Christohper Hitchens died yesterday here in Houston which, predictably, got me thinking about my campaign. I have always enjoyed running detailed adventures pertaining to cultural perspective, the last campaign took place in a ruined city that had been teleported underground centuries ago resulting in an understandable amount of devastation and was now largely populated by underground monsters. The game prior to that was a sort of Robinson Caruso meets The King in Yellow meets Apocolypto themed Isle of Dread Campaign revolving around the parties attempting to survive dinosaur and tiger infested jungles.
So far many of my campaigns have had a very strong emphasis on religious sectarian conflict. The idea being that evil clerics could easily hide among good aligned clerics with the proper application of spells, id est faith and prayers, concealing them from detection.
What about atheist perspectives though? I mean I know that this may be somewhat of a hard sell in some of the more commonly familiar lands. Are there any cultures in the Flaness that either havn't been exposed to the Gods regard them as outright superstition or as simply another form of magic?
As far as Prestige classes, the Ur-Preist comes to mind from 3rd Ed. but they seem more like religious apostates then actual atheists. The Archivist also seems like it may be a good fit but they seem to have a more Cthulhu-espue quality of someone seeking lost or forbidden knowledge then anything else. Now in 2nd Ed there are clerics of concepts and racial pride sorts of priests and they seem like something of a representation of a be all you can be style inspirational figure so they would work fairly well. I guess the point is that there doesn't seem to be any shortage of inspiration for NPC classes, or even players should they choose to use them but the real challenge is looking where to run the setting at. Any suggestions?
In one iteration of the Scarlet Brotherhood that I read about, they were a society which was largely atheistic. The monks were all about self-enlightenment and clerics in the nation were looked down upon by the elite as weak-minded fools. Clerics of the Suel gods existed, but except for these low-level devotees and a very small number of civilians who could be tricked into following them, everyone else just ignored them. Anyone known to follow a god was considered weak or crazy.
It also seems to me that Jaran Krimeah, the Mage of the Vale, runs a fairly atheistic society. I don't recall that sourcebook mentioning any particular deities that are revered by him, his forces, or his Valley Elf allies. That society also seems to be all about the power of 'self', focused in their wizardly overlord.
Atheism is manifestly a false belief in a world where the dieties are tangible, material, and present in day-to-day life. Even the merest 0-level orison granted to a cleric or priest is evidence of the existence of the dieties. So, for atheism to exist in Greyhawk, it would require a culture that refuses to acknowledge the effects of divine magic.
Perhaps they think it is all a sham. That divine casters are simply arcane casters who made up this whole Gods thing. But that only goes so far in a world where dieties can send forth Avatars and physically manifest. It would be hard to pull something like this off in Greyhawk, or other campaign worlds.
As you said, the Ur-Priest is more an aposate who want to steal the divine power, not worship it. In my own campaign, the Theocracy of the Pale was originally dedicated to Pholtus, but a campaign by the church of Hextor took over that country more than a century ago. More recently, the people of the Pale threw out the Hextorians and have basically said a pox on all deities and rejected their past as a Theocracy. In that campaign, they have prohibited any divine servant (cleric or priest or paladin) from owning land, participating in the government, and churches have to pay their fair share of taxes. But they still acknowledge the validity and power of the deities as both real and obvious.
Perhaps if you had an isolated realm (say, a large island, perhaps the size of Manhattan or Vancouver or similar) where long ago a Mage of Power cast a spell that blocks all divine magic. There might be legends of the 'gods' but there has been no evidence of divine magic in more than twenty generations. The people there could believe that the 'gods' are simply myth. But it takes a lot of work to make this concept work in the World of Greyhawk.
As you said, the Ur-Priest is more an aposate who want to steal the divine power, not worship it.
True, to a degree, but not in all cases, however. The Ur-Flan of the Kingdom of Caerdiralor were known to worship Tiamat -- even those you style "Ur-Priest."
So while this statement may be true of some, it isn't true of all.
Even Vecna served -- in a fashion -- Myk'slok, the Serpent, one of the Ancient Brethren -- an order of beings akin to the Gods.
In truth, Atheism means that you do not acknowledge a "higher power." For you, YOU are the higher power. Even Vecna once acknowledged a "higher power."
As others have pointed out, atheists in a magical medićval society must be either ignorant or insane. However, iconoclasts are certainly possible: those who acknowledge the existence of powerful beings but refuse to worship them. I think Justinian Lorinar's Skepticism movement would fall under that category.
It also seems to me that Jaran Krimeah, the Mage of the Vale, runs a fairly atheistic society. I don't recall that sourcebook mentioning any particular deities that are revered by him, his forces, or his Valley Elf allies. That society also seems to be all about the power of 'self', focused in their wizardly overlord.
SirXaris
I was thinking this morning about how magic is characterized being designated as either "Divine" vs "Arcane" and how the Grayhawk pantheon is flush with examples of mortals elevating themselves to divine status. This got me thinking about defilers from Darksun which are pretty similar ideally. I find it funny that you mention Jaran because I was actually considering him for another campaign thread involving something like the Fountain of Youth for the legends surrounding Puerto Rico’s first governor, Ponce De’Leon. I may go this route because I could actually tie in both threads. Jaran is rumored to have some pretty outsider views on magic but then again I suppose you would if you’re like 20th level.
masterarminas wrote:
Atheism is manifestly a false belief in a world where the dieties are tangible, material, and present in day-to-day life. Even the merest 0-level orison granted to a cleric or priest is evidence of the existence of the dieties. So, for atheism to exist in Greyhawk, it would require a culture that refuses to acknowledge the effects of divine magic.
Perhaps they think it is all a sham. That divine casters are simply arcane casters who made up this whole Gods thing. But that only goes so far in a world where dieties can send forth Avatars and physically manifest. It would be hard to pull something like this off in Greyhawk, or other campaign worlds. Master Arminas
This is the cleaving point I was thinking about last night that got me to thinking about Defilers from Darksun. What does it mean to be elevated to the status of a god? The ability to tap into some sort of external source that allows an immensely powerful being to confer power on others? That would make a bit of sense but then why would the trappings be mandatory? Not uniform in that they all have the same required components as would Arcane magic but in that rituals are required to perform a specific effect. If you have the ability to impart power on others why make such requirements. Or is it possibly the belief of the followers that imparts this ability? If this is so then in what why does this differ from Psionics?
I love your take on the Photines of the Pale. They are one of my favorite groups to use because of their inherent complexity.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
True, to a degree, but not in all cases, however. The Ur-Flan of the Kingdom of Caerdiralor were known to worship Tiamat -- even those you style "Ur-Priest."
So while this statement may be true of some, it isn't true of all.
I was referring to specific prestige class. I don’t know if they are actually attached to any specific sect of Ur-Flan in spite of the familiar sounding name.
DMPrata wrote:
As others have pointed out, atheists in a magical medićval society must be either ignorant or insane. However, iconoclasts are certainly possible: those who acknowledge the existence of powerful beings but refuse to worship them. I think Justinian Lorinar's Skepticism movement would fall under that category.
I will look into Urnst some more. I’ve been wanting to do some sort of tie in with that since the “What about Urnst thread?”
Thank you guys, I appreciate the feedback. Great stuff here.
However, iconoclasts are certainly possible: those who acknowledge the existence of powerful beings but refuse to worship them.
In the Pathfinder world of Golarion, the nation of Rahadoum is just such a place. They acknowledge the existence of the Gods, but refuse to worship them, considering it to be of little use to do so.
However, iconoclasts are certainly possible: those who acknowledge the existence of powerful beings but refuse to worship them.
In the Pathfinder world of Golarion, the nation of Rahadoum is just such a place. They acknowledge the existence of the Gods, but refuse to worship them, considering it to be of little use to do so.
Just so. To this view, gods are simply beings that have achieved a great level of power. You don't bow down and worship Boccob any more than you would Mordenkainen.
Just my opinion of course, but even in a campaign where divine magic is not that widely spread, the people who would be most likely to be atheist or iconoclastic -- the upper classes -- are the same people who would probably be receiving the greatest exposure to divine magic, and direct evidence of the existence of the gods. There are, of course those who would still be skeptical as to the nature of the magic they were seeing.
As as been stated, atheism is kind of a hard sell in a world where faith can be rewarded with immediate, tangible manifestations of a god's power. Atheism, the way we typically define it, simply does not make sense.
More likely, you run into skepticism from people who refuse to worship a god or combination of the gods for whatever personal reasons. They may be the village crank, an embittered former worshipper, or a perfectionist who sees them as less than perfect.
Darn, I always liked Hitchens' writing. One article had said it was too bad he was unable to write the two most recent obits (Haval and Kim). That would have been interesting.
IronGolem mentioned the Athar (who are an otherworldly faction, but they could be visiting Oerth to investigate Zagyg's GodTrap, to forge an alliance with the Skeptics of Nellix-Town, learn the secrets of the ur-priests, hide out from the vengeance of alien gods, theocratic races, or rival factions, or any number of other reasons).
The Athar acknowledge the gods exist and acknowledge they have power - they simply argue that the gods (or powers as they insist on calling them), quarrelsome and petty as they often are, could not possibly be truly divine or worthy of worship. Rather, they interpret them as entities who have stumbled upon a source of great power. But merely having power, they argue, does not make an entity inherently worthy of respect, let alone worship. Any number of wizards, liches, demons, and planar rulers have power similar to what gods claim, but most would agree that this doesn't automatically mean they merit reverence.
And they have a point. After all, there are many examples on Oerth of gods who were once mortal. If Vecna, Iuz, Zagyg, Zuoken, Ye-Cind, Al'Akbar, and so forth weren't worthy of worship before their apotheosis, what changed - other than the acquisition of mere power - that makes them worthy of it afterward? Why does religion have to enter into it?
Of course, in a world where divine proxies and clerics wield potentially deadly miracles against unbelievers and secure the loyalty of the populace with vital services like healing, create and purify food and water spells, and cure disease magic, openly questioning the divinity of the extraplanar entities who demand worship and claim to have created the world and its people might be very dangerous. But I don't think it's necessarily irrational, and there's no reason to confine the philosophy to a few cranks.
As a summary of potential atheist factions on Oerth: the Skeptics of Nellix, visiting Athar, ur-priests, cultists of various fiend lords or cosmic horrors who oppose the gods, perhaps some alien races like spell weavers, ethergaunts, illithids, aboleths, and cloakers, the beastmen of the Amedio Jungle (who deny not just the divinity of gods, but the very existence of other planes and magic of any kind), and possibly some members of the Rhennee.
I'm still not convinced that atheism needs to necessarily be as unlikely as some are stating here. The average village priest would be able to cast a handful of relatively minor spells which may or may not, depending on your interpretation of spell descriptions show visible effects. Atheists could reasonably dismiss such spells as sleight of hand, trickery, or arcane-based sorcery without accepting the existence of any divine power.
If you want to portray a more gritty setting (as I have toyed with doing myself) you may wish to dress up cleric spells with literary devices that make them appear more scientific than magical. An animal messenger spell, for example, functions in a similar way to the trained ravens of Westeros for those who have the knowledge and healing spells can symbolise the application of prayer alongside secret poultices and potions. Even Raise Dead could actually be a ritual application of medical skill to someone so close to death as to appear dead to most. All of this does require some narrative hand waving but in such a world, an atheist could deny the existence of the gods by calling such spells or rituals trickery. You could even imagine a scenario where a village priest believed the science of the "rituals" while becoming disaffected with the divine explanations.
Granted, such atheists would likely be rare in large towns and cities and once people are exposed to priests that can cast higher level spells such as Flame Strike, doubters would likely be forced to reconsider but at village level I think there is room for some doubters.
The average village priest would be able to cast a handful of relatively minor spells which may or may not, depending on your interpretation of spell descriptions show visible effects. Atheists could reasonably dismiss such spells as sleight of hand, trickery, or arcane-based sorcery without accepting the existence of any divine power.
True, but only to a degree.
Those actually healed -- even if only to a minor degree -- would undoubtedly "believe."
Conversely, those who don't believe in "the gods," would be just as unlikely to believe in arcane magic as well. So, ascribing the cures to 'sleight of hand or trickery' is a possibility, but I don't think they would ascribe it to "arcane-based sorcery."
After all, an isolated village is much more likely to have a "village priest," than than it is to having a "village magician." This would make such "atheistic peasants" much more aware of divine magic than of arcane sorcery.
Those actually healed -- even if only to a minor degree -- would undoubtedly "believe."
They may believe they've been healed. They not believe that gods did it.
Or... they may "believe," but they wouldn't necessarily believe. Because when you put quotes around a word, it implies you don't mean it literally. So they may "believe" in some vague, non-literal sense that doesn't make them theists.
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Conversely, those who don't believe in "the gods," would be just as unlikely to believe in arcane magic as well.
I don't see any reason why that would be the case. The issue isn't that people would necessarily be skeptical about magic - that's just part of the laws of nature on Oerth. The issue is that they're skeptical about beings that they've never seen who are supposedly much more powerful than mortals, when it's simpler to believe that mortals are tapping into their own power through their ignorant superstition. If you know magic exists, then Occam's razor suggests that magic is enough to explain magical effects without having to bring gods into it.
This is even more true if you allow clerics who are dedicated to abstract forces or philosophies, rather than concrete deities. If someone with no divine patron is able to replicate "divine" magic, doesn't that show that divinities need not exist to explain a cleric's powers?
But regardless, if you've seen magic, but you haven't seen the gods, which is harder to believe in? I think it'd be much easier to be an atheist than someone who doesn't believe in magic. And, of course, if you've witnessed neither magic nor the gods first hand, you may believe in neither.
Or say you're from the village of Orlane, and you discover that the clerics of Merikka who you've trusted your whole life are actually servants of a very much non-divine spirit naga (as happened in the module Against the Cult of the Reptile God). That might be enough to turn the whole village to atheism, no? Because if it could happen in Orlane, it could happen anywhere.
Or say you learned that the priests of Stern Alia are actually frauds who haven't had any magic in years, as was revealed in Lost Shrine of Tamoachan.
Or say you know for a fact that a mere mortal has imprisoned nine supposed demigods beneath his castle. Doesn't that prove that the gods are frauds? Or what happens if the followers of those nine demigods all find out that their clerics don't have any magic any more? Might they not conclude that they never truly had magic, especially as the years turn into decades?
What if you discover that the difference between a mighty clerical spellcaster and a simple village healer isn't piousness, but mere experience? Anyone who learns that clerical spellcasting depends more on practice than fidelity to the gods' plan may suspect that the power comes not from any gods, but from within.
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After all, an isolated village is much more likely to have a "village priest," than than it is to having a "village magician."
That depends on the DM, really. There's no inherent reason why clerics should be more common than arcane magic-users. If gods don't have a lot of power to spare, but simple cantrips are easy enough to learn, the reverse might be true.
...the people who would be most likely to be atheist or iconoclastic -- the upper classes -- are the same people who would probably be receiving the greatest exposure to divine magic...
Interesting point. During the reign of the Pharaoh Akhenaten when he over threw the Preisthood to establish his own religion, the only segment of the population to convert wholesale were the upper classes. Religion is as often about politics as it is about sincere belief. I doubt the upper classes would be were the real body of skepticism lay. In private sure, they may have their doubts but publicly they would have far to much to loose by expressing any such beliefs.
Icarus wrote:
I will not worship the Goa'uld. My Jaffa allies won't do it either. I am of the Tau'ri, and we shall offer resistance without pause, or hesitation.
I ran a prior game which involved an Ether Gaunt masquerading as a god on the Isle of Dread.
IronGolem wrote:
You might be interested in the Athar faction from Planescape.
I really like these guys. I'm glad you mentioned them because I never had any of the Plane Scape stuff.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
Conversely, those who don't believe in "the gods," would be just as unlikely to believe in arcane magic as well. So, ascribing the cures to 'sleight of hand or trickery' is a possibility, but I don't think they would ascribe it to "arcane-based sorcery."
After all, an isolated village is much more likely to have a "village priest," than than it is to having a "village magician." This would make such "atheistic peasants" much more aware of divine magic than of arcane sorcery.
I don't know if that is true, there is a distinct difference between Arcane and Divine magic and that is the religious trappings that accompany the spells. While both have demonstrable effects, only one is asking you to believe in a higher authority. That is the direction that I am interested in following up on, especially after reading some of the posts here. The idea centers around the source of power that the gods pull their ability to grant spells from. This direction can relate to the Seekers search for the Throne of the Gods I believe and incorporate some other ideas I've had milling about my head for a while now.
The village isolated in the wilderness would be more likely to have a priest then a magician but that's because of organized religions funding missionary programs. The kind of secular education program required to put a town wizard in every village isn't really something that any group existing in Greyhawk canon currently undertakes which makes sense considering the games analogous time period to real world Earth. The economics of it aren't conducive to it, there are to many people that distrust magic and to many political powers aligned against you to prevent something like that from ever coming to fruition should you attempt it.
Rasgon, are there any games you aren't intimately familiar with?
I like Rasgon's reasoning and would like to add to it.
In my own campaign, any character class with access to divine magic must gain it from a god of some sort. There are no divine casters accessing such magical ability from a concept, ideal, or other non-entity. I was irritated when D&D first introduced such a concept and am still miffed about it. (It seemed like a tip of the hat to spiritualists, naturalists, and other atheistic attitudes of the real world. Why they thought it was necessary in a fantasy world beats me. I don't worship Thor, but I have no problem playing a fantasy character that does. Why would a real-world atheist object to playing a character that worshipped a make-believe god?)
Any way, looking at the spiritualists of the real world like Wiccans, Druids, and practitioners of Fung Schui, we see that it is very possible for people to attribute supernatural events to perfectly natural causes. The three groups I mentioned above believe that seemingly supernatural power can be accessed via attunment with spirits, nature, or the cosmos respectively. It seems that this type of belief could just as easily be applied in a fantasy world with real gods. Any evidence of such power can be attributed, in the mind of the individual witnessing it, to a personal access to perfectly natural powers. There could be a group of people who firmly believe that the power they have comes from their attunement with nature, spirits, or the latent power of the cosmos. Perhaps said power is secretly being granted by some (evil) deity for its own nefarious purposes without those so gifted being aware of its true nature.
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(It seemed like a tip of the hat to spiritualists, naturalists, and other atheistic attitudes of the real world. Why they thought it was necessary in a fantasy world beats me. I don't worship Thor, but I have no problem playing a fantasy character that does. Why would a real-world atheist object to playing a character that worshipped a make-believe god?)