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warlock
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:26 am  
New Campaign

Hi Guys,

I will be kicking off a new campaign soon with 4 players of varying levels of experience, using Mongoose Publishing's Legend Rules System. The players have become caught up with playing newbie members of a Thieves' Guild. Cool concept and I am game to run this.

The question I have is around where to set the campaign. A smaller city is probably ideal as there are enough opportunities to make the game exciting without it being overly complex. Somewhere an Elf, a Baklunish sorcerer, a human outdoors man probably of Flan stock and a more traditional human rogue could all hang out.

I am not discarding a larger city like Dyvers but I figured a smaller city may be more manageable.

Any thoughts?
Wolfling
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:09 am  

Hi warlock,

Although it seems obvious, I'd actual recommend Greyhawk City.

Although admittedly it's not small it does have the advantage of having lots of detailed source material (including detailed maps) to make it less work for yourself. Also it's very cosmopolitan so a varied band of adventurers poses little problem.
rasgon
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:12 am  

How about Thornward? It's kind of a Casablanca-like free city midway between Baklunish and eastern cultures. There's some good ideas to start with here: http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=130
Ragr
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:29 pm  

Hardby, Narwell and Safeton are small, there are maps and some details written up and, if you want to shift the action to the big G, it's not too far away.

Of course, they might be a little "townie" in scale.
jamesdglick
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:42 pm  

Ragr wrote:
Hardby, Narwell and Safeton are small, there are maps and some details written up and, if you want to shift the action to the big G, it's not too far away.

Of course, they might be a little "townie" in scale.


-Hmmm... Warlock wrote "newbie", so I assume they're starting at 1st level (the way all PCs should Wink ). The problem is the Bakluni. How does he get all the way to Wooly Bay without earning any XPs? I can think of two ways:

1) He's a Wolf or Tiger Nomad and took the Velverdyva to the Nyr Dyv, then down the Selintan. The route is relatively safe, thus explaining his complete inexperience. A Ketite taking roughly the same route, but through Bissel and Veluna would do the same thing;

2) Warlock could have the PC do a little "pre-adventuring" to get him to Wooly Bay.

The same issue comes up, to a lesser extent, for Greyhawk.

The other PCs are a little more generic. Elves and "Flann" outdoorsmen come from plenty of places.

How about a town in Ket? You would have to most of your own material, though, which may be a plus or minus from your point of view (is there anything from Living Greyhawk?). The sorcerer and the rogue could have known each other before becoming adventurers, and the Elf and the Flann can travel to meet them.

When will the campaign be set? That could make some difference.
Lanthorn
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:44 pm  

I like the idea of Greyhawk City, given that it is a melting pot of many different ethnic backgrounds, has a well-defined city map, cast of characters, and plenty of information you can use, ESPECIALLY since it is a city of thieves! I mean, you couldn't ask for more, could you?! Happy

If you are set against CoG, then the Wild Coast is another place where 'anything goes.' Or perhaps the Bandit Kingdoms.

-Lanthorn
SirXaris
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:56 pm  

The problem with the City of Greyhawk is that it has an extremely well-entrenched Thieve's guild, so the PCs would have a difficult time, as new members (1st level) doing anything except guild assignments. The guild won't allow them, or any member, to freelance within the city itself.

A smaller city will likely have a less powerful guild that is not so dictatorial in its control of lesser members. Pre-Greyhawk Wars, Hardby or any of the Wild Coast cities would suffice. Or you could decide what area of the Flanaess your players would prefer to adventure in and pick just about any city/town in that region.

SirXaris

Last edited by SirXaris on Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total
warlock
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Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:07 am  

Yowzer Guys, thanks for all the pointers.

Some additional input is I will be using the Legend system, from Mongoose Publishing. It is, basically, RuneQuest so there are no levels for PCs.

I am going to be starting the campaign as of the 3.0 Edition Gaz, so 591CY.

So far I am leaning towards Thornward or Dyvers, I know next to nothing of Thornward and, as Rasgon indicated, it has a unique location. Dyvers resonates with me and is a large city where anything can happen.
SirXaris
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Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:23 am  

Regarding Thornward:

In 591 CY, at the end of the Greyhawk Wars, the city was divided into three sections controlled by three different governments: Ket, Veluna, and Bissel. It was full of armed soldiery of those three nations and was a powder keg as a result of the tension between them. It brought images of Berlin when it was divided between East and West. Theives could have a heyday in such a situation. Wink

Much of this information can be found in the LGG.

SirXaris
jamesdglick
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Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:09 am  

warlock wrote:
...Some additional input is I will be using the Legend system, from Mongoose Publishing. It is, basically, RuneQuest so there are no levels for PCs...


-I'm not familiar with the rules system, but I assume that the players improve with experience, whether they're defined by "levels" or by improving individual skills.

My main point is that someone who journeys a long distance is likely to be older and wiser than a guy just starting off in his backyard.
jamesdglick
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Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:15 am  

warlock wrote:
...Some additional input is I will be using the Legend system, from Mongoose Publishing. It is, basically, RuneQuest so there are no levels for PCs...


-I'm not familiar with the details of RQ, but I assume that characters still improve through experience (skills and the like) even if they don't have "levels" per se.

My main point is that, all other things being equal, someone who traveled a long way to get somewhere will be a little more experienced than someone just starting out in his own backyard.

SirXaris wrote:
The problem with the City of Greyhawk is that it has an extremely well-entrenched Thieve's guild, so the PCs would have a difficult time, as new members (1st level) doing anything except guild assignments. The guild won't allow them, or any member, to freelance within the city itself...


-Is that neccessarily a deal breaker? It would give the rogue a chance to get on his feet.

Hmmm... when Gord was a youngin' in the Beggar's Guild, he started off being second rebec, but moved on quickly. And his time as a flunk was definitely adventurous. Wink
Argon
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Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:57 pm  

SirXaris wrote:
Regarding Thornward:

In 591 CY, at the end of the Greyhawk Wars, the city was divided into three sections controlled by three different governments: Ket, Veluna, and Bissel. It was full of armed soldiery of those three nations and was a powder keg as a result of the tension between them. It brought images of Berlin when it was divided between East and West. Theives could have a heyday in such a situation. Wink

Much of this information can be found in the LGG.

SirXaris


Actually its four partss the Gran March controls a quarter of the city as well.
I ran a chat-based campaign set in Bissel and there are many different factions involved. So newbie's to a guild are fine, though some of the factions in my campaign where as follows. An assassin guild named the eyes of possession (devoted to the baklunish god Sevelkar, aka Incabulos), The Knights of the March (large Grand March influence here), The Blacks which seem like a rouge freedom fighter organization with pull in the Bissel quarter. The passive palm a religious group from Veluna that patrols the dock areas and offers food and water the poor, and homeless, as well as immigrants entering Thornward, and the Baklunish brother hood, this group looks to support those of baklunish decent, as racial tension against even native baklunish citizens is common place since Ket's invasion of Bissel.

There are many more groups but these are the movers and shakers each have their influence over different sections of Thornward. Thornward is not that small but it's a speck on the map compared to Dyvers or Greyhawk City.

Good Luck on your decision.

Later

Argon
warlock
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Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:38 pm  

Thanks for all the input guys! Much appreciated.

I have settled on Dyvers as the city, there are some great resources available online and in the Slavers module, that I can incorporate.

I will definitely post updates as we go along! First session is scheduled for 02 February so I am quite excited!
Lanthorn
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Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:56 pm  

jamesdglick wrote:
-Is that neccessarily a deal breaker? It would give the rogue a chance to get on his feet.

Hmmm... when Gord was a youngin' in the Beggar's Guild, he started off being second rebec, but moved on quickly. And his time as a flunk was definitely adventurous. Wink


True, jamesdglick! I concur readily.

However, our illustrious author of this post has cast his vote for Dyvers, and so Dyvers it shall be! (sound of gavel thundering downward) Happy

For the record, doesn't Dyvers have a long-standing enmity with Greyhawk, stemming from a history of competition and the like for trade and commerce???

-Lanthorn
warlock
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Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:43 am  

Thanks Lanthorn, but I don't know about illustrious! Happy

Yes, I also thought I heard about the conflict between Greyhawk and Dyvers. I would like to incorporate that somehow. Maybe rivals from Greyhawk are making a play to establish a footlhold in Dyvers Smile
Ragr
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Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:52 am  

IIRC, the respective thieves guilds of the two cities have a longstanding enmity; no books to hand to confirm details, however.
ek
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Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:59 am  

SirXaris wrote:
The problem with the City of Greyhawk is that it has an extremely well-entrenched Thieve's guild, so the PCs would have a difficult time


If that situation doesn't serve/suit the DM and players, feel free to just say the head of said Guild is on his death-bed, natural or unnatural causes, which potentially fractures the well-entrenched structure due to inter-faction manueverings to fill the impending power vacuum.
Lanthorn
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Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:33 am  

Ragr wrote:
IIRC, the respective thieves guilds of the two cities have a longstanding enmity; no books to hand to confirm details, however.


Check out Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, entry Dyers, pages 40-42. It is confirmed. The Cities of Dyvers and Greyhawk have historical rivalries based on trade, commerce, the arts, and cultural influence. Dyvers has a bitter taste in its mouth since it has been upstaged by the newer city, now dubbed "Gem of the Flanaess."

-Lanthorn
Ragr
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Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:41 am  

Got it;

"There is an ongoing deadly feud between The Alliance (Dyver's Guild) and Greyhawk's Thieves Guild".

Pg 9 "Slavers".
Lanthorn
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Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:52 am  

So it affects ALL aspects of the two cities. Makes perfect sense.

Seems that there are MANY possibilities for the DM to exploit in this case for any sort of adventure or campaign plot!

-Lanthorn
rasgon
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Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:56 am  

It's kinda hard to imagine what thieves in two different cities would have to fight about. They don't really compete over the same territories. It must be more of a personal grudge, like Greyhawker thieves stole a precious relic from the Alliance and they've never forgiven them. Maybe they travel to one anothers' cities regularly to raid each others' guildhalls. There's a lot of good Dyvers stuff in the Oerth Journal.
Lanthorn
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Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:02 am  

Actually, I can see how commercial competition would affect thiefly operations, especially with protection, racketeering, smuggling, and black market operations. Kinda like mob operations and how they have their fingers in nearly every business venture.

Check out the Complete Guide to Thieves for a fairly extensive list and description of 'thief' operations. Many of these would bleed over into commerce, trade, and 'legal' activities.

-Lanthorn
Mystic-Scholar
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Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:12 am  

Both publications found in the City of Greyhawk boxed set point out that relations between Dyvers and Greyhawk are not good. Dyvers does not appreciate Greyhawks "usurpation" of it's (former) position as the most important trade port on the Nyr Dyv . . . even though that happened quite some time ago.



jamesdglick wrote:
SirXaris wrote:
The problem with the City of Greyhawk is that it has an extremely well-entrenched Thieve's guild . . . The guild won't allow them, or any member, to freelance within the city itself...


-Is that neccessarily a deal breaker? It would give the rogue a chance to get on his feet.

Hmmm... when Gord was a youngin' in the Beggar's Guild, he started off being second rebec, but moved on quickly. And his time as a flunk was definitely adventurous. Wink


One must remember that in Saga of Old City, Greyhawk's Thieves Guild destroyed the Beggars Guild for infringing on their "territory," a.k.a. "thieving."

The Guild Master of the Beggar's Guild died while running for his life. Wink
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Ragr
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Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:32 am  

rasgon wrote:
It must be more of a personal grudge, like Greyhawker thieves stole a precious relic from the Alliance and they've never forgiven them. Maybe they travel to one anothers' cities regularly to raid each others' guildhalls.


This is what I love best about Greyhawk, the "greys" rather than the clearly defined canon.

In my campaign the clash of these guilds is/was all about personalities and egos of the criminal kind. Either guild was not strong enough to destroy the other so it's all about a long war of attrition that neither could really ever win. For most members the reasons for the antipathy are long forgotten, were never known in the first place or put aside because there are few rich pickings to be had from pursuing vendettas. For those that do pursue the rivalry any cause has been replaced by sheer tribalism of the most brutal and petty kind.

It was never really a subject fully explored by my players as they showed little interest in the tidbits I fed them during an attempt at foreshadowing. It has, however, long lurked in my planning folder and may still see the light of day eventually; some of it has already peeked out, but more on that as the year goes on, time allowing as ever.
warlock
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Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:51 am  

I know it is a different genre but I love the political maneuverings of a typical World of Darkness Vampire campaign and would love to build that in to my campaign.

I was also thinking of the conflict as being similar to a mob war for expansion.
Lanthorn
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Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:33 pm  

warlock wrote:
I know it is a different genre but I love the political maneuverings of a typical World of Darkness Vampire campaign and would love to build that in to my campaign.


YES!!! Probably my second favorite RPG!!! I reached newer heights of subterfuge and layered plots in that gaming system never achieved in AD&D...

-Lanthorn
jamesdglick
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Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:50 pm  

Lanthorn wrote:
Actually, I can see how commercial competition would affect thiefly operations, especially with protection, racketeering, smuggling, and black market operations. Kinda like mob operations and how they have their fingers in nearly every business venture...


-Historical analogy: Al Capone's Chicago mob tried to take over the route for Canadian booze through Detroit. This was run by a Jewish mob known as the Purple Gang (immortalized in "Jailhouse Rock"). Chicago boys lost. They had to cut a deal. Laughing
Lanthorn
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Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:03 pm  

Excellent real world example supporting my point. Thanks, sir.

tipping his cap,

-Lanthorn
ek
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Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:13 am  

rasgon wrote:
It's kinda hard to imagine what thieves in two different cities would have to fight about. ... It must be more of a personal grudge....


I love questions like these. This is what leads folks to come up with answers which can drive campaigns.

Kudos to the Chicago/Detroit example.

This is a bit "boilerplate" but if we're talking trade routes on the Nyr Dyv, then pirates are just water-borne thieves. This makes it easier to envision why guilds from 2 locations might fight each other.

How about more "fantastic" answers?
SirXaris
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Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:07 am  

ek wrote:
How about more "fantastic" answers?


1) Both are secretly controled by more powerful organizations - Greyhawk Theive's Guild by those blue spelljamming merchants, and Dyvers by the drow, mind flayers, githyanki, etc. Both groups want a foothold from which to conquer the surface of Oerth, but must prevent the other from gaining such a foothold.

2) When mayor of Greyhawk, Zagig the Mad Archmage rejected demands from Dyvers government to have his city annexed and subjugated by the then larger city. This initiatied enmity between the leadership of Dyvers and Greyhawk which trickled down their respective populaces through the decades since.

3) The Greyhawk Theive's Guild stole something of arcane power from the Dyvers Theive's Guild which it wants back. Greyhawk denies it. Maybe they didn't really do it, but the drow, who want the two powerful cities to come to blows.

And, for a couple of mundane reasons:

1) The cobblestone road Greyhawk is building west toward Dyvers causes more farmers to take their produce east to Greyhawk's markets, thus filling the coffers of the Greyhawk Theive's Guild via protection rackets and more difficult for the Dyvers Theive's Guild to force those same farmers to pay them protection money.

2) Decades ago, two brothers battled for control of the Dyvers Theive's Guild. The one that lost, fled to Greyhawk and took over that city's Theive's Guild. The reason for the enmity between the two was never revealed to the rest of the guilds' members. All both groups know now is that they hate and despise the other for past wrongs and want the other destroyed.

SirXaris
Lanthorn
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Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:29 am  

Toss in rival factions of Zilchus, one based in Greyhawk, the other in Dyvers. Mercantile competition at its best. You can also toss in faiths of Osprem and/or Xerbo, too. We've all seen how money and power drive our govt. This is no different in the Flanaess.

-Lanthorn
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