So, today I was having a discussion about heights and weights, and I pulled out this chart that I made from about 7 years ago.
The current, most accurate, method of figuring out a person's comparitive health by measure of weight in relation to their height is called Body Mass Index (BMI), and it's a formula that is computed, not just a straight comparison of the two. And it's a good descriptor of someone's body shape, similar to measuring Percent Body Fat. BMI has some limitations: it can overestimate body fat in people who are very muscular, and it can underestimate body fat in people who have lost muscle mass, such as the elderly. This is also true of races like dwarves and half-orcs, or elves and halflings.
The listed ranges are for adventurers, who are typically more muscular and fit that the average commoner. They also tend to be better fed compared to commoners' meals of turnip stew and porridge because they can afford meals fit for a king nearly every day. an average human commoner has a BMI of 24 or less. For the same commoner, a BMI of 30 or more is roughly 30 pounds over a healthy weight.
These ratios hold true for most sub-types of each race. for example the tall, lean Grey Elves (BMI 20) are sometimes a foot or more taller that the Grugach who are more hale and athletically built (BMI 25). But only the thinnest Grey Elf, or the stockiest Grugach would have a BMI of 18 ot 27 respectively. If they did, it would be commented on by others around them. A human with a BMI of 40 may be compared to a Dwarf, or perhaps, and elephant. The Grugach might be called a half-orc. Both would be offended, and might start a fight.
Anyway, I had drawn up this table for player's of mine that always had to ask me "What should my dwarf weigh?", or I would have to tell them (with a sigh), "You're elf doesn't weigh 185 at 4ft 6 inches tall!" But, there's plenty of info on the common fantasy races, so I made this chart, and extended the "normal human" tables to include BMIs generated by the tiny halflings, and big stocky dwarves. Some went much than I ever would've expected.
The interesting thing is that these numbers that I am giving here are based on the racial norms for D&D 3.5. In Pathfinder, some of the ranges were changed to reflect differences in core concepts. For example, elves in Pathfinder more resemble the elves of J.R.R. Tolkein's Lord of the Rings. Which is to say: they are tall, and extremely thin. Though it's still possible to have an elf within the 3.5 stats and the PFRPG stats, PFRPG ones tend to be taller and much thinner. Pathfinder Dwarves are still stout, but their heights and weights can go higher, making their BMI range higher, though the average is still fairly close.
Halfling : 17-19
Gnome : 17-21
Elf : 20-25
Half-elf : 23-32
Human : 24-32
Half-orc : 26-34
Dwarf : 42-56
Anyhow ... click on the image below to view/download the table and information that I drew up, and let me know what you think. If any of you have other methods for aiding players in deciding if their elf is chubby, or their dwarf is tall (even if you use than the standard random generation), or, if you have funny peeves about racial proportions, let's talk about it!
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Last edited by Icarus on Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
Excellent, realistic work, Icarus! You've already impressed me with your "Rule of Nines" answer to my "Called Shots" thread. Have you been able to cross-reference your BMI stats with approximations with character Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores?
For instance, if a specific race (ex: gnome) was so-tall (ex: 3'2") with stats of 11 Str, 16 Dex, and 13 Con, he most likely would be so-heavy (ex: 58 lbs, even if that is wrong...you get the idea).
The 1e DMG and various Complete Books of... offer sample heights and weights for the respective races, but grant no insight how physical stats (Str, Dex, Con) may alter those. For me, that's always been a bit of a conundrum, and guess work.
I was wondering who posted a thread for BMI on character races. Icarus good post and I like the charts. I do wonder what the average gamer BMI might be?
This subject could be a taboo for many gamers who often gorge on pizza, chips, and soda. So I guess most gamers are on the dwarf list.
I was wondering who posted a thread for BMI on character races. Icarus good post and I like the charts.
Lanthron wrote:
Excellent, realistic work, Icarus! You've already impressed me ...
Thank you both very much. I actually posted this at the behest of my GF. It was her with whom I was having the conversation, and when she saw what I'd drawn up, she was very encouraging that I should post this somewhere. i'm actually working on further comparison for Pathfinder to post on the Paizo boards, about how it applies to the PFRPG stats, and how that varies from older editions.
Oh, and as far as gamer BMIs go ... we'll just be polite and not say they're dwarves. We'll just say they're in with the half-orcs.
Lanthorn wrote:
Have you been able to cross-reference your BMI stats with approximations with character Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores?
No, not really. I'm fairly familiar with BMI, and so I try to go with estimations that make more sense in a more "believable" sense. I just sort of make ad hoc corrections to what I think would make sense.
But, in 3rd Ed., and in Pathfinder, there's heights and weights given for each race. If one were interested in doing that much math, one cold feasibly work out what their BMI ranges were, and also their averages. One could also look at their racial modifiers to their ability scores and make adjustments based on that, or even look at an individual's ability modifiers and make adjustments based on that. For example, if a race had a +2 to Str, and then the PC had a final modifer of +4 on their Str (for a total of +6) you could add that to the BMI. Con could work similarly, I s'pose. Perhaps Dex could be a negative modifer to the BMI. That's a bit abstract for me, but, at least it would be something ... you know ... for those inclined to do things that way.
JHSII wrote:
... That would be Dragon #91, pages 10-14.
The article is "Realistic vital statistics" by Stephen Inniss.
That would, indeed, be the issue in question. While I do like the very full and thought out rationale given in the article, there's a couple of things tha tI just couldn't get past in the article. The process starts with an average weight, and then gives random modifiers that give a variation from the base weight. But, then there's a height adjustment based on strength, and I have a difficult time following that. _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
I guess I need to track down that Dragon article (not much luck there, I am afraid). In the meantime, I guess you, Icarus, will have to be our resident sage with respect to 'realistic' physical statistics for PCs.
In the meantime, I fully expect you to start working on the various blood types (including Rh factors, if applicable) and genetic alleles (dominance vs recessive traits, including incomplete and codominant versions) of the races. I cannot wait to see your Punnett squares!
See what happens when you demonstrate aptitude! The bar is raised.
I could actually come up with such charts as I work for the worlds largest commercial laboratory. However, I believe many underground races would most likely suffer from ailments in line with major genetic disorders like cystic fibrosis, canavan disease, maple syrup urine disease, gauchers disease, kliener's syndrome, and so many more. I'm sure Icarus could lean on his girlfriends knowledge base if he needs too. She should be somewhat familiar with the above genetic disorders.
I guess I need to track down that Dragon article (not much luck there, I am afraid).
Well, Here's a version of it You may find that it mentions that there are a couple of minor tweaks to the system, but that will at least let you see what it is that we're talking about.
Also, here's a related forum thread over on ENWorld, that relates (in it's most part), to our conversation here. It gets especially interesting on Page 3 when a fella brings up a 5'4", 136 lbs weightlifter who could outlift Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime. BMI only goes so far. It's really just a general descriptor. I think that storytelling should dictate how one sets stats for their PC.
Lanthorn wrote:
... See what happens when you demonstrate aptitude! The bar is raised.
I've done nothing of the kind, sir! I'm nothing if not a lazy gadabout! The evidence speaks! I didn't post this thing for 7 years! The bar remains firmly right where the last person left it.
Argon wrote:
I'm sure Icarus could lean on his girlfriends knowledge base if he needs too. She should be somewhat familiar with the above genetic disorders.
You are a scholar and a gentlemen for adding those links. I will be among the last people to call you a lazy gadabout, friend. Better late than never in 'publishing' your works, sir. It takes some scientists their whole careers to share their body of work (ask Charles Darwin...and Gregor Mendel never did, partly b/c he was in the middle of nowhere, Austria, in a monastery!). Thanks for (finally) doing so!
I think Argon is baiting you, Icarus, to start a new thread on the various diseases (including those types, too! ) that could infect the races of Oerth.
Good luck, and go get your penicillin...or Sarana of Pelor (does she wear gloves?)!
It's good to have a debate or consensus on something. We often jest which is good to do. Never take things too seriously, I never do. On another note sexually transmitted diseases are pretty bad as well. If you choose to bring that into your game remember syphilis was very deadly. I just had a really sick thought, a brothel devoted to Incabulos get a bout of syphilis with every purchase.
I can't remember the issue but Dragon had a article that determined height and weight based upon your characters race and strength score.
That would be Dragon #91, pages 10-14.
The article is "Realistic vital statistics" by Stephen Inniss.
It's a pretty good article - I condensed the charts and added them to my game a while back
-I know I have Dragon #91, so I must have read that article, 'tho I don't remember it.
Lanthorn wrote:
...Have you been able to cross-reference your BMI stats with approximations with character Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores?
For instance, if a specific race (ex: gnome) was so-tall (ex: 3'2") with stats of 11 Str, 16 Dex, and 13 Con, he most likely would be so-heavy (ex: 58 lbs, even if that is wrong...you get the idea)...
FWIW, I modify PC and NPC heights and weights in the following manner:
Human Male Basis: 5'9", 175#. (13 STR, 11 DEX, 12 CON) 4 hp.
This is from the height/weight average in D&D 3.5 PHG, and average "warrior stats" found throughout D&D 3.5 MM. Other races I calculate from the chart and modify the stats. For generic NPC females, I generally Woman = 5' 4", 140#; (10 STR, 11 DEX, 13 CON) 3 hp.
Icarus wrote:
...The listed ranges are for adventurers, who are typically more muscular and fit that the average commoner.
-True. The above stats are fairly mesomorphic. Most COM1s males (probably 11 STR, 10 DEX, 12 CON) 3 hp are shorter and scrawnier than the guy above.
Anyway, based on the above:
For every point of STR above/below basis, I add/subtract 1" and 4# (based on relationship between muscle and bone and STR).
For every point of DEX above/below basis, I subtract/add 2# (based on the assumption that blubber gets in the way of agility, but that not all dexterity refers to physical agility).
For every point of CON above/below basis, I add/subtract 2# (based on the assumption that constitution is partly based on muscle, organ, blood vessel and bone mass, but that not all constitution refers to mass e.g. resistance).
For every "bodily" hit point above/below the basis, I add/subtract 1" and 4# (based on the assumption that bodily hit points are partly based on muscle, organ, blood vessel and bone mass.
It looks complicated, but I have it down (for humans, anyway, which are most of the NPCs), so I can just modify it as I go.
I used the 1" to 4# ratio based on the US military's enlistment charts for height & weight; each inch of height allows four more pounds of weight (or, in some people's cases, requires you to have four more pounds of weight!). I forget exactly how I came up with 4# = 1 STR point, but I remember it had to do with something I read about muscle to bench press ratios. I took that, compared it to STR charts in the PHG (AD&D2 at the time), foud it was pretty close 4#, and went with the 4# = 1" = 1 STR point.
The charts are different for D&D 3.5, but I've kept them the same. I also considered modifying the figures for non-humans, but I figured that a halfiling with 18 STR would have to be a pretty big and heavy halfling anyway. My minds open, but...
If you do the math, it's obvious that the demi-humans are very strong and tough) for their weight.
One of the upsides of low hit points and low STR and CON scores (and high DEX) is that when you get wounded, your buddies don't have any problem hauling your butt out.
A halfling with an 18 strength must be cheesing. Cheese is what halfling's use for steroids. Get a cheesing halfling on a dairy farm, and old Bessie gonna have her work cut out for her.
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I've done nothing of the kind, sir! I'm nothing if not a lazy gadabout! The evidence speaks! I didn't post this thing for 7 years! 
