Inspired by something Mortellan said elsewhere, what would you change about the official Greyhawk setting if you had a time machine and influence with the designers?
Or, perhaps more usefully, what have you changed about it in your own campaigns?
Have you changed the ancient history of the setting? The recent history of the setting? The political dynamics? The NPCs? I know most of you have, so this is a pretty broad topic. But whatever, it should hopefully get a conversation going.
I changed the cycle of moons giving Celene a 52 day cycle.
4th of Richfest - Full
4th of Brewfest - Waning
4th of Needfest - New
4th of Growfest - Waxing
The 4th of Needfest is known as 'The Dark Times' when both moons are new. The barriers between planes weakest with the undead being stonger.
The 4th of Richfest is when both moons are full and all werecreatures are stongest. This makes it much harder for those druids to collect that wild mistletoe under the moons.
Mid-summer night when both moons are full provide increased power and strength to were-creatures, no matter which moon they are affected by.
Druids who want the most potent mistletoe brave the wilds with their golden sickles, going deep into secluded woods during the peak of midsummer night. These wooded locations are also prime places for the more aggressive were-creatures to live, making the druid's goal just that much more difficult.
I'd make the Sea of Dust a natural rain shadow desert. That is, unless the weather systems work differently than I recall. Need to check up on rainfall and prevailing winds, as well as the altitude of the Hellfurnaces.
The old Suel made the desert bloom with their magic and technology. They had underground canals like the Persian qanats or the Nazca puquios. When the Rain of Colorless Fire destroyed the Suel Imperium, it took out all the engineers, maintenance crews, etc that kept the system running. The canals silted up and ran dry, or else other factors caused them to mostly cease functioning. Some may still work, creating lines of green in the dusty plains.
I might rename some of the U countries.
I'd definitely add more small states around the fringes of the map.
I wish I could have been standing at the trash bin with chloroform for LW when she tossed out the contents of Gary's office at TSR. Once she was sleeping peacefully, I would have scarpered off with the now-lost treasures to return them to Mr. Gygax to share with the world in whatever form he saw fit - most especially for the ms for Wasp's Nest - The City of Stoink.
(Now that would have been a hide in shadows roll to be proud of... and I'm the guy who historically plays paladins most often too.)
_________________ <div>Braggi, Swain and Varlet at Large<br /></div>
If I could travel back in time repeatedly, I would make a stop off first at 1997 to buy up some of the Dragonlance Saga crap. I would then wait till Lorraine left her house of a morning before her "promotion" and pelt her with them unmercifully.
Next stop after that, Skywalker Ranch. I'd have a DVD player and three DVDs to drop off. Not to mention a gym sock full of quarters.
Next stop after that, Skywalker Ranch. I'd have a DVD player and three DVDs to drop off. Not to mention a gym sock full of quarters.
Now don't get off topic there cp!
As for me, with the Wayback and the influence I'd have liked to talk Gary and co. into continuing their "Events of the Flanaess" articles in Dragon Magazine. I'd also have pulled strings to see that Ivid the Undying got published. Id also beg or even submit that more Greyhawk deity articles be done in the 1e/2e era. Oh yes, and I'd leave a memo in the TSR offices for them to not change any of the countries that start with a "U".
- Erase all occurrences of sci-fi/mechanical things like the ones in the Barrier Peaks.
- Block publishing of Castle Greyhawk pun module brrr.
- I would have really liked to see Castle Greyhawk original, COMPLETE version as Gygax intended it.
- Somehow manage to save Sargent from whatever accident had him stop publishing material.
The Archclericy of Veluna would have worshiped St. Cuthbert.
The Flight of Fiends and the exile of Iuz to the demi-plane of dread would have actually caused chaos and revolt in most of the conquered lands of Iuz's bloated empire.
Tenser would have stayed dead.
The Scarlet Brotherhood would have derived martial arts from Baklunish yogic arts (not via a gate to Kara Tur). Heh.
The Mage of the Vale would be much cooler. Maybe even a demi-urge or something.
There would be more legends (of legendary figures like quasi-deities, bearers of artifacts, lost expeditions to strange places, etc.) woven into background material.
Oh yes, and I'd leave a memo in the TSR offices for them to not change any of the countries that start with a "U".
Oh, Ull would be left alone, in CMHawk.
The Ulek states and the two Urnsts are what I had in mind.
Yes, I'm aware of the real world precedents; Upper and Lower Egypt as seperate kingdoms, East and West Germany, North and South Korea, modern Greek province of Macedonia and FYR of Macedonia, etc.
I just think three Uleks is a bit much. Remove that and I'm fine with two Urnsts nearby.
:)
Edit- Although maybe talking about Upper, Middle, and Lower Ulek would make sense? These geographic terms might be used in conjuction with the political labels of county, duchy, and principality.
First off, I would have to make my favorite bad guy older. In my games Ivid the Undying is like in his 80's and is known to have killed off his own children because he didn't want some upstart trying to assume the thrown in the traditional Rauxes fashion.
Secondly, I would have created more stuff detailing different sects of Pholtian worshippers, creating different paths based on different intrepretations of the same ideas.
I would have kept Queen of the Demonweb Pits as it was except for the stupid spider mech. I mean come on seriously? Space ships, laser guns and six shooters I can dig but a mech? Why?
Actually no, I woulda kept it but not in that moduel, I would have put it in CG where all the other goofy stuff belongs.
I would leave it in the module, but as a magical/demonically possessed spider construct(going so far as to make it a blend of massive construct and demon) rather than a fully mechanical spider ship using technology that doesn't jive with my idea of a medieval fantasy setting. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
- Erase all occurrences of sci-fi/mechanical things like the ones in the Barrier Peaks.
- Block publishing of Castle Greyhawk pun module brrr.
- I would have really liked to see Castle Greyhawk original, COMPLETE version as Gygax intended it.
- Somehow manage to save Sargent from whatever accident had him stop publishing material.
I dunno... looks like your first and third entries are self-contradictory.
I like all the weird science fiction stuff in GH. Its not as if its prevalent across the whole setting. If you observe GH from the adventurer's point of view a science fiction adventure (man vs. alien technology) is horrifying.
I like all the weird science fiction stuff in GH. Its not as if its prevalent across the whole setting. If you observe GH from the adventurer's point of view a science fiction adventure (man vs. alien technology) is horrifying.
I concur.
The stuff like the starship section in the Barrier Peaks is rare, quirky, and fun. I like it.
1) Make Olidammara one of The Nine. It says as much right there in the ’83 box. Even though he was no longer technically a demigod once the setting was published, I’ve never understood why everyone ignores this obvious reference and bothers to brainstorm nine other gods. If the Godtrap can raise Iuz and Zagig to demigodhood, it can boost Olidammara from demi to intermediate. (Besides Olidammara, I don’t use any of the other Nine from the original campaign or the Olman gods from Mona’s campaign; neither do I subscribe to the “opposing alignment” theory from 3E.)
2) Keep 591CY dark and ominous. The Wars box wasn’t a homerun in itself, but I really liked what Sargent did with it. Unfortunately, because Wars was unpopular, The Adventure Begins threw the baby out with the bathwater and dealt too many blows to Iuz and the especially the SB. Dark times, suspicious villagers, and good nations beset on all sides by monsters, cultists, and undead princes are what fantasy is all about. And besides, what’s better than telling new players “oh yeah, all of the equipment in the players handbook costs 120% and no, there aren’t any horses or plate armor for sale.” I like the Adventure Begins, but for my taste the FtA map contains the perfect ratio of good to evil.
3) Limit player interaction with Mordenkainen (and other powerful NPCs). The 98 revival and 3E used him far too much. Mordenkainen isn’t Elminster. Players can deal with agents and intermediaries on the rare occasions mega-level NPC’s make their presence known.
4) Put Big T back in the SB. I just about threw The Scarlet Brotherhood supplement in the garbage when Mr. Reynolds undid this connection. Just a rumor?!? Why turn the most secretive and well-organized evil empire in the Flanaess into a boring LE society with no diabolical schemes? Why undo the groundwork of both Gygax and Sargent without adding to it or offering a better idea? Fortunately the LGG fix from the obscure I1 reference works well.
1) Make Olidammara one of The Nine. It says as much right there in the ’83 box.
By the same reasoning, though, Fraz-Urb'luu was one of the Nine (as well as any other entities imprisoned in various parts of Zagyg's vast dungeon). It's very possible that Zagyg captured deities and other entities beyond Iuz and his eight friends. The particular form of Olidammara's prison (a carapaced animal) seems distinctive and extraordinary, unless all nine deities were transformed into armadillos.
I like the story in SKR's Dragon article on Olidammara, that Olidammara was captured by Zagyg while trying to rescue his protege Rudd from the prison she shared with Iuz and the rest.
I share your distaste for putting Olman deities in there, though. They seem too off-Greyhawk.
I realize I'm using a double standard with my inclusion of Olidammara but not the rest of the OC Nine or Fraz-Urb'luu.
Neither Olidammara or Fraz-Urb'luu fit the criteria of "demigod" but vague canon sources indicate both may have been one of the Nine. In this case, I'm comfortable turning to the OC material for clarification - Olidammara was, Fraz-Urb'luu wasn't (imprisoned somewhere else in the dungeon).
Thanks for the mentioning the Olidammara article; my lore from the 3E years is sorely lacking. What issue was that in?
My best friends Uncle played D&D late 70's early 80's .Some how he talked his wife into letting him use a Den wall to make the huge topographical map. He had two castles he made that you could take apart(walk thru) (i wounder now if he has that stuff left)
I had a crush on D&D right there ,right then.
I begged my mother to get me a early birthday gift ,it was the Greyhalk box set. I love the details on all these countries ,free-states, lands.ect
I'd only change is more details !!! Funny thing is even my fiends i played HS. football with ,when parting in my bedroom LOVED the map on my wall and the book that went with it . I saw a Middle-earth map encyclopedia ,i was like "thats what we need for Greyhawk!!!
I would probably tell the Spelljammer designers to not take literally the blurb in the 83 box about Oerth being the center of the universe, & to make Greyspace Heliocentric.
Well, my knowledge of anything GH Wars and after is based primarily on what I've read here, and things I've been told in the Thursday chat nights. (Yes, that's a bit of a plug for chat night) So please bear with me if there are flaws in that area.
I think the first cage I'd make is n how the GH Wars ended. Iuz would not have held onto the lands he conquered so quickly in his blitzkrieg across the central Flanaess. Lands such as the Horned Society and Bandit Kingdoms are areas where people tend to travel armed, and are at least passably skilled in the use of the weapons they carry, as I see it. They would have put up a fight. Sure, Iuz had help out of the Abyss, but the Horned Society should have countered with aid from the Nine Hells (or Baator as it was called in 2nd edition).
So, like the real world blitzkrieg of the 1940s, Iuz's army would have had strong initial successes, but eventually the combined effort of other nations uniting against them would force them back.
To the south, I don't think the Scarlet Brotherhood would have made the big bold naval conquest that they did. rather, i think they'd have stepped up their infiltration of nations, taking advantage of the chaos of wartime to plant more agents into high level positions in the other governments. Considering the secretive and suspicious nature of the Brotherhood, I think they'd want to be absolutely 100% sure they had control of the major bits of a nation's infrastructure and governing body before letting it be known to the general public, who is really in charge. I see the SB as being run by individuals who take the long term approach to things. They are willing to "conquer" a nation so slowly, people don't even realize it until it's far too late to do anything about it. So, from the GH Wars, it may be decades before the SB wold be ready to come out in the open about a takeover of another nation.
The breaking up of the Great Kingdom would have been more of a breakup in my opinion. South Province still becomes the Kingdom of Ahlissa, and North Province still renames itself to Northern Aerdy, but the area in between (which I admittedly know little about), I would like to see a bit more action there. I imagine almost anyone with a title and an army to back it up, would be trying to establish their own little "Great Kingdom" on the rubble of the old one.
In a more general sense of things I'd change, I would have liked to have seen more supplements adding detail to specific regions, including maps with greater detail that the 'whole Flanaess' map could provide.
I'm sure there's other things, but that's all I can think of right now.
Since my last post on this thread, I've read a few things that claim the Greyhawk Wars were an attempt to recreate Gygax's Greyhawk, making it over in TSR's image. Talk about residual "bad feelings."
They invented the Greyhawk Wars to get rid of EGG's "influence," and then promptly abandoned the setting of Greyhawk for that of Faerun. Since Greyhawk was their property they were free to abandon it for Faerun, but it occurs to me that "messing" with the setting before abandoning it was just spite and completely unnecessary.
I'd love to "hear" more of this "story" from someone who might know.
I think they just didn't know what to do with Greyhawk or how to differentiate it from the Forgotten Realms, which they had been publishing for five years (arguably longer, counting magazine articles and retconned modules) by the time From the Ashes was published. Greyhawk had kind of slumped along since Gary Gygax left the company, with most of TSR's attempts at supporting it mediocre. They (the idea was initiated by Jeff Grubb, apparently) decided a shake-up and a change in direction would help, and they were right to some degree; the From the Ashes era wasn't perfect by any means, but it was much stronger (as game sourcebooks, not financially) than the Greyhawk line had been for quite a while.
It wasn't really an "attempt to make Gygax's Greyhawk over in TSR's image." Any attempt to support the setting after Gygax left the country inevitably distanced it from Gary Gygax's own vision, though. TSR's management seems to have been legitimately crazy at the time, dispatching spies to investigate Gary Gygax's Mythus demos at Gen Con and other mad exploits, but the designers were mostly left alone (especially Carl Sargent, who was freelance) and don't seem to have been motivated by any particular animosity toward the man who had co-created the game. You'll find a lot of unsupported conspiracy theories on the internet, but if there's no evidence for them apart from "that sounds like the sort of thing they would do," you're ill-advised to take them at face value. The same applies to half-baked theories that WG7 was a result of "spite."
A war and a few wrecked countries didn't rid Greyhawk of its creator's influence any more than Terminator III rid the Terminator series of James Cameron's (or Harlan Ellison's) influence. It's still a setting where almost every major element is Gygax's creation.
TSR might have been crazy and terrible at business, but they weren't going to invest all the money involved in producing two boxed sets (WARS and From the Ashes) and a number of supplements and modules out of "spite." The Greyhawk Wars were a last-ditch effort to make Greyhawk financially viable, which it hadn't been for a while, and which it continued not to be. So the line was cancelled and revived five years later when WotC marketed it with a far more successful nostalgia-based campaign. The 1998-2000 Greyhawk line sold very well with its "Back to the Dungeon" theme, which suggests that rebooting the setting was a terrible idea financially. But it wasn't done out of spite.
They (the idea was initiated by Jeff Grubb, apparently) decided a shake-up and a change in direction would help...
TSR might have been crazy and terrible at business, but they weren't going to invest all the money involved in producing two boxed sets (WARS and From the Ashes) and a number of supplements and modules out of "spite."
I've heard similar reports about Jeff Grubb's "let's blow it up!" suggestion and agree that a last-ditch effort to revitalize the campaign is a much more logical motivation than spite. Wars also fits the prevailing mood in the hobby industry at that time, with companies making massive changes to their product lines to spark consumer interest. DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths mini-series in the late Eighties comes to mind, as do the "shocking" and short-lived deaths of Superman and many other comic heroes in the early Nineties.
All my years truck driving left me out of touch with the game and the industry, so I only know what I "hear/read," so thanks for some clarification.
I remember all that "death of Superman" nonsense -- only to bring him back.
I believe a large part of Faerun's success is link to the many novels supporting the setting. So, to a certain degree, I blame the Rose Estes "mess." Not that it was deliberate mind you, she just wasn't the person to take on the project. _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
- Iuz is much, much older than "official" sources state - I based his backstory on info from the WoG boxed set, which states he has lived ages longer than any man can, and has ruled for centuries.
- Vecna is also in a much more remote past, more like 2000-3000 years prior (IMC his fall is what Flan calendar dates from).
- Lots of changes to names and general linguistics; I've actually got an essay building on this I might submit one day.
- Too much to detail, but my campaign's history is much different from canon, mostly because I developed it before FtA, Adventure Begins, Ivid the Undying, etc. were released. So history of Furyondy, Nyrond, Aerdy especially are different. Also an article I might submit someday.
THese are some of the ideas I've kicked around in the various abortive campaigns I've worked on over the years....
- the Mage of the Valley is MUCH more powerful, and much more secretive. I had him as a challenge to Iuz for the role of Big Evil on Oerth
- none of the events of Greyhawk wars and beyond happened. I HATED the animii...
- the Circle of Eight didn't really exist. Yes, there still were the uber-mages likes Mordie, Tenser and others, but they tended to not really associate with each other. They all had their own secret machinations.
- City of Greyhawk was a much darker place than it was in the CoG boxed set. I had worked in some of the Gord books background, to make Greyhawk not such a magic-happy, bright shiny place.
- Scarlet Brotherhood were much more long term in their planning, as many have mentioned. I saw them as evil shaolin monks, completely inscrutable to everyone around them.
- Horned Society were completely evil, debauched, decadent devil worshippers. They were the boogiemen you scared you children with stories about at night.
Currently I have the Marquess ruling Sterich in 580. Why? Basically because I screwed up and introduced the basic info on Sterich's ruler on the campaign website to the players before I decided what year I wanted the campaign taking place in. So now I'm stuck with a march instead of an earldom, and a marquess instead of an earl. Not that the players, who have no GH background, will wonder for quite some time, but I'm basically saying that the hill giant raids of the mid 570's weren't stopped by adventurers, but by the Earl and his forces in by which time they had gotten very bad. It was at that time that King Kimbertos granted the eardom march status. In late 577 Querchard died in battle against the frost giants, having traced them to their lair at the headwaters of the Davish River. In the intervening years, Sterich has fragmented and become chaotic, with its nobility jockeying for position and flaunting the diminished power of the Marquess, who most consider a meddling, doomed foreigner.
I have merged Grey and High Elves into High Elves. Wood elves are the same, and a bizarre offshoot are the Valley Elves. Wild Elves are CN and a tad nasty.
Mountain dwarves and hill dwarves are all just mountain dwarves with varying degrees of tolerance for outsiders.
Anything sci-fi like is completely deleted.
There are no firearms whatsoever - Murylund's paladins use repeating crossbows.
The Pale is firmly LN and the leading element of the LN Pholtan faith.
I have integrated and created a history for unarmed combat arts more firmly into Greyhawk. Spread it a little further from its SB and Baklunish roots.
Scant hasn't been blow to smithereens but is being re-built.
I have integrated a history in Greyhawk of Sorcerers and Witches (2 classes I use in addition to Wizards).
I have altered the domains and favoured weapons of some of the deities.
I had King Hazendel of Sunndi as a half elf.
Some of the Heirarchs from the Horned Society are still around a plot against Iuz.
I've been playing/DMing the world of Greyhawk since I acquired the '83 WoG boxed set in about '84. It has always been my favorite to the point that I just don't like any other world.
These are the personal changes I've made when I DM the WoG campaign setting:
1) No Sci-Fi, especially psionics! Psionics belong in a futuristic, sci-fi genre, not in a medieval fantasy genre.
2) Two-handed weapons and crossbows generally do twice as much damage as their single-handed counterparts. (Just from experience, it became obvious that no player would use a crossbow when a bow would do four times as much damage or a 2-handed sword when it only averaged one (1) more hit point worth of damage per hit than a longsword. )
3) Mordenkainen is really a douche-bag. Being True Neutral means that he works against the ascendancy of Good as diligently as he works against the ascendancy of Evil in the Flanness. My players begin believing he is one of the great Good Guys, but as their power increases, they begin to clash with him more and more until, like Tenser, they see him as an obstacle to their goals instead of the role-model they originally esteemed him to be.
4) Kara-Tur is right out. The Scarlet Brotherhood's martial traditions are derived from ancient Suel learning. In fact, much of the changes from Fate of Istus are simply ignored.
5) I incorporate the idea that the Mayor of Irongate is secretly a Gold Dragon (credit to Maldin's Greyhawk, I believe, is due to this idea).
6) Paizo got it right when they put the Isle of Dread south of Amedio in the Pearl Sea. Perfect!
7) Most of the nations, like Hyboria and Fireland, I just ignore as well. I mean, take Erypt for example. Erypt! What idiot thought that was a cool play on a real place name? It sounds like the kind of 'cool' idea I might have come up with in the 7th grade!
8) I do not like what happened to the Flaness, to Iuz especially, during the years of Living Greyhawk. So, I don't include them in my history. I also love the old modules like the Giant series, the original Slavers series, etc. So, I simply begin my players in about 576 CY and go from there, not having to worry about the Greyhawk Wars and their consequences at all.
9) No Sorcerors! They make Wizards, as a class, worthless. Why play a Wizard when you can be a Sorceror who can cast more spells per day, choose which spells to cast at the moment he needs to cast them, and doesn't need to worry about a spellbook? Ack!
10) Nobody wanted to play a Cleric because they were basically weak fighters who had to use all their spell slots for healing purposes. 2nd Edition improved that, but I allow Clerics to pray for any spell accessable to them at the moment they want it, aka Sorcerors. Now, they can make more varied use of their available spells and simply use what is left over for healing.
11) Player characters do not have the power to confront any god or arch demon/devil on their home plane. The stats given in the various references are for their Prime Material Avatars only. It can be assumed that their power on their home planes is 10-100 times that of their Prime Material Avatar. Ventures on the planes ruled by such beings are surgical strike type affairs where confrontation with the actual god is avoided at all costs.
I know many of these are changes to the core rules rather than Greyhawk specific, but since I only DM the World of Greyhawk, they go hand in hand to me.
10) I allow Clerics to pray for any spell accessable to them at the moment they want it, aka Sorcerors. Now, they can make more varied use of their available spells and simply use what is left over for healing.
11) Player characters do not have the power to confront any god or arch demon/devil on their home plane. The stats given in the various references are for their Prime Material Avatars only. It can be assumed that their power on their home planes is 10-100 times that of their Prime Material Avatar. Ventures on the planes ruled by such beings are surgical strike type affairs where confrontation with the actual god is avoided at all costs.
3) Mordenkainen is really a douche-bag. Being True Neutral means that he works against the ascendancy of Good as diligently as he works against the ascendancy of Evil in the Flanness. My players begin believing he is one of the great Good Guys, but as their power increases, they begin to clash with him more and more until, like Tenser, they see him as an obstacle to their goals instead of the role-model they originally esteemed him to be.
5) I incorporate the idea that the Mayor of Irongate is secretly a Gold Dragon (credit to Maldin's Greyhawk, I believe, is due to this idea).
9) No Sorcerors! They make Wizards, as a class, worthless. Why play a Wizard when you can be a Sorceror who can cast more spells per day, choose which spells to cast at the moment he needs to cast them, and doesn't need to worry about a spellbook? Ack!
10) Nobody wanted to play a Cleric because they were basically weak fighters who had to use all their spell slots for healing purposes. 2nd Edition improved that, but I allow Clerics to pray for any spell accessable to them at the moment they want it, aka Sorcerors. Now, they can make more varied use of their available spells and simply use what is left over for healing.
SirXaris
Great list and I like many of your variations.
3) Yep. My high level wizard who is an NPC is the campaign has a loose affiliation With Tenser and some other powerful Lawful Good NPCs and are trying to tip the balance in favour of lawful good. Trying to keep things 'neutral' is means keeping things a step closer to evil. Makes for a fun campaign to incorporate this stuff.
5) Yep same in my campaign, but was thinking of making him a Greyhawk Dragon.
9)I'm not sure which version/flavour you play, but in my 3.5 campaign Sorcerers (per the rules) dont get to pick their spells whenever they want. The only get access to their 'spells known' list. They can change one of those per level, but it is less spells than they can actually cast. As opposed to a wizard, who can read his spell book to gain any spell in his book the next day. So there is a very strong reason why you would want to be a wizard rather than a sorcerer. Both have strengths and weaknesses. Sorcerers are better mobile artillery, but Wizards are more flexible.
10) Clerics in 3.5 are very strong and my favourite class. Good aligned clerics exchange any spell for a healing spell, so it works very well as per the rules.
9)I'm not sure which version/flavour you play, but in my 3.5 campaign Sorcerers (per the rules) dont get to pick their spells whenever they want. The only get access to their 'spells known' list. They can change one of those per level, but it is less spells than they can actually cast. As opposed to a wizard, who can read his spell book to gain any spell in his book the next day. So there is a very strong reason why you would want to be a wizard rather than a sorcerer. Both have strengths and weaknesses. Sorcerers are better mobile artillery, but Wizards are more flexible.
We're saying the same thing - I just said it poorly. From among the limited number of spells a sorceror knows, he may cast any of them any number of times up to his daily allotment for that spell level. Thus, he need not plan ahead each day and try to guess which spells he will have the most need of. He may make that decision in the heat of the moment.
Contrast that with the Wizard who must try to guess each morning which spells will come in most handy during the rest of the day and is allowed to cast fewer spells each day than the Sorceror on top of it.
From a role-playing point of view, it may be beneficial to be a Wizard as you may have need in your daily life of a greater selection of spells from your spellbook. But, from an adventuring point of view (which is 99% of the game), you only needs spells directly relevant in battle. That's why none of my players every want to play a Wizard and why I dislike the Sorceror class so much.
Inspired by something Mortellan said elsewhere, what would you change about the official Greyhawk setting if you had a time machine and influence with the designers?
-Easy. I'd get the royalties!
Actually, I accept almost everything.
chaoticprime wrote:
I think I would have warned Gary Gygax about Lorraine Williams.
-I wikied her. Wow. That explains a lot!
The following is more of a D&D rather than a WOG issue, but:
Phalastar wrote:
Anything sci-fi like is completely deleted.
There are no firearms whatsoever - Murylund's paladins use repeating crossbows...
-I accept some scifi (e.g. the Barrier Peaks) and firearms (via all those WWII soldiers who read cursed magic scrolls ), but it's not exactly common. After the Greyhawk Wars (remember, I'm playing 578), I'd have no problem with Murlynd's clerics geting firearms; medieval firearms suck anyway. To get something better, they would have to find one as part of treasure (both PC and NPCs). Again, not exactly common problem.
SirXaris wrote:
No Sci-Fi, especially psionics! Psionics belong in a futuristic, sci-fi genre, not in a medieval fantasy genre.
-Psioncis is one of the few things I do change- I just convert Psionicist and psionic creatures to Sorcerers (D&D 3.5). It doesn't come up very often, anyway.
SirXaris wrote:
... Two-handed weapons and crossbows generally do twice as much damage as their single-handed counterparts...
...fixed, if you use AD&D2 Combat & Tactics, or even D&D 3.5 (which I currently am).
..back to Greyhawk:
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
The Greyhawk Wars . . . period.
Since my last post on this thread, I've read a few things that claim the Greyhawk Wars were an attempt to recreate Gygax's Greyhawk, making it over in TSR's image...
-WRT Rasgon & Vestcoat, it seems that every time a designer shows up, they want to "BLOW THINGS UP" so they can leave their mark. Lame.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
...Anyway, that's reason enough for me to get rid of the Greyhawk Wars altogether.
-It's not how I would have gone, but I accept the results.
However, if you start your campaign before the GWs (I'm in 578), then there's time to change the future!
Probably for the worse...
Robbastard wrote:
Also, I would make weather go from west to east.
-In the tropical and arctic zones, it makes sense, but that is weird in the temperate zone. But I accepted it anyway.
Phalastar wrote:
I had King Hazendel of Sunndi as a half elf.
-I thought he was?
IronGolem wrote:
The Archclericy of Veluna would have worshiped St. Cuthbert...
-In Living Greyhawk, Veluna the dioceses are ruled by Raoist Priests, but the national council is a combination of Raoist, Cuthbertine, and Heironean.
IronGolem wrote:
----------------------SPOILER ALERT-------------
The Flight of Fiends and the exile of Iuz to the demi-plane of dread would have actually caused chaos and revolt in most of the conquered lands of Iuz's bloated empire...
-I think it did, in the Bandit Kingdoms.
Hmmm... exactly when did Seuvord have his epiphany?
IronGolem wrote:
----------------------SPOILER ALERT-------------
The Scarlet Brotherhood would have derived martial arts from Baklunish yogic arts (not via a gate to Kara Tur)...
-I think that's one of the things from the canonical Fate of Istus which became non-canonical in The Scarlet Brotherhood.
vestcoat wrote:
Put Big T back in the SB. I just about threw The Scarlet Brotherhood supplement in the garbage when Mr. Reynolds undid this connection. Just a rumor?!? Why turn the most secretive and well-organized evil empire in the Flanaess into a boring LE society with no diabolical schemes? Why undo the groundwork of both Gygax and Sargent without adding to it or offering a better idea? Fortunately the LGG fix from the obscure I1 reference works well.
-Tharizdun's cult is one of the factions in the SB.
I don't think SB's brotherhood is boring. Matter of taste? With the monks on top, the SB was obviously going to be LE-ruled.
I think the SB has enough schemes!
One of the things which gets old is the "it's Tharizdun/Zagyg/Iuz" thing, later joined by Iggwilv and Vecna and Mordenkainen.
SUPrUNown wrote:
Horned Society were completely evil, debauched, decadent devil worshippers. They were the boogiemen you scared you children with stories about at night.
-I think they were, before Iuz kicked their butts!
Oh! You mean devil, as opposed to Nerull. Some of them were, along with Daemon-worshippers. I think the Nerull faction was just on top ca CY 582.
Phalastar wrote:
Some of the Heirarchs from the Horned Society are still around a plot against Iuz.
-They are. See Giuliana Mortidus.
mortellan wrote:
...I'd have liked to talk Gary and co. into continuing their "Events of the Flanaess" articles in Dragon Magazine.
-Love them! I refer to them all the time.
mortellan wrote:
I'd also have pulled strings to see that Ivid the Undying got published...
However, if you start your campaign before the GWs (I'm in 578), then there's time to change the future!
As to "the game," I don't "play" the Greyhawk Wars, or include them in my writings. Its all pre-Greyhawk Wars for me. I simply meant it as it was asked -- I'd officially do away with the Greyhawk Wars and delete them from "canon."
...Its all pre-Greyhawk Wars for me. I simply meant it as it was asked -- I'd officially do away with the Greyhawk Wars and delete them from "canon."
But, to each his own. There are somethings mentioned here that are said need "deleting," that I happen to like and would not delete/change.
- I accept all of the canonical stuff, and try to make it work (sometimes I can come up with a creative solution which ends up working better than what I would have come up with if I'd just come up with what I thought made sense.
The one thing that actually irritates me was making Merrika a seperate demigoddess. I thought it was reasonably obvious from the description of her and her worshippers in Against the Cult of the Reptile God (N1)that "Merrika" was simply the local name for Berei.
But Wastri doesn't quite fit anyway. Iquander could have just made up a LG demigod. I don't think one more deity would have hurt. Oh well. Fortunately, I never mentioned it to my players, so I didn't have anything to re-explain...
I seem to be in the minority on a lot of canon "issues". Granted, it's all subjective to whatever one thinks is fun ... so I don't really let it get in the way ...
But, I really don't ever seem to have things that I don't accept, or that I change ...
I like the few scattered bits of sci-fi ... for example, I like the buried ship in the Barrier Peaks (thought I rarely use it or make it evident). I am totally okay with SKR's Scarlet Brotherhood ... since there is an oriental Middle Kingdom (Celestial Imperium) just a bit west on Oerik, I just basically said that "Kara-Tur" is the gaijin name for it, and I use OA for that region, and that's where some martial arts came from ... I like the '96 global map of Oerth ... I am fond of the Olman and their deities, and follow that they've been there since Tamoachan ... I use GH Wars - not just the history, but the board game as well ... I use most all of the Living Greyhawk material (even Rary destroying the Scorpion Crown and the Bright Desert starting to recover, though I wasn't fond of Karystine's passing, it still happened) ... Oh, and I use Psionics. (As I pointed out in another recent thread, the Complete Book of Psionics notes GH as a realm with integrated psionics.) ... I love Spelljammer and Greyspace - especially in their geocentric star system ... I use Mordenkainen as written, douche-bag or not ... as well with the Co8 ... I even like the Expedition to the Ruins of GH, and the mirror-world Robilar theory ...
I guess the only thing that I am not fond of is Murlynd's Cowboy appearance. I don't mind Arquebuses and other early firearms, but six shooters are a bit much. But, he's still technically there ... I just don't involve him, and my players just don't notice him so much. If he weren't so Western, I wouldn't have a problem with a deity of technology and smoke powder weapons.
Oh, and I *do* wish that the Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom hadn't gotten a raw deal. I'd reform the Order.
I guess that's my list ... for what it's worth. $o.o2 _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
Last edited by Icarus on Tue May 03, 2011 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
9)I'm not sure which version/flavour you play, but in my 3.5 campaign Sorcerers (per the rules) dont get to pick their spells whenever they want. The only get access to their 'spells known' list. They can change one of those per level, but it is less spells than they can actually cast. As opposed to a wizard, who can read his spell book to gain any spell in his book the next day. So there is a very strong reason why you would want to be a wizard rather than a sorcerer. Both have strengths and weaknesses. Sorcerers are better mobile artillery, but Wizards are more flexible.
We're saying the same thing - I just said it poorly. From among the limited number of spells a sorceror knows, he may cast any of them any number of times up to his daily allotment for that spell level. Thus, he need not plan ahead each day and try to guess which spells he will have the most need of. He may make that decision in the heat of the moment.
Contrast that with the Wizard who must try to guess each morning which spells will come in most handy during the rest of the day and is allowed to cast fewer spells each day than the Sorceror on top of it.
From a role-playing point of view, it may be beneficial to be a Wizard as you may have need in your daily life of a greater selection of spells from your spellbook. But, from an adventuring point of view (which is 99% of the game), you only needs spells directly relevant in battle. That's why none of my players every want to play a Wizard and why I dislike the Sorceror class so much.
SirXaris
I (& players in my game) have never perceived wizards as being inferior to sorcerers.
1) Wizards potentially have access to an infinite number of spells--sorcerers don't. If you want your players to reconsider the wizard class, tailor your adventures towards making their spells less useful ("Wow, if only I'd chosen Knock, Comprehend Languages, or Charm Person over all those Evocation spells!").
2) Wizards gain access to higher-level spells one level earlier than sorcerers. A 5th level wizard has access to fireball, while a 5th level sorcere does not.
3) For firepower vs versatility, an evoker makes for a decent compromise.
Then have the glaciers retreat, leaving a colder Flanaess.
The present Flanaess is surprisingly warm, even subtropical, not Europeany Medievally over much of its extent. Too much so for my tastes. Then again, I live in the north and like it!
First and foremost NO Greyhawk WARS! -nuff said on that eyesore!
Second NO retarded looking, craptastic, cheaply drawn up and labeled Oerth map from the magazine article! Map sucks, it shames the Darlene maps.
Third and sadly: If Gary could have kept the rights and ownership of the World of Greyhawk. So no matter what materials were future released would at least been under his copyright and not anyone else's.
Now for the GOOD things that did happen:
We have a choice as to what to do with our world and we can keep it alive with good community support such as this site etc. The upside is since no heavy expansion was done in 1st edition, people like me have more freedom to shape the setting to our DM and play styles unlike some settings we can name. Least this is how I feel about it. Everybody has a different take.
This thread has made me think so, here are my changes:
1) Kara-Tur and Aquaria are part of Oerth.
2) No Sci-Fi material.
3) Changed cosmology. The planar arrangement is not well known and there is no wheel. Sigil and Ravenloft are part of the universe of Oerth.
4) The pantheon is completely made over. I have inserted a more Medieval style church that is the faith of most of the area.
5) The Wars happened but not as written. They were much longer, ended with a stalemates and happened much differently.
As a final note; I have always wanted to see the original maps Gygax used. I have a feeling that Oerth would feel much more correct on that map rather than the Darlene map. _________________ Agape,
Gary gave some other details but most of them were pretty vague. From the top of my head this is what I remember:
* Greyhawk was at Chicago with Dyvers at Milwaukee.
* Geography was changed some but no details were given.
* The Great Kingdom was supposedly around New York.
* West of the Mississippi was not explored.
* Asia was somewhat smaller. No Europe details mentioned (Aquaria at Europe?)
* Pirate Kingdoms was possibly around Florida.
Based on the bits I found I tried sketching in areas on a blank North America map. If I even came close it would have placed Iuz in Canada at about Winnipeg, Blackmoor around the Hudson and so on.
There were more questions than answers with this so I kind of abandoned the project. _________________ Agape,
There's a little more information in "The Gnome Cache" in Dragon #1.
Quote:
If the learned men of Oerth were able to tell you its geography they would say that in relation to our planet they are quite alike. Asia is a trifle smaller, Europe and North America a trifle larger — but the scientists (or rather philosophers) of Oerth are not able to explain this for two reasons: They neither know of the alternate worlds in Oerth’s probability line nor do they have any sure knowledge of Oerth’s geography outside their immediate areas. Likewise, Oerth has races similar in many respects to ours, and their migrations and distribution somewhat resemble those of our world, but their histories differ sharply from ours departing from our probability line some 2,500 years ago. Then the changes were but small, but over the intervening centuries the difference has grown so that there is now no resemblance between Oerth and Earth when the contemporary models are compared Oerth is backward in terms of our planet. It is a dreaming world. Socially, culturally, technologically it is behind us. When the probability line split there were other changes than those of bore up under all an historical nature, and scientific laws differ also. What is fact on Earth may be fancy on Oerth and vice versa. So a strange blend of Medievel cultures exist in the known lands of Oerth, and what lies in the terra incognita of Africa or across the Western Ocean is the subject of much myth and supposition only. Ships which ply the waters venture not into such areas, and few are the souls hardy enough to dare expeditions east or south, for things as they are seem quite satisfactory as centuries of tradition prove.
This evidently bears so little relationship with the published Oerth that there's not much value in comparing the two. I don't think Iuz, for example, existed at all in his original campaign (the players only encountered Iuz once, when Robilar was freeing him, much less his minions). It's much more like the Aerth setting that Gygax developed for Dangerous Journeys; it should be noted that the city of "Falcondonia" exists on the east coast of Aerth's continent of Vargaard (North America). Presumedly this is Aerth's version of Greyhawk City. There's a city to the north of it called Grandmark, which perhaps bears some relationship with the Gran March.
When I started my first online game, “Into the Land of Black Ice” back in 1995, I made the region much larger than was implied on any available map. The Land began at a massive chasm which had but one crossing - The Bridge of Bone. There was a smaller chasm surrounding Rigodruok deep in the Land itself. I decided that the Land of Black Ice was the result of magical fallout; the Blizzard of Black Ice fell after the summoning of the Rain of Colorless Fire. The Land itself was an amalgam of bits of the lower planes; various layers of Hades, the Abyss, Tartarus, and Gehenna all mention black snows or ice.
Later I started “Beneath the Pinnacles of Azor’alq”, wherein I described the spires as once having served as the massive supports which once held an island far above the reaches of the sea. Bits of the Isle were still scattered, here and there, wedged between the pinnacles.
Nowadays I run an undersea game in the Solnor Ocean, wherein the BBEG has discovered the “plug at the bottom of the sea”... sorta. ;) It also assumes Celene is a hollow Dyson Sphere, but that’s almost canon.
In short, I change pretty much whatever I need, to achieve the result I want. ;)
If I was to go further, I would do away with the idea that sorcerers derive their powers from dragons’ blood and use hags’ lineage instead. But I more or less do that already, don’t I?
The Greyhawk Wars never bothered me. There would be people and groups on the world that would want to restore Greyhawk, eg people wanting to free Tehn and Sterich from their invaders, people who want to reunite the Great Kingdom etc, so you can build that into campaigns.
What I would change is more differences between the human races. Like Flan would be celtic/norse and Baklunish would be arabian/egyptian while Suel would be Oriental.
Also more demi humans and more differences between them. Eg Dwarves would be stone based not mammals, Elves would be wood or plant creatures not mammals, Halflings would be reptile based, egg laying scavengers.
The Greyhawk Wars never bothered me. There would be people and groups on the world that would want to restore Greyhawk, eg people wanting to free Tehn and Sterich from their invaders, people who want to reunite the Great Kingdom etc, so you can build that into campaigns.
I agree, but it's a lot of work so I prefer to simply begin new campaigns in CY 576 for simplicity's sake.
Quote:
What I would change is more differences between the human races. Like Flan would be celtic/norse and Baklunish would be arabian/egyptian while Suel would be Oriental.
I prefer to base the Flan Tehn on the Celtic culture, but I like American Plains Indian culture for the Rovers of the Barrens and I base Perrenland more on Swiss culture.
Quote:
Also more demi humans and more differences between them. Eg Dwarves would be stone based not mammals,
Galeb Duhr?
Quote:
Elves would be wood or plant creatures not mammals,
Dryads?
Quote:
Halflings would be reptile based, egg laying scavengers.
Kobolds?
SirXaris
Edit: Fixed a quote tag. SX
Last edited by SirXaris on Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
I'd swop out some of the abilities so that the core races are not all bipedal mammals. With the variety in nature it seems a shame the core races are all mammals, 2 legs, 2 arms, 2 eyes etc.
As for timeline, I know many players that have never done the classic modules, so I will run through against the giants, tomb of horrors, temple of elemental evil etc, all starting 575 CY.
I make demi gods just other names for regular gods, such as Yondalla is the Halfling aspect of Pelor, Solonor Thelandira is the Elven name for Ehlonna.
My vision of Greyhawk is radically different from canon. Furthermore, my vision has radically varied over the years such that what I am doing now is nothing like what I was doing in high school - and I suspect that a decade from now my tastes will have radically changed again.
As such, I don't even know what I would want changed.
The one thing that has remained constant throughout the years, however, is the purtiness of Darlene's map. If she was still alive and whatnot, I wish she was commissioned to craft the map for the LGG instead of the ugly little thing we got instead.
I use most all of the Living Greyhawk material (even Rary destroying the Scorpion Crown and the Bright Desert starting to recover, though I wasn't fond of Karystine's passing, it still happened)
Was that the "official" resolution? I was always left wondering what were the results of LG's arcs, since there was nowhere to check for official updates...
Well, I looked into it a while ago, because ... well, because I am a geek and I do things like that. Unfortunately, this one wasn't in the hands of the organization or it's directors (RPGA and LG staff), this one was in the laps of the players.
At the end of the Bright Sands arc, DMs were asked to report the result of the table, and how the PCs found resolution at their game. There were several options, basically, including Rary being slain, the Serpent Crown being destroyed - or not, and several other things. When the staff got the results, they were to tally up the different options, and whatever had the majority of the outcomes would be written into "history", so to speak.
When I looked into it, I contacted the person to whom the results were to have been reported. They indicated that there really hadn't been very many DMs that bothered reporting the module, and so there hadn't ever been anything "officially" put out containing what little information that was sent in.
He did go on to further say, however, that to the best of his recollection, the end result was that Rary was, indeed, still living and the Scorpion Crown had, in fact, been destroyed. (Which, I'd like to point out, doesn't cause an instant magical recovery of the Bright Desert, it merely lifts the curse, so that the terrain can gradually, naturally return to it's more verdant state.) Also, I think that I found that there wasn't a *specific* thing that said that Karistyne died, because it could've technically been an off-screen kind of thing, and though her castle was assaulted, and members of her household and staff slain, there wouldn't technically be canon against her making it out. Lord knows it's been done before.
At any rate ... hope that's informative, and that I didn't ramble too much. _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
Thanks for that info! I was just wondering how did yo uiget it,because I always had interest in the developments of LG, and, living in a country without an assigned LG region, and without a place to check for updates/plot synopsis, there's a huge, gaping hole in my post 591 Greyhawk knowledge. I visited the official lg sites, but a lot where less than informative, and some didn't seem like they were updated in ever.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
From among the limited number of spells a sorceror knows, he may cast any of them any number of times up to his daily allotment for that spell level. Thus, he need not plan ahead each day and try to guess which spells he will have the most need of. He may make that decision in the heat of the moment.
