH content in Dungeon or Dragon since WotC took it over (other than the few things prior to 4e)? If so, is it "real" GH or just ideas mined thrown in with a bunch of new, non-setting-specific stuff?

Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:32 am

Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:54 am

So far I've been pretty severely disappointed by WotC re-releases of classic scenarios. The Village of Hommlet was especially bad, failing utterly to keep any of the flavor text that made is a classic in the first place.

What I'd love to see is the classics re-released with all the flavor still untouched but with the edition mechanics updated so they can be easily played in the new editions. It seems that it would be easier for WotC as well - cut and paste and swap out stat blocks. Change a few traps and monsters around where they nolonger fit. Still I suppose one of the reason that they do do the entire rewrite is probably some copywrite issue.

At the same time copywrite issues probably prevent fans (like us here) from doing the conversions ourselves and posting them for others to use.

Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:58 pm

Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:10 pm

I was thinking that the WotC copywrite issue might be with the author/WotC agreements. I'd was thinking that if they rereleased a module and only changed the statblocks rather than doing a complete overhaul they may end up owing royalties to the original author depending on how the older writing agreements were worded.

I would love to see a section here on Canonfire or another popular fan site where people who have done an edition conversion could post what they did for other people to use. Organized somehow so you could find the scenario/edition you were looking for if its already been done. I think we could get away with it even with copywrite if it was just mechanical changes (for example: in room 412 use four orc warriors [statblock] and a ogre brute [statblock] and the trap in the chest is [statblock]). Provided that copywrited text wasn't posted would it create a problem?

Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:59 pm

As I recall, WotC has full rights to use/reuse/fold/spindle/mutilate anything they want with Greyhawk and its past products. Gygax, et al only came away from their ouster with the rights to use such names as Zagyg and a few others, but had no actual rights beyond that. For example, if you recall, in one of the Gord novels Gygax used the name Zagyg, but had to change St. Cuthbert to St. Trowbane - he had the right to use one, but not the other.

So yes, if they really wanted to WotC could release the old stuff (most of it, at least) with the old text and new stat blocks. However, they have in mind the re-packaging and re-imagining of D&D as a whole, since they want to take the game away from "geeks and hardcore hobbyists" like us and give it instead to the mainstream. That plan doesn't gibe well with releasing things that will appeal to us old-timers.

Edit: And concerning the conversion of their old stuff, as I understand it (and my information is slightly old in this case) you can only post select things to a fansite, and anything relating to 4e or any of WotC's other IP becomes technically their property. Of course, they're not bloodly likely to take your stuff or even look at your site, but the clauses in the LA are still there in case WotC decides they want to flex their muscles. I wouldn't worry too much, though - I mean, after all, this site has been around for a decade or so and nobody at WotC has yet said or done anything...

Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:29 am

He actually couldn't use the name Zagyg. The Mad Archmage was referred to in the later Gord books as Gargantua.

Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:41 pm

Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:22 pm

Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:39 pm

I think it's actually a pretty complex wordplay based on a reference to a line in an Edgar Allan Poe story, "Hop-Frog."

"He had an especial admiration for breadth in a jest, and would often put up with length, for the sake of it. Over-niceties wearied him. He would have preferred Rabelais' "Gargantua" to the "Zadig" of Voltaire: and, on the whole, practical jokes suited his taste far better than verbal ones."

Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:26 am

Although OJ 12 says it's Gigantos, not Gargantua, so my Poe explanation might be wrong.Dance of Demons and Come Endless Darkness call him the Archimage or the Mad One of Magic.

Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:15 am

The issue may have been unresolved at the time of the Gord novels, but Gary's later settlement with WOTC reaffirmed his right to anagrams (and near-anagrams) of his own name -- hence Castle Zagyg.

Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:00 pm

I should like to point out that this entire thread has continued for over 10 days without a single snarky comment from me concerning 4e, WotC, or the way Gygax got screwed by TSR.

You may all congratulate me for my self control.

Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:14 pm

Sat May 01, 2010 6:21 am

ditto. With qualifications.

Cool

Damien.

Sat May 01, 2010 7:35 pm

So I'm guessing you all wouldn't like to hear about the "Navigating Suderham" skill challenge in the 4e DMG2? Smile

Sun May 02, 2010 5:59 am

Sun May 02, 2010 10:23 am

*Hmmm. I could have sworn there were only 999 ways to do it, but . . . I've been wrong before.*

Never underestimate a Hairfoot halfling in Swedish leotards. Especially if they happen to be an assassin of Tharizdun! Evil Grin

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Sun May 02, 2010 8:04 pm

Mon May 03, 2010 7:46 am

So, I've got a half crazed assassin of Tharizdun on the one side of me and Smillian's yeshir hounds on the other side of me. Evil Grin

I'll have to summon a couple of elementals I suppose. Razz

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