I mentioned Atalya (David Howery's D&D version of Atlantis from Dragon #214) in several places in the monsters of Oerth thread, actually.
In the carnivorous ape entry:
Quote:
Before the continent of Atalya sunk beneath the Solnor Ocean ten millennia ago, it built colonies on the eastern coast of Hepmonaland. When the ocean drank their homeland, the stranded Atalyans walled themselves off from the rest of their new continent, shutting off their lives and gene pools from outside influences. For countless generations they remained in their walled cities, breeding their males to be fierce protectors and their females to be wise administrators, until male Atalyans had become degenerate brutes scarcely distinguishable from the gorillas who roamed the forests outside. As the millennia turned and some of the few remaining Atalyan cities crumbled due to external attack or internal revolution, the degenerate, ape-like Atalyans spread into the jungle, seemingly little different from the true apes, though larger and smarter, and used to eating meat.
And in the dolphin entry:
Quote:
The lost continent of Atalya, myths say, sank not all at once but in stages. After the bulk of the land disappeared beneath the Solnor Ocean, cursed by the most ancient gods, an archipelago remained. Called Olefin or, occasionally, Procanis, these bright isles lasted for another age before they were doomed by the experiments of the Elder Elves. The Sinking Isle in the Bay of Gates is the last remnant of this land, legends say.
There are human myths that claim that when the continent of Atalya sank beneath the Solnor Ocean, its inhabitants, praying to the gods of ocean for salvation, became dolphins, sleek, tailed, and finned. Drawmij has opined that the dolphin ancestors were related to the quaggoths who once dominated Telchuria before the polar axis shifted; Drawmij believes that quaggoths were the first and most primal race of mammalian humanoids. Most other sages assume the cetecean ancestors were more like giant beavers in form.
This is all myth and legend, not to be read as objective fact, but the point is that I saw it as a continent that existed in the Solnor Ocean, of which the Sinking Isle was a much later remnant. The Chronicle of the Black Moon backstory could easily fit in.
Based on the ideas that New Emperya is/was hidden and the equator found on the JG maps, and the New Emperya map which only covers a fraction of the continent, I placed that fraction of the continent on the equator in the middle of the two oceans.
...though for some reason my Google Earth program keeps making it smaller than the streched area I made it which of course should cross the equator. I'm talking about that green patch in the lower right at the N10 degree line...which puts it due south of Fireland.
I mentioned Atalya (David Howery's D&D version of Atlantis from Dragon #214) in several places in the monsters of Oerth thread, actually.
Yep, I saw your posts and it made me think the Black Moon Chronicles Atlanteans could be from there.
Raymond wrote:
Based on the ideas that New Emperya is/was hidden and the equator found on the JG maps, and the New Emperya map which only covers a fraction of the continent, I placed that fraction of the continent on the equator in the middle of the two oceans.
...though for some reason my Google Earth program keeps making it smaller than the streched area I made it which of course should cross the equator. I'm talking about that green patch in the lower right at the N10 degree line...which puts it due south of Fireland.
That makes sense, though I don't get the feel that the area is tropical in R1-4/I12
Based on the ideas that New Emperya is/was hidden and the equator found on the JG maps, and the New Emperya map which only covers a fraction of the continent, I placed that fraction of the continent on the equator in the middle of the two oceans.
Frank Mentzer has said that Aquaria/New Empyrea was based on the "Valon" area in the Judges Guild maps (and it is, the geography and even the place names are more or less identical), which is actually as far north as the map gets, on the top row of the map. I'd say it's about the same latitude as the Thillonrian Peninsula, which I guess gives some support to the idea of putting it in Fireland.
This is Aquaria:
This is the northern half of the Judges Guild realm of the Wilderlands. You can see the "Aquaria" region on the very top of it, in the center just to the east of the central sea:
Yeah, I'm starting to think Fireland is the best location for Aquaria now, too. The climate is right, the size is fairly large--large enough to be considered a continent, and it's in the right direction--east of the Flanaess.
But I didn't get the impression that it was that far north from the JG map:
It's on the very top of that map, though (area 5, and just above it), about the same latitude as Blackmoor. That seems pretty far north to me. It's about as far north as the Ament Tundra is south.
I guess by the map scale it's not that far north, but it depends on how big the planet is.
(Note that to post an image, you have to put the image file in between the [img] tags, not the name of the webpage. The image file will have a suffix like .jpg or .gif or .png, while the webpage will have a suffix like html.)
But I didn't get the impression that it was that far north from the JG map:
It's on the very top of that map, though (area 5, and just above it), about the same latitude as Blackmoor. That seems pretty far north to me. It's about as far north as the Ament Tundra is south.
I guess by the map scale it's not that far north, but it depends on how big the planet is.
(Note that to post an image, you have to put the image file in between the [img] tags, not the name of the webpage. The image file will have a suffix like .jpg or .gif or .png, while the webpage will have a suffix like html.)
Is there anything analogous to the Gulf Stream that might keep it warmer than the latitude would otherwise suggest?
Is there anything analogous to the Gulf Stream that might keep it warmer than the latitude would otherwise suggest?
If it's Fireland how about the ton of freakin' volcanoes? Seriously though, the western portion of the Dramidj is "strangely warm" so Fireland could be getting the same thing.
Is there anything analogous to the Gulf Stream that might keep it warmer than the latitude would otherwise suggest?
If it's Fireland how about the ton of freakin' volcanoes? Seriously though, the western portion of the Dramidj is "strangely warm" so Fireland could be getting the same thing.
Yeah, if Fireland is analagous to Iceland, vulcanism alone would be enough to make it habitable. Then again, since this is D&D there can also be gates to the Elemental Plane of Fire, magical enchantments keeping the place warm, and so on in addition to natural geothermal/volcanic activity.
I see now they both do. I only needed to display one map.
In any case, to try and get a ball-park idea of the scale, I used Paint to chop out the 100 mile distance, turn it 90 degrees and paste the 100 mile arrow from top to bottom. Then I tried to figure how how big that should be on my Google Earth program and bam, I've got the Central Western Region of the Continent of Aquaria...and I can only assume that if that is the Central Western Region, then I'm missing Central Eastern, Northwestern, Northeastern, Southwestern, and Southeastern regions and I can pull from a later JG map for those. Even if Mentzer's own map doesn't follow the rest of the JG map, it's all I've got for now.
Wow, my concept of Beyond the Flanaess keeps spiraling the more I read this thread. So the OJ#26 map needs errata'd? Ugh. And it looks like hopefully through this discussion someone will be able to consolodate all this new/old info into a more coherent Oerth map. Keep it up, guys.
This is all myth and legend, not to be read as objective fact, but the point is that I saw it as a continent that existed in the Solnor Ocean, of which the Sinking Isle was a much later remnant. The Chronicle of the Black Moon backstory could easily fit in.
Now I have to find that DRAGON Anthology CD-ROM ;)
For what it's worth, in my game The Sinking Isle, Turucambi, and ruins beneath the Jungle of Lost Ships all hold similar designs and artifacts. They bear an uncanny resemblance to items found in the ruins on Kule (Celene).
The Dragon article is much more extensive, portraying the continent at various stages of its existence and leaving open the possibility that it's still around. I was mostly just using it as a name to conjure with. I like the idea of Oerth having it because no other setting has claimed it, and all of David Howery's other articles were set on his version of Oerth.
Wow, my concept of Beyond the Flanaess keeps spiraling the more I read this thread. So the OJ#26 map needs errata'd? Ugh. And it looks like hopefully through this discussion someone will be able to consolodate all this new/old info into a more coherent Oerth map. Keep it up, guys.
I wouldn't say it needs errata, although I'm now starting to think that the peninsula in that article is probably not the best place for those locations. It's probably best if that whole peninsula, or at least most of it, is part of the Shaofeng Empire. This would make for a clear "organic" (as Rasgon puts it ) path for that ethnic group to the island of Ryuujin.
Since the Sagard the Barbarian/Yarth locations are actually very small (they take up basically the same amount of space as the Great Kingdom and Tilvanot Peninsula on Oerth), they can easily be placed elsewhere, perhaps in the very south of Western Oerik, although there's no way to make the geography exactly as it is written in Erik Mona's old writeup, but that's because he wrongly assumed the Sagard books took place on Oerth, when in fact they did not (because he was missing the second book where this becomes clear).
My biggest problem with the fit is that Fex is supposed to be in a desert, and there really isn't room for a desert there of any consequence. The desert that Duicarthan put on his map makes the Bright Desert look like the Sahara. That's more of a large sandy beach than a desert. It looks like that might have been a problem in the original Sagard books too, though.
You could expand Shaofeng to fill the entire peninsula, or you could just make Ryuujin be somewhere closer to Shaofeng. My preference would be the latter. I think there are better uses for the island chain off the coast of Zindia.
My biggest problem with the fit is that Fex is supposed to be in a desert, and there really isn't room for a desert there of any consequence. The desert that Duicarthan put on his map makes the Bright Desert look like the Sahara. That's more of a large sandy beach than a desert. It looks like that might have been a problem in the original Sagard books too, though.
Yeah, it's a problem with the Sagard books. It might be better to just keep all of those locations off of Oerth entirely and just leave them in Yarth. Trying to fit in a bunch of locations that were never supposed to be on Oerth in the first place seems to create more problems than it solves.
rasgon wrote:
You could expand Shaofeng to fill the entire peninsula, or you could just make Ryuujin be somewhere closer to Shaofeng. My preference would be the latter. I think there are better uses for the island chain off the coast of Zindia.
I think that's taking too many liberties with the established map though. Even if it's not the best spot for a "GH-Japan," all of the published works (admittedly, not very many and scant on the details) put it there. The dreaded Dragon Annual map called it by a Japanese name and the brief description of "A densely populated island nation of fishermen, warriors, and poets" while not describing things that are exclusive to a Japanese culture, is a pretty concise description of Japan nonetheless. I find it easier to work with what we've been given than to rearrange everything, especially if it's to make room for something that's not supposed to be there anyway.
If that entire peninsula is part of Shaofeng, then that island south of Zahind is close to Shaofeng. And it's an easy, straightforward explanation for why they're there.
Haazheel Thorn is the living god of the Black Moon. Son of the Lord of Darkness, this high-powered archimage claims to be vassal of the emperor. He took up residence in the barony of Moork and is always followed by the baron.
Wherever he goes, Haazheel Thorn remains in contact with his faithful worshipers. He won as well the possibility to perform a fate ritual as if he were a fate. (not sure what this means)
Haazheel Thorn can instantly handle his religious empire through his priests who serve faithfully. Sitting in the Hall of a Thousand Prayers is a thousand priests who simultaneously assist by serving as both a thousand eyes and a thousand ears. Nothing more escapes then to his prodigious memory.
In the Black Moon Chronicles, Haazheel Thorn is the son of Lucifer, and manipulates the main character, Wismerhill, into assassinating the Emperor of Lynn. Once that is done, he takes over the Empire and then tries to open the gates of Hell beneath the empire and establishing an infernal dominion over the world, while also disgusting God and destroying His works. He is defeated by Wismerhill, who had turned on Thorn once he realized Thorn's true intentions. Wismerhill manages to kill Thorn with the aid of the archmage Methraton, who manages to block the flow of power from Haazheel Thorn's temple on the moon, making him vulnerable to Wismerhill's attacks.
I've been mulling over how to make Thorn's backstory work for Oerth. Froideval makes no distinction between demons and devils in his work, and often combines aspects of both in the story. While there is no Lucifer in the D&D game, there are several figures that could work: Graz'zt, Asmodeus, Astaroth, and Mephistopheles.
Graz'zt being his father makes things complicated--it makes him brother to Iuz for one, but he's also then too similar to Iuz. I guess you could say such ambitions "run in the family," though.
Astaroth is another suitable candidate, but he's supposedly dead.
Mephistopheles works well, but I think Asmodeus works best. Thorn's plan to build a false cult to destroy the work of a good deity seems like something Asmodeus would do (especially in light of Chris Pramas' A Guide to Hell, a far superior work to Tyrants of the Nine Hells). It also differentiates him from Iuz, and gives the area another differentiation: while demons play a large role in both the Flanaess and the Sundered Empire, this gives devils a major role. It could even be explained in terms of the Blood War as the devils trying to catch up or head off the demons' presence on Oerth.
Last edited by Bluebomber4evr on Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
If I recall correctly, The Best of The Dragon #1 (don't recall the date, but it was the one with the red cover from back in the 80s) had a section giving background and stats for some real-world devils including Lucifer/Satan). So, if you really wanted to include him in Greyhawk, you could...
Fair enough. I'll move the "Nippon" discussion over here.
Quote:
Astaroth is another suitable candidate, but he's supposedly dead.
Astaroth was identified as the demon lord of prophecy in Fiendish Codex I. He'd be an interesting choice, but I wonder if you really meant him or Gargauth, the exiled archdevil who slew Astaroth and assumed his name. Gargauth is still alive, and would seem to me to be a more obvious candidate than the demon of prophets.
Satan was mentioned in Alexander von Thorn's "The Politics of Hell" in Dragon #28, but that article was so divergent from later AD&D canon (Asmodeus only ruled Hell for the last hundred years, and Belial had long-ago abandoned it, for example) that I would ignore it. The version of Lucifer from Necromancer Games' Tome of Horrors would work better.
Back to Lynn. Here's the write-up for the main villain, Haazheel Thorn. He'll need some tinkering to be fit for Oerth ...
Schweet! I've been waiting for something like this! I am going to read and re-read his writeup straightaway! I just wanted to post in here, to say that I'm glad that the thread is back on track with schweet-sweet Empire of Lynn goodness! That guy looks like a badass!
Oh, and is the artist the one for the comic books? And is there more than one artist? Penciler/inker?
Oliver Ledroit drew the first 5 graphic novels, and drew the covers for all 14 graphic novels. That drawing of Haazheel Thorn is from the cover of vol. 13.
The interior art for volumes 6-14 was drawn by Cyril Pontet.
Someone explains that the old JG maps' equator isn't supposed to reprsent the middle of the planet. If I move eastern Rhadmanthia above the Oerth's equator, then I do get an area about where Europe is but it replaces Fireland. So maybe you want a cataclysm to turn an eastern Rhadmanthia into Fireland or keep Fireland and move Aquaria south and keep it "hidden." Of course anyone can do whatever they want, I'm just saying if that information helps you, great.
From your linked thread on Necromancer's boards...
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Another thing to think about is the gravity. If Ghenrek IV was the size of Rhadmanthia alone, it would be only a quarter of the size of Earth thus making it's gravitational acceleration 4 times greater than Earth's. This would be like walking around with 3 of you on your back at all times. Would not really be feasible :P
:blink:
What?
And here I thought gravity had to do with mass, not speed....
I was just looking back at the maps again, trying to reconcile the central region of where the Empire of Lynn; attempting to decide how to fit the North (Sundered Empire/Chainmail) and the South (Froideval's Dark Moon Chronicles) together seamlessly.
And then I realized this: Is Ishtar mentioned anywhere else in canon? Or in Froideval's work? Grunkhadesh is the dwarven lava-place with the red stone, but it's never called the "Red Kingdom", right? And is the "Seameast" ever mentioned at all, other than by name? Tribes of the Enllaves?
Is there anything about the geography of the "Southlands"? My personal idea is that there's a desert (obviously) but, the Northern people of the Sundered Empire don't really care what's beyond the Barren Desert, and so, it's vastly exaggerated on the Chainmail map because they don't really know what's beyond Drazen's Horde and the desert. ... so we can sort of reconcile the two geographically. Which would mean that a.) the whole place isn't a desert, and b.) more importantly, Lhynn isn't a desert. But ... let's see, you said that Lhynn has a coastline? Does it have to reach all the way to the mountains?
I was just looking back at the maps again, trying to reconcile the central region of where the Empire of Lynn; attempting to decide how to fit the North (Sundered Empire/Chainmail) and the South (Froideval's Dark Moon Chronicles) together seamlessly.
And then I realized this: Is Ishtar mentioned anywhere else in canon? Or in Froideval's work? Grunkhadesh is the dwarven lava-place with the red stone, but it's never called the "Red Kingdom", right? And is the "Seameast" ever mentioned at all, other than by name? Tribes of the Enllaves?
Is there anything about the geography of the "Southlands"? My personal idea is that there's a desert (obviously) but, the Northern people of the Sundered Empire don't really care what's beyond the Barren Desert, and so, it's vastly exaggerated on the Chainmail map because they don't really know what's beyond Drazen's Horde and the desert. ... so we can sort of reconcile the two geographically. Which would mean that a.) the whole place isn't a desert, and b.) more importantly, Lhynn isn't a desert. But ... let's see, you said that Lhynn has a coastline? Does it have to reach all the way to the mountains?
This is all so confusing trying to piece it all together, but, I'm trying to get it all straight in my head.
Ishtar is in the Black Moon Chronicles, but isn't given much "screen time." If you look at this preview of vol. 10 on Amazon:
Just before the first page it says "ŕ Ishtar" which is basically saying that the following scene is set there.
As for the Red Kingdom, I'm not as convinced as I was when I started this thread that it's the same place as Ghrunkedash, although there's nothing to say it couldn't be. It's just kind of a long way from Lynn and supposedly the dwarves there do a lot of custom work for the empire, and supposedly the haunted ruins of Der Hem Selben are in the way.
The Empire of Lynn does have a coastline, and two cities are on that coast: the capital city of Lhynn which has an enormous port, and Altenberg.
The Empire of Lynn isn't a desert, but there is a desert south of the empire, and Lynn is supposed to share a border with Erypt/Khemit -- the Black Moon Cult gained favor in the Empire by retaking land from Erypt.
Here's how I figure the borders are with the Chainmail stuff:
When I look at this version of Western Oerik, Blue Bomber, the thing that runs through my head is that it seems to meet all of the requirements for borders and stuff, but, that it just seems to be an odd shape for the Empir of Lynn to be. I know that it's about trying to fit everything together, but, I think that there's another possibility, but I don't think that I know enough, yet. So ... okay, let me ask a couple of questions.
Does the Empire have to have an Western coastline?
Does the Empire have a canon adjacent border to Tharque?
Is the Tribes of the Enllaves the location of the desert south of the Empire?
The reason that I am asking is that I was wondering if the Free States can basically be left where they originally are, and make the Empire of Lyhnn push more toward Erypt? That could give it a coastline, and take Erypt out of the mountains - which is difficult to imagine an Egyptian mountain setting anyway.
so ... The Barbarian Seameast and The Tribes ... I guess vast areas of uncontrolled land is difficult to imagine for me, but in non-European history, it happened fairly often. But, I always get the felling that these are more like descriptions of the area's inhabitants, more than it is a description of the national political structure or rulers in that region.
Also ... how difficult would it be to reconcile the maps if one were to go by the Darmoon MMO map, and just say that Thalos and Lhynn take up geographicallly the same area, and one simply has to choose one or the other, essentially?
Is the "Isle of Mephreton" mentioned by Gygax in the original post on this thread, the one off the coast of Erypt? Would this be the place where the order established by Methraton is situated? Is that an alternate spelling (or typo/error) by Gygax, or are the two names completely unrelated?
The map I made was just for general reference. I'm not an expert map-maker or particularly good with graphics programs.
Icarus wrote:
Does the Empire have to have an Western coastline?
I would say yes. A large empire needs at least one port, and removing the coastline changes too much about the empire. Go back and read the description of Lhynn--the Imperial Palace is also a giant lighthouse, etc. Better not to change the character of these locations
Icarus wrote:
Does the Empire have a canon adjacent border to Tharque?
Yes. The Empire of Lynn used to be the largest part of the Tharque Empire, and now the Tharques are advancing on their borders. Also there's a big naval battle between Tharque and Lynn in the later chapters of the story.
Icarus wrote:
Is the Tribes of the Enllaves the location of the desert south of the Empire?
So far as I know. I couldn't find anything about the Enllaves in the stuff I've found so far.
Icarus wrote:
The reason that I am asking is that I was wondering if the Free States can basically be left where they originally are, and make the Empire of Lyhnn push more toward Erypt? That could give it a coastline, and take Erypt out of the mountains - which is difficult to imagine an Egyptian mountain setting anyway.
Then you don't know much about Egypt :P They have mountains there, plus there would need to be moutains to feed their "Nile" parallel, both with water and nutrient-rich sediment. It would make sense if it were the mountains that border on the presumably moister environment of Shaofeng.
Besides, I don't see why the Chainmail stuff needs to be adhered to that rigorously--the locations in the Chainmail stuff were nebulous and ill-defined, and never gave any locations of cities or settlements.
Icarus wrote:
so ... The Barbarian Seameast and The Tribes ... I guess vast areas of uncontrolled land is difficult to imagine for me, but in non-European history, it happened fairly often. But, I always get the felling that these are more like descriptions of the area's inhabitants, more than it is a description of the national political structure or rulers in that region.
They're the least defined and I couldn't find anything about them in the Black Moon stuff I translated.
Icarus wrote:
Also ... how difficult would it be to reconcile the maps if one were to go by the Darmoon MMO map, and just say that Thalos and Lhynn take up geographicallly the same area, and one simply has to choose one or the other, essentially?
Doesn't work. They're too different and canonicly they BOTH are supposed to exist on Western Oerik. Dungeon #124 gave a brief description of Lynn in GH canon, as did Expedition to Castle Greyhawk, and it didn't remotely resemble any of the descriptions of Thalos in any way. I Don't see the point of squishing them together when Western Oerik is so huge and undeveloped and the Chainmail map is ill-defined. There's plenty of room for both.
Icarus wrote:
Is the "Isle of Mephreton" mentioned by Gygax in the original post on this thread, the one off the coast of Erypt? Would this be the place where the order established by Methraton is situated? Is that an alternate spelling (or typo/error) by Gygax, or are the two names completely unrelated?
I'm pretty sure "Mephreton" was a typo on Gygax's part. I'll see if I can find stuff to translate regarding Methraton soon.
Icarus wrote:
Also ... on a completely other note: have we looked for anyway to contact the author, or the publishing company, to ask about buying a map, or where one might be located, or if there was one ever produced?
All my google searches ended up with the MMO map, though there are a few vague incomplete maps in the comics. I wouldn't have any idea who to contact about that stuff, I can't find any contact info for Francois Froideval.
Does the Empire have to have an Western coastline?
I would say yes. A large empire needs at least one port, and removing the coastline changes too much about the empire. Go back and read the description of Lhynn--the Imperial Palace is also a giant lighthouse, etc. Better not to change the character of these locations
I guess I put too much emphasis in the wrong place. I was emphasizing the requirement of it, but what I really should've said is does it have to have a western coast? I was thinking that it might be able to be put in on the eastern coast, along the Celestial Sea, between Ahmut's Legion and Erypt. That also might give a placement for the Pass of Dragons ... unless, of course there's already placement for Drach.
Bluebomber4evr wrote:
Then you don't know much about Egypt :P They have mountains there, plus there would need to be moutains to feed their "Nile" parallel, both with water and nutrient-rich sediment. It would make sense if it were the mountains that border on the presumably moister environment of Shaofeng.
I realize that there are "mountains" in Egypt ... but, I guess that my Texas mentality is coming out. I meant like Mountain-mountains. While there are "highlands"<impish wink> there, in the US mountains some are 300% as high as highest elevations of Egypt.
Bluebomber4evr wrote:
They're too different and canonicly they BOTH are supposed to exist on Western Oerik.
While I realize that in both settings, they are s'posed to exist individually, I don't think that I would say that they both exist "canonicly". I was wondering if there were, perhaps, a chance that Chainmail's Thalos was "overwritten" on Froideval's Lynn. It's theoretically possible that the Chainmail designers knew what was there and decided to replace or rename it. ... but, I would agree with you that it's terribly unlikely, since there's been stuff written about it in canon both before and after Chainmail.
Bluebomber4evr wrote:
I'm pretty sure "Mephreton" was a typo on Gygax's part. I'll see if I can find stuff to translate regarding Methraton soon.
Keen.
Bluebomber4evr wrote:
All my google searches ended up with the MMO map, though there are a few vague incomplete maps in the comics.
Also ... on a completely other note: have we looked for anyway to contact the author, or the publishing company, to ask about buying a map, or where one might be located, or if there was one ever produced?
All my google searches ended up with the MMO map, though there are a few vague incomplete maps in the comics. I wouldn't have any idea who to contact about that stuff, I can't find any contact info for Francois Froideval.
Oh ... my ... GAWD!! It's SERPENTOR from the old GI Joe cartoon~!!!
Blue Bomber, I can't wait to read this! The cult of the Supreme Magus Methraton is looking really cool! Does he have shades of the cult of Apophis (Apep)? I kind of hope that he doesn't. I think that he's kind of cool ... but, he looks über-creepy though. Like a badguy? Or an über not-goodguy?
Seriously, though ... DMPrata ... I think you are both a Genius, and deeply Evil. Thus, you are an Evil Genius. Man! Tempt *me* with a FB link to Froideval's page will ya'?!! I know that it's really easy to find people these days, but, ... Froideval, right there, man. I didn't even think of trying something as simple as FB. So, I already sent him a very politely worded message, saying that I was recently introduced to his work, and was interesting in it with regards to GH. So, here's hoping that it might work!
Alright so ... the one question that hasn't been asked yet:
What method are you using to translate the text of the comic books?
Are you hand-typing the text? I tried out another comic book that I own (Daredevil) to see if a PDF would recognize the text in the photos from individual pages (converted from the actual JPG images into a PDF), and then I converted it to a .DOCX for MS Word (an available function in Acrobat Pro) and it didn't like the pictures. It would recognize all of the plain text, but, not within the pictures. I was hoping that I would be able to use the translate function of MS Word, but, I can't figure out how to get it to recognize the text.
Does the Empire have to have an Western coastline?
I would say yes. A large empire needs at least one port, and removing the coastline changes too much about the empire. Go back and read the description of Lhynn--the Imperial Palace is also a giant lighthouse, etc. Better not to change the character of these locations
I guess I put too much emphasis in the wrong place. I was emphasizing the requirement of it, but what I really should've said is does it have to have a western coast? I was thinking that it might be able to be put in on the eastern coast, along the Celestial Sea, between Ahmut's Legion and Erypt. That also might give a placement for the Pass of Dragons ... unless, of course there's already placement for Drach.
That doesn't make any sense. They'd lose the border with Tharque and it would be incredibly difficult for Tharque to launch a naval assault on Lynn.
Icarus wrote:
Bluebomber4evr wrote:
Then you don't know much about Egypt :P They have mountains there, plus there would need to be moutains to feed their "Nile" parallel, both with water and nutrient-rich sediment. It would make sense if it were the mountains that border on the presumably moister environment of Shaofeng.
I realize that there are "mountains" in Egypt ... but, I guess that my Texas mentality is coming out. I meant like Mountain-mountains. While there are "highlands"<impish wink> there, in the US mountains some are 300% as high as highest elevations of Egypt.
Again, look at the Nile river in the real world. It originates from two feeder rivers that come from mountain ranges--the Blue Nile, which carries all the sediment, originates from the mountains of Ethiopia; while the White Nile, which carries most of the water, originates from the highlands of Tanzania. A river like that in Western Oerik would need similar mountain ranges to feed it and support a large population in an otherwise dry area.
Icarus wrote:
Alright so ... the one question that hasn't been asked yet:
What method are you using to translate the text of the comic books?
Are you hand-typing the text? I tried out another comic book that I own (Daredevil) to see if a PDF would recognize the text in the photos from individual pages (converted from the actual JPG images into a PDF), and then I converted it to a .DOCX for MS Word (an available function in Acrobat Pro) and it didn't like the pictures. It would recognize all of the plain text, but, not within the pictures. I was hoping that I would be able to use the translate function of MS Word, but, I can't figure out how to get it to recognize the text.
So ... I'm hoping that there's an option that I can use to do some translation as well (if I am able to get the comics). I just can't imagine typing out 14 issues of the Chronicles, plus the Methraton and Secrets of the Black Moon issues. That's ... a lot.
Dude, I'm not insane enough to try translating the comics.
On the first page I posted a link to a fan-made role-playing game adaptation of the comics. I'm cutting and pasting the french text from that and pasting it into a multiple online translation sites (babelfish, google translate, etc.).
It would probably total almost half as much as you've typed in this thread alone!
Yeah, yeah. You're not the first to make that joke! In my World of Warcraft guild, they tease me, and make jokes that about how overly verbose I am. "the Loquacious" and " ... the Superfluous", and jokes about how I never stop writing. <grin> Well, if that's the worst I'm ever teased about, well, I'm happy.
Bluebomber4evr wrote:
Dude, I'm not insane enough to try translating the comics.
On the first page I posted a link to a fan-made role-playing game adaptation of the comics. I'm cutting and pasting the french text from that and pasting it into a multiple online translation sites (babelfish, google translate, etc.).
Now that you point it out, I remember looking at those links when this thread began a month and a half ago. Sorry for not going back and reading.
But, (I am praying here) I hope that you downloaded a copy of the PDF that "Alexander" was making in that fan-forum. Because six days after we started this thread, the FBI seized Megaupload.com ... where he was storing his files. It's very, very unfortunate (especially since they did it right after the SOPA fiasco), but the CdLN adaptation got sucked into that morass, and his links are all now dead.
I really wish that he'd not deleted his own forum posts in making the PDF. We might've been able to recreate some of his work. And a lot of that thread makes *no* sense when post after post reads "Emptied because editing pdf ... See the first post and then revised".
Also ... on a completely other note: have we looked for anyway to contact the author, or the publishing company, to ask about buying a map, or where one might be located, or if there was one ever produced?
All my google searches ended up with the MMO map, though there are a few vague incomplete maps in the comics. I wouldn't have any idea who to contact about that stuff, I can't find any contact info for Francois Froideval.
A bit late on this, I know but... I've come across this before and there's no way to tell if that's genuine. There are unfortunately a lot of bogus FB pages out there for writers, musicians, etc.
A bit late on this, I know but... I've come across this before and there's no way to tell if that's genuine. There are unfortunately a lot of bogus FB pages out there for writers, musicians, etc.
Yes, but this bogus Facebook page is friends with Frank Mentzer.
A fun little interesting bit of information about the comic series, and about the story in the Black Moon Chronicles ...
Without spoilers or anything, there's a dragon talked about in the comicbooks, who is reffered to as "the first dragon, the father of all grand dreamers". You know what its name is?
Xygga
Which, if you didn't notice, is an anagram of "Gygax". I think that I love Froideval more, and more.
The dedication in the final issue reads:
Francois Marcela Froideva, Nov 2008 wrote:
This series is dedicated to E. Gary Gygax. The first big dreamer, the inventor of role-playing, without whom fantasy and science fiction currently would be a minor genre nearly forgotten. To this quiet giant who was dreaming of millions of players.
To my master, to my friend. May he live eternally in the universe he has patiently woven.
Side note: I'm waiting to find out if I am going to be able to get a translator to write up the comicbooks for me. My GF has a friend who's a fellow physician at work who happens to be French, and gives tutoring lessons, and my GF is going to ask if she'd be willing to do translations of the comicbooks that I have. I actually offered to let her use them if she has any youngsters to tutor that would find it easier to read something like a comicbook than a textbook. :) I can't *wait* to find out what she says! _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
Side note: I'm waiting to find out if I am going to be able to get a translator to write up the comicbooks for me. My GF has a friend who's a fellow physician at work who happens to be French, and gives tutoring lessons, and my GF is going to ask if she'd be willing to do translations of the comicbooks that I have. I actually offered to let her use them if she has any youngsters to tutor that would find it easier to read something like a comicbook than a textbook. :) I can't *wait* to find out what she says!
Um, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to use them to teach children. The books have a lot of adult content--especially once the succubus Hellyana shows up.
Um, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to use them to teach children. The books have a lot of adult content--especially once the succubus Hellyana shows up.
Holy crap, man! That's not really what I had in mind, but, you're right. Probably not appropriate for (youngsters=young kids).
But, I was thinking more of the age that someone would generally be taking French classes and would need a tutor. i.e. - Sophmore in high school to Sophmore in college. 16 to 20? Comparably speaking at my age, those are "youngsters".
I don't think the comics would be inappropriate for that age range, would they? PG-13? NC-17? R? I hadn't stopped to think of that, at all. Thanks for pointing it out. I will be certain to mention it to her, if she's the translator I end up using. I found two others that I'll use if she hasn't the time. _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
I'm a teacher and a parent, Icarus, and I can tell you that if your translator is employed in a public school and a parent discovers that she has given her students literature regarding a succubus, she will be in very hot water. I bet the same would apply even if she is just a private tutor.
I admit that I'm not familiar with the content of the comic, so this is just a warning to be careful. I suggest you inform her of the content, or rather, I suppose she'll read through it as she translates it for you, so she'll know first-hand what it involves.
Um, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to use them to teach children. The books have a lot of adult content--especially once the succubus Hellyana shows up.
Holy crap, man! That's not really what I had in mind, but, you're right. Probably not appropriate for (youngsters=young kids).
But, I was thinking more of the age that someone would generally be taking French classes and would need a tutor. i.e. - Sophmore in high school to Sophmore in college. 16 to 20? Comparably speaking at my age, those are "youngsters".
I don't think the comics would be inappropriate for that age range, would they? PG-13? NC-17? R? I hadn't stopped to think of that, at all. Thanks for pointing it out. I will be certain to mention it to her, if she's the translator I end up using. I found two others that I'll use if she hasn't the time.
I'd say "R." There's partial nudity; you see the succubus' bare breasts quite a few times, even on the cover of one of the volumes. I don't believe it gets any more graphic than that, but there's some probably some racy dialogue, adult themes, etc. While stuff like that is no big deal in France, a US teacher would probably get a lot of flak to showing that even to high school students.
Thankfully, she's not a public school teacher (she's a doctor who happens to give lessons), and as I said above, I'd mention it to her; and as you said, she'd be translating it, so she'd know what it was and if it was appropriate for any of the people she gives lessons to.
But, regarding the setting: I got a little bored and impatient this evening, and hand-typed a couple or few pages into translation programs, and read a little of the end of the series. So ... I can offer tidbits of the story's climax. Which is to say, some of the things in the final issue, and major events at the end of it all.
So, my question to y'all is: Spoilers, or no? I realize that the majority of people aren't going to spend their Income Tax Returns on buying the comics or anything, so, the majority of readers aren't going to bother reading French comics ... but, still, I wanted to ask before I went posting anything realms-shattering, if y'all care about the setting's time or place. _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
Hey if she translates the adult themed stuff they might do a porn parody of it.
Spoilers only for those of us who have the comics and are reading or looking forward to reading it. I would love to have them but don't see it as a possibility at this time. So I guess what I'm saying is spoil me!
Thank you, James. I'm familiar with using spoiler tags.
It's just occassionally annoying to have to read a full page of spoiler tags when everyone has to put them because they're discussing the spoilers.
And, I figured that if any significant number of people said they weren't interested, I could talk to anyone who was interested off-thread, and wouldn't even bother putting them here for lack of interest. _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
Mur, Komal, and Risay are briefly described in Dungeon #136
I just re-read through the adventure in Dungeon #136, and couldn't find the reference to Risay. Do you happen to have a page number handy?
Doubtless, it's something blazingly obvious, and I just missed it.
The reason I ask is that my next map is going to be heading up in that area, and I'm trying to gather all the canonical source material I can lay my hands on.
I just re-read through the adventure in Dungeon #136, and couldn't find the reference to Risay. Do you happen to have a page number handy? Doubtless, it's something blazingly obvious, and I just missed it.
<chuckles warmly> Yeah, well ... I've done it before too, Thulcondar. Happens to the best of us.
The article is the adventure "The Coming Storm". There's a great deal of information beginning on page 38 in the section entitled "The Land of Mur, and the Shensite Order". It describes Mur, but also mentions the other, and there are a bunch of references throughout the article to things like "Murian armor" and whatnot.
The name appears in the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, p. 137 (along with Mur, I should add), and there's an article on Zeif by Fred Weining in Living Greyhawk Journal #5, starting on p. 10, that mentions it as well. In fact, it places it south of Zeif, making its placement on the map in the OJ problematical.
The name appears in the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, p. 137 (along with Mur, I should add), and there's an article on Zeif by Fred Weining in Living Greyhawk Journal #5, starting on p. 10, that mentions it as well. In fact, it places it south of Zeif, making its placement on the map in the OJ problematical.
Joe / GG
yikes, looks like I need to update my map as well!
To adhere to the zeifian gazetteer; and I include Istustan inspired by the wonderful fanfic of Galina, as an upstart nation/ trade bridge to the celestial imperium.
I just posted something on my blog, attempting to reconcile the available sources and figure out where the four continents end up. My map is a bit different than yours in details, BB4E, but I think you'll find it interesting.
To adhere to the zeifian gazetteer; and I include Istustan inspired by the wonderful fanfic of Galina, as an upstart nation/ trade bridge to the celestial imperium.
I'm going with:
Mur
Komal
Risay
Mur northernmost because it is said "that the warm currents of the Dramidj Ocean combining with the bitterly cold prevailing winds from Telchuria (Hyperborea) to create a zone of moist, tumultuous weather". That tells me it needs to be the state closest to the northern shore.
Komal adjacent to it because we are told that they are neighbors, and the Komalis often raid into Mur.
Risay southernmost because it is said to be south of the Zeif town of Barakhat, yet on the gulf, and with at least some sandy terrain (the "Sand Battle" was fought there in 3186 BH; the name of the battle could mean other things, of course, but it makes sense to have its territory overlap with the Dry Steppe as it reaches the gulf).
I just posted something on my blog, attempting to reconcile the available sources and figure out where the four continents end up. My map is a bit different than yours in details, BB4E, but I think you'll find it interesting.
Interesting, but I think you're off on which ocean is the Agitoric. The "Oceanum Titanicum" would be the exact same body of water as the Solnor, really, which is why I didn't even put it on the map I posted. The only other real candidate left was the Ocean of Storms, and "Agitoric Ocean" sounds like a better name for that body of water (less generic).
I placed New Empyrea/Aquaria on Fireland due to the debate between Rasgon and myself earlier in this thread. It just seemed the most appropriate place without adding another landmass, and the area from R1-4/I12 is small enough and Fireland is large enough that it could still be a frontier with Thillonrian "vikings."
Thulcondar wrote:
Crag wrote:
I place the baklunish states:
Komal
Risay
Mur
To adhere to the zeifian gazetteer; and I include Istustan inspired by the wonderful fanfic of Galina, as an upstart nation/ trade bridge to the celestial imperium.
I'm going with:
Mur
Komal
Risay
Mur northernmost because it is said "that the warm currents of the Dramidj Ocean combining with the bitterly cold prevailing winds from Telchuria (Hyperborea) to create a zone of moist, tumultuous weather". That tells me it needs to be the state closest to the northern shore.
Komal adjacent to it because we are told that they are neighbors, and the Komalis often raid into Mur.
Risay southernmost because it is said to be south of the Zeif town of Barakhat, yet on the gulf, and with at least some sandy terrain (the "Sand Battle" was fought there in 3186 BH; the name of the battle could mean other things, of course, but it makes sense to have its territory overlap with the Dry Steppe as it reaches the gulf).
Interesting, but I think you're off on which ocean is the Agitoric. The "Oceanum Titanicum" would be the exact same body of water as the Solnor, really, which is why I didn't even put it on the map I posted. The only other real candidate left was the Ocean of Storms, and "Agitoric Ocean" sounds like a better name for that body of water (less generic).
I placed New Empyrea/Aquaria on Fireland due to the debate between Rasgon and myself earlier in this thread. It just seemed the most appropriate place without adding another landmass, and the area from R1-4/I12 is small enough and Fireland is large enough that it could still be a frontier with Thillonrian "vikings."
When you place Aquaria as its own continent (and the Aquaria material declares it to be so) it divides the Solnor from the Oceanum Titanicum, thus neatly avoiding the problem you state. However, if you declare that the Oceanum Titanicum and the Solnor are one in the same, as well as the Ocean of Storms and the Agitoric, then you end up an ocean short!
Quote:
That's more or less the reasoning I used too, and I wanted to avoid using fanon wherever possible.
The fact that the southern continent ("Gonduria," possibly) is depicted on both sides of the map simultaneously makes it pretty clear that the intent of the Dragon Annual #1 cartographer (Dave Sutherland) was that the Solnor and the Oceanum Titanicum were one and the same. There's literally no room in between the two map edges, unless you stretch the continent out. That can be reimagined as artistic license or a cartographer's error, but it seems to me to be as clear a way of signalling "there's nothing else here" as possible. Since the source of the name "Oceanum Titanicum" is the same map, I don't see any need to add continents to explain it. It doesn't seem strange to me that distant lands would have different names for the same ocean. Note that the map above labels the waters to the west of Fireland as also being part of the Oceanum Titanicum, though these waters should surely be the Solnor.
Quote:
When you place Aquaria as its own continent (and the Aquaria material declares it to be so)
No, it doesn't. Not explicitly. Doc's Island states:
"The bulk of the explorers settled in a pleasant valley southeast of the peninsula. They found an ideal riverside location a few miles inland and built their first real town on the continent..."
That quote could be taken as "this is a separate continent that they built a town on," of course, but it can also be taken as "this is the first town the Aquaerdians explorers built on the continent of Oerik." They hadn't built the towns they abandoned in Aerdy (although their ancestors may have), and when they were in Aerdy they weren't yet explorers. So this is the first town they built themselves, in their position as explorers in a new land.
The other major reference to "continent" (apart from the one that said they're 5,000 miles east of Oerik, which would be true whether or not travelling this far put them in Oerik again) is on page 6, where we're told that the forces of Evil "overran the continent." If the continent is Oerik, clearly this isn't literally true (though this was during the Age of Great Sorrow, when Evil was on the rise everywhere). However, the Empyrean monarchy controlled such a tiny region that what was going on in the rest of the continent is really irrelevant to the story. As the module states, it is only concerned with a small territory, and this is what was overrun by Evil, not necessarily the entire continental mass, regardless of which continent you think that mass was.
If Aquaria is placed in Fireland, then no, it isn't literally on a continent by most sages reckoning, though it's big enough that it could be referred to as a continent poetically. Roger E. Moore wrote in The Adventure Begins "No single island is great enough to be a continent, though the largest might be the largest island on Oerth."
I think, though, that 5,000 miles east would place it in the Elven Lands or Gigantea instead. Maximum compatibility with the Chainmail setting would suggest Gigantea as the more likely candidate. Perhaps the Aquaerdians had to keep moving east because they were turned away by the people of Thalos and the Sundered Empire.
When you place Aquaria as its own continent (and the Aquaria material declares it to be so)
No, it doesn't. Not explicitly.
Really? Cast your eyes to the lower-left corner of the following:
Seems pretty explicit to me.
It is, yes, and I would find that convincing if that were an official map, and not a fan-created map by Dave L.
I thought you were trying to avoid fanon wherever possible.
(This isn't intended to be read as sarcastic or snippy; I honestly thought you were trying to avoid fanon, and I think that this map qualifies. The maps in R4 and I12 never use the word "continent," and I believe those are the only official ones).
It is, yes, and I would find that convincing if that were an official map, and not a fan-created map by Dave L.
I thought you were trying to avoid fanon wherever possible.
My bad-- for some reason I thought that was connected with Frank M's recent efforts to publish the setting. I would point out, however, that Dave L.'s works in connection with Aquaria are a smidgen above "fan created", being endorsed by none other than Frank Mentzer himself:
I'm not sure why you're resisting the idea that Aquaria was its own continent; it's pretty well established. Frank Mentzer did explicitly state that "in the early 1980s, Aquaria was Officially Approved as being located east of Oerik, across the Solnor." Here:
In that same post, he explicitly gives two timelines. One for OG: Oeridian/Greyhawk continent and the other for AQ: Aquarian continent. That seems sufficiently explicit to me, and I'm pretty sure it's not the dreaded fanon.
Forgive me for saying so, but I'll take the word of Frank Mentzer over you, when it comes to whether or not his campaign setting was intended to be a continent on Oerth. But you go right on swinging, slugger.
I'm not sure why you're resisting the idea that Aquaria was its own continent.
Because Frank Mentzer's campaign didn't make use of the Dragon Annual #1 map, I don't think material from his own unpublished campaign necessarily applies to discussions that do involve that map. My thoughts are an attempt to reconcile the TSR-published material in what I think is the most elegant way. Since I see no canonical reason to make Aquaria its own continent (and doing so would seem to contradict the Dragon map), it seems simpler not to. Occam's Razor and all that.
I would personally consider Frank Mentzer's own unpublished words to be fanon, or at least apocryphal.
But as I said, your way works too.
Last edited by rasgon on Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
So ... meanwhile ... back in Western Oerik, there's this Empire called Lyhnn.
So, how do you guys feel about the depictions of Altenberg and Sysigie being these tremendously towering citadels? I mean it's a comicbook staple, to be certain, and not exactly historical, to be sure.
I wonder, because GH has a very historical feel and yet I often want something that is a little more fantastical. I have great memories of reading The Hobbit and thinking that Rivendell was the most amazing thing ever. And I was even impressed with the Lake Men's city, and was wondrously impressed by the thoughts of the dwarven cities.
I guess what I'm saying is: would you guys run the cities precisely as they appear in the illustrations posted above by BlueBomber? Would you use them as player handouts, and describe them as being a bit exaggerated? Would you make them considerably more realistic? I mean, Altenberg can fairly easily be described as a towering castle I mean, it's name almost literally means "high city", but, Sysigie is a little different. Is that clouds? Low-lying fog in a valley? What are those angelic statues? Are they colossuses? Are they closer than the city, and just look that large? Would it really look that tall ... or perhaps would you make it still a marvelous feat of architecture, but a bit more realistic? Maybe like Mont San Michel in France? (It happens to be an actual island, for those who've never seen it. It's ginormous, and it's stunning.)
Just cuious how you'd compare those images that BlueBomber posted. I mean, I just got nearly all of the comics when my Income Tax came in ... but, I am curious what you guys are thinking of them. _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
So ... meanwhile ... back in Western Oerik, there's this Empire called Lyhnn.
So, how do you guys feel about the depictions of Altenberg and Sysigie being these tremendously towering citadels? I mean it's a comicbook staple, to be certain, and not exactly historical, to be sure.
I wonder, because GH has a very historical feel and yet I often want something that is a little more fantastical. I have great memories of reading The Hobbit and thinking that Rivendell was the most amazing thing ever. And I was even impressed with the Lake Men's city, and was wondrously impressed by the thoughts of the dwarven cities.
I guess what I'm saying is: would you guys run the cities precisely as they appear in the illustrations posted above by BlueBomber? Would you use them as player handouts, and describe them as being a bit exaggerated? Would you make them considerably more realistic? I mean, Altenberg can fairly easily be described as a towering castle I mean, it's name almost literally means "high city", but, Sysigie is a little different. Is that clouds? Low-lying fog in a valley? What are those angelic statues? Are they colossuses? Are they closer than the city, and just look that large? Would it really look that tall ... or perhaps would you make it still a marvelous feat of architecture, but a bit more realistic? Maybe like Mont San Michel in France? (It happens to be an actual island, for those who've never seen it. It's ginormous, and it's stunning.)
Just cuious how you'd compare those images that BlueBomber posted. I mean, I just got nearly all of the comics when my Income Tax came in ... but, I am curious what you guys are thinking of them.
I don't see how they're anymore unrealistic than Castle Greyhawk with its massive dungeon complex.
As for Greyhawk being "historical," while it's probably a more accurate depiction of medieval politics than say, the Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance, it's full of plenty of non-historical flights of fancy: the evil demigod ruling a land in his own name, a nation of racist ascetics with a powerful navy, and so on.
I don't see how they're anymore unrealistic than Castle Greyhawk with its massive dungeon complex.
As for Greyhawk being "historical," while it's probably a more accurate depiction of medieval politics than say, the Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance, it's full of plenty of non-historical flights of fancy: the evil demigod ruling a land in his own name, a nation of racist ascetics with a powerful navy, and so on.
Alright ... we're not gonna go into that whole debacle! LOL! :) We could debate the history vs. fantasy thing for ages! (and it's been done to death!) <warm grin>
I was referring to the physical appearance of the buildings. Yes, Castle Greyhawk has massive dungeons, but it's external appearance is one of a fairly believeable castle ... but, I'm not talking about whether something has fantasy tropes in the setting, I'm referring to how those places are depicted artistically. Whether they have a certain versimilitude or not.
I love the illustrations, no doubt about that. But, there are often people who feel that the exaggerated art in comicbooks isn't really the "feel" of GH. There are some isolated examples where I agree with them. So, I was asking how those reading the thread felt about the comic art ... for example, with a castle looks like the Empire States Building (being enormously tall and thin). I wondered if that can be chalked up to an exaggerated perspective PoV, or if people thought it might be a magical construction, or perhaps maybe the clouds/fog of Sysigie are a bit too reminiscent of Cloud City for some, or maybe could be explained as Poison Clouds. ... or whatever explanation one chose to give (even/especially a magical/fantasy one.)
I don't see how they're anymore unrealistic than Castle Greyhawk with its massive dungeon complex.
As for Greyhawk being "historical," while it's probably a more accurate depiction of medieval politics than say, the Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance, it's full of plenty of non-historical flights of fancy: the evil demigod ruling a land in his own name, a nation of racist ascetics with a powerful navy, and so on.
Alright ... we're not gonna go into that whole debacle! LOL! :) We could debate the history vs. fantasy thing for ages! (and it's been done to death!) <warm grin>
I was referring to the physical appearance of the buildings. Yes, Castle Greyhawk has massive dungeons, but it's external appearance is one of a fairly believeable castle ... but, I'm not talking about whether something has fantasy tropes in the setting, I'm referring to how those places are depicted artistically. Whether they have a certain versimilitude or not.
I love the illustrations, no doubt about that. But, there are often people who feel that the exaggerated art in comicbooks isn't really the "feel" of GH. There are some isolated examples where I agree with them. So, I was asking how those reading the thread felt about the comic art ... for example, with a castle looks like the Empire States Building (being enormously tall and thin). I wondered if that can be chalked up to an exaggerated perspective PoV, or if people thought it might be a magical construction, or perhaps maybe the clouds/fog of Sysigie are a bit too reminiscent of Cloud City for some, or maybe could be explained as Poison Clouds. ... or whatever explanation one chose to give (even/especially a magical/fantasy one.)
I didn't mean that to go toward the "historicity" of the setting; obviously it's based in fantasy. I was intending a conversation about artistic representation of the setting, and other possible points of view other than mine - which is that I really like them.
Meh, it's still no big deal to me. Greyhawk's been around a long time and has all sorts of artistic interpreatations, from Erol Otus in the late 70s, Jeff Easley in the 80s, Eric Hotz's woodcut-style from the 90s, and Wayne Reynolds' very stylized look of the last decade, all very different from each other.
Going with the "unrealistic appearance" thing--there's still examples of that in the Flanaess, such as the Silent Ones' tower in Keoland.
So, how do you guys feel about the depictions of Altenberg and Sysigie being these tremendously towering citadels? I mean it's a comicbook staple, to be certain, and not exactly historical, to be sure.
I wonder, because GH has a very historical feel and yet I often want something that is a little more fantastical.
<snip>
I guess what I'm saying is: would you guys run the cities precisely as they appear in the illustrations posted above by BlueBomber? Would you use them as player handouts, and describe them as being a bit exaggerated? Would you make them considerably more realistic?
If I was going to do handouts (I rarely do), I'd probably use the images as-is from the graphic novel. As has been said before, it's a fantasy game, and I have no problem with verisimilitude when it comes to that sort of architecture.
Plus, I would say there's a certain aesthetic that goes with Lhynn specifically because it was first found in graphic novel format. Much like part of the "feel" of the Flanaess comes from Gygax's prose style, I might argue that part of the "feel" of the Empire of Lhynn comes from that sort of artistic style.
Which doesn't mean it has a lock on the material, to be sure. But it certainly doesn't detract from it, to my mind.
https://goo.gl/photos/pZQnmMkvWVusyRDr8
Wismerhill and his companions (the dwarves in this picture don't count):
Upper left: Hellyanna, the succubus
Upper center: the half-ogre barbarian Gorghor Bey
Upper right: elven thief Heads-or-Tails
Lower left, background: the mage Shamballeau
Lower left, foreground: the samurai Murata
Lower center: Wismerhill, the protagonist
Lower right: the magical twins Pepite (foreground) and Goum (background)
Okay, so after getting these pictures, I have a larger grasp of the story now, and there's some large issues in adapting it, but nothing that can't be overcome.
SPOILERS BELOW!!!
The series ends with the complete destruction of the world caused by the moon colliding with the earth. That's the source of the tsunami about to hit Tharque in the picture above. Most of the human and dragon inhabitants of Lhynn use a magical gate made by Methraton to escape to another world, but the elves and dwarves remain behind, as does Wismerhill out of guilt for causing the world's destruction. The people of Tharque are apparently not saved.
So in adapting this, there's basically three options:
1. The events of the comics haven't happened yet, but will in the future. A problem if you plan on keeping the Oerth around
2. Treat the events of the comics the same way we currently treat the Gord the Rogue novels (especially the last one where Tharizdun destroys Oerth). As apocryphal and/or on a parallel Oerth
3. Assume that Oerth is the parallel world that the people of Lhynn escaped to at the end of the comics. This creates some problems in relation to Erypt and Tharque, however.
Of the three, I prefer #2. The comics are slightly different from Oerth canon anyway, most noticeably in that there's only one God, and he gets disgusted and more or less abandons humanity except for Sysigie, which he saves by removing from the world. If this were actually Oerth I'd have a hard time believing that all of Oerth's deities would let the entire world be destroyed over the events of the comics.
Last edited by Bluebomber4evr on Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:25 pm; edited 2 times in total
Wonderful! Absolutely wonderful! All the art in these books is just spectacular, and I love seeing more people able to enjoy it.
I have all the graphic novels except #14 and the "arcana" covering Parsifal, but I haven't been able to look through them all, obviously. Do you happen to know which volumes those most excellent images (especially the ones with the maps... ahem) are in?
That's excellent work, BB4E, and most appreciated. It will definitely come in handy when my own poor mapping efforts get out to that part of Oerik.
Wonderful! Absolutely wonderful! All the art in these books is just spectacular, and I love seeing more people able to enjoy it.
I have all the graphic novels except #14 and the "arcana" covering Parsifal, but I haven't been able to look through them all, obviously. Do you happen to know which volumes those most excellent images (especially the ones with the maps... ahem) are in?
That's excellent work, BB4E, and most appreciated. It will definitely come in handy when my own poor mapping efforts get out to that part of Oerik.
WOW!! HOLY CRAP!!
Hey! now wait one gosh-darned, cotton-oickin' minute! Those are in ENGLISH!! LOL!! Seriously though, BlueBomber ... did you re-touch the ones that are in English? I have been thinking of doing the same thing.
I do have one question about it though ... you label the "Marsh Lands". Insofar as I know, marsh or swamp would be something like "marais" in French. It would seem that the "March Lands" would be better translated as "Border Lands". The "marches" of a kingdom were the areas most far removed from the heartlands of that realm. ... and this, as I understand it, is the origin of the rank of Marquis or Marchioness, as those were the lands that they werwe given to rule.
At any rate ... just thought I would mention it, and ask about how much you've touched up like that. _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
So ... Here's another "map" of sorts, that I think is going to kind of throw this conversation a curve-ball. I noticed in Methraton 3: Pharoah last night that there's a global shot of the world of the Black Moon Chronicles ... and while, yes, there's still certain room for explanation (as Bluebomber mentions above, there's a funny little thing that I found:
[Edited to correct broken link.]
Anyone recognize that place? It bears a certain resemblance to what we're familiar with doesn't it? That's pretty much the Mediterranean, Europe, Africa ... and the white bolt is landing right about where "Érypt" woud presumably be, right on the corner of north Africa.
So ... well, there's the propostions that blueBomber put forth. I generally prefer option #2, personally, but, with this information, that would sort of mean that there's gotta be some kind of parallel-stuff going on somewhere. I am not really certain where that places the other maps that are in the comics, but still. Those are great location maps of Lynn, and that makes it easier to go back to the earlier parts of the thread where we talked about the maps, and what would need to be placed where to make it compatible with the Sundered Empire.
But, nevertheless ... this is clearly a close-Earth analog for this version of the Black Moon Chronicles.
So, another thing ... I was looking at the "End of Times" issue, and I was thinking that the Cataclysm obviously annihilated most of the world. I don't necessarily think that the world was destroyed ála Alderan, with nothing left but bits ... it easily could've just been a cataclysm-level event. What if that happened to coincide with the end of the God War in the Sundered Empire? The nations of the BMC would be a clean slate, similiar to how the Baklunish and Suel Empires are in the Flanaess ... not that I mean that they need to be wastelands, but that they were wiped out in an ancient cataclysm (or within the past century, I don't know) and all that remains of them is ruins. I mean ... the Flanaess nations are still labelled there, and there's nothing left of them! What makes us think that there's anything left of the others, except the remnants of nations?
WOW!! HOLY CRAP!!
Hey! now wait one gosh-darned, cotton-oickin' minute! Those are in ENGLISH!! LOL!! Seriously though, BlueBomber ... did you re-touch the ones that are in English? I have been thinking of doing the same thing.
I do have one question about it though ... you label the "Marsh Lands". Insofar as I know, marsh or swamp would be something like "marais" in French. It would seem that the "March Lands" would be better translated as "Border Lands". The "marches" of a kingdom were the areas most far removed from the heartlands of that realm. ... and this, as I understand it, is the origin of the rank of Marquis or Marchioness, as those were the lands that they werwe given to rule.
At any rate ... just thought I would mention it, and ask about how much you've touched up like that.
So ... Here's another "map" of sorts, that I think is going to kind of throw this conversation a curve-ball. I noticed in Methraton 3: Pharoah last night that there's a global shot of the world of the Black Moon Chronicles ... and while, yes, there's still certain room for explanation (as Bluebomber mentions above, there's a funny little thing that I found:
Anyone recognize that place? It bears a certain resemblance to what we're familiar with doesn't it? That's pretty much the Mediterranean, Europe, Africa ... and the white bolt is landing right about where "Érypt" woud presumably be, right on the corner of north Africa.
So ... well, there's the propostions that blueBomber put forth. I generally prefer option #2, personally, but, with this information, that would sort of mean that there's gotta be some kind of parallel-stuff going on somewhere. I am not really certain where that places the other maps that are in the comics, but still. Those are great location maps of Lynn, and that makes it easier to go back to the earlier parts of the thread where we talked about the maps, and what would need to be placed where to make it compatible with the Sundered Empire.
But, nevertheless ... this is clearly a close-Earth analog for this version of the Black Moon Chronicles.
Well when you look at the MMO map...it pretty much looks like the north of France.
But that does make conflicts with the plot of the comics easier--it's a "parallel Oerth" and thus not an issue.
Icarus wrote:
So, another thing ... I was looking at the "End of Times" issue, and I was thinking that the Cataclysm obviously annihilated most of the world. I don't necessarily think that the world was destroyed ála Alderan, with nothing left but bits ... it easily could've just been a cataclysm-level event. What if that happened to coincide with the end of the God War in the Sundered Empire? The nations of the BMC would be a clean slate, similiar to how the Baklunish and Suel Empires are in the Flanaess ... not that I mean that they need to be wastelands, but that they were wiped out in an ancient cataclysm (or within the past century, I don't know) and all that remains of them is ruins. I mean ... the Flanaess nations are still labelled there, and there's nothing left of them! What makes us think that there's anything left of the others, except the remnants of nations?
Just a thought or two on where this place is, and what happened to it.
Unless I was reading it wrong, the world ended with the moon colliding with the earth. That would be it for all life on earth, and about as close to an Alderaan-like situation as you could get.
One post removed due to Forum Rules violation. Warning issued.
Also, over three dozen images (so far) is beginning to verge on something more than just reference, especially when some images are of whole comic book pages. I do not think it is too much to ask for people to learn how to crop an image, similar to how one would quote a bit text for reference rather than the whole of the text. Or you could also post a smaller image too. Basically, I don't want to see anyone able to post anything similar to, "If you collect the images from here, here, here, here...here, and here, and put them in this order, you basically have issue #3, and at full resolution!", ever. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Also, over three dozen images (so far) is beginning to verge on something more than just reference, especially when some images are of whole comic book pages. I do not think it is too much to ask for people to learn how to crop an image, similar to how one would quote a bit text for reference rather than the whole of the text. Or you could also post a smaller image too. Basically, I don't want to see anyone able to post anything similar to, "If you collect the images from here, here, here, here...here, and here, and put them in this order, you basically have issue #3, and at full resolution!", ever.
I can assure that isn't going to occur, at least not from me. There's far too much nudity and sexual situations in these issues that I'd never post here. I've more or less found all the useful pictures anyway. If I come across anything else I'll make sure it's more cropped.
Sorry about image sizes, I have a big 1080p HD monitor so it's hard for me to gauge what is big for other people.
I think this is a very good fantasy setting history, although it weirds me out a bit to think that it's part of Oerth.
The biggest conflict would be the monotheistic background, I think - apart from the Black Moon religion, everyone seems to revere a single God.
I've been thinking about this, and I see a parallel between Lynn and the Pale in this respect. Although I think the proper term would be henotheistic. That is, the exclusive worship of a single god, while accepting the existence of others. In much the same way we can see the Empire of Lynn only practicing the worship of its singular god, but in practice in the graphic novels we see acceptance of the existence of other deities as well. The Pale seems to be quite similar in outlook, religiously speaking.
So while it's not the norm on Oerth, it certainly has precedent.
I'm revisiting this thread because my beyond the Flanaess mapping project has now hit Black Moon Chronicles territory, and I'm trying to soak up as much info (and reconcile as many geographic issues) as possible.
Just thought I would mention that I continued the vein of this discussion onto a more current thread created just for that purpose ...
Join in the conversation about new western Oerik maps here
Oh, and Bluebomber, I'd love to see you pipe in on some of the geography stuff, since you seem to be more well-read about the canon contents of the actual comic books. :)
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Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
Seriously though, the western portion of the Dramidj is "strangely warm" so Fireland could be getting the same thing.
) path for that ethnic group to the island of Ryuujin.
It's 
Sorry for not going back and reading.
Mur, Komal, and Risay are briefly described in Dungeon #136 
