I know not everyone cares for the way Carl Sargent handled the GH Wars. So what would you have done differently if you had free rein (which you do of course. It's your campaign) to shape the years after the initial events given in the WGG and Dragon articles by Gygax, escalating conflict throughout the Flanaess. That's your jumping off point.
I always disliked how the Scarlet Brotherhood was handled. At this point, I would have them infiltrating the more Suloise-oriented areas of Keoland (at least I see them as being more Suloise-oriented), the southern, Rhola lands, focused on Gradsul. Over the decades they have been worming their way into the power structure, convincing important people that the Sheldomar went wrong by uniting with Oeridians. They rankled under the return of Neheli kings, who largely proved ineffective, after the Rhola kings of the "Imperial Phase." The final straw was selecting Kimbertos as King, instead of someone who deserved it, Duke Luschan VIII. Anyway, I haven't thought all the details out, but an effort is made to displace Kimbertos (maybe it succeeds) and civil war erupts in Keoland, with Duke Luschan being backed by Brotherhood advisors, and being the most united and powerful faction.
IMC I'm kind of working toward something like this by having Suloise knights from the south having infiltrated Sterich, as part of a relatively successful effort to hold back the giant threat. The giants were defeated in battle, and the Suloise families (Some of whom secretly have Brotherhood connections) were granted lands in western Sterich. Eventually they gained enough political clout to back a faction to displace the Marchioness (The Marquess was lost in battle against the giants), and take control of her young son, crowning him as Marquess. They're pulling the strings of their puppets on the Privy Council, who are mainly composed of older, more established Sterish families, while at the same time forming secret alliances with the giants and their humanoid followers.
I fear that I will likely be the only one who actually liked, for the most part, how the Wars were handled. I liked pretty much ALL of Carl Sargent's products. Maybe I am alone on this. I am fine with that. Here is why I liked what happened.
For once, the BAD GUYS kicked butt. The forces of Good got their arses handed to them. That's why I have always preferred The Empire Strikes Back as my all time favorite Star Wars film (A New Hope is great b/c it was my generation's FIRST episode, but I still like Empire).
I do think that Iuz was allowed too much free reign, however. I did NOT like how he trounced the Hierarchs so easily given their power base, reducing them to nothingness. I do NOT mind that he crushed the Bandit Lands and fooled the barbarian rabble, though. But I think the Hierarchs should've put up a better resistance than was cited. They are a cohesive group of VERY powerful individuals, including high priests of Nerull, who should have exceedingly difficult wards in place, as well as incredibly tough guards from the Hells. Look at the spheres priests of Nerull can access (from a 2e perspective). I just don't see the Hierarchs falling that easily and I think they should've offered stiffer resistance to Iuz, perhaps thwarting him entirely as his first big setback.
In fact, I was kinda hoping that Nerull would take affront to losing his power base in Oerth, even though he 'reaps his rewards from many worlds and Planes.' I liked the idea of Evil crushing Evil more than the stereotypical Good beats Evil plot. For that matter, I like plots where Good can even battle Good, for even though people may be Good, it doesn't mean they get along...
I liked how the Great Kingdom was handled. It reminded me (always has) of the ancient Roman Empire with the internecine assassinations and fratricidal warfare. In the end, it crumbled because of internal dissent (not sure why the Hextorian faith didn't try to unite it more cohesively, though), and I thought that was just fine. Now there are smaller, petty fiefs, all vying for control.
The Scarlet Brotherhood didn't offend me, though I can see how some (our author included) may question and dislike the overboard infiltration of other nations. Even as magical spying and covert operations can be used to insinuate onself, they can be foiled by like means of counter-intelligence.
I thought the Giant onslaught was a different tactic to take, but not sure about the timing of it all. Too coincidental, UNLESS, as I have always believed, Iuz was behind it all. I thought I stumbled across material somewhere that the Old One was, but that is not conclusive.
I was completely fine with the rise of the Pomarj, especially given that there were Scarlet monks as members of the SlaveLords (Milerjoi and Kerin), who could've incited the internal rise of power. But I don't necessarily think the Brotherhood was necessary for that powderkeg to ignite. The rabble of the Pomarj could've just as easily tried to take advantage of the turmoil sweeping the Flanaess and launched their own strikes. Personally, I would've had the Slavers reunite and rise from the proverbial ashes, perhaps with completely new members (especially if the original Lords of Nine were killed).
As a complete surprise, I very much liked that Rary became a traitor to his own circle, slaying two powerful associates! That was awesome. What I also enjoyed about it was that he acted in accordance to his OWN designs, allying with NO ONE but himself! Great stuff, that.
Overall, though, I was pretty pleased with the outcome of the Wars, with the exceptions I cited earlier.
You're not alone Lanthorn. I liked a lot of the individual elements of the wars as extrapolation of GH's history but what I disliked was lumping them all together into one great conflict. This smacked too much to me of deus ex machina in order to change the setting for a new generation and make every area more gritty.
I can buy Iuz's machinations to a certain extent although I too disliked how easily the Hierarchs were defeated. They provided another source of intrigue and to fold them into Iuz so easily made no sense.
The manipulation of the barbarians I can buy to a certain extent but to bring Ket into the plot in the west was implausible at best.
The Scarlet Brotherhood invasions made some sense but I'm not sure they would have been able to muster the resources so quickly to come out into the open so quickly. Perhaps conquering a single nation may have made more sense.
In terms of the rise of the Pomarj, this makes sense to me as well and I'm pretty sure that Turosh Mak was identified as a former Slavelord somewhere. In any event, that's how he arose IMC.
The war between Furyondy and Iuz makes good sense as does the disintegration of the Great Kingdom and Osson's charge was a great touch to add to the Wars. It seems likely and sensible that the decadent, fiend-seeing Aerdy would tear their own kingdom apart at some point. It would have been good, though, to see some more pre-Wars source material on the place before it all went to hell (often literally).
Finally, in the west, a second giant invasion makes sense but to coincide it with the wider conflict is too convenient unless, as you say Lanthorn, Iuz was behind this too.
Overall, I like the extrapolation of history that happened in the Wars but I would have spread this out into several different conflicts. World wars are a relatively recent phenomenon in the real world and I would leave them out of fantasy settings unless you are going for a LotR good vs evil grand conflict.
In terms of the rise of the Pomarj, this makes sense to me as well and I'm pretty sure that Turosh Mak was identified as a former Slavelord somewhere. In any event, that's how he arose IMC.
I believe Theg Narlot, half-orc fighter-assassin (or thief), comes to mind.
For the most part I liked it. I would have had the Scarlet Brotherhood remain a more secret society manipulating things rather than having open conflicts. Other changes would be: an alliance between Iuz and the Horned Society rather than the trouncing they received, The Great Kingdom break up would have been over a returned House Rax and the war stalemating instead of being ended by a treaty. The biggest change would be Iuz being replaced by a returned Vecna.
The betrayal of Rary would have happened but early on to make sure the Co8 was not able to intercede in the war. _________________ Agape,
I was very pleased with how Carl Sargent handled the aftermath of the Greyhawk Wars, and my only regret is that we did not get to see more of his vision; he only got to begin to lay the foundation of it with three products that set the stage for events in 585 CY.
I suspect Sargent's British background informed his portrayal of the postwar environment. Much of it echoes the period after WWI, as states and empires collapsed, food and goods were in short supply, governments struggled to keep some control, and new idealogies rose in a world that had fundamentally changed in just five years.
As far as specifics, I have few complaints at all. From the Ashes was very well done, and by paralleling the construction of the original folio and box, it appeared to be almost an homage as compared to how another setting was ripped apart every five years. Marklands provided the first real detailed look at two major realms. The only thing I would have done differently in Marklands would have been to spend a little more time on local culture... it never quite seemed we escaped from one state in the Flanaess had roughly the same culture as another. Iuz the Evil was a fantastic gazateer of his evil Empire. Considering the relative paucity of canonical source material Carl Sargent had to work with, I thought he did a fantastic job here too. Ivid the Undying probably needed to go through another draft (most northern barbarians are Suel, not Flan), but likewise it appeared to be a quality product.
What I would have liked to have seen Carl Sargent do is take over Rary the Traitor and make it fit more with the world he was putting together. Rary the Traitor could have been a great acessory, but it really just turned into a list of where monsters and Rary where at without much focus at all. It really could have used Carl's vision to bring it up to standard.
Okay, sorry, probably my fault for starting out my example with "I always disliked how the...," but I'm looking for what you would have done differently, as a theoretical exercise. Just spit-balling, you know? No offense, but we've talked to death the "Why I hate/love what Carl Sargent did" thing. I'm looking for another angle on that.
I will double down on redoing Rary the Traitor. If I was Carl, I would have made that my next project after Ivid the Undying. Rary is supposed to be one of the main villians of the post-war campaign, but the accessory is a steaming... well, you get what I mean. It is only 60 pages, but 20+ pages are fluff, and the rest reflect the low esteem TSR had for Greyhawk. The editing is horrible, it violates game rules, and has the flavor of an adventure I threw together when I was 12. Carl could have reorganized and expanded the accessory, brought order to it with the format he used in Marklands et. al. and created a much better product.
I know this is a little thing, but it is little things that matter to me.
I really liked what Carl Sargent did for the Greyhawk setting. Now I really like smillian approach. I would of had the wars carry on longer with Greyhawk being the center for which many fractured countries prescribed to for aid.
The Scarlet brotherhood I think would be able to work more in the shadows of a war they were not directly responsible for. Now I would of had Iuz forces originally ally with the Bandit Kingdoms having them expand into the Horned society and the Shield Lands. This way the horned society would still fold. Iuz then quickly overcomes the Bandit lands as they are spread to thin to combat Iuz treachery. With converted former members of the horned society Iuz takes down the Shield Lands which refuse to join sides with Furyondy much in the same way it originally happened.
The barbarians attacked who ever Vatun (Iuz) tells them too. One of the major members of the Horned Society actually finds the final sword in the Five shall be one saga. The Scarlet Brotherhood secretly attains the weapons and has their influence in the barbarian lands spread. The five are reunited and Vatun is freed beating Iuz in combat though being returned to the outer planes as his home plane is not Oerth. This begins the end of the Wars.
The Soul husks are collected and the Boneheart is looking for children born from a god so they can re-invoke the essence of their lord Iuz in this individual.
Just some ideas I am always thinking of other ways to do things. Whether or not I like what an author has written.
Later
Argon
Last edited by Argon on Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
Finally, I agree again, that it should not have been a massive "world war". Each of these should be separate conflicts, unrelated to one another, even if they do happen at roughly similar times.
They way I read the timeline of the wars this was what I thought they were. You have the main conflict which is Iuz vs. Furyondy, Shield Lands, Bandit Kingdoms, etc. Another conflict involving the Great Kingdom and another in the Pomarj.
Was I looking at it wrong? _________________ Agape,
I think it's not a coincidence that all these wars happen simultaneously. The Great Kingdom chooses that moment to attack Almor and Nyrond because they know the nations will get no support from their allies in Furyondy (and Nyrond has to worry about Iuz to the north as well). The Scarlet Brotherhood chooses that moment to invade because the Iron League is too preoccupied by the Great Kingdom's invasion to resist. Turrosh Mak chooses that moment to attack the Wild Coast because, with all the other wars tying up resources, that's when the coast is at its most vulnerable. The giants and drow launch their invasions of Geoff and Sterich then because they know Keoland will get no help from Furyondy or the Principality of Ulek if it decides to come to its client nations' aid.
Once Iuz got the ball rolling, the other long-planned invasions were inevitable. If not for the other wars, the Scarlet Brotherhood might well have spent more time in hiding, undermining its enemies in secret, but they knew they would have no better opportunity.
It's Greyhawk Wars, plural, not the Greyhawk War, but while the wars were separate, they were interrelated. It would have been silly for Ivid to wait until peace was declared between Iuz and his enemies (one way or another) to launch his own strike.
I concur with Great Sage Rasgon on this.. it made good tactical sense for "parties" concerned to make their moves when they did.
More to the point of Sargent though.. I also agree with others, he did the best he could with the elements already set into motion, and then was pulled from the project ( or the project pulled) before the seeds could take to full fruit to see where things would have ended up.
IMO many disliked some of the tempo because it echoed that of the Forgotten Realms in many aspects, (cataclysms, power brokering, world events, etc) instead of leaving the course of events to the DMs as GH had usually done.
Though I still have issues resolving the whole Flight of Fiends / Staff of Rao thing.
Lastly, IMC while the SB took a more active role, its still their methodology to do it from the shadows... not as "blatant" as some of the canon elements.
Interesting response rasgon.
Plenty of historical evidence exists for the conclusion that aggression fuels the aspirations of other nations especially if the object of those ambitions is perceived as weakened or otherwise distracted by the initial conflict.
I won't rehash the conflict but feel at the heart of the nagging discontent is the forced means to justify the aggression. Rather then allow its genesis to be mundane motivations, CS relied overmuch on spectacular events for his wartime justifications. Spectular events such as abyssial charm spells, divine masquerades, and the like should be used sparing. So many used so close together leaves a suspicion that isn't it all a little too convenient.
Interestingly, the mundane motivations seem the least popular as exemplified through opportunist invasions by the pomarj and kettites. The most debated remains the openess of the SB conquests but CS within the supplement did elude to the reasons within the faction sections The ascendance of a new generation caused the doctrinal shift as they lacked the patience of their predecessors.
IMO many disliked some of the tempo because it echoed that of the Forgotten Realms in many aspects, (cataclysms, power brokering, world events, etc) instead of leaving the course of events to the DMs as GH had usually done. Though I still have issues resolving the whole Flight of Fiends / Staff of Rao thing.
DLG, you and I are of like mind on this. As for the Flight of Fiends, I think it was a 'convenient' explanation to rid the Flanaess of powerful planar denizens to restore some type of balance that was lost during the Greyhawk Wars. From my perspective, the multitude of fiends stalking Oerth became almost ridiculous and had the reek of Forgotten Realms about it. I didn't mind a swarm of fiends for a short duration swarming the Flanaess to assist Iuz (why others didn't do this is beyond my comprehension...surely Iuz and his Boneheart aren't the only ones capable of summoning forth otherworldly denizens!), but a prolonged "occupation" of fiends was just too much for my sensibilities to accept blindly. I think it was an overbalancing mistake not to have all but the most powerful fiends return back to the Abyss. Maybe some justification was offered in some sourceguide, but I don't remember it offhand (need to reread both Iuz the Evil and perhaps The City of Skulls)...
**snip** Now I would of had Iuz forces originally ally with the Bandit Kingdoms having them expand into the Horned society and the Shield Lands. This way the horned society would still fold. Iuz then quickly overcomes the Bandit lands as they are spread to thin to combat Iuz treachery. With converted former members of the horned society Iuz takes down the Shield Lands which refuse to join sides with Furyondy much in the same way it originally happened.
I really like this, although I went another way. Instead of attacking the Bandit Kingdoms and Horned Society, Iuz brokers an alliance between the three of them, allowing them to consolidate their hold on the Shield Lands and organize an attack on Furyondy on two fronts. Eventually, he will probably screw over the Hierarchs (maybe by allying with Redhand and Reyhu, splitting the Shield Lands with them a la Poland with Stalin and Hitler) although I don't see him doing that until he's consolidated his gains in Furyondy.
Argon wrote:
The barbarians attacked who ever Vatun (Iuz) tells them too. One of the major members of the Horned Society actually finds the final sword in the Five shall be one saga. The Scarlet Brotherhood secretly attains the weapons and has their influence in the barbarian lands spread. The five are reunited and Vatun is freed beating Iuz in combat though being returned to the outer planes as his home plane is not Oerth. This begins the end of the Wars.
The Soul husks are collected and the Boneheart is looking for children born from a god so they can re-invoke the essence of their lord Iuz in this individual.
Just some ideas I am always thinking of other ways to do things. Whether or not I like what an author has written.
Great thread. I think i am missing some key elements to the greyhawk timeline. I have living living greyhawk gazeteer. greyhawk adventures(hardcover), the adventure begins, and players guide. i have downloaded ivid the undying. These are all 591?
I also have the city of greyhawk boxed set. My map of greyhawk is the folder from 1980. My greyhawk map is 576. I am not sure what year the city box set is?
Great thread. I think i am missing some key elements to the greyhawk timeline. I have living living greyhawk gazeteer. greyhawk adventures(hardcover), the adventure begins, and players guide. i have downloaded ivid the undying. These are all 591?
I also have the city of greyhawk boxed set. My map of greyhawk is the folder from 1980. My greyhawk map is 576. I am not sure what year the city box set is?
what do i need to fill in the blanks?
Thanks to Rasgon i have a better idea
Here is a pretty good timeline. _________________ Agape,
**snip** Now I would of had Iuz forces originally ally with the Bandit Kingdoms having them expand into the Horned society and the Shield Lands.
I really like this, although I went another way. *Snip* (maybe by allying with Redhand and Reyhu, splitting the Shield Lands with them a la Poland with Stalin and Hitler) although I don't see him doing that until he's consolidated his gains in Furyondy.
Like you smillan_31, I went the other way... only having Iuz's 1/2 sister Drelnza brokering the "arrangement" in the Shieldlands. (she isn't dead... yet... IMC) of course her agenda is not her brothers. But from her perspective, even he can "serve her purpose".
**snip** Now I would of had Iuz forces originally ally with the Bandit Kingdoms having them expand into the Horned society and the Shield Lands.
I really like this, although I went another way. *Snip* (maybe by allying with Redhand and Reyhu, splitting the Shield Lands with them a la Poland with Stalin and Hitler) although I don't see him doing that until he's consolidated his gains in Furyondy.
Like you smillan_31, I went the other way... only having Iuz's 1/2 sister Drelnza brokering the "arrangement" in the Shieldlands. (she isn't dead... yet... IMC) of course her agenda is not her brothers. But from her perspective, even he can "serve her purpose".
I love this! Sexy vampire princess of the former Shield Lands!
According to a (non-canon?) source (methinks it was in an Oerth Journal article), isn't she the product of both Iggwilv and Lerrek (once priest of Erythnul, now LICH)?
According to a (non-canon?) source (methinks it was in an Oerth Journal article), isn't she the product of both Iggwilv and Lerrek (once priest of Erythnul, now LICH)?
That's from Oerth Journal #13. It's an interesting connection to me because I was going to make Lerrek the author of an Erythnulite religious text concerning vampires.
I'd suggested elsewhere that Drelzna was Zagig's daughter, dating back from the period when Iggwilv was Zagig's apprentice.
I'd suggested elsewhere that Drelzna was Zagig's daughter, dating back from the period when Iggwilv was Zagig's apprentice.
I really love this idea, but isn't the dating off from the presumed period of time Drelnza could have been born in that we have from DRG # 336? What about Tsojcanth? Although since she's not a vampiric quarter-fiend or whatever in DNG # 151, probably not.
I really love this idea, but isn't the dating off from the presumed period of time Drelnza could have been born in that we have from DRG # 336?
Uh, yes, actually. Dragon #336 has Drelnza born during Iggwilv's time as ruler of Perrenland, so between 481 and 491 CY, while her time with Zagig was "about two centuries ago." So if you accept that, she probably isn't Zagig's daughter, at least not from her time as his apprentice. He would have had to come for a special visit. As a vampire, though, she could of course be much older.
Oerth Journal #13 had Drelnza born in 453 CY, so that timeline would have to revised as well if you wanted to preserve the Dragon #336 dates. Lerrek would have to still be involved with Iggwilv, and not yet a lich, during her time with Graz'zt rather than being replaced by Graz'zt.
Others have suggested that Drelnza's father was a Perrenlandish noble. I suppose she could have had a whole harem of male concubines during her time as queen, demanding hostages from all the land's noble families in order to ensure their obedience. The father could be any of them.
Others have suggested that Drelnza's father was a Perrenlandish noble. I suppose she could have had a whole harem of male concubines during her time as queen, demanding hostages from all the land's noble families in order to ensure their obedience. The father could be any of them.
"others"? is this line of thought around the fact that the Perrinlanders at the time practiced a matrilineal type of society? Are there references to these "other" sources?
I'd be very interested in the background details around this..... as I have a subplot around our lady vampire
The Greytalk list, I think, had a history of Iggwilv that had her married to a Perrenlandish noble at on point, before she summoned Graz'zt. I couldn't find a copy on my hard drive.
The idea that she was once romantically involved with a lich comes from WG7 of all places.
The Greytalk list, I think, had a history of Iggwilv that had her married to a Perrenlandish noble at on point, before she summoned Graz'zt. I couldn't find a copy on my hard drive.
The idea that she was once romantically involved with a lich comes from WG7 of all places.
Personally I find the habit of continually linking named characters to other named characters rather...confining. I'd prefer the Perrenlander theory. I think having her father be a nobody, more or less, reinforces Iggwilv as an opportunist (the Mystique character type of D&D, to make an X-Men reference) and pushes Drelnza towards Iuz and Iggwilv out of necessity rather than desire.
Drelnza as a Bandit Lands ruler has merit.
My campaigns usually portray society & civilization under assault, so I'd crank up the evil a bit.
Also make the Scarlet Brotherhood more subtle. Keep the Hold of the Sea Princes as an LE realm in the southwest. Make the giant issues less defined and more far-reaching -- giants can travel faster than humans. keep the Hierarchs around, possibly making Nyrond into a point of conflict between them and the GK.
The Greytalk list, I think, had a history of Iggwilv that had her married to a Perrenlandish noble at on point, before she summoned Graz'zt. I couldn't find a copy on my hard drive.
The idea that she was once romantically involved with a lich comes from WG7 of all places.
Personally I find the habit of continually linking named characters to other named characters rather...confining. I'd prefer the Perrenlander theory. I think having her father be a nobody, more or less, reinforces Iggwilv as an opportunist
I concur with that assessment as well , Not all of us have Cherokee princesses, dukes, or kings in their lineage.... some do have farmers and horse thieves.
Nellisir wrote:
and pushes Drelnza towards Iuz and Iggwilv out of necessity rather than desire.
I agree, though I see her viewing that arrangement as impermanent. IMC she is an opportunist (perhaps a trait inherited from her maternal lineage as you noted above?? ). She, a power broker that has her own agenda, has to be subtle and covert for fear of her brother. All the while, she makes her own plans manipulating her brother where she can.
I'd like to add that I too really liked the GH Wars. I agree with lanthorn, for the exact same reasons. Hah, knew I wasn't the only Empire Strikes Back fan out here! Yes, evil kicked serious butt, and that's great. Good is pushed back everywhere, and the neutral forces of the world must take an active hand. Let's not forget them!
Breaking things down, I would say I liked most of it. I thought the barbarians starting things was cool, but would rather have not had them use the whole Vatun ruse thing. Come on, they're barbarians. They really don't need a reason, and making Iuz behind it in such a complex fashion is too much.
Iuz's ascendency is great, and quite scary. I am a bit ambivalent about the Horned Society, but the way the Shield Lands and Bandit Kingdoms were handled is great. Shield Lands becomes kind of a parable in itself, reminiscent of WWII France perhaps? The Bandit Kingdoms though, that is the coolest. The fractious land becomes like an Afghanistan for Iuz, and former bandits lead the resistance, from the barren inhospitable Riftcanyon. How cool is that!
Great Kingdom breakup is excellent. In fact, I haven't hardly used it, because it is so complex a situation. I've never felt adequately prepared to run a campaign there. I spend most of my campaign time around Verbobonc, Wild Coast, GH, Bandit Kingdoms. Still, it was simply awesome.
I hated the Pomarj being SB stuff, and had my own ideas about Turrosh Mak, as I think people know. IMC he was simply a more intelligent type who is trying to raise humanoids to a higher level of civilization. I based a lot of stuff on middle-eastern slave army paradigms, esp Mamluks. I also had him assist in the destruction of the Slavelords, not be one. IMC the party rescued him and they brought the Slavers down together. It sets up a nice situation where the indirect result of their actions becomes this Pomarj humanoid empire. I can't wait to get to that point and see their reactions.
Rest of the SB stuff is just ok, IMHO. I will probably do it very differently. I like the ideas that people here have mentioned regarding keeping them more in the shadows. We'll have to see.
Finally, the Giants stuff was cool too, especially in how it relates to the old Classics campaigns GDQ superseries. Nicely done.
I agree with lanthorn, for the exact same reasons. Hah, knew I wasn't the only Empire Strikes Back fan out here! Yes, evil kicked serious butt, and that's great. Good is pushed back everywhere, and the neutral forces of the world must take an active hand. Let's not forget them!
Excellent! Yeah, I just got tired of the good guys always winning at the end of the day. The Greyhawk Wars truly upset that stereotype by perhaps going a bit overboard. For instance, all those fiends stalking the Prime Material. That got a bit much, I think, but having Iuz slapping the forces of Good around a bit before he even got dealt his first real setback was...refreshing.
I still think it would've been great if an Evil Power (Nerull, primarily, after what happened with the Hierarchs, but I'd even be happy if his own father, Grazz't, did something to undercut him) decided to cut the Old One down to size, though, rather than the Good Guys well after the Greyhawk Wars with the Great Northern Crusade and Holy Crook of Rao's appearance.
Overall, though, Ragnar and I are of like mind, it seems. Ragnar, you should be worried! And perhaps get a good "shrink".
I don't mind the Carl Sargent material. I don't see anything that specifically annoys me in FtA that I would think to myself "yeah, that's something I need to change", when it comes to changes to the setting.
The thing I would change is the notion that all of the changes were somehow tied together. I wouldn't have a "Greyhawk Wars". I'd have a war of Iuz vs. the Horned Society and then the Bandit Kingdoms. I'd have a war of the Great Kingdom vs. the Iron League and Nyrond/Almor. I'd have the Scarlet Brotherhood making their big play for control of the lands around the Azure Sea and beyond. I'd have all those things and all the other things as well, but I'd have them as individual, unconnected things that happened to occur congruently.
To my mind, the biggest mistake that was made was tying everything up in a neat little bow that was called the Greyhawk Wars, and ending everything all at once with the Peace of Greyhawk. Tons of the stuff that happened in the GH Wars and FtA boxed sets was being set up in either the gold box or EGG's articles in Dragon. Just remove the implied connections, let them all resolve individually, and it all turns out wonderfully chaotic and complex, just like the real world, where we don't necessarily wait for one war to end before the next one begins a few countries over.
FWIW, the Great Kingdom's breakup seemed reasonable, and long in the coming. The Scarlet Brotherhood's success seemed a bit over the top.
rasgon wrote:
I think it's not a coincidence that all these wars happen simultaneously... It's Greyhawk Wars, plural, not the Greyhawk War, but while the wars were separate, they were interrelated. It would have been silly for Ivid to wait until peace was declared between Iuz and his enemies (one way or another) to launch his own strike.
vs.
GreyhawkGrognard wrote:
...To my mind, the biggest mistake that was made was tying everything up in a neat little bow that was called the Greyhawk Wars, and ending everything all at once with the Peace of Greyhawk...
-Tarleton pointed out that the end was sort of WWI-ish, but the course of the Greyhawk Wars was sort of sort of like WWII. A bunch of different wars by different aggressors escalated until they started to get vaguely linked. The success of the SB reminds me for all the world of the Japanese 1941-1942.
rasgon wrote:
Should we be blaming Carl Sargent? He wasn't the one who wrote the Greyhawk Wars boxed set. He only dealt with the aftermath as best he could.
-Query: Were the "Greyhawk Wars" really "written"? Is there any chance that they had players test play the game, and then worked off the results? Some things seem a little difficult to pull off (e.g., the SB's success). Incidentally, in game terms, someone would have had to play the giants card vs. Geoff, Sterich, and the Yeomanry, presumeably Iuz.
BTW, has anyone ever tried to replicate the results using the game?
Lanthorn wrote:
...From my perspective, the multitude of fiends stalking Oerth became almost ridiculous and had the reek of Forgotten Realms about it. I didn't mind a swarm of fiends for a short duration swarming the Flanaess to assist Iuz... I think it was an overbalancing mistake not to have all but the most powerful fiends return back to the Abyss. Maybe some justification was offered in some sourceguide, but I don't remember it offhand (need to reread both Iuz the Evil and perhaps The City of Skulls)...
-The arrival of the fiends was the problem. It felt like a deus ex machina to let Iuz win.
The Crook of Rao was the ultimate goal in "Isle of the Ape", IIRC.
Nellisir wrote:
...I'd prefer the Perrenlander theory. I think having her father be a nobody, more or less, reinforces Iggwilv as an opportunist...
-Well, a noble isn't exactly a nobody...
Nellisir wrote:
...Personally I find the habit of continually linking named characters to other named characters rather...confining....
-I agree on the "six degrees of Zagyg Yragerne" thing:
jamesdglick wrote:
Argon wrote:
...Though my main reason for clearing out the entire world IMC of a drow subrace had more to do with the over abundance of drow stuff and elves for that matter in D&D in general...
-True. I'll add the Drow to my list of Iuz, Iggwilv, Vecna, and Zagyg as over-used puppet masters...
This has been a great thread. In fact, it has given me ideas for making some changes that I have wanted to make to how it all played out. _________________ Agape,
-The arrival of the fiends was the problem. It felt like a deus ex machina to let Iuz win.
The Crook of Rao was the ultimate goal in "Isle of the Ape", IIRC.
I think it was reasonable for a son of Graz'zt with his own Oerthly kingdom and coven of powerful spellcasters to be able to make bargains with Graz'zt and Pazuzu to open legions of demons into the world. It definitely made Greyhawk a more post-apocalyptic setting in the Apocalypse of John sense of the word, but I think it's a logical result of the characters and cosmology and it made for some very interesting, complex politics between Iuz, Pazuzu, Graz'zt, and Lolth (and whatever other demon rulers wanted or were forced to become involved). Basically, it meant that all the juicy Abyssal politics that Gary Gygax set up suddenly had a very real relevance to the Prime Material Plane.
The deus ex machina was the use of the Crook of Rao to insta-banish every demon at once and somehow keep them away, with no further price paid by the good guys for this tremendous display of power. It would have been far more elegant to force a team of very high-level PCs to enter the Abyss, the Crook in hand but no more potent than it was in the original module, and disrupt the flow of fiends at their source, forcing Iuz's allies to back off or divert their forces to wars and revolutions at home. The storyline that Roger E. Moore came up with to quickly reset Greyhawk back to something more like the status quo was disappointing, to my mind. A couple of NPCs accomplished something quickly and painlessly off-screen that should have been the result of an epic quest by the player characters.
Short of that, I'll simply point out that powerful artifacts carry equally powerful curses. No power is without price, and Canon Hazen and Bigby ought to have found that the price they had to pay for instantly removing all of Iuz's unholy legions from the plane may not have been worth it... not just for them personally, but for anyone. How much would that level of magic weaken Rao himself, and what kinds of concessions would he have to make to the powers of the Lower Planes in exchange for being allowed to interfere with the Material Plane that closely? There should be no quick and easy fixes.
Iuz certainly played a price for his allies; gaining them made him beholden both to his father, who certainly doesn't have his son's best interests in mind, and to his father's rival, who was equally not interested in Iuz's welfare. Playing them against each other was a very difficult tightrope for the Old One to walk, ripe for disruption on the part of the PCs.
But I very much like the idea that Iuz had access to hordes of demons. It sets him up as the world-threatening villain he should be rather than as a mortal warlord with redder skin and more body fat than most. It did change the setting considerably from relatively typical medieval fantasy to a realm facing imminent, slightly delayed Armageddon, and that might not be to everyone's taste.
Last edited by rasgon on Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
A couple of NPCs accomplished something quickly and painlessly off-screen that should have been the result of an epic quest by the player characters.
I think it was a no-win situation for TSR/the designers. Doing it as an adventure would result in complaints of railroading and that the campaign would be ruined if the PCs failed. Any further design has to assume that either the PCs won (which people would complain about) or that the adventure hasn't been played, and there are demons all over the place. (Which people would complain about.)
True. But honestly, TSR's situation isn't my problem. The thread is about "What would you do?" not "What was it practical for Roger E. Moore to do?"
Moore just wanted to get the campaign setting back on track and no longer dark and apocalyptic as quickly as possible and move on so that Greyhawk could be marketed as "back to the dungeon" rather than "holy crap demons are going to eat the planet." My interests are more in the setting's verisimilitude, and what makes for a cool campaign.
-Query: Were the "Greyhawk Wars" really "written"? Is there any chance that they had players test play the game, and then worked off the results? Some things seem a little difficult to pull off (e.g., the SB's success). Incidentally, in game terms, someone would have had to play the giants card vs. Geoff, Sterich, and the Yeomanry, presumeably Iuz.
BTW, has anyone ever tried to replicate the results using the game?
I doubt they left the future of their campaign setting to random die rolls. From the Ashes was a dark setting because they wanted it to be a dark setting (I think this was an idea originally suggested by Jeff Grubb), not because a game they played in the TSR office happened to end up that way. They let all the bad guys score substantial victories because they thought it would leave a more interesting setting than a good-dominated campaign or the status quo, while still leaving the Domain of Greyhawk as a neutral realm safe for low-level characters and some parts of the world still stable enough that not every campaign in post-FTA Greyhawk had to be about battling demons and undead nobles.
I'm also sure it's not a coincidence that aspects of the setting, like Iuz conquering the Horned Society and Graz'zt ruling three Abyssal planes, happened originally in Gary Gygax's novel Artifact of Evil.
Rasgon, you are eloquent as I have come to expect, with fine counter-arguments against the mainstream poster (myself included) not enjoying the "Fiends Stalk Oerth" unchecked sentiment.
I daresay, though, that if fiends could roam the Prime Material freely (and maybe they can), what stops Gated and Summoned fiends from not doing so thusly? This goes to a separate thread, which I fashioned, about Gating (I think it is in the 2e Forum, my "native" Plane ), and offhand I don't recall if you voiced your opinion or not.
Perhaps Iuz had some 'special' way to allow these fiends to roam, willy-nilly, across his conquered realm. If that is the case, so be it, but I don't remember it stating this as truth in the supplement, Iuz the Evil, which I actually do like.
I actually do like the tumult that the hordes of fiends that were unleashed stirred into motion, upsetting 'the Balance' as it were. I think that makes for the great, post-apocalyptic feeling you also mentioned. What I didn't like, personally, was the length of duration the fiends actually remained on the Prime Material. In my mind, they arrive, they kill, and then the return back to the Abyss, with perhaps only some to remain behind. Again, otherwise, why don't Gated fiends stay put on the Prime after their 'purpose' is fulfilled?
As for there being no price for the power of Good unleashed by the Crook of Rao...not so sure there wasn't! After all, isn't it mentioned in one of the sourceguides (The Adventure Begins comes to mind) that Canon Hazen is rarely seen after his display of Divine power? To me, that is telling.
Anyhow, just my counter to your well-written counters, and some thoughts to share for all.
The Wild Coast. I never would have (will have) had Turrosh Mak's hordes overrun the Wild Coast. Not because I don't think it would have happened, but just because I love the Wild Coast too much and think the city-states there make ideal bases for adventures. To me it was always the Wild West and why would you want to get rid of the Wild West?
IMC there never was a Turrosh Mak, but there were rumors about a powerful orc chieftain known as The Blood King, who was starting to pull all the tribes together, and was working with the Slavers.
I daresay, though, that if fiends could roam the Prime Material freely (and maybe they can), what stops Gated and Summoned fiends from not doing so thusly?
Nothing, except that the time they spend on the Material Plane is time they can't spend building power on their own planes. If they're ambitious, they may believe it is better to reign in Hell than to reign over puny mortals.
What would lead you to believe that fiends can't remain on any plane they've been physically summoned to for as long as they wish? 1st edition placed limitations on which planes planar creatures could enter under their own power, but no limits on where they could stay once they were there. The 1st edition DMG advised caution in placing lower planar creatures in an adventure (page 191), but no firm limitations on allowing them to be encountered on the mortal world.
3rd edition put a time limit on summon monster spells (which is basically an astral projection rather than the fiend's true form), but no time limit on creatures who arrive via gate. The spell allows fiends to depart after their task is complete, but doesn't require them to; in fact, if the wizard doesn't complete his end of the bargain, they'll stick around and savor their vengeance against him.
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Perhaps Iuz had some 'special' way to allow these fiends to roam, willy-nilly, across his conquered realm.
I don't think he needed a special way; the rules as written don't require one, in my interpretation. Lots of adventures have unbound fiends in the Material Plane.
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Again, otherwise, why don't Gated fiends stay put on the Prime after their 'purpose' is fulfilled?
I think they do, oftentimes, which is why gating a fiend is a terrible idea unless you know how to seal or banish it afterwards. But just as often they may decide the mortal world is too cold or boring to remain in once their immediate thirst for blood and vengeance has been slaked... assuming they even have a way back.
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As for there being no price for the power of Good unleashed by the Crook of Rao...not so sure there wasn't! After all, isn't it mentioned in one of the sourceguides (The Adventure Begins comes to mind) that Canon Hazen is rarely seen after his display of Divine power? To me, that is telling.
As I said above, I don't think Hazen losing his life is anything close to a sufficient price for power of that magnitude. If Rao can banish every demon in Iuz's employ simultaneously, what does he have to allow Incabulos to do in return? How much of his own power did Rao have to sacrifice, and how long will it take him to recover? I think there are serious questions involving the gods themselves, and in comparison the fate of one priest is nothing. You don't get power like that by sacrificing one mortal; the whole cosmos has been thrown out of balance (if only slightly), and that price has to be paid. "Sacrifice your own life and the lives of thousands will be saved" is too easy a choice. "Sacrifice your own life and victory over Iuz in this conflict will be assured... but Incabulos will send plagues that will kill countless innocents, angels will be equally unable to reach the mortal world, and I, Rao, will be unable to intercede again for a century" is harder.
What would lead you to believe that fiends can't remain on any plane they've been physically summoned to for as long as they wish?
Not sure if it was something I read, or merely my own supposition. Again, I need to review Iuz the Evil for justification for the hordes of fiends swarming the Flanaess, but I know it has something to do with making certain pacts with Demon Lords (and Ladies) as you and others have noted.
I can see why you think the life of one high priest is a trifling matter compared to banishing the legions of tanar'ri that Canon Hazen performed with the Crook (and perhaps the aid of others). I am not sure that such an act would actually weaken the likes of an actual Greater Power such as Rao, however. Yet I can see how it would either kill Hazen, permanently incapacitate him, or even utterly drain the Crook of all Divine magic (I vote for that).
There is a balance of power between the Powers...at least in what they are 'allowed' to do on Oerth directly. That has been mentioned in the sourceguides themselves. The only logical reason I can offer why Rao was 'permitted' to (indirectly) involve himself in banishing the demons unleashed on Oerth is due to the fact that he never sent an Avatar to perform the action Himself, but relied on his priests (mortal agents) to do so instead. Thusly, I have the personal opinion, and perhaps one that you do not share, that the 'balance' was not disrupted by His actions at all. If anything, Iuz was the one to "bend/break the rules", although he is but a Demi-Power, and partly of mortal flesh and blood, and not a true "Power" by definition, so perhaps the 'rules' don't apply to him whatsoever. ??? Again, this is merely my own rationale for what happened, and why.
Honestly, I thought it was perplexing, to say the least, why Rao got so involved instead of St. Cuthbert, the chief rival of Iuz. However, citing the 'balance of power' pact among the Divine Powers, perhaps St Cuthbert was not 'permitted' b/c Iuz didn't technically violate the letter of the law in the first place (or did He?). Or perhaps Rao decided to use his Crook instead via mortal intermediaries to perform the task instead. Who only knows but the Gods themselves!
If I were Carl Sargent I would've quit TSR and wrote the world's best selling fantasy novels. _________________ Kneel before me, or you shall be KNELT!
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). She, a power broker that has her own agenda, has to be subtle and covert for fear of her brother. All the while, she makes her own plans manipulating her brother where she can.
