So ... I can't beleive that this conversation began about a year ago, but, it's massively long at eight pages, and I didn't want anyone to miss out on it just because they hadn't seen "Part I".
So ... Not too terribly long ago, we were discussing the areas of Western Oerik, and how we found out that the areas that were named on the Dragon Annual #6 didn't actually originate there, but had roots back to the original author, whom Gygax had worked with and personally said that he intended to include his map on Oerth.
That author, Francis Marcela Friodeval, went on to write a series of graphic novels that was set in that world (Black Moon Chronicles). Though in his published version, those same regions were set in an different Alternate Earth other than Oerth.
Nevertheless, there's been a few incarnations now of video games that are based on that same setting (Blackmoon Chronicles, Empire of Lhynn, et al). So ... for those devotees of Western Oerik, today I took some screenshots while playing the newest version of the MMO of the Blackmoon Chronicles. I'm currently centered around the capitol of the Kingdom of Justice, a nation of Templar-paladins and devout priests.
One of the interesting things is that the map has had a great amount of detail added to it since the IP was owned by the previous company that began the MMO. Also, a couple of the cities seem to have been moved ever so slightly further toward the coast. i'm currently trying to find canon material from the original comics to acertain their local geography. the only thing is that they are originally in French, and so, there's a lot of Google Translate being typed.
At any rate: here's the maps that I thought you might find interesting; the first is of the city of Sysigie itself, then follows a clipping (screenshot) of the most recent map, and then previous version of it.
[Edit: This post was updated (more than once over multiple years) to include fixed links to the map images. In that time, complete maps have been obtained, and no longer are a screenshot, but, rather a full map from the game.]
I've been talking to people for a few years about raiding content from the World of Warcraft MMO, for use with tabletop Warcraft games. I think that I might need to download Black Moon Chronicles - Winds of War, to see how easy it is to visit different locations in the world and extract maps.
I've not seen a wiki for this MMO yet. Have you?
Icarus wrote:
At any rate: here's the maps that I thought you might find interesting; the first is of the city of Sysigie itself, then follows a clipping (screenshot) of the most recent map, and then previous version of it.
These three pictures are confusing, as they don't seem like they work with each other. You certainly can't have a city far inland and also out on an island in the sea.
I know the third picture. What are the other two pictures from? Did you get them from the earlier MMO and the current MMO?
I've got a feeling that I'll have to play the game to understand this. <sigh> _________________ David 'Big Mac' Shepheard<br />My Greyhawk links: http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9355<br />(If I am not here, you can find me at the Greyhawk or Chainmail forums at The Piazza.)<br />
Personally, I'd assume artistic license and say that Sysigie is a port city on the coast, but not literally in the ocean. It doesn't make much sense for a major city to be as far inland as the bottom map suggests, even if it's "holy."
I mean, granted, Mecca isn't on the coast; it's based around an oasis, and Sysigie could be similar, based around some extremely sacred spring or other site, but with the map above it in mind, I think a coastal location is more likely.
I might need ... to see how easy it is to visit different locations in the world and extract maps.
It wouldn't be that difficult, really. I'm planning on Photoshopping a full map together as I travel. The only problem is that one can't see the entire map, only a portion as you move around. But, soon enough, I'll have one. That was my intent when I took this first screenshot. [/quote]
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I've not seen a wiki for this MMO yet. Have you?
I have not, in fact. I wish there were one! I think that I might mention it in the Development forums ... but, I think that the 6 guys at Bruma (the co. that produces BMC) are probably a bit busy. :)
bigmac wrote:
These three pictures are confusing, as they don't seem like they work with each other. You certainly can't have a city far inland and also out on an island in the sea. ... What are the other two pictures from? Did you get them from the earlier MMO and the current MMO?
Rasgon wrote:
Personally, I'd assume artistic license and say that Sysigie is a port city on the coast, but not literally in the ocean. It doesn't make much sense for a major city to be as far inland as the bottom map suggests, even if it's "holy." ... I mean, granted, Mecca isn't on the coast; it's based around an oasis, and Sysigie could be similar, based around some extremely sacred spring or other site, but with the map above it in mind, I think a coastal location is more likely.
Right you are, Rasgon.
Bigmac ... the first two maps are from screenshots of the current BMC - Winds of War MMO. One is the standard player-map of the region, and the other is an item that the player can "buy" with gold in-game, and it's a map of the city of Sysigie.
Sysigie is certainly a port town. There's actually a harbor district in the city. But, the second (more comicbook-looking) map is grossly not to scale and is more representational and thematic, more than anything. If you look at the 3rd map, there's a river mouth west of Sysigie and norhtwest Altenburg. In the second map, that river mouth looks more like a massive bay than anything. But, it is undoubtedly a river that flows toward those mountains. It's not for showing mileage, or distance, it's more about locating landmarks. Sysigie is definitely not out in the middle of the ocean, it's directly on the coast. I really don't know why the "old" (Viscom) map shows Sysigie so far inland. Because it's definitely not that way in canon. _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
So ... after a bit of forum discussion with one of the developers, I garnered two complete versions of the maps above. The interesting thing, though, is that these haven't apparently changed since the Vircom MMO to the new Bruma MMO. I'm thinking that the third map above must have been from the earlier non-MMO computer game. ... still awaiting confirmation on that, though.
[Edit: Well ... I've had conversations with a couple of the current Developers, and a couple of players of the MMO that've been around for a while, and no one seems to know where that map came from. They said it can't really be from the BMC PC game, because it says "Winds of War" on it ... which is the name of the BMC MMO game not the PC one. They said that Vircom did a lot of marketing at the time, but no one has recognized it yet, so, Only time will tell whether we'll find it's source! Wow. That's kind of surprising. ]
On the borders of the empire is the principality of Sysigie. The latter is named after the astronomical phenomenon that is its origin. Indeed, the “basin” which constitutes this territory comes from the fall from an enormous meteorite caused by a syzygy (or syzygia) or alignment from celestial bodies. Led by Prince Parsifal, Commander of the Order of the Knights of Justice, this land bathed by a sea of clouds is a place of peace and of harmony. In the shelter of strong walls of granite, has developed a secular order of pure-hearted knights. These obedient servants of the Lord are composed mainly of monks, warriors, and ordained priests. This vast kingdom is bordered by high, impassible mountains. Its only access is a gorge a few hundred meters wide. There, a huge fortress wall was raised by his government in order to protect access. The gates of brass, also called gates of Dawn, are controlled by a powerful machine.
Well, Rasgon ... that's a perfectly valid question. Hm.
Well ... I'm not entirely certain. Though on the 3rd map above (the one from an aerial perspective, rather than a more orthographic one) there's certainly mountains, but Sysigie itself is inland. In the "current" version, there's not any.
Frankly, in looking back through my notes, I'm not certain where Blue bomber got that. I'm sure he has a source for it somewhere, and I found in my notes where he has mentioned it ... but, I can't figure out where the mountains are in canon, or where the Gates of Dawn are. I was thinking that they were near Lhynn (the capitol), but, I may not be entirely incorrect.
He does mention the basin in his post, and it is clear that Sysigie does sit in a basin in canon ... though that's not so clear in the MMO version. [Edit: Image link restructured after file-sharing site change]
Maybe we can get ahold of Blue Bomber and ask him? I don't know how to personally contact him, though. ... while we're at it, and I'm thinking about it, I am not entirely certain which issue of the comics mention that the basin is actually made by a meteorite, either. There's plenty of causes for a basin of a terrestrial nature. And the name of the city could refer to other things, not just planetary alignment. It could refer to the philosphical sysygy which means a close union (God and man?). Unless my less than dilligent translation efforts speed up and I find the references, or Blue bomber tells us himself, or the my questions in the BMC forums are answered, we may not find out immediately. _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
Last edited by Icarus on Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:46 am; edited 1 time in total
So ... I sort of have to amend what I said before ... while the BMC stuff on the Dragon Annual maps don't really cross out too much canon stuff ... this one certainly does.
Yeah, that last image would certainly require a lot of creative rework on my own Beyond the Flanaess maps. Still, might be worth looking into.
Yeah, that last image would certainly require a lot of creative rework on my own Beyond the Flanaess maps. Still, might be worth looking into.
You know, honestly, GG ... I wish that I had been on this kick when you were doing those a few months ago. I really think that the two can still be merged, because the settings aren't mutually exclusive ... but, I still don't know how I'd handle the Thalos/Sysigie area.
On a note about those mountains, I got two of the developers to talk about it, and they say that they are actually there in-game in the area of Lynn as shown in the comic maps, it's just that the thematic map didn't apparently have room for them, and aren't shown because they're smaller than the others. But when one goes to the area, the local maps show them and reflect the actual geography. ... that still doesn't clear up the Sysigie area for me, because they're certainly not there that far North, but, I still don't know where Blue bomber got that, either. _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
Well I'm hardly any sort of expert, but those maps from the video games seem to contradict the actual maps and drawn background terrain in the comics. Personally, if I were to make a GH map, I'd stick with the comics and just ignore the video game ones.
Hey there, Blue Bomber!! Great to see you on the thread!
Well, I will say this, you may not consider yourself an "expert", but, you are certainly well-informed on the topic.
Remember, in discussing the maps from the MMO, it's been discovered that the "world map" (despite being only a tiny portion of the world) are thematic in nature, and they're not intended to be geographically accurate. They're essentially pictorial in nature, and while informative, they're mostly just for having an idea of things relative to each other, and the "feel" of the regions. Though I have not yet seen them first hand, I am told that the local maps are geographically accurate. That being said, I think that it it is considered by some to be a disservice, since very few gaming maps are of such a decorative nature as a thematic map. Certainly, the mountains could not be anything even remorely resembling their depictions on the MMO map. They'd be taller than Texas is wide.
Curious, though ... we were wondering if you knew from where the information comes for some of the stuff that was in the fan-created stuff that you quoted and/or translated. For example, I'm having a bit of difficulty finding images or direct statement in the comicbooks that there are "high, impassible mountains" surrounding Sysigie, or that it's named for, or caused by, an atsrological syzygy. It has taken me *far* too long to do translations, and I haven't found anything in canon yet. I'm certain that the French fan who wrote the stuff that you posted was fairly knowledgable, but, it's difficult when one doesn't know the source.
Glad to have you here on this thread! Looking forward to drumming up the topic with you again!
I wish I had more to add at this time, as I have too much on my plate at the moment. Though I will pop in from time to time to see how this thread progresses.
Given just the first post and the three maps, and barely reading the rest of this thread, I'd say that the ocean has rdropped (or the land risen) between the 2nd and 3rd post. Personally I like the second map; the idea of Sysig (or whatever) as a diked city very nearly underwater is pretty cool, and it would give Western Oerik it's own kind of cataclysm to deal with. Then again, have the ocean drop would expose lots of new land and leave formerly port cities high and dry, which is an awesome recipe for ruins. Actually, I like that idea better.
Well ... it's been said already, but, I want to reiterate:
Black Moon Chronicles: Winds of War is a an Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. They can't exactly make a realistic-scale map. Players have to be able to walk across a particular zone within a few minutes. So, what is depicted as a "lightly wooded peninsula" is actually about 40' wide and has two trees on it. It's a matter of having a map be a "theme" of the actual world, it must -by nature- be non-representational. Every video game is the same way. One can't travel over an entire ocean in a 15 second load screen, nor can they ride across a continent in 15 minutes. In a tabletop RPG, we do the same thing of glossing over travel, but, we can "say" that we traveled 100 miles. Video games don't have that luxury. And therefore, the maps of that realm aren't gong to be quite the same.
Well, here it is, years and years later, and I'm still on this topic.
It's still a favorite of mine, and still interesting to me, after all these years.
…
But, more interesting, is that I've since found answers to some of the questions posed, and seems I never realized I needed to update this thread! A while back, I imported some of the side-stories of the Black Moon Chronicles, the "Secrets" (Arcana) series. One of them has a great deal to do with the founding of Syzygie.
So … here's an update:
So, first thing: technically Syzygie isn't a city. It's a nation. The capitol city of that nation to which we have been referring is actually called "Aurora". A minor point, to be sure, but, a point nevertheless. I'll continue calling it Syzygie, though, for sake of continuity (unless we have to specifically refer to the capitol separately later).
Early in this thread, there was some conversation about whether Syzygie was an island on the coast, inland, or in a basin.
Well, as it turns out, it's all four (coastal, inland, island, basin).
So, Syzygie is in a basin which was caused by a meteor-strike presumably, which has a lake at it's center, and is near the coast.
I made a scan of the page that relates to this topic. It's definitely a high-rez scan, of which there's a thumbnail below. But, the details are important, as there's geographical details that could be missed. It's particularly applicable to what we're talking about, because it shows large-area, local, and city-sized maps. Some of the more interesting places are the Darkwood, Dark Swamp (or Marsh), Haunted Ruins, Forest of the Fallen (Decaying?) Troll, Barbarians, Giants, Trolls, and Orcs.
I'm not entirely sure I ever recall seeing a "navy", per se, but, there is certainly a harbor.
And the map at the top of this thread which shows the capitol city of Syzygie from the BMC MMO game isn't inaccurate, at all, when compared to other images of Syzygie/Aurora in the books! It's just that it only highlights the areas that are playable in-game. (Which, frankly, is a relief.) I'll add a small version of another in-game map, to depict that, at the bottom.
It's actually shown in the books as everything from a tiny island village in the beginnings, to a town, then city, then a fortified walled city resplendent with a cathedral and castle.
Eventually, the island is expanded a little, even. The periphery is filled in to make room for expanding the city. And there are giants who are made allies, who help with the quarrying of stone and building of the city.
Anyhow … hope y'all find it interesting. Neat stuff.
While I've heard of The Black Moon Chronicles and it's placement on Oerth, admittedly all I know about Western Oerik is the "Sundered Empire" lore from the 3e-era of Chainmail…
…which reminds me I had wanted to gather the lore from the sourcebook and the DRAGON Magazine articles to smash together into a single document akin to the LIVING GREYHAWK™ Gazetteer.
While I've heard of The Black Moon Chronicles and it's placement on Oerth, admittedly all I know about Western Oerik is the "Sundered Empire" lore from the 3e-era of Chainmail…
Well, there's nothing wrong with that!
We're definitely talking about some pretty obscure apocrypha, here.
They're French graphic novels published by the fella that used to live and wrok with Gary Gygax upon whose games the names in ancient Western Oerik were named.
The nations were depicted as being contemporary with the Suel and Baklunish nations, but, the author (Francois Marcella Froideval) continued writing when he returned to France to become one of the progenitors of the French RPG scene.
At any rate, I like using his stuff to fill in the gaps in what we don't know about Western Oerik. But, it's still apocrypha, at best.
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…which reminds me I had wanted to gather the lore from the sourcebook and the DRAGON Magazine articles to smash together into a single document akin to the LIVING GREYHAWK™ Gazetteer.
Nothing wrong with that, either! (Just be careful not distributing a document like that, you know, IP and all.)
I searched for "port city north-western France" and found a page with ports in France. Brest, France seems like a good way to place Aurora, Syzygie.
I still think that the French comic uses a scaled up map of France. The Pyrenees mountains seem hacked off at the border and become those Draakh Peaks at the coast.
I searched for "port city north-western France" and found a page with ports in France. Brest, France seems like a good way to place Aurora, Syzygie.
Well, I personally don't think I will go so far as to plunk down my two coppers about where, specifically, it should be … but, I will say: Brest seems a similar location, if one were to use IRL maps. Although, the map above from the comics has a westward-facing coast in the top panel of the page. For whatever that's worth. It could theoretically be the side of a southward -facing bay, for all I know.
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I still think that the French comic uses a scaled up map of France. The Pyrenees mountains seem hacked off at the border and become those Draakh Peaks at the coast.
Um, yeah. I think if anyone disagreed with that, they'd pretty much be just trolling, or something. There's no question of it.
In fact, in one of the early issues of the Arcana spinoffs, there's a global-level panel that shows the planet of the BMC is literally an alternate Oerth. … er, um, no, alternate Earth, sorry.
I rather like Icarus' suggestion that the moon hits, but Oerth survives!
Seems like something that could potentially affect Oerth large scale like that would draw in other Powers to mess with the results, which could in turn potentially reduce it from planet shattering to 'merely' twin cataclysms level?
That could really make things interesting. Especially if the moon does in fact hit and deposits a large amount of matter on the planet.
If one were to shift the timeframe a lot, then that addition of mass could account for why Oerth shifted on it's axis so drastically way back when! The survivors (assuming there are some) retain the legends and lore and names and deposit them (pun intended) onto the new areas completely separate from the original history?
Or, instead of shifting the timelines, the moon itself could be time shifted back for that hit... which would allow for some survivors but not many, especially if the moon did manage to hit the atmosphere and flame most stuff off the map prior to the time shift... save for said few survivors.
Just some random relatively uninformed brainstorming thoughts.
Icarus wrote:
Well, here it is, years and years later, and I'm still on this topic.
It's still a favorite of mine, and still interesting to me, after all these years.
…
Oh, trust me. I know exactly what it is like to be on a topic for years and years and to never give up on it... I hope there are no hard feelings regarding my topic? _________________ Does the walker choose the path, or does the path choose the walker?
Well, here it is, years and years later, and I'm still on this topic.
It's still a favorite of mine, and still interesting to me, after all these years.
…
Oh, trust me. I know exactly what it is like to be on a topic for years and years and to never give up on it... I hope there are no hard feelings regarding my topic?
No worries about that, at all.
Your topic (psionics) is a great one - and there's nothing wrong, at all, with being enthusiastic about wanting to include as much of it in your game as you want!
nijineko wrote:
I rather like Icarus' suggestion that the moon hits, but Oerth survives!
Are you talking about the suggestions I made (here) in the previous part of the thread on this topic?
nijineko wrote:
... a lot of really cool stuff about lunar impact and shifting timelines
Those are interesting propositions!
One of the things I found long after this thread was current was that there's an indication of when the Dragon Annual #1 map is actually set. So, there's not any other maps that label the Baklunish and Suel Empires as such, rather than calling them the "Sea of Dust" and the "Dry Steppes"
That seems to me to indicate that it's contemporary to those nations when they were active.
That'd mean that the Black Moon Chronicles were in the ancient past, and the Sundered Empire setting was contemporary. It would certainly explain all of the overlaps, and make absolutely nothing conflict. They would be nations as old as Sulm or Caerdiralor or whatever, and it wouldn't matter if Altenberg, for example, were now in what is known as Thalos ... or simply was ruined and didn't exist anymore, at all. _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
Well, here it is, years and years later, and I'm still on this topic.
It's still a favorite of mine, and still interesting to me, after all these years.
…
Oh, trust me. I know exactly what it is like to be on a topic for years and years and to never give up on it... I hope there are no hard feelings regarding my topic?
No worries about that, at all.
Your topic (psionics) is a great one - and there's nothing wrong, at all, with being enthusiastic about wanting to include as much of it in your game as you want!
I actually was referencing that other topic I go on and on about, actually. (Psionics is more of a lifestyle for me by this point, rather than a mere "topic". lol.) Ever since WotC put up the Other Worlds page on their site way back when 3e first came out, I've wanted Greyhawk to get an Official Site License... since as you pointed out previously, while the all the general 3.x books are "generically set in Greyhawk" they didn't really actually produce much that is "Greyhawk" specifically, which kinda puts the general books in an awkward place insofar as pinning them to a map and/or timeline of Oerth goes. As you also pointed out, the OSL thing hasn't been a thing for years and years... and (even I admit) most likely will never be a thing again, despite them permitting the old Other World sites to malinger on unaddressed and unacknowledged. However, it's not in my nature to give up until it's solidly proven by something or someone authoritative enough to make it stick. So, hopefully, no hard feelings about that whole misunderstanding either.
Icarus wrote:
nijineko wrote:
I rather like Icarus' suggestion that the moon hits, but Oerth survives!
Are you talking about the suggestions I made (here) in the previous part of the thread on this topic?
I believe so, I was reading through it all (lots to read) and thought it very interesting!
Icarus wrote:
nijineko wrote:
... a lot of really cool stuff about lunar impact and shifting timelines
Those are interesting propositions!
One of the things I found long after this thread was current was that there's an indication of when the Dragon Annual #1 map is actually set. So, there's not any other maps that label the Baklunish and Suel Empires as such, rather than calling them the "Sea of Dust" and the "Dry Steppes"
That seems to me to indicate that it's contemporary to those nations when they were active.
That'd mean that the Black Moon Chronicles were in the ancient past, and the Sundered Empire setting was contemporary. It would certainly explain all of the overlaps, and make absolutely nothing conflict. They would be nations as old as Sulm or Caerdiralor or whatever, and it wouldn't matter if Altenberg, for example, were now in what is known as Thalos ... or simply was ruined and didn't exist anymore, at all.
Oh, when was the DA#1 map set?
And regarding the lunar strike... that would imply that Oerth had three moons at one point... and that possibly Sardior's castle might be taking up the gravitational point that the previous moon occupied perhaps...?
OR...
...that the moon fractured due to gravitational stresses, and was sent back in time in pieces, which could allow for the mass extinction mentioned in the Scrying Ancient Races article with subsequent planetary shift AND the mass-wipe of the previous Black Moon civilizations. If ole' M-named Egyptian-themed wizard opened a gate to save some... it could have been warped through time by the gravitational stresses upon Oerth's ley lines such that it was sufficiently after the lunar-piece impact aftermath cleared up such that they could reestablish their presence and thus bequeath the names and histories and fragments (pun intended) of their former civilization upon a more modern Oerth.
...AND
For that matter some of it could have been sent forward... explaining the sudden loss of life on Oerth in the future article as well. Perhaps the cost of the offsetting timeslip magic was pulled from future Oerth itself thus draining it dry and causing the end of the Age of Magic and the eventual complete extinction of seemingly everything as mentioned in Boccob's description?
This whole timeslip thing seems like the sort of thing that Istus would have to be involved with, given the nature and description of that Spindle of hers. The timeslip idea actually comes from my campaign setting, as I have Istus trying to find a timeline wherein Oerth does not perish, thus explaining in-game all the different editions contradictory claims about history and so forth. Infinite Worlds Greyhawk #357 was her most recent attempt. _________________ Does the walker choose the path, or does the path choose the walker?
One of the things I found long after this thread was current was that there's an indication of when the Dragon Annual #1 map is actually set. ... there's not any other maps that label the Baklunish and Suel Empires as such, rather than calling them the "Sea of Dust" and the "Dry Steppes"
That seems to me to indicate that it's contemporary to those nations when they were active.
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Wow. That's kind of surprising. 
]
I really think that the two can still be merged, because the settings aren't mutually exclusive ... but, I still don't know how I'd handle the Thalos/Sysigie area.
ha ha ha
