I recently picked up the PHB II and I was "cool a knight class". But then it hit me, up until now I always used PrC for the Different knight groups. I really like teh idea of PrC for them cause it makes each one different and something to shot for. But then again being born and raised in the Shielding, why can't a player start as a knight and well, the new class is done very well. Any thoughts on using the new Knight class with teh Knightly Orders of GH. Was thinking that Affiliations might be the way to go (also from the PHB II).
Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom
Type: Fighting Compay
Scale: 9 (Regional/barony) formerly 13(Multiregional/kingdom and vassal states)
Affiliation Score Criteria
Character level: +1/2 PC's Level
Favored Races (Dwarf, elf, half-elf, human) - +1
5 or more ranks in Diplomacy or Ride - +1 each
The feats Power Attack, Cleave, Mounted Combat, Great Cleave, Heavy armor proficiency - +1 each.
No ranks in Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) -2
Titles and Benefits
Affiliation Score
9 or lower Not affiliated or junior member with no benefits
10 or higher Knight Protector: The character is eligible to become a full member of the order and may take the Knight Protector of the Great Kingdom PrC (from Sword and Fist) if they meet the prerequisites of the PrC
Membership 24
Note: if you meet the minimums for the PrC your initial affiliation score is also 10 (Base Attack +4 is imbedded in the Character Level part of the score). How is that for a start?
Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom s
Affiliation Score
9 or lower Not affiliated or junior member with no benefits
10 or higher Knight Protector: The character is eligible to become a full member of the order and may take the Knight Protector of the Great Kingdom PrC (from Sword and Fist) if they meet the prerequisites of the PrC
Membership 24
?
Affiliation Score
3 or Lower No Affiliation
4-10 Squire
11 -20 Knight Protector: The character is eligible to become a full member of the order and may take the Knight Protector (Complete Warrior) PrC, if they meet the prerequisites of the PrC Membership
request a 1st level cure poition, or scroll with a protective spell once a month.
21-29 Knight Captian; +1 attack rolls against members of enemy affilitations: Squire (one member of the affilitaion that wishes to become a Knight Protector).
30 - Lord Knight;
Some partial notes based off of the LGG
Knights of the Hart
Type: Fighting Company
Scale: 13(Multiregional/Kingdom and vassal states)
Affiliation Score Critera
Character Level - +1/2 PC's level
Is member of a favored race (human, elf, or half-elf) +1
Landowner - +2
5 or more ranks in Diplomacy - +1
OR
Knights of Furyondy
Type: Fighting Company
Scale: 12(Multiregional/Kingdom)
Affiliation Score Critera
Character Level - +1/2 PC's level
Is member of a favored race (human or half-elf) +1
Knights of Veluna
Type: Fighting Company
Scale: 12(Multiregional/Kingdom)
Affiliation Score Critera
Character Level - +1/2 PC's level
Is member of a favored race (human or half-elf) +1
Landowner - +2
5 or more ranks in Diplomacy - +1
Knights of the High Forest
Type: Fighting Company (racial)
Scale: 12(Multiregional/Kingdom)
Affiliation Score Critera: Only elves may join
Character Level - +1/2 PC's level
While I like some of the ideas in the the Knight class in the PHB II, I do not like the idea of a base Knight class. Here is why:
Squires are not 0-level, and upon becoming 1st level become knights. With the exception of bought titles of knighthood(which would not involve taking a level in a Knight class anyways, and amounts to little more than so much frippery), knighthoods are only granted to proven "warriors". Squires have to prove themselves in battle to be elevated to knighthood. A knight is not simply somebody who follows a code of conduct. A knight is a member of a knightly order.
The prestige class best represents the advancement of a "warrior" to a prescribed level of ability that allows for them to be rewarded with a title of knighthood through service to a knightly order as a squire or through the completion of some great deed in service to a nation or to a knightly order itself who may then petition for the warrior's admittance to the order.
Lots of good stuff in the PHB II, but the Knight base class is not one of them in my opinion. Affiliations are a better mechanism than "I'm a 1st level knight! W00T!", in my opinion. No dude, your character has merely finished the Youngling program, and is now a Padawan. It takes a bit more time, wisdom, and accomplishment to become a Jedi.
Unless you are like the half-wit brother of Yoda or something. "A 'jedi' we tell him he is, he he he."
Any Knight class should not be about being a knight at 1st level. Horrible presentation. If they presented the character as starting as a Squire, and then gaining advancement to eventually become a Knight based on the apparent merit of the character's accomplishments, then the class would have been rather decent. As such, this can easily be dealt with by any DM by changing some of the descriptions of the background and of benefits gained at the various experience levels. Seeing as 6ht level is the required level at which most Prestige Classes can be taken, that would be a good level for the title of "Knight" to be bestowed upon a character of the Knight class. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:37 am; edited 1 time in total
Personally, I love the knight class. I think you can have the knight class, knight affiliations, and knight prestige classes. And I think WoG is the perfect setting for all of these. _________________ Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!
I do concur with Cebrion's reasons, but do agree with gargoyle and others that GH is the perfect setting for a class like A Knight type and am certainly intrigued by building the idea around each province or kingdom.
I think that there should be Special quailifiers, maybe abilities, and perhaps a hystory that would provide enemies and alliances. Also maybe how they may react with other "orders" similar to the histories that were briefed in the early GH boxed set in the 80s
I think by doing this it would create great side bar possibilities between PC and NPC / encounter types.
An example that comes to mind is perhaps one Knight type that feels that any form of missle / bow attacks are not honorous.... then an elven knight would surely disagree with this mentality.
[Rant]Personally, I really hate the proliferation of additional base classes, and the knight (and others like it that are specialized versions of existing classes—for instance, samurai, swashbuckler, etc.) particularly get my goat. For me, the fighter should be flexible enough* to fulfill the various warrior roles with the right application of skills and feats and possibly topped off with an appropriate prestige class (for specific and specialized fighting styles and organizations). I have the same loathing for any "ninja" class--the rogue fills that to a tee with or without a prestige class to mold into a specific ninja archetype. Grr Arg![/Rant]
The use of Affiliations is a good idea, IMO, as it captures aspects of an organization that prestige classes can't—the perks and penalties of membership in an organization. Also, sometimes prestige classes may not be particularly necessary for modeling an organization (say, because the knighthood in question doesn't have anything special that needs to be modeled with game mechanics). Really, is what separates Knighthood A from Knighthood B something something dramatic enough to warrant different class abilities? If not, a prestige class may not be appropriate, but the Affiliation rules always fit for knighthoods, guilds and the like.
* In reality, the 3.5 fighter needs more skill points and class skills. In my games, I give them 4 + Int skill points per level and added the following skills: Balance, Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Profession, Sense Motive, and Tumble.
Really, is what separates Knighthood A from Knighthood B something something dramatic enough to warrant different class abilities? If not, a prestige class may not be appropriate, but the Affiliation rules always fit for knighthoods, guilds and the like.
Affiliations are probably my favorite thing from the PHB II, and they work for any organization worthy of note. As to PrCs and different class abilities, you hit the nail on the head- either training or other factors within the knighthoods must vary to really justify varying class abilities. There could only be one Knight PrC, with affiliations giving the perks/responsibilities of the organizations. However, the PrCs offer the chance to get some real variance between what operating as a knight means among the different orders in the Flanaess.
There are some key differences among the orders, whether it is a commitment to a temporal cause(Knight Protectors) versus a spiritual cause(Knights of Holy shielding), or between their required methods of combat: traditional horsed combat on open battlefields(Knights of the Hart: Furyondy), non-traditional fighting in rough terrain(Knights of the Hart: Highfolk in the Vesve), or even the use of "questionable techniques" when fighting against superior foes(Knights of Dispatch). There is a lot of room in there for the insertion or class rules catering to the different orders with regard to PrCs, which simply serves to make the orders more interesting and different from one another. A collection of knights from varied orders then becomes something other than just a cookie cutter group of characters who are only wearing different heraldry. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
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