According to the experience point table in the DMG (page 48), a spell-caster gets points for casting spells to overcome foes or problems (wizard) or to further the ethos (cleric). Here are some queries and how you, as DM, handle these issues:
1) Do you place a limit on the amount a caster will receive at any one time by casting the same spell(s), even if it meets the aforementioned requirements...or not? Defend your reasoning, please.
Ex: A wizard uses Mending repeatedly, over the course of so many hours, days, etc. to repair items. Does he get XP for each and every casting, or do you set a limit? This example can be used to broadly describe any other spell used in a similar context, by the way.
Ex: A cleric casts healing magic on several people (or multiples on a single person) who helped the priest to further his ethos. Does the cleric get XP for each and every casting, or is there a limit?
2) Your player has his/her PC wizard or cleric performing routine duties over the span of several weeks or months. You, as DM, don't role-play out each and every day (it gets monotonous), but generally agree the PC is using magic to solve a variety of problems (mage) or help maintain the faith, temple, tend to the flock, etc. (cleric) Do you give a flat XP tally for that time frame to reflect this (and, if so, what method do you employ?), or do you give a "ball park" figure representing what spells were cast at this time (again, how do you determine this)?
I have found, and continue to find, myself in these situations and am not sure what is the most fair and just. I don't want to rob my PCs of earning some XP as they are going about daily duties and not 'actively adventuring.' Just because a cleric isn't out of his/her temple doesn't mean that cleric isn't using his/her God-given spells to advance "the cause." Wizards, too, can still use magic here and there to help them solve problems while studying or selling their services to others.
Ex: A wizard uses Mending repeatedly, over the course of so many hours, days, etc. to repair items. Does he get XP for each and every casting, or do you set a limit? This example can be used to broadly describe any other spell used in a similar context, by the way.
Casting mending to repair times as a general task is not "solving a problem". "Solving a problem" is solving a problem in the midst of an adventure. Examples of that are casting tongues to be able to communicate with some weird critter that has vital information, casting mending on a broken key required to access a special place or item, casting levitate on a platform to move the PCs from one level of a shaft to another, casting dispel magic on a glyph of DOOM! that the thief failed to disarm, etc. Doing repairs/maintenance on equipment is not "solving a problem".
Lanthorn wrote:
Ex: A cleric casts healing magic on several people (or multiples on a single person) who helped the priest to further his ethos. Does the cleric get XP for each and every casting, or is there a limit?
The only time a priest will get XP for healing people is if the PCs are acting directly on behalf of the cleric's faith. For example, the PCs have been charged with taking down the Temple of Elemental Evil, and the cleric of the party (who worships St. Cuthbert) knows that the temple's cultists are direct followers of St. Cuthbert's nemesis, Iuz, and have received their wounds fighting against these vile minions. To keep the PCs able to continue the fight is in the direct interest of the faith of St. Cuthbert, the cleric's deity, and so he would get XP for any spells directly used to further the PC's success in their endeavor. A cleric of a lawful good deity could be said to gain spell XP when those spells are cast in defense of a lawful and good group of people or place. If the cleric's faith hates a particular type of foe, any time that foe or minions of that foe are encountered, spell XP would apply if the spells are used to attack, defend against, or in some way prevail against (such as healing fellow PCs fighting alongside the cleric) such foes. If this case applies, they get XP for *each* spell. Clerics often have a hard case to make for their spell XP, which is why they also get XP in other ways. Clerics will tend to salivate when lots of undead are around, having access to an ability they can use an unlimited number of times per day, and get the XP award even if they only turn/command one undead in any group. And as soon as they start getting a "T" on the column, that is auto XP! W00T!
Lanthorn wrote:
2) Your player has his/her PC wizard or cleric performing routine duties over the span of several weeks or months. You, as DM, don't role-play out each and every day (it gets monotonous), but generally agree the PC is using magic to solve a variety of problems (mage) or help maintain the faith, temple, tend to the flock, etc. (cleric) Do you give a flat XP tally for that time frame to reflect this (and, if so, what method do you employ?), or do you give a "ball park" figure representing what spells were cast at this time (again, how do you determine this)?
This is no example of "solving problems" (see above). If you were to give XP for this, you'd give a fighter 1 XP for every stroke of a whetstone he made on his sword. Or if he brushed his horse down after riding it. That's a tenner right there! Or the thief that just sits around picking all of the new locks he bought (or "bought"), just to rip up the XP. He also keeps pickpocketing the other PCs, and for some reason, wherever he goes he always attempts to move silently and hide in shadows. By the way, is there a particular reason why the thief is 10th level and everyone else is only 5th level? These are all 0 XP activities. Now if the thief goes out on the street and starts pickpocketing strangers, well, that's a different story altogether.
Lanthorn wrote:
I have found, and continue to find, myself in these situations and am not sure what is the most fair and just. I don't want to rob my PCs of earning some XP as they are going about daily duties and not 'actively adventuring.' Just because a cleric isn't out of his/her temple doesn't mean that cleric isn't using his/her God-given spells to advance "the cause." Wizards, too, can still use magic here and there to help them solve problems while studying or selling their services to others.
You are not robbing them of anything because it is only in very, very rare instances that anything similar to this would earn any XP. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Firstly, I want to thank you for the point-by-point, thorough response. Upon reading them, I have a few counter-questions or statements.
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Casting mending to repair times as a general task is not "solving a problem". "Solving a problem" is solving a problem in the midst of an adventure. Examples of that are casting tongues to be able to communicate with some weird critter that has vital information, casting mending on a broken key required to access a special place or item, casting levitate on a platform to move the PCs from one level of a shaft to another, casting dispel magic on a glyph of DOOM! that the thief failed to disarm, etc.
Does this mean that the only way spell-casters get XP is to use their magic while in a traditional adventure? Although I can see that perhaps routine, daily use of spells may be too commonplace or mundane to necessitate the granting of XP, I find it hard to accept that a PC needs to be in the middle of active adventuring, in the traditional sense, get XP for casting spells. Surely there are general exceptions.
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Doing repairs/maintenance on equipment is not "solving a problem".
What if the spells used are just for that purpose, such as Mending, Unseen Servant, Cantrip, and the like, which, by their very natures and descriptions, lend themselves to daily, basic use? What about a mage who uses his sorcery to assist in seemingly mundane tasks such as building a structure, or assisting the local militia with his magic? These are just 'for instances' that I am considering, that aren't, I guess by strict sense of the definition, 'adventuring.'
Here's an example:
A mage (or perhaps bard, for that matter) uses the aforementioned spells while living in Greyhawk City to keep his house tidy, but also uses these spells to fix broken objects for various merchants, enhance the flavors at a restaurant, and help with basic chores at the local temple to which he is an ardent follower. Does this mean he gets no XP for using these spells since he is not surviving out in the wilds or delving in a dungeon?
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The only time a priest will get XP for healing people is if the PCs are acting directly on behalf of the cleric's faith. For example, the PCs have been charged with taking down the Temple of Elemental Evil, and the cleric of the party (who worships St. Cuthbert) knows that the temple's cultists are direct followers of St. Cuthbert's nemesis, Iuz, and have received their wounds fighting against these vile minions. To keep the PCs able to continue the fight is in the direct interest of the faith of St. Cuthbert, the cleric's deity, and so he would get XP for any spells directly used to further the PC's success in their endeavor. A cleric of a lawful good deity could be said to gain spell XP when those spells are cast in defense of a lawful and good group of people or place. If the cleric's faith hates a particular type of foe, any time that foe or minions of that foe are encountered, spell XP would apply if the spells are used to attack, defend against, or in some way prevail against (such as healing fellow PCs fighting alongside the cleric) such foes. If this case applies, they get XP for *each* spell. Clerics often have a hard case to make for their spell XP, which is why they also get XP in other ways.
I've definitely started keeping more stringent records of when spells are cast to support the ethos of clerics in my games, but sometimes the demarcations get a bit fuzzy and grey. In these cases I often ask my player to defend how/why the use of particular spells actively aids in promoting his Power's cause.
However, there are a few things I struggle with, and could use anyone's insight or perspective:
1) What if the cleric in question is using spells 'around town' (ex: healing or protective magics) on the common folk? Take a cleric of Pelor, for instance. Would such a cleric receive XP for casting such spells on the poor, lowly, and disenfranchised of the city? I'd think so, since Pelor is a Power of Healing, Protection, etc. But isn't this essentially similar to the above mentioned mage using spells for 'basic' and 'routine' purposes outside a 'traditional' adventure??? Nevertheless, such use WOULD be appropriate in the sense it IS furthering the aims and goals of Pelor...
2) Does the use of the spell in question require that it was successfully employed or garner a beneficial result in order to get the XP reward?
Ex: If a priest casts several protective spells (ex: Protection vs Fire, Negative Plane Protection) before going into a potentially dangerous situation wherein these spells may be necessary, and this action supports the Power served by the cleric (ex: cleric of Pelor may encounter undead), does the cleric get XP even if these spells never 'came into play?' (ex: no fire magic used to harm the priest, no undead with energy draining powers encountered)?
Ex: A mage casts Shield (expecting danger) and several Divination spells (Detect Magic, Detect Invisibility) while acting as reconnaissance for a party, but he is never attacked (thus, Shield never employed) and his spells do not detect any magical dweomers or hidden foes (includes those in the Ethereal or Astral realms).
Will XP be granted for casting these spells (their use is necessitated, and not just random) even if they fail to yield results? I've always grappled with that.
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This is no example of "solving problems" (see above). If you were to give XP for this, you'd give a fighter 1 XP for every stroke of a whetstone he made on his sword. Or if he brushed his horse down after riding it. That's a tenner right there! Or the thief that just sits around picking all of the new locks he bought (or "bought"), just to rip up the XP. He also keeps pickpocketing the other PCs, and for some reason, wherever he goes he always attempts to move silently and hide in shadows. By the way, is there a particular reason why the thief is 10th level and everyone else is only 5th level? These are all 0 XP activities. Now if the thief goes out on the street and starts pickpocketing strangers, well, that's a different story altogether.
Clever examples, and I fully agree with you on these points. There are ways that the system can be abused.
Casting mending to repair times as a general task is not "solving a problem". "Solving a problem" is solving a problem in the midst of an adventure. Examples of that are casting tongues to be able to communicate with some weird critter that has vital information, casting mending on a broken key required to access a special place or item, casting levitate on a platform to move the PCs from one level of a shaft to another, casting dispel magic on a glyph of DOOM! that the thief failed to disarm, etc.
Does this mean that the only way spell-casters get XP is to use their magic while in a traditional adventure? Although I can see that perhaps routine, daily use of spells may be too commonplace or mundane to necessitate the granting of XP, I find it hard to accept that a PC needs to be in the middle of active adventuring, in the traditional sense, get XP for casting spells. Surely there are general exceptions.
Yes, adventuring is the "only" way to gain XP for casting spells. The general exceptions would be things out of the ordinary, such as a wizard being sought out to dispel a charm (because only he can do it), or a cleric being called upon to remove curse on a pious member (not a faker) of his flock (i.e. serving his faith/ethos), and similar things that would not be considered an everyday activity. Keep the non-adventuring exceptions to things that wouldn't be considered mundane activities, and that involve duress or an exceptional situation, and you should be good.
Lanthorn wrote:
Quote:
Doing repairs/maintenance on equipment is not "solving a problem".
What if the spells used are just for that purpose, such as Mending, Unseen Servant, Cantrip, and the like, which, by their very natures and descriptions, lend themselves to daily, basic use? What about a mage who uses his sorcery to assist in seemingly mundane tasks such as building a structure, or assisting the local militia with his magic? These are just 'for instances' that I am considering, that aren't, I guess by strict sense of the definition, 'adventuring.'
Here's an example:
A mage (or perhaps bard, for that matter) uses the aforementioned spells while living in Greyhawk City to keep his house tidy, but also uses these spells to fix broken objects for various merchants, enhance the flavors at a restaurant, and help with basic chores at the local temple to which he is an ardent follower. Does this mean he gets no XP for using these spells since he is not surviving out in the wilds or delving in a dungeon?
None of those activities earn XP. Once again, if they did, the spellscater would tear up the XP chart in insane ways compared to every other class, unless you started implementing the examples I previously gave you. You give fighters XP for non-lethal *practice* fighting on their off time. Hey, they did "defeat" whatever HD of opponents, right? And, as I said, thieves could just move silently ALWAYS. Just keep rolling. All day loing. Gee, the thief only managed 134 successes today, so he only earned 13,400 XP IN ONE DAY. Soo, if the classes get XP whenever they do anything, exactly why are there not just billions of 800th level characters everywhere? We know the reason why, and it is laid down on the DMG.
Lanthorn wrote:
Quote:
The only time a priest will get XP for healing people is if the PCs are acting directly on behalf of the cleric's faith. For example, the PCs have been charged with taking down the Temple of Elemental Evil, and the cleric of the party (who worships St. Cuthbert) knows that the temple's cultists are direct followers of St. Cuthbert's nemesis, Iuz, and have received their wounds fighting against these vile minions. To keep the PCs able to continue the fight is in the direct interest of the faith of St. Cuthbert, the cleric's deity, and so he would get XP for any spells directly used to further the PC's success in their endeavor. A cleric of a lawful good deity could be said to gain spell XP when those spells are cast in defense of a lawful and good group of people or place. If the cleric's faith hates a particular type of foe, any time that foe or minions of that foe are encountered, spell XP would apply if the spells are used to attack, defend against, or in some way prevail against (such as healing fellow PCs fighting alongside the cleric) such foes. If this case applies, they get XP for *each* spell. Clerics often have a hard case to make for their spell XP, which is why they also get XP in other ways.
I've definitely started keeping more stringent records of when spells are cast to support the ethos of clerics in my games, but sometimes the demarcations get a bit fuzzy and grey. In these cases I often ask my player to defend how/why the use of particular spells actively aids in promoting his Power's cause.
However, there are a few things I struggle with, and could use anyone's insight or perspective:
1) What if the cleric in question is using spells 'around town' (ex: healing or protective magics) on the common folk? Take a cleric of Pelor, for instance. Would such a cleric receive XP for casting such spells on the poor, lowly, and disenfranchised of the city? I'd think so, since Pelor is a Power of Healing, Protection, etc. But isn't this essentially similar to the above mentioned mage using spells for 'basic' and 'routine' purposes outside a 'traditional' adventure??? Nevertheless, such use WOULD be appropriate in the sense it IS furthering the aims and goals of Pelor...
No, it isn't. What is Pelor's purpose? define that, and you define what furthering Pelor’s ethos is. Basically, write a mission statement for the clergy of Pelor. Don't think too small, or too general either. Stick to the BIG ideas. Casting cure light wounds on the common folk, no XP for them as that is not "solving a problem" (that is what cleric would consider a mundane thing (though normal folk might not). Curing a plague that is ravaging an entire village, now that’s worth XP, as that is what is called "solving a problem".
Lanthorn wrote:
2) Does the use of the spell in question require that it was successfully employed or garner a beneficial result in order to get the XP reward?
Ex: If a priest casts several protective spells (ex: Protection vs Fire, Negative Plane Protection) before going into a potentially dangerous situation wherein these spells may be necessary, and this action supports the Power served by the cleric (ex: cleric of Pelor may encounter undead), does the cleric get XP even if these spells never 'came into play?' (ex: no fire magic used to harm the priest, no undead with energy draining powers encountered)?
No. Say a cleric serves a deity who is a dedicated foe of the undead, such as Pelor or Wee Jas. If a cleric of either casts a negative plane protection spell... and then encounters not a single thing that the negative plane protection spell even protects against, the spell hasn't solved any sort of problem (of defense in this case) or served to advance the cleric's faith/ethos in any way (because the spell was effectively useless), and so no XP are gained. Such a spell does solve a problem, namely that of the cleric (and perhaps others) being able to function properly due to not being drained of levels, so if fighting a level draining foe of some kind such a spell is very specifically effective in aiding in defeating them (or allowing others to do so if the spell is cast on somebody else).
Lanthorn wrote:
Ex: A mage casts Shield (expecting danger) and several Divination spells (Detect Magic, Detect Invisibility) while acting as reconnaissance for a party, but he is never attacked (thus, Shield never employed) and his spells do not detect any magical dweomers or hidden foes (includes those in the Ethereal or Astral realms).
Will XP be granted for casting these spells (their use is necessitated and not just random) even if they fail to yield results? I've always grappled with that.
No XP for any of those, and the spells in those examples weren't necessitated (i.e. they were not required). Spells must have a specific application to a specific problem, not a general one. Spells that are cast on a hunch or “just in case” will seldom garner XP. Casting detect invisibility "just in case" garners a wizard no XP...unless the caster is lucky enough for some invisible thing to show up, but that would have to happen for XP to be gained (i.e. because it "solves a problem/aids in defeating a foe"). Now, if something invisible is lurking about, and the wizard then casts detect invisibility, the XP are automatic. Let me make another specific point somewhat related to this. The example is: the PCs come across some new weird monster. Little do they know that it is immune to certain magical attack forms, but they have no idea which. The wizard hits the thing with a magic missile spell, and it does nothing. So, it is immune to them apparently. Then he hits it with a lightning bolt, and it is likewise immune. Then the wizard hits it with a fire spell, and it is affected. Seeing this, the cleric then hits it with a flamestrike and the wizard then hits it with a fireball. It dies. A DM should not award XP for the spells that didn't affect it. The DM should instead acknowledge the clever idea the wizard had to test the creature's defenses once the first spell failed, and in so doing find out the right attack form to use in defeating it, and award XP for that in addition to the usual XP for defeating the creature. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I fully agree about the spell-casting that does not garner results as intended. I agree that using abilities or spells needlessly should not receive XP. I reread the Experience Chapter in the 2e DMG once more for guidance, but it is vague at best. There are a few passages that are helpful (even mentioning that a wizard casting cantrips to clean house doesn't grant XP) but there is still a lot of room for individual interpretation.
I guess it boils down to what is considered what the DMG says as "Overcoming a problem." The "defeating an enemy" is pretty straightforward, and that doesn't necessarily mean "killing" said enemy (otherwise certain spells, namely Enchantment/Charm and Illusions would be pointless).
I interpret this to mean 'overcoming problems' in a broad sense, but your claim is that this is not the case. Hence, my frustration (and likely yours, in turn, so please bear with me). After all, there are so many listed spells that have been created with the explicit purpose of what may be deemed relatively 'mundane' uses. Here is but a brief list: Mending, Light, Unseen Servant, Tenser's Floating Disc, Cantrip, Leomund's Tiny Hut (or variations thereof), etc.
What I do agree is that the continuous, daily use of these spells shouldn't let a mage rack up the XP over the course of several weeks or months to shoot up levels even though at 50 XP/lvl it will plateau out at some point once you get to middle levels of experience.
About clerics and casting spells. I typically look to the portfolio of each Power (as written in the LGG) to determine if the cleric garners XP for the casting of spells to enforce and support the dogma of that Power. That is why I question why a cleric of Pelor, who is the God of Healing (among other things), would not earn XP for casting curative magic on people in need.
On everything else, though, you have my total agreement.
I guess it boils down to what is considered what the DMG says as "Overcoming a problem." The "defeating an enemy" is pretty straightforward, and that doesn't necessarily mean "killing" said enemy (otherwise certain spells, namely Enchantment/Charm and Illusions would be pointless).
Yes, if it runs away, it is defeated, for XP purposes.
Lanthorn wrote:
What I do agree is that the continuous, daily use of these spells shouldn't let a mage rack up the XP over the course of several weeks or months to shoot up levels even though at 50 XP/lvl it will plateau out at some point once you get to middle levels of experience.
As for "solving a problem", I've also used a house rule that spell use only qualifies if there was no other reasonable (I know, this can be a relative term) way to "solve the problem". Once, I was running a shipboard adventure, and of course, everyone on board needed fresh water. The priest was going to Create the water, but I had already pointed out they could buy barrels of fresh water in virtually any port town, so spell casting to get the water would be seen by the deity as "wasting' magic. "The deity you have chosen to worship actually has better things to do with his time than come running like a dog every time you want a drink of water."
Of course, if they'd been in a situation where just stopping in port to pick up another barrel or two of water would have been impossible, such as lost at sea with no known fresh water available, then of course full XP would have applied. But, I imagine the "Gods" might get a bit cranky if you call upon them just because you want to save a few coins.
About clerics and casting spells. I typically look to the portfolio of each Power (as written in the LGG) to determine if the cleric garners XP for the casting of spells to enforce and support the dogma of that Power. That is why I question why a cleric of Pelor, who is the God of Healing (among other things), would not earn XP for casting curative magic on people in need.
I think you are failing to make the distinction between a spell being "in character" for a faith, and a spell "furthering the cleric's ethos".
A cleric of Pelor casting healing spells doesn't earn XP simply because they worship a god of healing and are casting "in character" healing spells. A cleric of Pelor healing those who are actively pursuing the destruction of something Pelor abhors (or defending something Pelor values) *is* worth XP. The former is just the use of an "in character" spell. The latter is an example of a use that "furthers the cleric's ethos". Pelor does not have "Eradicating boo boos from the world!" as any sort of main goal. The goals of Pelor are much bigger than that.
Ask yourself what Pelor uses his Spheres of Influence to accomplish. What is his purpose, his main goal (s)? Whatever you decide it (them) to be, clerics casting spells in pursuit of said goal (s) will gain XP for them, but not for much else in most cases. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
If one wants to award XP to spellcasters who aren't actively adventuring, use story awards.
It's hard to take any of the XP tables in the DMG very seriously, because at the end of it all it basically says "use story awards to advance characters every four sessions or so." XP in 2E is hardly an exact science.
After ten years of pulling story awards out of my butt and tallying how many locks the thief picked and how many hit dice the fighter defeated, I realized it was all nonsense and that the original system, monsters + treasure + magic, is the most balanced and equitable. Sometimes I'll still give a story award or something extra, but it's best to think of the tables in the DMG as "suggested bonuses for outstanding role-playing."
Vestcoat, I still use the 1e DMG tables to calculate XP for defeating enemies. I do NOT like the 2e DMG method for that, but DO like the 2e method for giving XP for class-related actions (clerics and wizards get pts for casting spells, fighters for defeating foes, thieves for their skills, etc.). The only sticking point I have encountered deals with when to award, or not award, XP for spells cast.
Yes, I started to do the same thing with my PMEM game. It just turned out to be way too much of a hassle, so I went to the old school method of just monsters/treasure/magic. I then give a substantial bonus for successful completion of an adventure. Finally, I just give individual bonuses as I see fit, according to how I think the player did. I probably, no I DEFINITELY, give more exp this way than the players would have received by the book, but that's ok. It certainly is easier.
i don't want to give away xp but whats the point of being cheap. i give party xp with zero individual. like has been stated monster-treasure-magic divided by number of party. like ragnar i also give a little bonus. When the temple went down i gave a pretty generous bonus. i can't remember how much but i bet they do.
if it was all individual xp would the mu ever get a second spell?
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These are all 0 XP activities. Now if the thief goes out on the street and starts pickpocketing strangers, well, that's a different story altogether.
The goals of Pelor are much bigger than that.
