There are several elven kits from the 2e sourceguide The Complete Book of Elves in which guilds train and expect a term of service out of their trainees. I consider these elves to be a sort of "Special Ops" type of military personnel in the way that we consider our Navy Seals and other highly specialized and trained soldiers.
Specifically I am speaking of the Bladesinger, Infiltrator, and Spellfilcher kits, although the War Wizard and Collector may also apply.
Once these elves have been trained by their respective guilds, they owe that guild, and 'elvendom' in general (of their nations specifically) a general term of service for active duty. I wonder what your thoughts are about the duration for this service, as well as any other ideas you may have about terms and conditions.
-Lanthorn (the name of my own high elven bladesinger, as irony has it)
I am going to suggest that, since elven society is mostly chaotic good, they would be unlikely to have many hard and fast rules in these circumstances.
Rather, societal norms would cause all members to recognize that there are obligatory expectations that they return service to the guild of a suitable nature. Individually, the time of service may vary as individual elves may have opportunities to contribute more or less and in different circumstances. Each elf, and the elven guild and society at large, would consider himself honorably discharged when s/he had fulfilled an amount of service that s/he felt met that obligation. One member may serve for many hundreds of years in a largely administrative position in a large elven city that doesn't have frequent need to call on such members for military defense. Another member of such a guild may serve only a decade, but spend all of that time on one or more extremely dangerous missions.
In effect, I would prefer to think that such a chaotic society would have more subjective measurements for fulfilling its membership obligations than objective requirements. They should be obscure and difficult for outsiders to understand and quantify. When they discover that one elven guild member was honorably discharged from his guild after only two years of service, but a fellow guild member who left with him and had served for a decade was now seen as a pariah by the guild, the explanation should be confusing to anyone not elven or very familiar with elven culture.
No doubt that elven society is less rigidly enforced with rules, regulations, and laws than dwarven, most human, gnomish, and Halfling societies, but there must be some general, basic rules governing not only elves, but also their Guilds. The open-ended nature and flexibility you both have mentioned seems reasonable.
I am sure that these Guilds have a basic, minimum requirement for terms and lengths of service given the vast amount of time and resources it takes to train just one of these members. A Spellfilcher is often taken when a young child, it says, and trained from that point, whereas a Bladesinger must dedicate a full decade to learn those highly demanding skills. This length of time is a lot for a human, but to an elf, of course, it is considerably less (note the longevities given to elves, of any subrace, differs between 1e and 2e DMG sources). I doubt these Guilds would invest ten years of training on an elf if it only received ten years back of service from its members.
I am not sure what this base minimum would be, but I do like what was mentioned that the length of service may be dependent upon the nature, type, and danger level of the missions that its representative Guild members undertake. No doubt many of these Guild members have the mantra, "Once a Spellfilcher (or Bladesinger, etc.), ALWAYS a Spellfilcher" type of saying. Maybe once they have 'paid their dues' to elven society and their Guild they are given a choice to 'retire' or become 'reservists,' or even become instructors in those Guilds to train future generations. However, I am sure that once these elves enter late adulthood or middle age, they are exempt from service...unless they opt to serve.
Also interested to know what you all think about the salaries of these Guild members, including how these Guilds may view distribution of 'spoils' gained on missions...
I suggest you consider at least some of these guilds in the light of fraternities and sororities. They don't 'require' any length of service after induction - the inductee is simply a lifetime member whose loyalty to the organization is ingrained through the training they receive. There is no need to demand that a fraternity member continue to serve the fraternity. Most are very willing, and eager, to serve in administrative capacities. Those that can, happily contribute financially to the fraternity.
I would assume that elves trained up as Spellfilchers, Bladesingers, and members of other such organizations would be extremely devoted to the betterment of elven society that they can accomplish through their own organization. Most would be very happy to serve and contribute without any written requirement to tell them to do so - they would have been indoctrinated during their training in the loyalty expected of them by studying the actions of past members. Those few that shirk such loyalty would become pariahs to the other members and hunted down if they violated any of the organization's trust.
I think you guys are going way, way too much into alignment to define things. Being chaotic doesn't mean that one lacks the ability to organize anything, or to stay to any sort of rigid structure of any kind. Chaotic just means tendency to being more free-willed/selfish about things. Look at the other side of the elven coin for bit. The drow are very chaotic, and yet they have one of the most rigidly defined structures for their society and societal groups...and yet anything can happen at any time, because for the drow it is mostly about breaking the rules (which is not only expected, but encouraged) and not getting caught. That is how their particular (evil) brand of chaos works into things.
Now, good elves can be just as socially organized, but just won't be telling people that they can only do X, Y, or Z based on who/what they are (at least as much). Good elves may very much choose to pursue a certain path or agenda, such as a special sort of training which requires a certain level of dedication and focus to achieve. That is what these kit organizations represent- a group of like-minded individuals who just so happen to have chosen to pursue a particular thing that they couldn't pursue on their own. Elves have guilds, societies, fraternities/sororities, and other such groups just like everybody else does, and they operate under bylaws like any others do. These groups are not the Knights of Luna, who are really more of a club than a knightly order, as they don't really have membership requirements anything similar to what these mainly warrior related groups do. There is an obvious difference between the two. The Knights of Luna don't train people to be Archers, Wilderness Runners, Windriders, Spellfilchers, Bladesingers, War Wizards, or Infiltrators, but any of those could also just so happen to eventually become a Knight of Luna after being trained by the organizations who actually do train such people. For such groups to even be remotely reputable, they have to have their...stuff...together. A group like the Knights of Luna, whose members often operate in small groups or independently, probably see having one's...stuff...together as a pretty good feature to have on the ol' resumé, because having a bunch of half-cocked, disorganized fools is not exactly conducive to achieving any sort of group agenda.
As to how much time a PC should be required to dedicate to such groups, three months out of the year pursuing goals of their organization seems reasonable. This service could take many forms though- being an ambassador for the organization, seeking out resources/recruits for the organization, actually spending time at the a location working as a trainer, etc. Rather than being meant to remove a character from adventuring, this required service time is really meant to involve those organizations in the campaign; usually in way of serving its agenda (whatever it may be). That might lead to conflict with other characters/NPCs, or not.
If you really don't want to do that at all, any of the groups might operate similar to an independent non-profit. For example, you might make a private warrior society founded long ago by an elf who wished to train other elves for the overall protection of the race. It is funded by both private donations and member tuition/donations. Members are required to donate their time or money once they are fully trained, but those seeking out this society to begin with are already of a mind to do so anyways. And so a 3 month service time or 10% "tithe" from the character would be reasonable enough to represent this, which would go toward any expenses the warrior society might have. Some of the 2E kits are bit too loaded with benefits, and this is a simple way to off-set that to some degree. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
But to touch on what you've been discussing, I'll say this.
You're not taking into consideration that, in 2nd Edition, Elves live to be over 1200 years old.
Children cannot appreciate "time." Adults can.
Adults appreciate that the 2 years service required by the U.S. Military in return for the training received is nothing. In just about 2 hours, I turn 53 years of age. Trust me, two years? Don't make me laugh.
So, a 1200 year old Elf? "So, trainee, what do you mean you can't give 100 years of service?"
Not only can Elven Society require a specific length of service, it could be a length of service that "mere mortals" might wonder at. An Elf isn't even considered an "Adult" until he/she is 100 years old.
So, they train, they serve and then they still have 1000 years to lolly-gag about the forest, doing whatever their fancy dictates.
I'm sorry, but you guys are tossing around "human" years of service. Ten years is a considerable amount of time for a human, it's nothing for an Elf.
This topic started with a AD&D2 bent, but shifted to a more general discussion. Anyway to shift this to the main topics?
Cebrion wrote:
I think you guys are going way, way too much into alignment to define things. Being chaotic doesn't mean that one lacks the ability to organize anything, or to stay to any sort of rigid structure of any kind...
Now, good elves can be just as socially organized, but just won't be telling people that they can only do X, Y, or Z based on who/what they are (at least as much)...
-The spin I'd put on it is that there wouldn't be a single set type of compensation for specialized training. It would be up to the guy or group doing the training.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
...in 2nd Edition, Elves live to be over 1200 years old.
Children cannot appreciate "time." Adults can...So, a 1200 year old Elf? "So, trainee, what do you mean you can't give 100 years of service?"...I'm sorry, but you guys are tossing around "human" years of service. Ten years is a considerable amount of time for a human, it's nothing for an Elf...
-Agreed. An indentureship is a lot longer than 7 years, even for gnomes and dwarves.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
...Adults appreciate that the 2 years service required by the U.S. Military in return for the training received is [b]nothing..
-I've considered that one. IMC, active duty military conscription for males in Ratik is 18 months long. I thought about making it longer for dwarves and gnomes (and others, inclusing eleves), but decided against it. Consequently, gnomes and dwarves don't see it as a big deal, and usually volunteer for two years.
-Agreed. An indenture-ship is a lot longer than 7 years, even for gnomes and dwarves.
IMC, active duty military conscription for males in Ratik is 18 months long. I thought about making it longer for dwarves and gnomes (and others, including elves), but decided against it.
Why would you decide against it?
Consider your own example of indenture-ship: An indentured servant typically served 10 years and that was just to pay his passage across the ocean. It gave him nothing to start himself out in business, or for purchasing land. So many served longer than 10 years.
Then there's Apprenticeship. A boy was apprenticed when he was 7 years old. The apprenticeship usually lasted 7 years. Was he a master of his craft, setting up his own shop when he was 14?
Not hardly.
In point of fact, after finishing their "basic training," they would continue to serve their master by continuing their labor for an agreed period after they have achieved measurable competencies.
In short, during the apprenticeship, the only thing the apprentice did was cost the master time and money. So what does the master get out of the deal? Once the apprentice had garnered a degree of competency, he would continue to serve the master, earning the master money.
Today Schneider Transportation will train you to drive truck for "free." Truck Driving School costs $5000.00 today -- just talked with a recent graduate at the DMV, when I was exchanging my Texas license for a Pennsylvania one.
What does Schneider get out of the deal? You have to drive for Schneider for one year -- when I was there, maybe longer now -- otherwise, if you quit them, you owe them the $5000.00. And yes, you sign/ed a contract to that effect. No getting out of it.
So, how long does the specialized training of your elves and dwarves take? Then how much service do they owe -- in "time" -- for their training?
The average life span of a human is 75 years for males. An indentured servant could serve for as long as 15 years. An apprenticeship could also last 15 years.
That's 1/5th of a human's life span. What's 1/5th of 1200 years? 240 years.
Dwarves average 350 year life spans in 2nd Edition. What's 1/5th of 350? 70 years.
Add those facts with the fact that both Dwarves' and Elves' are partially explained with: "They mature slower than do short lived humans."
Even in 2nd Edition Elves are considered "children" until the age of 75 -- when most humans are dying.
In The Hobbit, Gimli is almost 30 years old, but is still at home with his mother, not adventuring with his father to retake Erebor.
So, percentage wise, you guys are saying that humans are far stupider than elves and dwarves. And I disagree with that assessment.
No, I don't associate human years with Elven or Dwarven years. I don't think humans are "dumber" that demi-humans. No, I think elves and dwarves would "serve" much long periods of "apprenticeship" and "service" in exchange for the specialized skills they learn.
-Agreed. An indenture-ship is a lot longer than 7 years, even for gnomes and dwarves.
IMC, active duty military conscription for males in Ratik is 18 months long. I thought about making it longer for dwarves and gnomes (and others, including elves), but decided against it.
Why would you decide against it?
...It's called: Proportional.
-I (excuse me, Archbaron Lexnol ) only decided against it for compulsory military service in Ratik. In that case, 18 months is 18 months.
Proportionality comes into play with what a candidate is willing to accept as a term for an indentureship, with longer lived people more willing to serve longer terms.
The longer-lived races might simply have higher standards (which Cebrion sort of referenced); a human (trained by a human) spends less time getting to journeyman bowyer than an elf. An elf who went through a human program would probably be a little less capable than a elven-trained bowyer, but it would be an easy ride for him. A human going through a elven program would be a brilliant bowyer by human standards, assuming he didn't die of old age first. Going back to Lanthorn's original point, bladesinger training probably takes a long time.[/i]
Proportionality comes into play with what a candidate is willing to accept as a term for an indenture-ship, with longer lived people more willing to serve longer terms.[/i]
I don't buy the "willingness" part. It's always a matter of willingness. "What? You say you're not willing, well then, you don't get to be a stone mason. Tough titty!"
The "Master" tells the potential apprentice what he wants in order to train him. Potential apprentices, on the other hand, have nothing to offer the "Master." There are many willing apprentices out there.
jamesdglick wrote:
The longer-lived races might simply have higher standards (which Cebrion sort of referenced) . . .
"Higher standards" is a misnomer.
Elves are better bowmen that humans from the simple fact that they've been doing it a hell of a lot longer, period. That means a longer apprenticeship and longer service.
Proportionality comes into play with what a candidate is willing to accept as a term for an indenture-ship, with longer lived people more willing to serve longer terms.[/i]
I don't buy the "willingness" part. It's always a matter of willingness...
-Sure, but an elf is more likely to be willing to accept a 49 year-long apprenticeship than a human.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
jamesdglick wrote:
The longer-lived races might simply have higher standards (which Cebrion sort of referenced) . . .
"Higher standards" is a misnomer.
Elves are better bowmen that humans from the simple fact that they've been doing it a hell of a lot longer, period. That means a longer apprenticeship and longer service.
Elves aren't "better" just because they're elves. Not in my game.
-Two sides of the same coin. Elves have longer to practice, so they tend to be a lot more skilled, therefore their standards tend to be higher.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
...Elves aren't "better" just because they're elves. Not in my game.
-Not in mine, either, although elves also tend to have higher DEX scores. But, all other things being equal, a human with 17 DEX would be a better archer than an elf with 11 DEX if it weren't for the long elf training.
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