Canonfire!

Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:46 am The reading of Quag Keep

I came across a copy of Quag Keep the other day, and I'm enjoying it more than I've enjoyed any other "D&D" book in a long time. The Greyhawk (and the D&D, actually) it presents is clearly derived from Gygax's, but it's not the same. Once I'm done, and have some time, I'll start mapping out the differences in the world and the rules as I see them. (I'm on page 102 of 192 at the moment, and what follows is not complete.)

Places:
Greyhawk;
Grand Duchy of Urnst (north of GH);
Hither Hills (half-elves scorned by true elves);
Yerocunbry & Faraaz (neighbors & possibly hostile?);
the Great Kingdom of Blackmoor (north of Urnst?);
Koeland (also spelled Keoland);
Var (either place or deity; known from "x of Var" reference;
the "Northern Clans" (followers of the High Horned Lady; her female followers form amazonian mercenary bands under the sign of the Unicorn);
the tower of the Wizard Kyark outside Greyhawk;
the River Vold (flows north? borders Yerocumbry & Faraaz?);
Grand Duchy of Geofp (in the foothills of hte western mountains; beyond lies both the Dry Steppes and the Sea of Dust; ongoing civil war with both sides formally led by Chaos);
Narm (place in Geofp?; x of Narm raids into Dry Steppes, or is raided by);
Land of the Holy Lords (possibly Faraaz?);
island Duchy of Maritiz;
Great Bay;
Wild Coast;
Dry Steppes (north of the Sea of Dust; home to the Nomad Raiders of Lar);
Sea of Dust (rumors of lost & petrified ships);
The Seven Swamps (lizardmen);
Troilan Swamps (probably one of the Seven Swamps);
Keo the Less (probably a place, as it was "rieved")

Deities: Thera (The Maned Lady);
The High Horned Lady;
Landron of the Inner Light;

People: Lord Fon du-Ling of Faraaz, Mage Wogan, wizard Hystaspes,

PCs:
Naile Fangtooth: barbarian, pseudo-dragon follower, has learned to adopt boar-shape and is considered a wereboar (no prejudice associated with it; learned skill, not curse/inherited), heals fast, rage.
Ingrge: Elf, called a "ranger", knowledge of magic, able to speak with animals & birds (& trees?) including giant versions (elven trait, not ranger).
Wymarc: human bard. Can call giant eagles; sonic attacks vs shadows
Deav Dyne: cleric; protection, knowledge, and healing spells
Milo Jagan: skilled fighter, can fight from horseback. Has two magical ? rings of unknown ability.
Yevele: "battle-maid"; able to cast hold person once, but not repeat/relearn it; skilled fighter. Perceptive.
Gulth: lizardman fighter (?). Needs to keep skin moist, doesn't talk much.

Chaos and Law are the two great forces; neutrals can go either way, and aren't trusted by either. Old Places (Old Magic?) predates both and seems to be a third power (not the same as neutral).

Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:59 am

I was in seventh grade when I picked this book up in the school library. It was the first 'Fantasy' book I read. It must have been just after my parents bought me and my brother the red Basic and the blue Expert boxed sets for Christmas that year. I didn't know anything about the World of Greyhawk then and am amazed at the references from the book you listed above.

I do remember that I didn't like the stupid rings on the Fighter's thumbs that were large enough to hold dice inside them and kept rolling whenever something important was about to happen. I also disliked the use of a Lizardman as a PC since it wasn't allowed in the rules, but mostly because he was useless half the time because he couldn't keep his skin moist. Oh, well. Razz

I do remember the book fondly because I read it even before I read The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings.

SirXaris

Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:36 am

Interesting finds in the book Nellisir.

I have never read it myself, as I have often shun D&D novels. Most are poorly written and some are not worth the ink or paper used to produce them. However, I am interested on seeing your analysis on the book.

Later

Argon

Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:13 pm

Quag Keep is one of those that I haven't read. Sad

So keep us posted as to what you find, by way of comparison. Cool

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Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:05 pm

OK, I slammed through the rest of it, which was not the best use of an hour+, but ce la vie. My first impression? This is possibly the most interesting "gaming" novel I've read, and I mean that in a good way. The -point- of the adventure is a bit unclear, but it's well told.

In summary, a number of players (we never really see them, so their identities are unclear) are transported to GH and "become" their characters through the machinations of the DM/referee. If you've read Joel Rosenberg's "The Sleeping Dragon", the setup is almost identical, except Joel goes into a lot more detail. The characters are, for the most part, not aware of their "player" identities. The referee is a power "alien" to Greyhawk and not allied with either Law or Chaos. The characters, who barely remember their "player" identities, willingly surrender them at the climax.

Each of the characters has a bracer that holds a number of oddly shaped dice. These roll and tumble before any encounters orchestrated by the referee. The characters can somewhat influence the results by concentrating on the dice. The dice are otherwise locked in place. Encounters with native creatures are not heralded by the dice.

The characters are skilled. Offhand, I'd say around 9th-level. The enemy druid relies on summoned creatures for aid; the PC bard's two main abilities are his magical/musical abilities, and his lore. The enemy illusionist is pretty badass. Character abilities could easily be portrayed with 3e rules; 1e & earlier would be harder.

The Quag Keep of the title has nothing to do with Lake Quag in Greyhawk; rather it's a ruin in a quagmire magically moved from elsewhere in Greyhawk to the Sea of Dust and sustained there (the border between the two is "straight as an arrow".

The biggest flaw in the book is the lack of motive. It's not clear (although I might have just missed it) exactly why the referee is doing this. The characters defeat him in the end, at least temporarily, and gain an "alien" artifact doing so. The novel ends with them "activating" the artifact to see what it does. (I'd be clearer if I could put spoilers over it).

Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:14 pm

One interesting note: the elf, although clearly experienced in magic, doesn't ever cast spells (that I noticed). He does appear to "support" or reinforce some of the other spellcasters, however. I'd model this in 3e by giving elves a racial ability to apply metamagic feats to other people's spells, say +1 level per day at 1st level, +2 levels at 3rd, +3 levels at 6th, and +4 levels at 9th. A 9th-level elf could add 4 spell levels to a single spell, or 1 spell level to four spells, in a day.

Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:35 pm

Another note: Whatshisface (James M., that's it) over in Grognardia has a review of it, which is pretty tepid. I'm not sure if he wanted to like it more, or less. Either way, I think most of the commentary, and probably his review, are overthought (one commenter gets upset because the characters "cross Greyhawk" in five days. Not about Faraaz, or Yerocumbry: about walking speed in the novel vs the Darlene maps. Someone else thinks the book is Norton's response to a railroading DM.)

<sigh>

Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:07 pm

Yeah, this is best understood as a "proto-Greyhawk" book. It has a few place names in common, and there are a few themes that can be ported over to a Greyhawk campaign, but it really takes a lot of liberties with the material as it was later published.

An interesting bit of Greyhawkiana, of course, but hardly canon. That said, back when it first came out I bought it and loved it. I think it's been at least a decade since I've last re-read it.

Joe / GG
http://www.greyhawkgrognard.com

Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:19 pm

Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:54 pm

Interesting take Nellisir,

You may be right as we all know Gary had notes all over the map. So the author may have given what was an accurate account as the setting stood at that time. This seems to have influenced the D&D cartoon as well. Though no dice bracers.

Later

Argon

Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:30 pm

If you can find Return to Quag Keep or a omnibus version of the two the introduction is written by Gygax and Norton where they talk about how the book came about. I liked Norton's Witch World series but found Quag Keep to be disappointing and thus never made it through a quarter of it.

Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:34 pm

I think Nellisir is correct. Even the Greyhawk Folio wouldn't be put out until a couple of years after this book was written, so I don't think I would be too amiss in guessing that Andre Norton only had some cursory notes from EGG on Greyhawk to base the novel off of (but may have made some things her own anyways).

I got a hold of a copy of Quag Keep last summer, and read it in the fall. I agree with most of what is in Nellisir's and James's reviews. Some interesting ideas, some good action, but a very thin plot and a minimum of character development. A prequel and a sequel would have made for a better overall story, due to the information that could then have been covered rather than be glossed over as it was. For a Greyhawk fan, Quag Keep is worth reading, but don't expect to have your socks blown off.
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Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:27 pm

Cebrion,

Well getting one's socks blown off can be costly. I'm sure the washer and dryer are in cahoots. As for every pair of socks that enter the two machines at least one goes missing! Shocked

I know, I'm investigating them both and I'm glad this novel will not join in their evil plot to make my socks disappear. Surprised

Later

Argon

Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:38 pm

I'm intrigued now. I've put off reading this book for too long. It HAS to be better than any of Estes' novels, canon or not.

Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:32 pm

I read it for the first time last year. I found it a very painful read, one of the worst books I've ever read, but somehow I made it to the end. That's all a matter of taste, of course...

I have the sequel, but haven't been able to bring myself to read it yet.

Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:03 am

Do it! DOOO IT!!! Laughing

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Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:08 pm

With a nick like Twiceborn, I figured you would have read the second book by now.

Oh and like Cebrion said. DO IT... DO IT... Come on Twiceborn, you can DO IT... Wink

Later

Argon

Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:41 am

I hope he doesn't end up needing this sort of set-up...

...but somebody start up Beethoven's Ninth Symphony just in case.

Laughing

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Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:19 pm

Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:04 pm

Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:28 pm

Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:00 pm

Cebrion,

Was that what you needed to read the Estes novels? Laughing

Later

Argon

Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:03 am

Nah, I was younger, but thankfully not too impressionable. I recommend Estes' Endless Quest series books ("Dungeon of "Dread, "Mountain of Mirrors", "The Pillars of Pentagarn", etc ) very highly though; especially for younger readers. People often forget how fun and good those books are, and that Estes is the one who wrote most of the books that launched the series (and is really responsible for how well received the series was). Awesome Elmore cover art surely didn't hurt either though. Credit where credit is due.

I just don't recommend the Mika Oba Greyhawk stuff (but some people might still like bits of it anyways).

But, back to "Return to Quag Keep". Somebody has to read it and post what oddball Greyhawk (-ish) info is in the book, just because. Cool

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Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:01 am

Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:27 pm

What I find interesting is how Norton approach to the novel has lent itself to many spin-offs. One the Dungeon and Dragon cartoon players were actual people from the real world who are transported to a D&D world. Many modern cartoons also involved taking kids from this world and transporting them into the games universe. Yugi oh, Beyblade, Chaotic, and many more.

It seems she may have inspired this approach for future writers of fantasy Sci-Fi fiction.

Later

Argon

Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:20 am

Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:14 am

Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:15 am

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:55 am

Quag Keep had a number of nice details in it. The description of the Sea of Dust was very evocative, even if it portrays the Suel (not named as such) as a people who sailed around through the water-like dust in wind-powered sleds instead of having a temperate empire that was transformed. The dragon and the lich were both effective and interestingly-described. The description of Greyhawk City in that novel is one of my favorite ever, portraying in a few words a compelling vision of a city on the knife's edge of the war between Law and Chaos, a seedy frontier town where Chaos-worshiping orcs and warlocks rubbed shoulders with Law-worshiping priests and paladins, and adventurers and sell-swords abounded. The gods that Norton invented made for interesting fantasy religions, not entirely incompatible with the ones Gygax later created. The Horned Lady and the Maned Lady both work as aspects of Ehlonna, for example, and Landron could be Pholtus.

The shadow monsters were pretty cool, too, and the protagonists felt very D&D.

I only browsed briefly through Jean Rabe's sequel, but it didn't seem to take place on Oerth at all, not even a thinly disguised Oerth with the serial numbers filed off to protect them from legal difficulties. It was just a generic fantasy world.

Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:21 pm

Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:29 pm

Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:32 pm

Nellisir,

Thanks missed the s. So she was a he, that now reads as she. Happy

Later

Argon

Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:38 pm

Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:57 pm

Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:25 am

JHSII,

I liked the Beast Master not so much the movie, though I've seen much worse. So she was 93 when she passed. Looks like she had a good life and was an accomplished writer. I'll have to look up that Gurps Witch World book. Seems many secrets have been found by just perusing Quag Keep. Wink

Later

Argon

Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:18 pm

Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:23 pm

Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:03 am

(care of mortellan) Wink

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Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:23 pm

I liked how some of the denizens of GH City in QK used "fire wasps" as a light source.