So this thread - http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4394 - got me thinking about cosmology, and I went back and read the appropriate sections in the WoG Gazetteer and LGG. As often happens in rereading GH materials I stumbled on a throwaway line that has piqued my interest. In the LGG it says -
"...certain that Oerik is the greatest of Oerth's four continents, and that four great oceans surround these lands, as do four layers of the heavens and four depths of the underworld." (emphasis mine)
Huh? What are these four layers of the heavens and four depths of the underworld? A couple of paragraphs later there is reference that seems to be tying the underworld to the Underdark but that link could be debated. Thoughts?
The works of the outerplanes, heavens and hells always felt a bit akward to me, so I was cotenplating if I should divide the outer planes into the following: Each having 3 layers, Purgatory being sort of a no-mans land.
The Heavens: - LG | NG | CG
Purgatory: - LN | N | CN
The Hells: - LE | NE | CE
I like things a little bit more ordered and I believe that less is more. Hey at this stage it is just an idea.
But I would never make the Underdark part of the Underworld, you might find a portal or a conduit that will lead from the Underdark to the Underworld.
Nice. I like your idea. Working off that you could come up with 4 Heavens and 4 Underworlds by adding a material component to each, a material heaven=the atmosphere and space around the Oerth, and a material underworld=Underdark.
Overheard in an inn of no mean repute as one fairly gregarious sage was feeling the effects of his cups.
"Hmm, since the discussion topic is of a divine or philosophical bent, then perhaps all things in existence have an Externium (that which is without) and the Internis (that which is within). It is the point of a learned person's view as to where the barrier between the two is, perhaps the skin of an apple, undeath between life and death, the perceivable gray barrier separating light and dark. Such details have been argued by long beards, elves and dwarves for decades.
It is at these confabulations that new items, creatures or concepts are brought to be discussed, dissected, defined and dictated into the 'Infinite Pale'. A legendary tome kept in a singular tower of no particular note, until you are allowed entrance as I was and learn of the numerous layers of passages beneath that house this ever increasing collection of notes, scrolls, codices and treatise. Of course, those items, creatures and concepts are there as well, for what good would it to be without an example within?"
Thus began the adventure later termed, "The quest to divest us of our coins and magic" by the Unknown Bard.
My idea was that the four layers of the heavens and depths of the underworlds represented the four stages of death in ancient lore, and are thus constant across all outer planes.
This summary ignores the existence of neutral planes, of course, as well as the law/chaos dichotomy, but I assume it's a simplification by mortal sages. Most mortals haven't devised good words for the afterlife beyond metaphorical terms like heavens and underworlds, and these terms suit most religions more than adequately for their simple needs. In reality, a soul may find paths to the Outer Planes in places other than the sky or the depths beneath the stony earth (the Moonarch of Sehanine is one of the best-known of these, but astral conduits might also be found on the peaks of sacred mountains, in the depths of the sea, or practically anywhere else). There isn't merely Heaven and the Underworld, but also Chaos, Order, and the places between. But for our purposes here, we'll use the terms established by the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.
Note also that a "heaven" isn't necessarily good and an "underworld" isn't necessarily bad. The dwarven and gnomish afterlives may be composed exclusively of "underworlds," and worshipers of Beory may think fondly of the underworld as the womb of Beory where one waits for rebirth, while the realms of Hextor, Erythnul, and Kurell may be thought of as "heavens" by their faithful.
Something like:
1. The soul's departure. This is when the soul physically leaves the body and wanders in search of the appropriate astral conduit. Thus, the first layer of the heavens and the first depth of the underworld is the Material Plane, though largely invisible to most mortals' eyes. If the soul is heading for the heavens, it flies into the skies searching for a gate among the constellations, or it may descend into the Underdark searching for a gate among the shadow and gloom. Souls mostly leave their mortal free will behind with their corpses and act on instinct here, following where the cosmic threads that bind the multiverse urge them rather than where they might, as living beings, rationally have preferred.
The realm of ghosts (created when a soul's oerthly passions are greater than the lure of the further heights or depths) and other undead is also part of this layer and depth, which means it also encompasses the Ethereal borderlands, the Plane of Shadow, and the Negative Energy Plane. It's everything between the physical death of the body and the soul's departure into the Astral.
2. The soul's flight. This is the journey across the Astral Plane, when the soul journeys through a cosmic tunnel (often resembling a tunnel of light or a tunnel of darkness).
3. The soul's judgment. The soul ends up before one of the gods, or some other cosmic being, to have its oerthly deeds finally weighed. The judge may be one of the nalfeshnee Judges of Woe in the Abyss, or a powerful angel, or a night hag, or a styx devil, or Celestian, Allitur, Nerull, Istus, Mictlantecuhtli, or Wee Jas (among others). This layer of the heavens (or depth of the underworld) often manifests itself as a courtroom. Here, the soul's final destination is decided. The judgment is not necessarily just or perfect, for cosmic beings are often fallible. The soul may end up, at this point, shipped from the underworld to the heavens or vice versa. It may be sent to a particular god (who may dwell on the Material Plane), layer of the Abyss, paradise, or circle of Hell. It may even be sent back to the Material Plane to be reincarnated.
If no one judges the soul, the soul will eventually find some sort of destiny on its own (that is, it judges itself, fate and instinct guiding it to wherever it can best function, although this still may not be perfect or just). The systems of soul-processing that have grown up over the eons are matters of convenience for the beings who rule the planes, not fundamental laws of nature.
4. The soul's destiny. This is the final layer of heaven and the final depth of the underworld. It's where the soul is meant to spend the rest of its existence as an individual before it merges with its deity, is eaten by a hordling, incubates a slaad, becomes one with the glory of the plane, or vanishes into mystery. This layer may be an otherworldly farm where the soul of a peasant lives an existence much like that it left behind, a marketplace where the soul of a merchant bargains with otherworldly beings for the glory of Zilchus, a choir where it endlessly chants praises to its divine patron, a short moment of horror as cannon fodder in the Blood War, or it might be thousands of years as a celestial or infernal being, slowly climbing up the ranks. Regardless, there is nothing after this that mortal sages are privy to. If the soul is not destroyed or transformed into another sort of being (a fiend, celestial, or divine proxy), it may still be recalled to the mortal plane through the agency of a raise dead, resurrection, reincarnate, miracle, or wish, which may start the cycle over.
Last edited by rasgon on Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
How is everyone else dealing with the Outerplanes? Is it complex or kept simple?
That depends.
Most mortals know generally that there are supposed to be four depths in the underworld and four heights in the heavens, and more specifically they know what their own religious beliefs promise them based on their mortal deeds (for example, they know if they obey the laws of their church they will end up as part of Hextor's glorious armies in the heavens, with "heavens" here meant in the broad sense, and if they disobey them Hextor will give them over to his allies in the Hells). Other than that, they know little of the structure of the planes or the fate of those who follow other religions.
Unless the PCs actually travel to the afterlife and back, there's little reason to clutter up your campaign with more than that.
If they do go on planar adventures, though, I certainly wouldn't want to do without the extensive and often brilliant work people (both professional game designers and fans) have done in fleshing them out over the past 30-odd years, and that means that yes, I accept the general AD&D planar set-up as "fact," with the caveat that the planes are to a large degree mysterious and unknowable, and that mortals are only witnessing the aspects their limited minds can comprehend. So the "true" nature of any given planar domain may be very different from how matters appear, and two travelers may look at the same location and see completely different things. The wheel-shape of the outer planes is an interpretation based on the way the best-known planar portals fit together, and it isn't necessarily less valid to see them as a cube, a tree, a sandwich, or a four-sided die. Sages of Oerth count sixteen planes on this wheel (as well as another plane in its "hub") possibly for the simple reason that there are twelve lairs in Oerth's zodiac, plus four stars representing the festival weeks, and thus their interpretation of the "heavens" mirrors the structure of Oerth's physical heavens.
This belief may be based on one testable fact: the astral conduit that a soul travels through on the way to the afterlife may correspond to one of these zodiac signs or stars, which is tied to a particular plane of alignment (with the pole star tied to the plane of neutrality). So the invisible cosmic tunnels that bind Oerth's physical heavens to its afterlife may reinforce the notion that there are seventeen outer planes. Those who come from other worlds, with other heavens, may see the planes in entirely different ways and be just as correct (on Krynn they have three moons and believe in three outer planes; Eberron has thirteen moons and thirteen outer planes).
The ancient Oeridians and Baklunish believed the dead lived among the stars, and the ancient Suloise and Flan believed the dead traveled to various underworlds, and modern faiths generally believe some combination of the two. Sages have gleaned more specific information from records left by planar explorers, and thus have more sophisticated theories about how the realms visited by these explorers fit together, which possibly say more about Oerth than they do about the planes.
What do the PCs need to know? That depends on how much time they spend on other planes. It may be enough to know that they're somewhere in the "heavens." They may instead want to know how the Heaven of Hextor relates to the Heaven of Heironeous, since they're clearly different places (as an Oeridian-derived faith, I can't see Hextorism referring to their god's domain as an "underworld"). DarkHerald's simple system of heavens, hells, and purgatories may also adequately suit the players' needs. They may instead want to know that there's a plane called Acheron and a plane called Celestia, and they may want to know that sages believe these planes are part of a system of seventeen planes associated in some way with the stars and constellations. Or they may not care.
Regardless, I like that there are varying levels of detail available, from the simple faith of the common folk to the esoteric ramblings found in Mordenkainen's and Drawmij's notes, complete with complicated charts showing how a given layer of the Abyss may grow closer to the Material Plane on certain dates (which is an important plot point in Return of the Eight), or how the Paraelemental Plane of Ice draws more distant during the spring, or how a portal in Arcadia opens to the City of Doors once every five years and a vortex leading to the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze opens near Baltron's Beacon every three months. The detail is there if you need it, and very ignorable if you don't.
"...certain that Oerik is the greatest of Oerth's four continents, and that four great oceans surround these lands, as do four layers of the heavens and four depths of the underworld." (emphasis mine)
Huh? What are these four layers of the heavens and four depths of the underworld? A couple of paragraphs later there is reference that seems to be tying the underworld to the Underdark but that link could be debated. Thoughts?
Call me unimaginative but I interpret this to refer to 1) the troposphere, stratosphere, "space" (inside the Ort cloud or solar system) and deep or interstellar space and 2) the crust, mantle, liquid outer core and solid inner core. _________________ GVD
Not much to contribute here except to say that my campaigns have never strayed off the Prime Material except for brief forays into the Ethereal Plane and demi-planes.
Perhaps because of that, I'm partial to GVD's more literal interpretation.
Call me unimaginative but I interpret this to refer to 1) the troposphere, stratosphere, "space" (inside the Ort cloud or solar system) and deep or interstellar space and 2) the crust, mantle, liquid outer core and solid inner core.
I'd always interpreted the references as some kind of afterworld model in the faiths of the Flanaess, but...
Now that you say it, I think you're on the right track. In the context of the quote, the book is clearly speaking of Oerth's physical features everywhere else in that paragraph. So it makes sense to assume the underworlds and heavens are physical characteristics of the world and its surroundings as well.
The Forgotten Realms supplement Underdark describes three depths of the world below: the upperdark, middledark, and lowerdark. The Pathfinder campaign setting divides its Darklands in a similar fashion. A fourth depth could be the Hollow Oerth that is implied to exist in A Guide to the World of Greyhawk's description of the Land of Black Ice. If you don't like the idea of a hollow Oerth, I suppose you could resort to a depth full of lava (which we know exists because of Return to White Plume Mountain; however, it seems likely that Oerthly sages wouldn't be much interested in the distinctive layers of the inhospitable core, if Oerth even has a distinction between core and mantle, so I'd be happy to assume that doesn't count).
Of course, Spelljammer fans know that the physical heavens are "properly" divided into 1) the atmosphere, 2) Wildspace, 3) the crystal sphere, and 4) the Phlogiston.
Well for mine I will use the Manual of the Planes book simply because I like that old stuff. I like it's history. However one cool thing I liked for the Pathfinder Gamemastery guide was they have one major plane for each alignment. There are various names within each one to signify differences in cultures or even past editions. Something to look at.
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