Canonfire!

Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:50 pm Iuz in 4e

I'm curious as to how powerful people think Iuz should be in 4e. I'm of the opinion that he would be in the low to mid 20s - I don't think Iuz should be as powerful as his dad, Grazz't, and I think he's a natural opponent for the end of Paragon Tier. However, this makes him about as powerful as balors, which also seems weird to me. What do others think?

Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:39 pm Re: Iuz in 4e

Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:07 pm Re: Iuz in 4e

Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:41 am

Yeah level 25 or 26 elite would work fine. Iggwilv is probably a level 30 solo since she took on Grazz't and only just won.

Spittle probably weakens and slows since it used to age and wither limbs.

I think his demon form had claws, a greatsword and a wrestling attack.

He needs some sort of magical powers as well - most likely something resembling cleric, invoker, or assassin since those represent his major classes in 1e.

Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:50 am

Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:37 pm Drop the Greatsword

Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:12 am

Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:03 pm

Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:46 am

Yeah what I meant was that if he's strangling someone and they're immobilised they can still attack him and so can the other pcs whereas he is committed to attacking that one pc he is grappling. Hurling away limits what abilities the pc can use (most probably a charge unless they have ranged attacks or can stand as a free action). Hurling at another pc is possible but it's a ranged secondary attack, which might lead to opportunity attacks.

You can just represent his assassin abilities by giving him 3d6 damage if he has combat advantage and maybe just give his mannikin form a +10 bonus to stealth as part of the change shape power. Giving the demon form an additional ability like a fiery aura would also be cool.

Similarly, his clerical powers as a deity could be an aura to augment his allies or a minor action to heal or buff them.

I reckon a teleport recharge power might be good to gie him some mobility to evade marks.

He shoild possess his magical cloak, his mighty sword, plus his soul object prevents him being killed permanently.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:37 am

Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:42 am

I can't recall if Gord ever fought Iuz - I just recall a lot of talk with Iggwilv and Zuggtmoy.

His cloak was just a cloak of protection +4 which bumped his magic resistance - I'm not sure you need to stat the cloak but I mentioned it as it was one of the specific items listed in his 1e description.

A 3e version of Iuz also appeared in Dragon didn't it? I found the 3e deity rules to be rather incomprehensible but I'm sure there was useful fluff in it...

Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:16 am

3rd edition Iuz appeared in Dragon #294.

Iuz appears a lot in the Gord series, starting in Artifact of Evil. His personality can be summed up as arrogant and evil, with a giant chip on his shoulder. He resents his father and seeks to prove himself as Graz'zt's equal, and often throws a fit when anyone implies he should deal with Graz'zt under anything less than equal terms.

He's allied with his mother and Zuggtmoy; he resents them as well and would gladly destroy them both, but they're too powerful and they mostly keep him under their thumbs.

His signature moves in 1st edition seemed to be strangling his opponent, and in his mannikin form his spit which ages his opponents. His hideous appearance caused crippling revulsion in lesser beings. His large demon from used a two-handed sword, but I'm not aware of any special abilities of his staff.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:27 pm

Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:36 pm

At long last, here's my first take on "old Iuz of fearbabe talk." Warning, it's a massive wall of text for a stat block.

I'll be interested in hearing other peoples' thoughts on it, but already I'm thinking that a fight with Iuz might be better as a staged encounter. In the first stage, the PCs will take on the Boneheart and Iuz in his manikin form. I might lower Iuz's levels a bit in this case - maybe he'd be 22. The second stage begins a round or two after Iuz "dies" - he "returns" in his demonic form as a solo creature. Two simpler stat blocks would be better than one more complex one, IMO.

With respect to this stat block, I just realized I need to mention something about his soul gems. I have to add those in a future version. I also tried to hit on Iuz's "iconic" abilities. His greatsword, strangling grasp, cloak, horrific visage, and spittle were mentioned in ToEE. The cloak is based on an Amulet of Double Fortune. "Shadow Step" and "Finger of Death" are nods to Iuz's Assassin abilities. "Unkindness of Ravens" was inspired from From the Ashes, which says Iuz can "summon vast storms of ferocious ravens and bony bat-like magical creatures from the Outer Planes." I'm not sure what the "bony bat-like" creatures could be, but I'd like to stat that up. And "Gnarled Staff" and "Gaze of the Old One" are powers I just made up because I thought they would be cool.

Again, it's quite a lot, and I'm not sure how often some of those powers would show up (particularly "Strangling Grasp"). I'm also not so sure at-will shifting between forms will be cool or not. If anyone happens to play out a fight with this write-up, let me know.

Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:21 am

Coool! His demonic form looks a bit vanilla but I don't know how that would play out - I think a critical hit power acknowledging that the sword is magical might add to the danger. It makes sense for his melee powers to be largely demon form and his ranged powers to be largely mannikin form with a recharge power or encounter power or bloodied power usable in either form.

My pcs are a bit low for a fight with Iuz and his demon host but I'd be really interested to see how a fight plays out! Maybe we need General Sindol and a sample force from the Legion of Black Death to round out the Old One.

Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:57 pm

I really like the "Unkindness of Ravens," "Gaze of the Old One," and "Shadow Step" abilities. Very flavorful.

Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:30 pm

Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:35 pm Re: Iuz in 4e

Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:19 am

It's true, even if it is a bit confusing. In 4e, demons are corrupted elementals and the Abyss exists within the elemental tempest. I think its origin relates to it being corrupted by Tharizdun or the Far Realm or something during the time of the Primoridials.

Graz'zt was indeed a devil who for some reason that escapes me now, was sent to the Abyss where the rot set in and turned him into a demon. This was deemed necessary within the 4e mythos because demons are now monstrous while devils tend to be more humanoid. Succubi have been drafted into the ranks of devils now and erinyes have been transformed from their mythological roots into armoured warrior demons. However, there's no reason why you need to accept any of the fluff from 4e. Although I much prefer 4e cosmology with the Feywild and Shadowfell, I generally stick to the existing fluff for monsters. Elves and gnomes as fey creatures makes oerfect sense to me but only the Hool Hlaflings fit the 4e fluff; the rest of my halflings are the pudgy, pie-eating variety reminscent of Lord of the Rings.

Since Iuz father is a demon and he has a soul object hidden in the Abyss I think the elemental and demon sub-types makes sense.

Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:48 pm

I'm not referring to 4E fluff; I could really care less about their versions of stuff. (A side note, I like 4E mostly because of the mechanics).

I honstly want to know when Graz'zt was changed from a devil to a demon. What edition? Like I said, he was first introduced in"The Lost Caverns of Tsojanth," which, by the way, was printed in 1982 and written by EGG himself -- and it lists him as a Demon Prince, in the second booklet, under the New Monsters session.

Now, I realize that he was written up later, in the 4E version of the "Manual of the Planes," which claims he was once an Archdevil.

Now, I know that "official" D&D sources should be considered canon. However, since there isn't any official Greyhawk stuff for 4E, I don't really consider anything in 4E "canon" for Greyhawk.

So, I ask again. I would just like to clear this up. Graz'zt was "originally a devil" because WotC 4E says so, or because he was actually written that way at one point?

Please, please clarify. Thanks.
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Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:33 am

He was introduced in the Gord books as the most powerful member of a race of demons (sort of eight-fingered tall drow) called the abbat-dolor. They all looked like Graz'zt and were more civilised than your average demon and they were the patrons of the Oerthly drow before Lolth came in and stole that role (she does have a cameo in the books but is not strongly tied to the drow). When the Lost Caverns came out there was no mention of his race in his description.

He's always been a demon who is more civilised than other demons i.e. CE with NE tendencies in 1e. I think it was this that led them to determine that he was once a devil in 4e. It changes nothing about his personality but might explain why he could still frequent with succubi (who are now devils).

The abbat-dolor have never made it into any version of official DnD as far as I am aware so as far as 'official' sources go, they've never said he wasn't originally a devil (and this could have been in a time before men and elves existed). As such you can include it or not at your discretion.

Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:52 pm

Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:01 pm

I thought I read in the World of Greyhawk book, the one that comes in the boxed set, that Iuz is a half-fiend. Wouldn't that make one of his parents a fiend rather than a devil or demon? Maybe the mysteries of chaos just confuse me.

Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:21 pm

Iuz is a Cambion demon(a semi-demon, or half-demon basically). His father is the demon lord Graz'zt; his mother the infamous witch Iggwilv. As cambions go, Iuz is a real over achiever. Laughing

Graz'zt may have been reclassified as a devil in 4E though.
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Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:30 am

Grazz'zt is still a demon, just a devil who was corrupted by the Abyss so that he became a demon. Maybe this means that demonic succubi are back on the menu too...

Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:49 am

OK, I understand. Maybe I'm taking that classification too seriously by inserting it into 4E terms.

Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:13 am

In second and third editions, devils and demons are both types of fiends, which was a general term for evil supernatural beings from other planes. Has this changed?

I don't think "fiend" had a specific definition in 1st edition, although the pit fiend was (and remains) a kind of devil.

Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:50 pm

Just a quick glance through MM1 and MM2 I reread the entries on Demons and Devils. No Fiend entries in these two books.

Basically 4E, at least as far as Points of Light is concerned, regards Demons as evil entities that care for nothing but destruction and will let themselves be destroyed in order to cause more destruction; as they are reborn in the Abyss and will continue their rampage again.

Devils are the other hand are more insidious, often working with evil gods and mortals to bring about the capture of more souls for the Abyss. Devils in 4E seem to be all about getting more and more souls for the Abyss. Often going after the followers of Good gods ect.

That's why I was seperating the them all into different "categories" as WotC has done so in 4E.

Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:04 am

4th edition demons sometimes tempt and capture mortal souls, too - for example, the quasit in Monster Manual 3.

I aware that 4th edition has strived to make demons and devils more different from one another than they were in earlier editions, but I assume that if "fiend" means anything in 4th edition, it still means both demons and devils.

Iuz is a cambion. In 4th edition, cambions are presented as half-devils, but Iuz is the son of Graz'zt.

Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:35 am

Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:44 am

Graz'zt has been retconned as a former devil who was corrupted by the Abyss to become a demon. Article on WotC today has now retconned incubi to be the corrupted (formerly devilish, now demonic) succubi that occupy his court.

Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:34 am

Iuz should be a Solo.

Reason? The semi-legendary Carl Sergeant wrote in one of his Iuz supplements (I think "Iuz the Evil" but as it's in storage I cannot check): don't allow Iuz to be killed too quickly or easily. He is the primary face of evil on Oerth. If he dies then Greyhawk loses its villian. (Paraphrased).

When I read this ages ago I felt he was on to something. In fact, thinking about villians in this manner changed the way I think about campaigns and stories in general. But that's for another thread I suppose. To make the point more clearly - Iuz shouldn't be an Elite simply because as a villian he's too important to the setting itself to be anything short of a final goal in a campaign.

When making Iuz I'd make him a Solo that can change forms from an Old Man to a giant, beastly Cambion. Read MM3 entry for Lolth to get a good understanding on how to make such a monster. As "Iuz the Old" he'd be a Controller who focused on ranged attacks and deception. Once that form is defeated he'd change into a Cambion Brute with a +5 Vicious Fullblade, wading through PCs with a barrage of blade attacks only to strangle the survivor.

Having said this, the Greater Boneheart would be chalk full of Elites for the characters to hunt down. That's the kind of stuff legendary campaigns are made of...

Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:10 pm

Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:29 am

Iuz has a soul object, which was intended to keep him alive in 1e even if pesky adventurers 'killed' him. No reason why that can't be used in 4e to frustrate the players even if he is elite. However, I also think his twin forms would make a great two-stage battle as a solo. I'm still not sure what Iuz would be doing without a load of demons and Boneheart members for company though.