Well, crap. I had nearly composed this entire post, and I accidentally clicked to close a few tabes that I had open for linking, and I closed the pane for composing it, and lost it all. Blargh. But ... more to the point:
So, today I was doing a little surfing and scouring of the 'net like I often do, and I came across something that led me to a place that I've not been in ages ... the Wizards of the Coast homepage. Now, I haven't really been big on WotC since 4th Edition began, because Greyhawk kind of fell by the wayside. (And please, let's not turn this into a "WotC bashing" session.... please. That's not what this thread is for.) Since I'm much more of a Paizo fan now (and have been since the days when they just were the publishers of Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and I was a subscriber), I was aware of some of their plans for GenCon.
What hadn't occured to me was that WotC would have their own plans for GenCon. Interesting thing, WotC is making the keynote adderess (with Kevin Kulp, EN World's admin "PirateCat" as the keynote moderator/MC), and they're making announcements and such for what's coming. And it turns out ... it's a doozy. There's been a bit of buzz and fuss on the 'net it seems, since WotC made and announcement a few weeks ago on their Previews coumn. To wit:
Previews, August: In the Works, Bart Carroll wrote:
Keynote Address: The Future of Dungeons & Dragons
Calling all heroes, your presence is required! Join us for an unprecedented look into the future of Dungeons & Dragons, including the evolution of the game, the re-birth of a fantasy setting, and the next generation of art. Wizards of the Coast is proud to host the first-ever Gen Con keynote address on Thursday, August 16th, to share with the legions of D&D fans what’s in store for the game that has changed gaming forever.
Speakers include Wizards of the Coast President and CEO Greg Leeds, Senior Manager for D&D R&D Mike Mearls and some of the greatest creative minds in the industry.
The keynote begins at 7:00 p.m. at the Indiana Roof Ballroom and will also be live-streamed at DungeonsandDragons.com/events.
Obviously, there's a lot of speculation on the 'net about who and where and what. There's a strong suposition that it may be another reboot of the Forgotten Realms franchise. But there's a lot of other speculation, to boot. Some say that, "Almost has to be Greyhawk, what with the aura of grognardism this edition is trying to generate." It's speculative, at best ... and it's a fair amount of it.
Obviously, we're probably going to hope for a Greyhawk franchise "re-birth". There's always hope ... they did a poll a while back, and wanted to know what we wanted to see in D&D magazines ... and some of the top answers they later published included settings like Ravenloft, Dragonlance, and Planescape. The first two of those have been done already, and I don't think that they are likely to do Planescape ... so, that at least gives me hope for the future of the World of Greyhawk.
For sake of reference:
Dragonlance revisited 13.4%
Ravenloft revisited 8.8%
Everything on this list! 7.9%
Planescape revisited 7.7%
Greyhawk revisited 7.3%
Spelljammer revisited 6.7%
Eberron revisited 6.2%
War campaigns 5.6%
Nautical campaigns 5.2%
Gods and primordials 4.7%
Dark Sun revisited 4.5%
The Feywild 4.4%
Mystara revisited 4.1%
Demons and devils 3.1%
Secrets and intrigue 3.0%
Underdark campaigns 2.9%
Constructs and artifice 2.4%
Nothing on this list! 1.1%
Skullduggery 0.9%
It's coming up fast. Those who are going need to be Johnny on the spot and post what info they hear. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
It's coming up fast. Those who are going need to be Johnny on the spot and post what info they hear.
OH! Crap! did I foget to put that part in my post?!!
Yep ... it's coming up next GreyTalk chat night! Next thursday, August 16th, 1012. I can't wait to get to be all geeky-giddy next Thursday! I'll go back and edit the original post to include the date, with the time that's already there.
[Edit: NVM ... the date is there in the middle of the text, I just didn't notice it.] _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
...they did a poll a while back, and wanted to know what we wanted to see in D&D magazines ... and some of the top answers they later published included settings like Ravenloft, Dragonlance, and Planescape. The first two of those have been done already, and I don't think that they are likely to do Planescape ... so, that at least gives me hope for the future of the World of Greyhawk.
For sake of reference:
Dragonlance revisited 13.4%
Ravenloft revisited 8.8%
Everything on this list! 7.9%
Planescape revisited 7.7%
Greyhawk revisited 7.3%
Spelljammer revisited 6.7%
Eberron revisited 6.2%
War campaigns 5.6%
Nautical campaigns 5.2%
Gods and primordials 4.7%
Dark Sun revisited 4.5%
The Feywild 4.4%
Mystara revisited 4.1%
Demons and devils 3.1%
Secrets and intrigue 3.0%
Underdark campaigns 2.9%
Constructs and artifice 2.4%
Nothing on this list! 1.1%
Skullduggery 0.9%
-Hmmm... GH was supposed to be the default for D&D 3.0. They might decide "too soon."
Spelljammer was popular for a while, was it not? Did it ever get a real focus, as some of the others?
Icarus wrote:
...Obviously, we're probably going to hope for a Greyhawk franchise "re-birth". There's always hope ...
If they do use GH, instead of "blowing it up", I like this solution:
Varthalon wrote:
...to most of us, Greyhawk = Flanaess and that the Flanaess is only a small continent on the planet. WotC crashed a whole planet into the forgotten realms as part of their RSE. For Greyhawk lets be a bit more polite... lets use all of the undeveloped regions like the Celestial Kingdom, Hyperboria, Empire of Lynn, etc to explain the introduction of most of the new material like the Dragonborn, Teiflings, and Warforged...
...maybe it's time to establish what links the Flanaess has to the rest of Oerik?
Of course, if they do want to "blow it up", there are so many possibilites...
Iuz commits suicide; replaced by a 2nd level Expert (physicist) who re-equips his armies with laser pistols...
Scarlet Brotherhood officially changes it's ideology to LG; declares eternal war on Iuz...
Hesuel Ilsahr then overrun by cannabalistic halflings from the underdark...
Irongate overrun by cannabalistic halflings from the underdark...
City of Greyhawk overrun by cannabalistic halflings from the underdark...
The Temple of Elemental Evil overrun by cannabalistic halflings from the underdark...
Then entire nation of Ull overrun by cannabalistic halflings from the underdark...
Icarus wrote:
...And please, let's not turn this into a "WotC bashing" session.... please. That's not what this thread is for...
-I thought that's what every thread was for!
On the topic of bashing WOTC if it screws up GH, we can go back to those aforementioned threads...
baronzemo wrote:
We all hope and pray that's it GH, but if it's forgotten realms, i'll go on a kobold killing spree
jamesdglick, are you channeling Ed Greenwood? I take that back. Your ideas are far more creative and interesting than anything generated in his "books".
Frankly, I think the best approach for WOTC would be to take a minimlaist approach, and work on those areas that never got much detail in sourebooks, such as the Sheldomar Valley, the Iron League, Perrenland, and the Baklunish West. They could use the latter as a jumping off point for the rest of Oerik, and it owuld not be even hard to do. Heck, they would just have to take the Old Al Qadim stuff and change the maps and names a little. That is what I always thought the best, and easiest way to describe that region was anyway.
I do fear them "re-imagining" Greyhawk like I heard they did to FR and other worlds. If they smash it with a comet or a spell plague or something else, than it really isn't Greyhawk anymore, is it?
I was pretty satisfied with what they did with Dark Sun for 4e. It was almost a reboot. Taking off from just after the events in the introductory adventure that was included with the boxed set. They managed to pack the same info as the original books, plus alot of additional fluff and crunch into what was a pretty small sourcebook. That gives me hope that if they did something with GH it might be similar. That said, I doubt everyone would care for that approach. Hopefully the alternative would be picking up the timeline after the last round of play in LG.
At least they're not cannibalistic halflings from...the bayou.
Quote:
On the topic of bashing WOTC if it screws up GH, we can go back to those aforementioned threads...
On the other hand, I've sometimes seen a tendency for people to pour through books looking for any little mistake and citing them as evidence that the company "just doesn't care" about Greyhawk, in some cases when the mistakes don't actually exist.
e.g.
Complaining about a halfling cleric of Wastri in the Saltmarsh chapter of the 3e DMG II, when the character is actually a halfling druid of Obad-hai being driven insane by a cursed relic of Wastri.
or
Complaining about a Baklunish monk of the Scarlet Brotherhood in the ToEE novel, when the book never actually says he's part of the Brotherhood. The POV character assumes that he is because they're the only monks he's ever heard of, but he's never left his home village before the start of the novel, so he's not the most reliable source for assessing someone's political affiliations.
Sometimes you just need to step back, take a deep breath, and say "I don't agree with what they've done here, but I'm sure they're not actively trying to destroy Greyhawk."
I think the term "re-birth" is significant here. They're starting over. Given the upcoming release of Ed Greenwood's FR, I suspect that's the answer, but since FR has been reborn a few times already, it's also a bit overdone. I think Dragonlance has more name recognition than GH, though, so that's where my money is.
Nellisir ... you make a really good point there.
Although ... I think that I have to say that I am not entirely sure about the conclusion. The "Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms" book has been out and talked about since just after New Year's, I think. Maybe St. Valentine's Day? Something like that. At any rate, I would like to believe that there'd be a marketing director out there somewhere with better sense than making an announcement that's already been made.
Although, I'm not entirely certain whether Ed ever wrote "spellplague" stuff for 4e D&D. So, if WotC is taking the Forgotten Realms back to the Greenwood era, and publishing Elminster and all that, it may indeed be a "re-birth".
But, conversely, I think that I would have to say that I should think that they are trying to drum up quite a bit more nostalgia for this whole "D&D Next" thing. They've been saying that the idea is to do like Alderac Entertainment Group did with the Legend of the Five Rings[i] game. They brought the old school fans back into the fold by telling the world it was okay to enjoy the older setting, before a lot of changes took place. Or if they wanted to play in some alternate future thing that hadn't happen, or a home brew, or the official timeline, or what have you. ... Anyway ... I think that may be the reason that they are trying to drum up support with the older fans by republishing some of the core rulebooks from previous editions ... they want those fans back. And bringing back an essentially out of print setting would definitely do that.
I'd love to see something like the FR book done for GH ... that's the premise of this website, in fact. That GH knows no edition. "Editions Change. Greyhawk Endures." ... It would mark an enormous coup for the fans if that's the business model that they began to go with for campaign settings. Editionless. That would likely sell a [i]*lot* of books, I should think. And maybe they could do online publishing for crunchy stuff to accompany the books, and instead of one massive team doing rulebooks, they could have several smaller teams all doing stats for the same stuff in the book, only in different editions?
Obviously, we're probably going to hope for a Greyhawk franchise "re-birth".
I disagree. I don't hope for that at all-- yet.
I think fans of the Greyhawk setting dodged a bullet when it was passed over for treatment under 4E. The incredible violence that was done to the Forgotten Realms genuinely makes me feel sorry both for Ed Greenwood and its multitude of fans. Some of that was due to design limitations built into the 4E system (the "points of light" concept). Most of it was due to the urge to "advance the timeline" and give someone new a chance to put their indellible stamp on the setting.
I honestly don't want to see the latter happen to Greyhawk, unless I am very, very confident that the person in charge A) is a died-in-the-wool fan of the setting and B) has the amount of creative control required to express that love of the setting in published material.
As for the former, the 5E rules are still way too much in a state of flux to tell whether they will or will not have any inherent design features that would impose mechanical limitations on the setting. Tieflings come to mind as a prominent example.
All in all, I withhold judgement as to whether or not this would be a net plus or minus until I get a *lot* more specifics.
Nellisir ... you make a really good point there.
Although ... I think that I have to say that I am not entirely sure about the conclusion. The "Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms" book has been out and talked about since just after New Year's, I think.
I'd give Forgotten Realms a 50/50 shot at best...which isn't all that great, really. But there's nothing else that's as obvious.
I agree that the only thing they could announce at Gen Con, if the setting is FR, is that they're relaunching FR based on EG'sFR, which would mean immediately redoing EG'sFR, and that doesn't make any sense.
Dragonlance is the next most obvious choice. It's got a clear storyline, great name recognition, and WotC hasn't used it in...fifteen years? On the downside, it's pretty locked in to its mythology and timeline. I don't see rebooting it as a real option; they'd have to pick up from where things lie, which would mean a new villain, etc, etc.
Mystara doesn't have name recognition, but it's Old School and Classic and all that crap, and you can throw anything in and it fits. WotC could reboot it and tweak it and smooth off the rough edges and mess with the timeline, and I think it would go over pretty well. So, now that I'm thinking about it, FR is still the obvious choice, with DL and Mys tied for second.
Birthright is probably too esoteric to lead off 5e. AQ, RL, PS, SJ, and all the rest are way too esoteric. EB...I just don't see it.
Dragonlance is the next most obvious choice. It's got a clear storyline, great name recognition, and WotC hasn't used it in...fifteen years? On the downside, it's pretty locked in to its mythology and timeline. I don't see rebooting it as a real option; they'd have to pick up from where things lie, which would mean a new villain, etc, etc.
Mystara doesn't have name recognition, but it's Old School and Classic and all that crap, and you can throw anything in and it fits. WotC could reboot it and tweak it and smooth off the rough edges and mess with the timeline, and I think it would go over pretty well. So, now that I'm thinking about it, FR is still the obvious choice, with DL and Mys tied for second.
Birthright is probably too esoteric to lead off 5e. AQ, RL, PS, SJ, and all the rest are way too esoteric. EB...I just don't see it.
Definitely agree with your points there. Especially Eberron ... I don't think that will make it. I think that it got way over-published, and there's a lot of people that would look at it as being shoved down their throats if WotC started it up again for this edition.
Dragonlance ... well, it is true that WotC hasn't done anything with DL in a decade or two ... but, they did license it to Margaret Weiss' Sovereign Stone Press for a number of years in the Early 2000s, and there was a rather large RPG with more than 20 books in the line, I believe, that were published through '07 or so. Again, much as with Eberron, I think that the setting is too fresh for it to be reused. Ravenloft, too, I think is another one that falls into this catagory. White Wolf published it under license through '06. And they've done stuff with it here and there in Dragon magazine since.
The others (Birthright, Spelljammer, Planescape, Al'Qadim, et al.), I agree, are much too esoteric for being brought back as a main setting.
Greyhawk Grognard wrote:
I disagree. I don't hope for that at all-- yet. ... I think fans of the Greyhawk setting dodged a bullet when it was passed over for treatment under 4E. [and other stuff]
Hey there, Joe. good to see you on the boards, as always. :) You made some really salient points, and I would agree; I don't think that I want to see it butchered. I kind of feel like they learned their lesson the hard way when they blew up the Realms, and I think that they likely have had enough feedback on that by now to not do anything too bone-crunchingly stupid like that again.
But, that's not to say that a re-brith of Greyhawk would be good, you're right on that count. I, too, would want to see it done by someone who's familiar with the setting, and has a good spin on how to put out material that "feels" like GH. Erik Mona did a marvelous job of that when he was at the lead of Dragon and Dungeon magazines. While I know that there are others that aren't fond of "Mona-hawk", I really loved it, and I think that it was infinitely better to have something that is 90+% good than to have nothing at all.
Greyhawk Grognard wrote:
Tieflings come to mind as a prominent example.
I think this is the only point that I would disagree with. While I personally don't care for tieflings one whit, I think that a (tiny) bit of room can be made for them. Pathfinder has done a great job of this, for example, by letting them be there, but making them only a minor part of the setting. I think that especially prior to the Flight of Fiends, there were a great deal of demonic/devilish/fiendish creatures around that there could be plenty of offspring. Cambions would be common enough, I think, and their descendants, as well. I *do not* think that they should be anything more than very exceedingly rare, but I think that we could spare a tiny, little corner of the Empire of Iuz for them, or what have you.
Anna ... you know, I 'd forgotten about that thread! I can't believe that it's been almost three years ago precisely that Glen posted that! (linkified that for you)
I definitely agree with Rule #5:
Quote:
5th – Anna must do the maps. Period. Not subject to debate or discussion. Only if Anna is unavailable is any other cartographer acceptable.
Wouldn't the sales of 1e influence the decision? If Wizards found strong sales in 1e, might that influence them to do Greyhawk? This of course, pure speculation, I've no idea how well 1e is selling.
Dragonlance ... well, it is true that WotC hasn't done anything with DL in a decade or two ... but, they did license it to Margaret Weiss' Sovereign Stone Press...
Yup. That's exactly why I phrased it that way. But considering that none of those books showed up at any of my local gaming or book stores, I think WotC wouldn't blink at skipping right over it.
There's a lot of appeal to RL, and I wouldn't mind it coming back; I just don't see it as the tentpole setting of D&D Next, which is what I think this announcement will be about. Unless, of course, D&DN is going to be an updated version of Masque of the Red Death....
I would agree that taking out the common fantasy races and focusing on the horror aspect of RL, like Masque of the Red Death would be great. Especially with all the Vampire love resurfaced out there. But if they have sparking vampires its more than kobolds on my menu.
If GH was to be rebooted I would focus on Western Oerik as the Flanaess have been done and many GH fans can't agree on the canon of said material. So someone can place there stamp in the west. Especially if François Marcela-Froideval writes for it.
... But considering that none of those books showed up at any of my local gaming or book stores, I think WotC wouldn't blink at skipping right over it.
There's a lot of appeal to RL, and I wouldn't mind it coming back; I just don't see it as the tentpole setting of D&D Next, which is what I think this announcement will be about. ...
Hmm ... that's interesting, Nellisir. I guess maybe it's regional or, something. odd that I have most (if not all) of the books. I got every one that I saw.
I wouldn't mind Ravenloft coming back, either. But, I also agree that it's a bit too esoteric for the main focus of DnDNext. They wouldn't be going out of their way to mention it in a keynote address for the biggest convention in gaming, and doing a live streaming simulcast, if they were just going to mention that they were doing another boardgame based on Ravenloft. :) And I think that because it's so niche, they'd not make fantasy horror the central keystone of the next edition. They want this to be the biggest announcement of the year. Just like when Blizzard Entertainment does BlizzCon, and announces the new expansion to the World of Warcraft. It's big, and they want it broadcast anround the world to make the biggest splash in the marketing worl that it can.
And that's what WotC is going for ... so, I'm trying to decide which would make a bigger splash. Something that hasn't been in WotC-published books in a dozen years? Oh, wait, that could be Dragonlance *or* Greyhawk, *or* Forgotten Realmscouldn't it? Settings with most loyal fanbase? Any of 'em. Long running and establlished market already? Any. Proven sales record? All of 'em. Recorded, historical canon, but with plenty of room for new stuff? Less so FR, but still any of 'em.
So ... what've I decided? Nothing. I'm still just formulating this in my head, and waiting for 5pm Thursday night (16th)! It's like talking about the Packers vs. the Cowboys on Saturday, before going over to your buddy's house on Sunday. No one's gonna know 'til then what happens, but, it doesn't keep us from running around the snack table and talking about it while we stuff ourselves with Fritos. _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
Be careful too many fritos and you won't be able to fly. Though I'm certain you would descend a lot quicker that way. I wonder what the Vegas odds would be on what setting sees a rebirth?
Maybe "re-birth" means renaissance. I know, it's an optimistic viewpoint instead of an Oerth-shattering one, but my fingers are crossed that it's not something that lights our collective faces on fire if it is indeed a World of Greyhawk revisitation.
Perhaps Mordenkainen bumps his head, had passed out, and the whole "From the Ashes" period never really happened as it was just old Mordy having a lengthy dream-sequence
The difference between From the Ashes and some of the other fantasy world reboots is that it was a reasonable progression of the Greyhawk timeline. After all, the Greyhawk Columns in the early issues of Dragon described the War of the Golden League, which was almost on the same scale as the Greyhawk Wars. War always hovered just on the horizon of the Flanaess. It was not the massive deus ex machina that the other worlds have been subjected to.
Agreed, tarelton. That made it more palatible, though I still prefer the threat of war to actual war across the Flanaess. Hence I usually begin my campaigns about 570 CY.
Their "exciting news", usually as good as a drunken Irishman threatening you with a broken bottle.
The logical assumption would be that they're bringing Greyhawk back. All other settings that were even remotely popular have been treated like poachers treat baby seals, which means, clubbed to death.
But then again, it's Wizbro. And the head bronco is Mike Mearls. That man's nostrils are bloody from all the glue.
No offense, please. I wanted to make a snarky joke, nothing more.
I mean, it's not like Wizbro's company policy would not lend itself to it.
Personally, let me be your augury, I think unless this is just a misplaced catchphrase for more FR, I think we will see Mystara brought back, or, rather than that, the Known World. I am willing to bet on it. _________________ "A Minstrel's Memory": PBPs & Other Games, since 2005.
I think Planescape could get a reboot it was well reviewed back when it came out in 1994. Though all we can do now is speculate. Besides I know mort will be our Gencon roving reporter. Unless they podcast it on Gamerstable. It won't matter til it sees print.
Yeah I'd be fine with a Mystara reboot. I'm almost ashamed it didn't come to my mind.
Argon: Yeah our podcast will try to do some things there, but with the editing process they aren't up to live streaming or anything quick yet. I'll try to put stuff on my blog Greyhawkery, but even that will be slowly forthcoming compared to the "workcation" bloggers out there.
Argon ... perhaps you should go back and re-read the original post, man. That's kind of the point of the thing ... it's s'posed to be a live streaming event, at the address listed in the quotation. You won't *need* a podcast or a roving reporter, strictly speaking.
Icarus wrote:
The keynote begins at 7:00 p.m. at the Indiana Roof Ballroom and will also be live-streamed at DungeonsandDragons.com/events.
I guess maybe it's being missed because it's not a link, or something? Maybe I should link-ify it? I was wondering why it'd be said that we need someone to report it. I just figured that some folks wouldn't want to watch the live stream, and would rather read a summary in GreyTalk the night it happens, or read it on the thread. Don't get me wrong, I can't wait to see all the stuf that Mort puts together for us. I'm sure he'll hve several good reports, at least, on the scene, as "fast-breaking new stories".
Wow, morty, Valkaun Dain, Nellisir, what a reunion!
In all seriousness, I place my bet on Mystara, on one hand, because all along with D&D Next, "basic" has been a key term in the Wizbro semantics, and because the setting is well-known, yet not tied to one single creator name. Wizbro's whole policy during 3e and 4e was to make sure no author name becomes bigger than the company's. I can't imagine that they would bring a setting back that again makes the collaboration of the creators a key element in its success.
...Then again, it's Wizbro. They have made some decisions that were pretty stupid in the past. Not bashin', simply commenting. So, the game is really open. Who knows, perhaps they decide BIRTHRIGHT is the better choice. Not that it would be all too logical, but it's how they seem to operate. _________________ "A Minstrel's Memory": PBPs & Other Games, since 2005.
Although, I'm not entirely certain whether Ed ever wrote "spellplague" stuff for 4e D&D.
He did, both for the digital version of Dragon Magazine (among other things, he helped design New Abeir) and several novels (featuring Elminster).
But yeah, guys, this is almost certainly talking about the planned "Ed Greenwood" version of the Forgotten Realms, a version of the setting based on his own campaign instead of the later TSR additions. It's been in the pipeline a while, and I really doubt they're talking about anything else.
He did, both for the digital version of Dragon Magazine (among other things, he helped design New Abeir) and several novels (featuring Elminster).
Interesting, Rasgon! I hadn't any idea. That's fascinating to know. I'd long wondered if Ed would have told them to buzz off when they did that. More interestingly, Elminster is still around a couple of centuries later? Odd.
Quote:
It's been in the pipeline a while, and I really doubt they're talking about anything else.
I downloaded D&D next second play test and have read some of it.
I don't know how many of you who have read the first and the second play test documents. You have to agree to an NDA when you sign up for it so I can't go into details.
What caught my attention was something that had disappeared from the cleric description in this version of the play test. From a Greyhawk standpoint it might point to a significant change. It might just be an oversight but I don't think so.
Compare the two play test documents and see for yourself.
Although, I'm not entirely certain whether Ed ever wrote "spellplague" stuff for 4e D&D.
He did, both for the digital version of Dragon Magazine (among other things, he helped design New Abeir) and several novels (featuring Elminster).
But yeah, guys, this is almost certainly talking about the planned "Ed Greenwood" version of the Forgotten Realms, a version of the setting based on his own campaign instead of the later TSR additions. It's been in the pipeline a while, and I really doubt they're talking about anything else.
I am just wondering - is a hommage book really a "rebirth", and what would that one hommage book have to do with D&D's future? I hope there's a bit more to the announcement. _________________ "A Minstrel's Memory": PBPs & Other Games, since 2005.
Hey there, Joe! Great hearing from you! Always love seeing you on the boards here at Canonfire.
Thanks for pointing back to the live streaming feed from the ketnote address at GenCon this Thursday night. It was that announcement that prompted me to start this thread. From the original post:
[quote="Icarus"]Keynote Address: The Future of Dungeons & Dragons
Calling all heroes, your presence is required! Join us for an unprecedented look into the future of Dungeons & Dragons, including the evolution of the game, the re-birth of a fantasy setting, and the next generation of art. Wizards of the Coast is proud to host the first-ever Gen Con keynote address on Thursday, August 16th, to share with the legions of D&D fans what’s in store for the game that has changed gaming forever.
Speakers include Wizards of the Coast President and CEO Greg Leeds, Senior Manager for D&D R&D Mike Mearls and some of the greatest creative minds in the industry.
The keynote begins at 7:00 p.m. at the Indiana Roof Ballroom and will also be live-streamed at [url=DungeonsandDragons.com/events]DeungeonsandDragons.com/events[/url]. I'm really hoping that there will be pthers watching on Thursday evening and we all can live-chat about it early in the evening for GreyTalk. :) _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
Yeah the link would of alerted me to the fact that this was viewable online and not just at GenCon. Though I doubt I would be home in time to view it. No, I don't have a smart phone and thats by choice. So a review on here or elsewhere would most likely be how I'm exposed to the information.
@Anna yes there are some differences from the first set of documents it's nice to see some of my suggestions for bestiary and class powers or skills were implemented. Though its closer some things still need tweaking.
Yeah the link would of alerted me to the fact that this was viewable online and not just at GenCon. Though I doubt I would be home in time to view it. No, I don't have a smart phone and thats by choice. So a review on here or elsewhere would most likely be how I'm exposed to the information.
Well ... so, I added a link to the original post for the sake of posterity, and those who might wanna watch it.
But, I will be online tomorrow night, and will be in GreyTalk ... so, I will be giving a review of it, both as it's happening, and later for those who aren't available when it happens. So ... feel free to come by GreyTalk and get all 'net-geeky with me, and we'll chat about how it all went down. Now that I'm thinking of it, I will likely post a thread about it ...
Now there's an interesting turn of phrase. What makes you say that it's "been in the pipeline a while"? I mean, other than the fact that people loathed the destruction of the Realms. Obviously the book's been planned for a little while - it had to be written, at least. ... but, you make it sound as though it's been *long* in progress.
However, the simple nature of backgrounds (3 skills and a non-combat benefit) means that a lot of Greyhawk-themed backgrounds should be simple to conjure. Maybe we should start now...
And so ... The keynote address begins in about two hours! I'm alrady on mIRC, in GreyTalk ... I'm ready to chat about what is coming out, and what they're doing at GenCon ... I'm watching Twitter, FB, and any other media that I can find on GenCon. I *so* can't wait!!
What gets me is the reason they stated for going with the Realms. "There's so much untapped potential and so many areas left unexplored." They explored it in 4 editions, and now a 5th edition. They said that they wanted to go back to a simpler time, akin to 1e. To me, that sounds like they screwed it up, they're hitting the reset button, and calling it a day. I would think that Greyhawk has FAR more untapped potential (western Oerik) and far more areas to explore (Egg of Coot? Lendore Isles?). I guess this is why I'm not in charge of Wizards of the Coast...
They mentioned a whole slew of other campaign settings. After that, they mentioned they would be focusing on the Realms. They said that they wouldn't be focusing on anything else, but that such things might change down the road.
Time will tell... but unfortunately for them, I'll be playing in Greyhawk using Pathfinder!
Dumbassery is legion... glad I was playing Marklin Ticket to Ride instead of listening to this announcement of the second "reboot" of the (best) Forgotten Realms in what, 4 years?
My heart broke when they announced "Greyhawk had it's turn" for organized play, after all it got in the whole 3.x version in terms of support is a single softcover product (one of the best though, love the LGG).
Is it my ever-faulty memory playing tricks again, or did they say something vague about other settings, and then never get back to that?
Oh, you are not having some sort of fever dream. They did say that. They are just dangling the worm in the water, but there is no substantial hook for fans of other settings to bite at. They've been doing that for quite a while.
unemployed_bullywug wrote:
What gets me is the reason they stated for going with the Realms. "There's so much untapped potential and so many areas left unexplored." They explored it in 4 editions, and now a 5th edition. They said that they wanted to go back to a simpler time, akin to 1e. To me, that sounds like they screwed it up, they're hitting the reset button, and calling it a day. I would think that Greyhawk has FAR more untapped potential (western Oerik) and far more areas to explore (Egg of Coot? Lendore Isles?). I guess this is why I'm not in charge of Wizards of the Coast...
No kidding. They left FR looking like a Jackson Pollock painting...that had been torn to bits, but now they will throw a new canvas over it and, suddenly, "As you can plainly see, there is so much untapped potential in FR." They screwed up, they know that they screwed up, and so they are going to try and fix what has become their most recognized D&D brand.
FR also involves less developmental time and effort to reset, as there already is a veritable ton of material written for it, so this will be akin to a Hollywood remake. I can't really say I am surprised. I hope they end up doing a good job of things though, as that can only bode well for the future. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:06 pm; edited 2 times in total
A small part of me is relieved, based on what these guys did to the Realms, the last time round but this huge part is screaming , NO! Bring back Greyhawk and give it the love it deserves ...
That is the final nail for me, in terms of my supporting WOTC. The Realms has gotten so much support and development over the last twenty odd years!
Shesh! A 10 year old could've made those business decisions. Way to play it safe WotC! Glad I hung out at the Ram all night instead of waiting on baiting breath for this special event.
And my Sundering seminar, I can skip that now. A FR novel series? Of course it is!
As the creator of Forgotten Realms, could there have been any remaining doubt once Greenwood took the stage?
WotC has not intention of ever showing Greyhawk "love." So, "supporting" WotC with that objective in mind is a colossal waste of time and effort.
Alright ... I'm gonna ask a favor here, guys. And I am going to ask it in an even tone, trying intentionally to be as civil to others as I can. I understand that everyone has an opinion, and everyone is entitled to them. And I ask that you remember the same thing.
Just because some of you may want to loathe, hate, and generally moan about WotC, and how they're "The Devil", let's let it a little easy here. If you'd like to start a thread specifically for that, you're welcome to ... and who knows, I might be right in there with you. But, in the original post, I ask that this *not* turn into a WotC bashing thread. This one is about the announcement itself, not about how much we dislike WotC for being a horribly corupt corporation, or "Wizbro" or whatever.
Liking the World of Greyhawk is *not* the same as hating on the Forgotten Realms. Others happen to like FR as well, and we certainly are not making a "colossal waste of time" in enjoying a game that we've played for years, whether it's in the same way, or in the same setting as you. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it appropriate to be abrupt, rude, or whathaveyou to our friends and fellow gamers here on Canonfire. Let's try to be inclusive, and find a few more positive things to say, or at least less negative ways to say them.
And in the interest of a good little bit of fun, here's a bit of fun that may make the message a little more palatable. It's okay to not like things.
...Liking the World of Greyhawk is *not* the same as hating on the Forgotten Realms... The Forgotten Realms aren't so bad. And Ed Greenwood is a *really* nice guy.
-When I first started with D&D back in 1981, I started by creating a historical Earth medieval campaign with fantasy stuff thrown in. I couldn't really make it work, because I wanted vikings (of course, who doesn't? ), but I also wanted platemail avaiable. Of course, the two really don't go together.
I guess sometine in late 1982 my sister got me the original GH in the folder. (Well, part of it. She got it on discount because the western half map had been shoplifted...) But by the summer of 1983, that's all I DM'ed. Other than rarely playing in someone elses campaign (which has always been home-brew), GH has been it.
Essentially, I agree with Icarus. The only way that you can claim that another campaign is a problem is insofar as scarce WOTC (or TSR before that) resources get diverted elsewhere. (It does seem that they get a little carried away on over-focusing, but...).
Anyway, it's been about 30 years for me and GH, so I guess you can't exactly claim that there's a role-playing emergency.
There's always time. In the meantime, there's Canonfire.
PS: If WOTC did support GH, we'd probably bitch about the product. Possibly, rightly so!
Damned if they do, damned if they don't!
Liking the World of Greyhawk is *not* the same as hating on the Forgotten Realms.
I honestly don't know which boxed set I bought first. It was probably GH, but I started gaming around the time FR came out, and I bought the FR box as soon as it was released, so the two were probably pretty close together. And I like both of them. I've heard GH called "european" fantasy (lots of countries covering the map), and FR called "american" fantasy (lots of wide-open spaces), and while that's a gross oversimplification, there's a degree of truth. They are different. And you can have both.
(And on an almost totally unrelated note, I'd love love love to see some kind of "authentic" "American" fantasy setting. Not just an elf and a dwarf dressed up in chaps and six-guns, but something...different. I don't know what it'd look like, though.)
...I'd love love love to see some kind of "authentic" "American" fantasy setting. Not just an elf and a dwarf dressed up in chaps and six-guns, but something...different...
Alright ... I'm gonna ask a favor here, guys . . . Just because some of you may want to loathe, hate, and generally moan about WotC, and how they're "The Devil", let's let it a little easy here . . . The Forgotten Realms aren't so bad. And Ed Greenwood is a *really* nice guy.
Icarus, you have proven yourself a friend to me, in the past, and I am not interested in making you angry, but lately, you never seem to understand anything I say.
First, I am acquainted with several persons who know Ed Greenwood and I have no problem believing that he is a great guy. I'm not complaining about him. I'd be happy to have his autograph on one of my Elminster novels.
Secondly, I've read most of the Forgotten Realms novels. I own them. Do you? I happen to love Salvatore's Drizzt, he's one of my favorite characters.
Third, I do not "hate" Wizards of the Coast, I have a quick link to their website and "look in" periodically, I dare say that that is a type of "support." And purchasing so many of their products (novels) has undoubtedly assisted in the funding of their many ventures.
But, if anyone is "supporting" Wizards in the hope that "they" will do something with Greyhawk, then they're wasting their time. Wizards has repeatedly shown that they have no real interest in Greyhawk and I happen to think that that could be a good thing. It depends.
People should support Wizards because they like all of Wizards' products, not in the hopes of winning support for a single product, unless that product is Forgotten Realms, which is now proven -- beyond all reasonable doubt -- to be Wizards' "flag ship."
Well I could not get logged onto the Internet last night for Greytalk. So missed the chat which was more of a concern then the announcement. I will still playtest the materials and if the final product is good I can change the edition for my GH game. O'well looks like the Greyhawk fans will have to write their own material. As rare as that is a few will take up the task. O'h wait you mean they have been doing that for years? No Way! Really?
I guess that's why we submit material to this site here! It would of been nice but we shall continue as is.
M-S ... despite my declaration of intent to not offend anyone, and even a little lighthearted humour in the video at the end of my post, you seemto have taken personal umbrage to it.
Whatever. As you like. It's your personal priviledge
But, please, if you're on the thread to defend yourself publicly against my mailign attacks, or whatever, please take it off-thread. This one is about the re-brith of a fantasy setting.
Icarus, you have proven yourself a friend to me, in the past, and I am not interested in making you angry, but lately, you never seem to understand anything I say.
Icarus wrote:
M-S ... despite my declaration of intent to not offend anyone, and even a little lighthearted humour in the video at the end of my post, you seemto have taken personal umbrage to it.
OK, lads, deep breath and all.
M-S, I know I misunderstood your post at least in part, and I apologize for it. I have a knee-jerk reaction to WotC- and edition-bashing (actually, any kind of bashing), and didn't realize your post was a response to an earlier post.
That said, I don't think Icarus quoted you out of any particular malice (though I might be wrong); I think your post was simply...convenient. Ic's post stands on it's own without any quotes, but he did quote and it's done, so hopefully we can move on.
(But....Drizzt? Really? Is that even legal on this site?)
;)
Nellisir, you're too much sometimes! I mean that in a good/funny way.
Fortunately, I only post in small doses.
I read a lot (most? all?) of the FR fiction for the first...I dunno. Five years? I certainly had Darkwalker on Moonshae as soon as it came out (before the boxed set; I was really pissed when I found out most of the Realms was culturally blah instead of hardcore Celtic.) And The Crystal Shard. Good light reading; eventually it just didn't work out from a time/cost perspective (I read fairly fast, so most of the D&D novels were only good for an hour or two).
I'm pretty sure I still have my Darkwalker on Moonshae book around somewhere. Probably The Crystal Shard, too.
I was really pissed when I found out most of the Realms was culturally blah instead of hardcore Celtic.
Well, as I said before, we all have our pet peeves. For instance, I stopped following anything "Kelben Blackstaff" when it ceased being Kelben Blackstaff and became his -- what? -- daughter? Granddaughter? I forget. Shows the extent of my interest in that little "turn of events."
And though I don't game in Faerun, the Spellplague really turned me off as well. During the "Time of Troubles" Ao stepped in to make the Gods behave themselves, then, with the Spellplague, Ao suddenly allows them to murder one another as they see fit:
Tyr kills Helm. Cyric and Shar kill Mystra/Midnight.
Huh? How/when did Ao's personality change so drastically? And a "good" god kills another "good" god?
"They" were just getting too weird with the novels/setting.
...But, please, if you're on the thread to defend yourself publicly against my mailign attacks, or whatever, please take it off-thread...
-Rushing in where solonars fear to tread, I'd say that if a perceived attack is public, then it sort of requires a public defense. But...
If I read M-S's post right, he was saying that supporting WOTC as a way of indirectly supporting GH was a rather inefficient way of supporting GH. If you support WOTC, it should be because you like their other stuff (which he apparently does).
You were simply trying to keep the thread from being high-jacked, which is fair.
Icarus wrote:
...This one is about the re-brith of a fantasy setting...
...and that fantasy would be The Forgotten Realms.
Darkwalker on Moonshae was one of my favorite role playing based novels. One game mechanics don't take place in the book and the writing itself had a very Celtic feel to it. It stands on its own as a good novel and is well worth the read. Though Chronicles from Dragonlance was a good series IMO.
The best line of roleplaying novels overall was the shadowrun books. I was surprised how well they read. One thing I think the Greyhawk setting truly lacked was a well supported novel line.
So now that the news is over guess we can close the chapter on this thread and focus on some of the others.
Icarus another worth while thread keep them coming my fine-featured friend.
There were some books that came out, Argon, based on modules from Greyhawk, though your point is well-grounded. The following were printed as storylines off modules: Against the Giants, White Plume Mtn, Descent to the Depths (or was it Vault of the Drow, or both?), and, I think also Tomb of Horrors. If memory serves, I believe they even published a book based off Village of Hommlet or the Temple of Elemental Evil, but I could be wrong. I've got most (all?) of these books buried somewhere in my shed. They are about 5+ yrs old.
Temple of Elemental Evil. I gave it 1 star on Goodreads. Here is my entire review, "The worst book I have ever read all the way through. By the end it appeared that the editor didn't even care about all the continuity errors and just gave up on it."
Mind you I said worst book I've ever read all the way through. There are plenty of books that I couldn't even get through, although I'm still not not sure why ToEE isn't in this group.
I only read the Against the Giants novel. It was enjoyable for the memories it inspired, but was not a good read in its own right. I didn't bother with the others in the series.
There were some books that came out, Argon, based on modules from Greyhawk, though your point is well-grounded. The following were printed as storylines off modules: Against the Giants, White Plume Mtn, Descent to the Depths (or was it Vault of the Drow, or both?), and, I think also Tomb of Horrors. If memory serves, I believe they even published a book based off Village of Hommlet or the Temple of Elemental Evil, but I could be wrong...
-I haven't read any of them. I did read Keep on the Bordlerlands. I bought it on e-bay thinking it was the up-dated module (DOH!). The Tolkein estate doesn't have anything ot worry about, but it was a good read. It followed B2 very closely, but fleshed the Keep out nicely (e.g. the staff actually got names ). IIRC, one of the minor characters was a Wolf Nomad, but that's about as close as it got to GH.
I wasn't sure if there was a novel about that module or not...
I guess the point stands fairly well. Compared to both Forgotten Realms and even Dragonlance, the World of Greyhawk was indeed lacking in solid writers, storylines, and even character development from a literary perspective.
In fact, I'd put my own writing skills against any of the books written thus far, and perhaps that is not saying much!
I'd nominate Witch as the Editor-in-Chief for his keen eye regarding syntax, punctuation, grammar, etc.
... Compared to both Forgotten Realms and even Dragonlance...
-Never touched either series.
I also read EGG's two Gord books (Artifact of Evil and the other one), and the three Mika books because someone one lent them to me. I now have both of the Gord books because a library was clearing its shelves and handing them out as freebies.
I read them for inspiration/canon. You get plenty of that in the Gord books, but the Mika books have largely been nixed as canon. I actually like the idea that many of the Wolf Nomads might have a mystical connection to Wolf companions, although I think it was over-generalized.
FWIW, I was just reading Living Greyhawk Journal (number 4?). It has an article on the library at (IIRC) Grey College, where Iquander spends his time rooting out the historical atrocities of a thinly disguised Rose Estes.
James ... now I'm gonna have to go back and look at the Oerth Journal for that issue! That sounds rather fascinating! I didn't know that'd ever been done in print. That's actually kind of a big deal to me. :) I haven't ever read the entire series, but, like you, I have GH #1 & #2, by Gygax.
It deals with Grey College (I think). Anyway, they describe things like the Savant Sage working on another chapter, and they note that the Head Librarian is Iquander, and he spends a lot of time rooting out bad "history" like (IIRC) that of "the discredited" Estarius Rose (Rose Estes), the tale of a "child-like gargoyle puppet" (a hit at Gargoyle, Puppets and Child's Play), and the bogus history of Greyhawk Castle (a hit at the first Greyhawk module).
Crap. Right. Living Greyhawk Journal. That was my fault. I knew which one to pull off my shelf. (The only one of the two magazines in question that's in-print on my shelf!) I just wasn't thinking when I typed it. I was actually in the doctor's office, waiting for him to come in, and mis-tpyed the name of the magazine.
Crap. Right. Living Greyhawk Journal. That was my fault. I knew which one to pull off my shelf. (The only one of the two magazines in question that's in-print on my shelf!) I just wasn't thinking when I typed it. I was actually in the doctor's office, waiting for him to come in, and mis-tpyed the name of the magazine.
I'll put out errata on the post sometime in late August, when I've had times to review the thread for errors and misattributions.
I just didn't see the need to send you on a wild griffon chase.
Keep on the Borderlands might as well not have the Greyhawk brand on it - there's nothing in there except for one mention of (I think) Kord about 85% of the way into it.
Against the Giants seems to lump Paladins, Wizards and Clerics all together as if they all cast the same spells.
"The Justicar" books are a decent read.
ToEE is decent, but really they'd need a four volume series to do real justice to it.
It deals with Grey College (I think). Anyway, they describe things like the Savant Sage working on another chapter, and they note that the Head Librarian is Iquander, and he spends a lot of time rooting out bad "history" like (IIRC) that of "the discredited" Estarius Rose (Rose Estes), the tale of a "child-like gargoyle puppet" (a hit at Gargoyle, Puppets and Child's Play), and the bogus history of Greyhawk Castle (a hit at the first Greyhawk module).
-Errata: I checked last night. The Savant-Sage is at Grey College, but Iquander is at the Library of Greyhawk.
...Though I did not think puppets was as bad as most GH fans made it out to be...
-Yeah, I've discussed this elsewhere:
OK, "Freddie McKruger" is dopey. If you don't like it, change the name, or even more easily, in most cases you don't have to reveal his name. I have no problem with the puppets as a sort of low level golem, either.
At least some of Puppets is part of canon, because Larissa of the Gnarley is now the Lord Mayor of Dyvers. I haven't been able to find it, but somewhere in what I think was canon, she married the illusionist (whose name I forget). I think it would be neat to send PCs through the adventure, and have them make the acquaintance of a future Lord Mayor of Greyhawk (assuming they don't get her killed ).
I intend to use Rockburgh one of these days, perhaps as a prequel to Seaton, or maybe after, or maybe just as a stop-over to somewhere else. I'll accept the odd form of Gargoyle. Why not?
I sold my copy of Child's Play, but I've used it as inspiration for a corrupt canton in northern Perrenland which sends their conscripts through a magical gate to serve as mercenaries for the Horned Society.
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Any of 'em. Long running and establlished market already? 
<shrugs> 
<fanboy squeal> 
