Does anyone know if any linguistic maps of the Flanaess have been produced over the years?---mapping language frequency (a la the 1e MM: Common, Uncommon, Rare, Very Rare) by proximity to language centers (Elvish in Celene, etc.) and to cultural migrations/centers (Baklunish in Ull, Zief, etc.)? _________________ Allan Grohe<br />https://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html<br />https://grodog.blogspot.com/
Sorry Rip, neither: a geographic map with language distribution on it. _________________ Allan Grohe<br />https://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html<br />https://grodog.blogspot.com/
Alan, what languages do you want on it? I could probably make one up without too much difficulty. I started one but it was mainly covered by Common.
All of them, of course, smillan :D I'll probably start to work on sketching something next weekend..... _________________ Allan Grohe<br />https://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html<br />https://grodog.blogspot.com/
Yeah, I just filled in a map I made using the map from the 1980 Gazetteer showing the nations with their borders. Even using the additional non-canon languages listed in the articles rasgon linked to above, it is one boring freakin' map. There need to be more Oeridian dialects like Keolandish and Velondi to make it more interesting. I always kind of assumed that the dialects listed in the LGG were more like a sampling instead of a comprehensive list. It did make me ask myself what do they speak in Stonehold? Colten? Whatever the Arapahi speak?
Thanks for your pointers and suggestions. I'll hopefully get back to this idea over the holidays.... _________________ Allan Grohe<br />https://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html<br />https://grodog.blogspot.com/
... It did make me ask myself what do they speak in Stonehold? Colten? Whatever the Arapahi speak?
-The Rovers are specifically mentioned as Flan speakers, I assume the Coltens would be, too. Probably closely related dialects (80%?). Their intelligibility with the Flan which is found in the west (e.g., Geoff) would have to be low- maybe 30%?
FWIW, I use a similar system for "Orcish," since I doubt that those of the Pomarj, Iuz, or Bone March would be 100% intelligible, although I never bothered to work out anything specific, except that dialect of the Death Moon in Bone March is 80% intelligible to those on Lendore Isle (which might have been overly generous, but too late now... ).
I created a very rough (I was lazy) map of the Flanaess with a textual placement of nations and their languages (using the LGG as reference) here. I know a more graphical representation would probably be better, but it would have gotten complex and I was already be lazy. ;)
The abbreviations I use for the languages are:
Ancient Baklunish (AB)
Amedi (Am)
Ancient Suloise (AS)
Cold Tongue (CT)
Common (C)
Druidic (Dr)
Dwarven (Dw)
Elven (El)
Ferral (F)
Flan (Fl)
Gnome (Gn)
Goblin (Gb)
Halfling (H)
Keolandish (K)
Lendorian (L)
Lendorian Elven (LE)
Low Baklunish (LB)
Nyrondese (N)
Old Oeridian (OO)
Orc (Or)
Olman (Ol)
Ordai (Ord)
Rhopan (Rh)
Sylvan (Sl)
Touv (T)
Ulagha (Ul)
Velondi (V)
I have a few issues with things as they stand... There are some areas (like Verbobonc and the Sea Barons) that only list Common. Isn't Common more of a trade language than something that would be a nation's primary language?
Also, there are some nations that you would think would have a particular language listed, yet don't. For instance, the Sea Barons spent some 400 years as a state of the Great Kingdom, but doesn't have Old Oeridian as a listed language.
Furthermore, what about the primary languages of the Nyr Dyv area? It seems that an Oeridian offshoot should be the primary spoken language in the area, but aside from Velondi to the west and Nyrondese to the east, there seems to be no Oeridian languages in the area. At the very least, Old Oeridian should have been used as an official written language for these nations during the time they were part of the Great Kingdom. Also, I'd think that there would be another Oeridian offshoot (Ferrondese, let's say) that would have been the spoken in Furyondy, the Shield Lands, Verbobonc, Dyvers, Greyhawk and the Wild Coast. And perhaps Nyrondese was spoken as far west as the Duchy and County of Urnst.
Common has been, well, common for over 500 years. Those areas that don't have another language listed simply lack isolated pockets of insular peasants who never adopted Common. Old Oeridian may have been used in the western Aerdi provinces prior to 1 CY, but what does it matter today?
1. Common is used primarily as a trade tongue, and its usage is like Latin in historical middle-ages, except more used and in many xcases also used as a living language.
2. Common has become an international language, strong enough to drive out many local languages, and become the primary spoken language in many countries.
Canon seems to strongly support 2). The situation then might be a lot like Russian across the former USSR. It is spoken by most people on an everyday basis, and has supplanted a lot (but by no means all) of local languages. I am simplifying, of course, and Common got its status not from conquest, but because it is...better? More flexible? Like English nowadays? Maybe the Great Kingdom adopted it as an official language early on and then everybody jumped in because it was practical? _________________ Lisbon Portugal<br />
1. Common is used primarily as a trade tongue, and its usage is like Latin in historical middle-ages, except more used and in many xcases also used as a living language.
2. Common has become an international language, strong enough to drive out many local languages, and become the primary spoken language in many countries.
Canon seems to strongly support 2). The situation then might be a lot like Russian across the former USSR. It is spoken by most people on an everyday basis, and has supplanted a lot (but by no means all) of local languages. I am simplifying, of course, and Common got its status not from conquest, but because it is...better? More flexible? Like English nowadays? Maybe the Great Kingdom adopted it as an official language early on and then everybody jumped in because it was practical?
-IIRC, Common was a cross between Baklunish and Oeridian which started on the frontier ("modern" Bissel?), and then spread, probably for the reasons you give.
Though I think that it's not 100% plausible that it could be SO strong as to replace local languages as much as seems implied in canon (at least 1st and 2nd, which I use), but there may be other factors here. As mentioned in some other thread, the Oeridians were quite familiar with the Baklunish from before the great migrations, and that may have also been a factor.
In my games, we used other languages as well, never making Common so strong as to entirely replace other languages, but never allowing other languages to make Common useless, or to make this a problem at the DMs table, unless I wanted to introduce it as such in an adventure. A cross between the two options, in some way. _________________ Lisbon Portugal<br />
Though I think that it's not 100% plausible that it could be SO strong as to replace local languages as much as seems implied in canon (at least 1st and 2nd, which I use), but there may be other factors here. As mentioned in some other thread, the Oeridians were quite familiar with the Baklunish from before the great migrations, and that may have also been a factor...
-It change relatively quickly, but I accepted it in part because...
JoseFreitas wrote:
...Though I think that it's not 100% plausible that it could be SO strong as to replace local languages as much as seems implied in canon (at least 1st and 2nd, which I use), but there may be other factors here. As mentioned in some other thread, the Oeridians were quite familiar with the Baklunish from before the great migrations, and that may have also been a factor.
In my games, we used other languages as well, never making Common so strong as to entirely replace other languages, but never allowing other languages to make Common useless, or to make this a problem at the DMs table, unless I wanted to introduce it as such in an adventure. A cross between the two options, in some way.
-The WOG Glossography and Dragon #57 (IIRC- the one with Boris' fairy-winged dragon hatching, as an under-dressed brunette looks on) point point out the Nyrondese was still the most common language in Nyrond.
1. Common is used primarily as a trade tongue, and its usage is like Latin in historical middle-ages, except more used and in many xcases also used as a living language.
2. Common has become an international language, strong enough to drive out many local languages, and become the primary spoken language in many countries.
I think they're both true. IMC most places formerly part of the Great Kingdom, which is most of the Flanaess speak dialects derived from Middle Common. In addition, the Overking's Common, which is the standard Common is used like Latin as a common tongue between people who speak different dialects of Common or other languages, as well as by the ruling, religious and merchant classes.
Most countries currently or formerly in Keoland's sphere of influence speak some dialect of Keolandish, or another dialect of Old Oeridian.
Similarly, when I see Flan, I take it to mean both a local Flan derived dialect (This is seen in number of countries; Geoff, Sterich, Perrenland, Tenh, Stonehold, and Blackmoor) and the Ancient Flan which is still preserved by Druids and whatnot.
...when I see Flan, I take it to mean both a local Flan derived dialect (This is seen in number of countries; Geoff, Sterich, Perrenland, Tenh, Stonehold, and Blackmoor) and the Ancient Flan which is still preserved by Druids and whatnot.
-It's never come up, but I've always assumed that Geoff's Flann would have been pretty different the Rovers and Coltens, which would in turn have been somewhat different from Tehn's.
...when I see Flan, I take it to mean both a local Flan derived dialect (This is seen in number of countries; Geoff, Sterich, Perrenland, Tenh, Stonehold, and Blackmoor) and the Ancient Flan which is still preserved by Druids and whatnot.
-It's never come up, but I've always assumed that Geoff's Flann would have been pretty different the Rovers and Coltens, which would in turn have been somewhat different from Tehn's.
That's my assumption too. At least 3000 years of linguistic drift will do that for you I also assume that the "international" druid community has kept fairly mobile and in contact so the purer Flan language that they speak has stayed that way, not that some Flan hillman in Perrenland would understand it at all, or even recognize it as related to what he speaks.
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).
I also assume that the "international" druid community has kept fairly mobile and in contact so the purer Flan language that they speak has stayed that way, not that some Flan hillman in Perrenland would understand it at all, or even recognize it as related to what he speaks.