Canonfire!

Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:19 pm Temple of Elemental Evil

The party has been crawling around the dungeon for what was a couple or three days. They left the temple and Nulb area and arrived in Homlett. They are holed up in St. Cuthbert's church at the beginning of next session. As was discussed in an earlier thread they are probably gonna head to Verbobonc to do some training. They will be gone from the temple for what will probably be 10 days.

On pg.43 of the module it talks about recruiting. Meaning that agents of the temple roam near and far to bring all sorts of evil humans and humanoids into service. The river pirates of Nulb and brigands are major sources. It says that the humans/humanoids replace at the rate of 1/day. 3+ HD humanoids at 1 every 3 days. Monsters replace at one a week. Note, however, that once the leaders of a group are eliminated, neither they nor their forces can be repaired.

OK. The bumblers have taken out rooms 121-137. This includes the clerics of the Elemental Earth temple in room 137. These are the leaders of the earth cult so theoretically level one should not replenish anything. On the other hand there are still eighteen guards and 3 lvl 3 fighters left. Also left are some humanoids and a 5th level fighter leader type. They also have not entered "the earth temple" area. What do you guys think about bringing some nastys back? Any suggestions about the type? Ghouls and ghasts maybe?

I don't know why this bothers me or why i even think about it but i do... and it does. I can't just let the right hand not know that the left has been cut off. On the other hand i also would like to make some progress in the dungeon. I have never given the party any more than what was in the module. Its a party of seven characters and already they are fast approaching level 5. Are they going up to fast? The module is for levels 1-8. Are they gonna be beyond that if we manage to play to the end? Does it matter?

-McNeilk still a rookie DM

Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:13 pm

Admission: I don't own the module of which you speak BUT I do own Homlett, and I have been a player in ToEE. Also, as a veteran DM, I can only tell you that you are not alone on these questions. Even after playing this game for nearly three decades now I still have questions that plague me. Hence the infamous 'Lanthorn query.' Embarassed

At any rate, I can only offer suggestions from my perspective and style of play. I like to run modules as they are suggested but rarely leave anything 'unmodified.' I think this is what older DMs tend to do. As a younger DM, I definitely ran modules as they were written as 'Gospel.' Now I see them as strong suggestions, or guidelines (Mystic Scholar is notorious for that statement).

If you are not happy with how something is unfolding, modify it to suit your needs...or conscience. I do the same, especially with regard to things that I deem 'contrived' (which I detest). I frequently alter something, be it an encounter, or NPC, or ruling, that just doesn't settle well with me (though I will admit that I often bounce rules off my fellow DM/player, more out of continuity and respect than anything else). I am doing just that with my current campaign.

If you want a hard-fast rule, I cannot offer you one. I can only tell you what I would do in your situation, so here it goes:

Perhaps randomly roll your replacements, or choose those from a suitable encounter table from the surrounding terrain that makes sense to you. Personally, I would avoid replacing your losses with undead UNLESS you have a clerical leader that can bind them to his/her will for the Temple's benefit. Since you mentioned all the clerics are dead, I personally wouldn't add any undead reinforcements. Humanoids are fine, or something else appropriate that can be controlled by the surviving agents. Brigands and bandits, or even Rhennee from the surrounding river systems.

I also like to add plot twists and turns on most of my adventures beyond that written in modules (particularly if my players know the module already). For instance, perhaps you add some NPCs to the mix, such as a rival group of adventurers likewise bent on destroying the Temple, or even allies to help bolster your own group.

As for your characters leveling too fast, you ultimately have a large role in that. I believe there is a thread (via Nerdcav? By the way, where is that guy these days

) in the 2e (?) forum that addresses this question. Otherwise, since it is such a BIG topic, maybe you should address your level or progression concerns in that venue lest it derail the main focus of this one. Just a thought...

hope I've been helpful,

Long Time DM, Lanthorn

Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:53 pm

Remember that the various factions are all competing against one another, so if one is suddenly removed the others will likely hear about it within a day or two, if not sooner (the place is not that big). The leftover Earth guards, if they still want to be getting paid, will likely hook up with some other elemental faction, that being whoever will pay them the best or is the most powerful (in their opinion). Other creatures are constantly being attracted to the temple, just not a lot of them, so if the PCs go away for a week or two to train, re-equip, whatever, they may find that other factions may have taken over those cleared areas and installed new servants there to guard them. There may be new traps and ambush points set up too.

And the entire place will be on high alert, so PCs beware.
_________________
- Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -

Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:15 am

i was thinking along these lines cebrion. It is probably not in their best interest to leave for Verbobonc. Maybe some timely advice from Rufus to help steer them in the right direction.

I am not sure they will ever be able to leave for 10 days again? One of the things that may help alleviate this problem is that the module says if Otis finds out about the true #s of evil in the temple he informs Burne who summons powerful characters from Veluna and Verbobonc. They remain in Hommlet, but aid in training and preparing the adventurers to gain levels of experience. cost is the same but time is cut by 50%.

The party has cloaks and robes from the earth temple. After they finished in the Moathouse they got Rufus showed him the store of arms and armor so they are all well informed that something is amiss. This was the partys first real foray into the temple itself so there should be no huge changes yet.

I am gonna go this route. Gives me a chance to roleplay Rufus, Burne, Otis and Mother Screng. I will have to make up some NPCs to train them but it is still easier than trying to deal with all the changes the temple will go through if the characters leave for 10 days.

thanks for your help dungeon masters.

PS:i am fine with the level of the party. I did some reading in the 2e section and another DM had a 5th level party after the moathouse in T1. Good call on the undead Lanthorn. Without a cleric it makes no sense to have them around.

Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:10 am

Mcneilk,

Glad you found your happy medium with our collective wisdom and advice. That is one of the greatest benefits of this forum. I've received some good tips from folks here and hope to pass the tradition in turn.

Let us know if you have anything else you want to throw our way.

always,

Lanthorn

p.s. Personally, I've never had a problem with running NPCs in an active role either, so if you need to 'create' Burne, Rufus, Otis, etc and play them as NPCs, have at it! Just make sure they don't completely run the show and totally overshadow your players. If it makes sense they will become active participants, so be it. If not, continue to run them in a supporting role instead as they are now.

Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:17 am

I'm in the process of doing a conversion of TOEE to 3E and was a bit concerned about leveling to quickly as it seemed to me that under the 3E rules characters leveled up much quicker than in 1E and 2E. I no longer have those concerns after finding this blog post: http://www.totalbullgrit.com/treasure-and-experience-in-classic-dd-adventures/

Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:00 pm

thanks for that cyrusalthantas. Interesting indeed. Not sure but i think my party has more xp but have magic items xp + the 10% bonus. I was (not anymore) giving a little bonus for damage taken/given as well as spells cast. The magic item xp has only been the xp given in the DMG. If they sell the item i give them the gold but not the xp for that gold.

I also may change the ratio of xp for gp. I have been using 1 for 1. Thats no good. i would be more into giving them more gold if they didn't get all that xp. Next time we meet up there will be some pre game discussion lanthorn style.

Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:17 pm

For the record, I have never given XP for treasure like gp. It only makes your game into a world where people (characters) plunder for quick experience, IMO. I've never appreciated granting XP for gold, even with thieves. I give XP for the use of abilities and skills, however, as offered in 2e and the various Complete Books written for each character class.

-Lanthorn

Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:59 pm

We gave 1 XP per 10 g.p., and it was divided evenly among the party. Even with that, The group I played in, and in both instances in which I have run ToEE, after finishing t! the PCs were mostly 2nd level, but very, very close to 3rd level, with the odd cleric or thief edging into 3rd level (because they need fewer XP to get there).

Lanthorn is dead on about the undead (mindless undead need a controller, but something like ghouls wouldn't), though animating the dead remains of the former inhabitants of the cleared out Earth Temple would be a good way for the clerics from a competing temple to protect their newly claimed Earth Temple territory.

Another idea to keep in mind is that repopulating an area is also a perfect opportunity for introducing a future antagonist (if you plan to have them get away), or a minion of said antagonist, if you want to establish a link to something else. In one game I added a visiting drow contingent, as the drow are eluded to here and there (though I will not go into any details). I think I put them near a place where they were hoping to take control of certain prisoners that they would really, really want to get a hold of and have some "fun" with. Wink

_________________
- Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -

Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:30 am

woh woh stop the clock.

So you are in fact suggesting that the cache of weapons and the black capes with a yellow eye of fire that were found in the dungeon of the moathouse were in fact objects of the minions of Lolth?

Another interesting quirk or quork if you want is in the link given by Cyrusalthantas. They have the G series coming after T which makes no sense not only alphabetically but it is completely ignoring the Scourge of the Slavelords. The A series starts with the party relaxing on the porch in Hommlet after they finished with the Temple.

I would like another crack at the ghouls now that i know how long the paralysis lasts but i don't think the party is gonna leave enough time for repopulation.

I have perused the temple module at least once but it is becoming clear to me that the whole ending is contrived and nobody plays it. This makes my job easier since the nodes were going to represent problems. I have my manual of the planes so still might take a crack at it. Someone said that the nodes themselves could be a campaign. That sounds eerily familiar to D3 and the Drow city.

Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:36 am

Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:39 pm

Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:24 pm

Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:04 am

T1 cover is something i had to find on ebay to get a look at. It is cool to say the least.

As i said before the party is not going to be gone to train so the repopulation of the dungeon is a moot point.

Up to this point i have been giving specialization to all human fighter types. Double specialization for a fighter of 3rd or greater level. For the next level humanoids are going to get the specialization as well. Another tweek i made was the 0 level guards are now 1st. We will see how things go.

Cebrion i don't know where to find the section on Senshock's lair? If its in the module i really don't know how i could have overlooked it. I did a search for it on this site but came up empty. I was not trying to be a spoiler just thinking out loud i guess. That was an avenue i did not consider.

Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:38 am

Room 404 should be the lair

Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:22 am

i should actually finish reading the module before i make wild conjectures.

Embarassed

Lots of detail. Very well done.

Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:03 pm

I'm currently running ToEE and I found it was a bit of a headache getting to grips with the different factions and symbols partly because the information is ferreted away throughout the whole module. I also made copies of the dungeon maps and shaded them in different colours so I knew who controlled which areas!

I'd definitely recommend reading through it all first and maybe even compiling a list of the factions, the members and motivations. I've compiled a list myself I can send you if you like?

The Fire Temple covets the numbers of the Earth Temple and so it would make sense that they would be the first to step in and try and hoover up the remaining Earth Temple Reavers and bolster their own forces.

I don't think that 10 days is that long really - it takes time to negotiate terms with potential converts, create undead, organise a new set up, mop up the blood and entrails, et cetera. Esepcially as most of them are chaotic.

Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:57 am

Wolfing i would be very interested in seeing your list of factions. I would also be interested to hear how you plan on running the end of the module. I would say more but don't want to be a spoiler.

Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:28 am

There are also these maps, which are pretty nice. Cool

_________________
- Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -

Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:02 pm

maps? what maps are you taking about?

Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:25 am

See? That's what happens when I post at 5:28 AM- I either talk crazy or leave stuff out! Laughing

Get your bib and drool cup ready before you click on the various links on this site:

SUPER AWESOME HAPPY FUNTIME ToEE MAPS!!!!

Oh yes! Download maps, bring disk to Copy Max, FedEx-Kinkos, or other copy place (because these maps will violate your ink cartridges in unspeakable ways! Razz

), and then enjoy! Cool

_________________
- Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -

Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:36 am

Those are good maps. Unreal actually but like most things good and bad.

first the good: visually stunning. It has light and light sources on the map. The detail is incredible.

the bad:only level one of the dungeon. I want more.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:32 pm

I have a nagging suspicion that somebody is going to break out in an Oliver Twist song at any moment. Laughing

_________________
- Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -

Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:34 am

PLEESSEEEEE CCCCCCC may we have another?? Laughing

Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:46 pm

Maps! Glorious maps! Razz

SirXaris

Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:01 pm

Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:53 pm

It seems to me with all this talk of TTOEE that I am certainly missing out on all the 'fun.' Cry

I only delved, as player, into the upper regions of this foul place to retrieve the captured brother (Gnarley Ranger) of my fighter-priest of Trithereon. We never went deeper than was necessary to liberate him...but I know from speaking with my DM that there was much, much more to it than we discovered! Shocked

Glad we got out with our hides intact.

-Lanthorn

Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:30 am

Just putting the finishing touches prepping level two. After reading the entire module i finally realize the depth of the detail and all the interrelationships involved in the denizens of the temple. It was pretty easy to absorb the remaining earth elemental players into another faction. (Alrrem was more than a little surprised when he delivered his ultimatum to Romag in rm 137. And yet a glimmer of hope. With his mind whirling he rushed to visit Turnkey. The lure of torturing more innocents was to much for Turnkey to refuse and he quickly bent his knee to fire.)

I am still undecided in how far to take the module. Part of me thinks of calling it a day after level two if the players continue their systematic elimination of all the creatures they encounter. Or does a DM use a NPC to steer the party in a direction where stealth becomes predominant? And to what end? Exploring the nodes? Obtaining a certain orb? Destroying the bug goddess Zuggtmoy?

Gaming on friday. Better get back to prepping. Rm 223. 6 bugbears each clad in gray kilt and cloak, the latter with a large black square sewn upon it to indicate the personal retinue of the Air temple. Thats a quote in case you couldn't tell. Me and Gygax don't have the same vocabulary or grammar eh?

Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:28 am

Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:38 pm

Thanks for the advice sirX. I am sure it will work itself out. The PCs are more skilled at playing than i have given them credit. They are very cautious and have well thought out plans. As for making it more challenging i have. Two fighters in the party have specialization. one bow one sword.

Every guard fighter type as well as every humanoid they meet has weapon specialization. 3rd lvl and better fighters get double specialization. A simple ogre with specialization can be devastating. A bit overboard i am starting to think but lets see how it plays out.

one of my players lurked here. he got sick of the negative publicity and went away.

Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:48 pm

Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:03 pm

Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:06 am

If the PCs are not stealthy, start having the Temple leaders set up ambushes of their own for the returning PCs. It is not like they won't notice the place being systematically cleaned out. If the evil guys are more and more stealthy, perhaps the PCs will figure out that they will need to be more and more stealthy. Some players are just dense though, so good luck! Laughing

_________________
- Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -

Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:01 pm

Another game weekend wraps up. 23 hours of table time(including much drinking of beer and chewing of fat) and the more we play the easier i get. Paying for training is out as is time spent training. Gp to xp has drastically changed as well.

The plan for stealth is out.... sorta. The party is very cautious but it has been decided that they will not be coming out of the dungeon until the job is done. Currently they have finished the first level and are about half done the second.

I find it amusing how my attitude has changed. There was a thread realism vs playing and i have changed my stance. The game has evolved for all of us and we spent almost the entire first night role playing. One of the "sometimes there" players was a little disappointed that he had to wait so long to kill something but it was all good.

What's the stance on posting pics here? I snapped a shot of my basement set up for play. Can i post it? Maybe some shots of my bikes?

Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:06 pm

I don't see why not (use common sense, of course, what pics you post, and read the Canonfire Rules), but they likely belong in the Backalley forum instead.

Personally, I'd like to see your 'gaming lair.' Evil Grin

Mine is my kitchen table. Embarassed

-Lanthorn

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:25 am

i will get this figured somehow

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:29 am

pictures edited out. back on topic. The T of EE.

Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:37 am

"Most" of your bikes?! Happy

That's a nice gaming lair, too, mcneilk. Cool

SirXaris

Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:42 pm One Item Missing

I can almost smell the pizza ready to be set on the table! ...Or one of those RELs Red Hot burritos and a Big Gulp.

Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:48 pm

pizza, burritos, and big gulps? My wife would kill me.

Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:23 am