Anyone old enough to have been gaming in the late 70s, may recall the cultural blip that was Erich von Daniken, the Swiss author of Chariots of the Gods, Gods From Outer Space and similar books. Von Daniken hypothesized, from various cultural and archeological evidence of a curious or ambiguous nature, that Earth had been visited by extraterrestrials in pre-history or very early historic times. He focused particularly on Mexico and Central America and postulated that the gods of the Olmecs, Toltecs, Mayans and Aztecs were, in fact, extraterrestrials -visitors from outer space who were taken by the aforementioned peoples as gods.
Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan anyone?
Are the gods of the Olman, some or all of them or even their origin, extraterrestrial to Oerth? If one takes von Daniken’s thought, they could be.
This could easily be tied into the crashed spaceship in S3. As the Olman look different than the extraterrestrials in S3, perhaps more than one alien civilization has visited Oerth. These might be individual visits or the aliens might be aware of each other. If the latter, do they get along? In any case, is anyone coming back?
If the Olman are an afterthought in anyone’s game, relegated to a position of savage irrelevance to all but those exploring the southern jungles, here is a very quick way to get the Olman into the ballgame in a unique way.
"The Sirius Mystery," by Robert KG Temple
"The God Kings and the Titans," by James Bailey
Both are fascinating reads.
The version of "Erypt" I'm tinkering with borrows from Temple's hypothesis, and involves ancient astronauts. For now it's just some scribbles in my notebook, but it's an interesting notion.
As to the Olman, didn't their gods arrive on "sky boats," or something?
in the 1e DDG the "Central American" pantheon (which heavily influenced the olman pantheon to say the least) was supposed to have come from the stars rather then from another plane of existance. In 2e (with the book now called Legend and Lore) they were amended to have come from an "Alternate" material plane.
"The Sirius Mystery," by Robert KG Temple
"The God Kings and the Titans," by James Bailey
Both are fascinating reads.
The version of "Erypt" I'm tinkering with borrows from Temple's hypothesis, and involves ancient astronauts. For now it's just some scribbles in my notebook, but it's an interesting notion.
--Erik
I have not read Temple's book but I am familiar with the Dogon mythology on which is apparently based according to Amazon.
I think there is room in Greyhawk for sci-fi elements, and not just because EGG put some there. I don't see limited sci-fi as inherently antithetical to pseudo-medieval fantasy. While Tolkienesque fantasy would not hold much with it, I think Moorcock and Wagner are among the first rank (my first rank anyway) where you can see some mixing of genres.
"Ancient astronauts" seems like a good compromise position, perhjaps between two camps. They are placed in the past yet leave behind a particular legacy which might be more or less concrete in the present day. I had not thought to base a culture around them. Fascinating idea!
Here's an idea, how about actually treating the Olmans and their real world source cultures with a little dignity and respect? It's bad enough that Sean Reynolds had to paint the entire Olman culture as savage barbarians in his woefully poorly researched and written Scarlet Brotherhood book, now we're going to assume that the entire religion of the Olman is based on vegepygmies with laser guns?
Whenever an idea like this is proposed for the Olman, or the Touv or whoever, try this test:
If we said the same thing about the Oeridians, would people mock us for our disregard for canon? In this case the answer is almost certainly yes.
Don't try and apply a different standard to the Olman, please. _________________ All shall love me and despair!
Here's an idea, how about actually treating the Olmans and their real world source cultures with a little dignity and respect? It's bad enough that Sean Reynolds had to paint the entire Olman culture as savage barbarians in his woefully poorly researched and written Scarlet Brotherhood book, now we're going to assume that the entire religion of the Olman is based on vegepygmies with laser guns?
Whenever an idea like this is proposed for the Olman, or the Touv or whoever, try this test:
If we said the same thing about the Oeridians, would people mock us for our disregard for canon? In this case the answer is almost certainly yes.
Don't try and apply a different standard to the Olman, please.
Please accept my apologies if you found the "ancient astronaut" suggestion insulting.
As I see matters, the Olman bear no relationship to any real world culture more than the Baklunish, Oeridians, Suel or Flan do. As I see it, they are an amalgam of a variety of cultures - a fictionalized culture. While they do bear, I think, most closely a resemblence to "Mezo-Americans," they are not the exact equivalent to any "real world" people or culture.
However the Olman are treated, or any other Greyhawk ethnic or racial group, I do not think that can be fairly interpreted as a reflection upon, or insult to, any "real world" people, racial or ethnic group. Not without a lot more effort anyway. It is certainly not my intent.
"Vegepygmies with laser guns" does not accurately reflect the von Daniken hypothesis, which I think is not insulting at all as I read it. His is flattering to the extent it suggests that some peoples might be descendents of advanced extraterrestrials who once visited the earth in the distant past. Exotic? Yes. A fascinating theory? Yes. Insulting? I would not be insulted by the suggestion my ancestors were ancient spacemen. If it were actually true, I think it would be cool.
I will readily take the test you suggest.
First, I ridicule no one because they disregard canon; I'm more likely to object if someone too closely adheres to canon as I think canon can too easily get in the way of imagination.
Second, I have done something very similar to what you suggest might be done with the Oeridians. Please see my post - Ivid and the Extraterresterials. IMC there actually is a "Rauxes colony" which is related to the crashed S3 spaceship. It is somewhat different than what I describe in my Ivid post but I've got laser toting aliens in the middle of the former Great Kingdom, descretely, of course. The "canon wonks" can go hang if they don't like it. EGG and Arneson (Blackmoor) both put extraterrestrials and high technology at the DMs disposal and I intend to use them without feeling "illegitimate" for doing so. My Greyhawk campaign is not Gamma World but neither do I sweep the alien/technology stuff under the rug. I think it is a matter of proportion and how one goes about things.
I think I have offended you with my post. I did not mean to and I apologize. My intent, as I expressed it, was to "get the Olman into the ballgame" and _not_ see them relegated to "savage irrelevance" or an "afterthought." It is my thought that playing off of von Daniken's theory is one way to give the Olman something more than they have been given in SKRs treatment.
Of course, one could more closely model the Olman on actual Aztec, Olmec, Toltec or Mayan culture and, if you look at the height of any of those civilizations, it would certainly put them "into the ballgame," without reference to "ancient astronauts." That does not, I think, make any other approach illegitimate, in this case "ancient astronauts."
IMC, the Olman are a people who exist at several levels of cultural advancement. There are "savages," as that subjective term is thrown around, but there are also highly advanced Olman, more akin to the height of Mayan civilization (but not an exact mirror as I am no historian of that civilization). Here again, I deviate from canon but it works for me and I don't feel bad sharing details of my campaign just because it is not "canon."
I have toyed with the von Daniken hypothesis as it relates to the Olman but have never made a firm decision on the point. I have done very little with the Touv. Because I don't see a one-to-one relationship between any fictional Greyhawk culture and any real world culture, I feel free to explore possibilities.
Some people speak of doing "research" for their games within "canon." I cannot imagine a worse way to proceed. Get an idea, then see what might have already been said on the topic. If your idea is better, go with it and screw "canon." Its a game not a term paper. IMO.
Where I do engage in "research" is within actual history but I make no attempt to hold "true" to that history. Rather, I apply it to the game, as a game. If it is cool, I go with it.
I am prepared to be told I am "wrong" in my approach. I won't buy that but I'm prepared to hear it, or to be ignored as not sufficiently "canon."
I guess I can be prepared to be told I insulted some people or group or misrepresented some "fact" because I did not faithfully reproduce history within the game. It is not, however, my intent.
I understand, I think, where you are coming from and I can respect that (We can talk about the Flan and their treatment sometime and compare notes). I hope you can understand that my intent is not to insult or defame and can respect that I see myself playing a game that does not reflect anything of the real world beyond the most general similarities.
Regardless of how you may see what I have written, however, I apologize. I cannot, however, promise not to "sin" again.
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