Been far too long since my last query, so I have one at long last, open to all editions and perspectives. It pertains to the 4 R's of clerical healing and necromancy (Raise Dead, Restoration, Regeneration, and Resurrection) and their limitations.
1) I see that (according to 2e at least), a character cannot be Raised if they exceed the limit allowed based on the power (level) of the casting cleric. In that case, I assume that the much more powerful Resurrection spell is needed. Ex: a 9th lvl priest can only Raise someone dead 9 days or less...
2) Furthermore, if a major organ or body part is missing, then the Raising of that character is pointless. For example, a character with a missing arm or leg CAN be Raised, but one with a missing heart, liver, or part of the head CANNOT.
If that is true, I assume that, again, the more powerful Resurrection spell is needed, as Regeneration CANNOT be cast on remains, ONLY a living character. Otherwise, a caster could Regenerate the missing parts of the corpse prior to Raising.
Additionally, I gather that the Raise Dead spell overcomes the effects of decay, including that which will reduce internal organs and the like to mush (or worse) so long as they are still, basically, present.
3) Resurrection takes a HEAVY toll on the caster, not only aging him/her, but ALSO preventing said priest from casting spells for one day per lvl of the Resurrected character.
That being said, are there spells or magical items (potions, for instance) that would allow the debilitated priest to recover more quickly after the casting of Resurrection?
Is it possible, to use a Heal or Restoration spell, for example, on the priest to nullify those effects?
What about something like a Potion of Vitality or somesuch equivalent?
thanks for your collective input, and Happy New Year!
Rules questions should go in the most appropriate of the Rules Systems Forums(that is what they are there for), not in the General Forums which are for discussion of things relating to Greyhawk. When multiple game editions will be the subject of a thread, put the thread in the rules forum that is the most pertinent to you; that will usually be the game edition that you are currently using in your games).
On to the questions:
1. Correct.
2. Correct on all accounts.
3. No. The gods exact their toll. What, did you think they would require a toll, but then allow for an easy way around it? A DM might allow a wish spell to counter these effects.
Well, actually there is a way around these negative effects(kind of)- using a rod/scroll of resurrection. The act of initially enchanting/imbueing the rod/scroll with its power will take it out of the cleric making them as described, but use of the rod/scroll thereafter will do nothing to whoever uses it, because the price has already been paid. Very valuable things such items are. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I see that I erred on where to post...typical "Lanthorn" mistake (my track record is about 50-50, it seems) That should be my New Year's resolution.
Thanks, Ceb, for your input. I wasn't sure if there was a way to mitigate the fatigue effects of the Resurrection or not, thinking that, perhaps, if another high-level cleric was 'on hand' to cast a Heal or Restoration spell, or if a Potion of Vitality or other potent libation was present, that this would at least help the debilitated cleric to recover faster. I figured that the Potion of Vitality would be a reasonable counter, as the aging still takes effect (though that can be countered by a Potion of Youth or Longevity).
Additional query: A cleric could fashion a spell scroll with the Resurrection spell on it (if they can cast the spell, they can pen it as a spell, too), said caster would not suffer the aging and debilitating effects. That said, of course, the cleric still needs some very special ingredients to fashion such a spell on 'paper.' Ideas???
As a sidenote, I cannot even imagine the 'drain' it takes to create a Rod of Resurrection!!! Surely it must be among the rarest, and most potent, of all magic items (and it cannot be recharged, either!).
For me to answer this question requires me to speak religiously and I have no desire to do that here.
Suffice it to say that you are correct in understanding the rules. But I disagree with the rules, because that's not the way it really works. And yes, you should expect all the atheists present on this site to immediately begin disagreeing.
But I have absolutely no interest in debating "religion" with them and this isn't the proper forum in which to do that anyway. Add to that: I don't do flame wars.
I see that I erred on where to post...typical "Lanthorn" mistake (my track record is about 50-50, it seems) That should be my New Year's resolution.
Additional query: A cleric could fashion a spell scroll with the Resurrection spell on it (if they can cast the spell, they can pen it as a spell, too), said caster would not suffer the aging and debilitating effects. That said, of course, the cleric still needs some very special ingredients to fashion such a spell on 'paper.' Ideas???
Lanthorn, Forum-daft
Lanthorn, Don't despair dude, I think I am "wrestling the "wrong place post from you" hehe
I do disagree on the scroll though.... but only slightly.. the cleric CREATING it will still be subject to the effects. It is certainly a good topic of conversation if the caster ( especially if they are not one and the same) would. An even further twist would be ... what if the creator and the caster were not worshiping the same divine intervention?
Again, that is from a IMC perspective.
Yes, that is correct. Perhaps my meaning wasn't clear enough. The making of the rod/scroll of resurrection will age + fatigue the creator. However, somebody who makes us of the items later on will suffer no ill effects. And that is, of course, why such items are so precious.
Something more interesting to consider is that, in most cases, such items that are captured can be used by whoever captures them. For instance, I am thinking that St. Cuthbert's usually happy-go-lucky demeanor just might become a tad bit disapproving if one of his high priests crafted a rod of resurrection and had it fall into the hands of a cleric if Iuz, who then used it to bring back to life multiple champions of evil. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:16 am; edited 1 time in total
Cebrion has given an accurate account of the rules, he's annoying that way.
However IMC only priests who worship gods of the dead can use Resurrection and Raise Dead spells. So the churches of Wee Jas and Nerull are needed to bring the dead back to life. While the gods of healing or life often frown upon such things as the price for such is a soul for a soul. Though in the case of Elves its a spirit for a spirit.
Interpret this how you will but remember Reincarnation is another option which is available to all nature deities and gods of healing life cycles. Once again in my campaign. However I will allow the PC to rearrange their ability scores or class and inform them they are a new being. Why is this different then creating a new character because one has glimpses of their former life and feels a kinship with their previous life acquaintances . Alignment can shift one category as well but they may still display some quirks or habits from their previous life as well.
In the end the ultimate decision is yours. Though I know you love your rules and that works as well.
Ceb's absolutely right about circumventing the price to pay for such casting.
IMO the 1st/2nd edition rules had this element of the game down to a tee. The later editions where you can get round the limitations of Raise Dead by casting a low-level preservation spell and complete removal of the aging for Resurrection were a travesty of what was always a pivotal moment of a campaign. 5000gp is not an interesting price to pay for bringing a soul back.
Reincarnation didn't happen in my 2e campaign but I always hoped it would one day as it throws up lots of interesting opportunities for a good player.
Thank you all for your replies. I think I have a workable solution, more or less, for HOW to resurrect my player's characters, but need to determine the exact 'price' they will pay for that religious honor. One of them most assuredly would be to negate the effects of the aging (via potion of longevity or elixir of youth).
Does anyone out there think that a Potion of Vitality (or perhaps another magic item or very powerful spell I've overlooked) would negate the debiliating effects caused by the casting of the Resurrection? The commonwealth answer seems to say, "So sorry, nope." I'm still riding the fence on that personally, but still appreciate everyone's input.
I would say that it does, though just 7 days worth of debilitation would be removed. One could use multiple potions.
Also, I agree that a potion of longevity(or even more than one) would be a part of the price of casting the spell. The price will be higher for resurrecting someone not of the cleric's faith, and even somebody of an allied faith will still be charged more than usual. Somebody that is neither a member of the faith, nor a member of an allied faith, will be charged more still. It is just to refuse resurrection at all if the person is not serving the casting clerics faith in some way either, and I don't mean in the way of going on a quest afterwards as part of the payment, but that the character is actively pursuing a course that is to the benefit to the cleric's faith in some way.
For example, a thief is killed towards the end of G3(in the GDQ series) by something heinous, and the party wants to resurrect him. The party doesn't really know what to do, the thief not really having worshiped any god. So they take his remains to either a cleric of some god who isn't really all that keen on evil giants in the first place, or they take the remains to the church of a benevolent god in the lands that are threatened by said giants.
In such circumstances the resurrection is more likely to be granted, but even then it should not equate to a simple business transaction, because it is much more than that. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:11 am; edited 1 time in total
Cebrion, I completely agree about how to rule the use of the Potion of Vitality on this issue (7 day removal). It is such a potent magical potion that I figured it should somehow reduce the debilitating effects from casting the Resurrection spell (also very potent).
Is there any spell you know of that mirrors the potency of the Potion of Vitality (Healing or Necromantic sphere)? Only Heal comes to mind, but upon reading the description of that spell, it doesn't seem to mitigate the impacts from utter exhaustion and fatigue...or does it? If not, is there any spell that does (Dispel Fatigue, perhaps, but it is only a 1st level spell, or Unfailing Endurace, a 4th lvl, but that doesn't nullify debilitation, only allows one to recover faster).
As for your suggestions about 'payment,' you and I are of like mind. I have some adventure/hook ideas, including those that require the PCs to go on a quest to further the goals and aims of the priesthood performing the Resurrection service, as well as (potentially) future actions and/or tasks to be done. Many of them may not even require the use of a weapon, either! Some of these characters have skills,abilities, and various contacts that would be most useful to assist the priesthood.
Thank you for your input, and I look forward to your answers.
Heal does nothing. As to other spells, there is a dispel fatigue spell in Players Options: Spells & Magic, though it obviously doesn't take into account the fatigue downside of casting resurrection, as dispel fatigue is a simple 1st level spell. The supposed energy sucking cost of casting such a powerful spell as resurrection can be nullified by a simple 1st level spell? Please...
The DM is responsible for setting limits on things, such as the use of such a spell and what it is capable of doing. If one doesn't, one might as well also allow the creation of a 2nd level restore youth spell, which "only" counteracts magical aging. Then there can be no ill effects at all, as the negative effects of one of the most powerful spells in the game can then be counteracted by low level spells that practically any priest can cast, and without having to resort to using a magical item(which requires a cost to make) to do so.
There should be a balance of effects in the game, rather than getting something for nothing(or nearly nothing), so I recommend not allowing a piddling 1st level spell to counteract a huge chunk of the negative effects of one of the most powerful spells in the game. To that end, if you do allow that 1st level spell into play, I would alter the resurrection spell's negative effects to be more about spiritual fatigue/cost rather than physical fatigue, such that the spell does nothing, or only removes maybe only a day of fatigue per casting(ans use a whole vial of blessed spring water which is effectively holy water, so costs 25 gp each). Minimal cost, but at least it is still cost. It doesn't remotely compare to needing two potions of vitality(the 1e cost of which would be 5,000 gp total)to more legitimately do the same thing though.
For me at least, the ultimate comparison is this: dispel fatigue gets rid of fatigue one might suffer from after a day of such over-exertion. That is not the sort of fatigue that is being suffered after casting a resurrection spell, so I would not have such a weak spell work at all in counteracting the negative effects. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I would agree with you about the relative minor effects of the Dispel Fatigue not making much, if any, of a dent into reducing the exhaustion caused by the much more intense Resurrection spell. Perhaps, as you mentioned, but a day removed, or a day per casting at best.
I would like your thoughts about the casting of the more powerful 4th lvl Unfailing Endurance spell. I was thinking that it would allow the exhausted character to recover at twice the rate normally permitted, thereby effectively halving the duration of fatigue from casting Resurrection.
Thank you again for your input. I look forward to your next response.
Rereading the resurrection spell, this isn't fatigue but a draining of some other kind. This isn't mere fatigue suffered from after marching all day for a week, or fighting all week long, but literally an affect that takes so much out of the caster that it is not just impossible to fight, but impossible to even cast a single spell(which is not a strenuous task at all). This is a full-on supernatural draining that magic designed to counter simple tiredness will do nothing for.
As such I will have to revise my statement about even the potion of vitality. I would allow none of these things to counter the negative affects of casting a resurrection spell. In retrospect, the only thing that I would allow to counter the effects would be the cleric's god taking a very direct hand in the matter, which would of course be beyond rare, and so would only occur for story telling purposes. If there were meant to be ways of getting around the negative effects of casting a resurrection spell, the spell description would mention them.
Call me harsh, or what you will. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
This, I believe, is crucial. In my BRP game I allow players to be creative with the effects of a spell as there are very few basic spells in the game. In D&D there are masses of spells all designed to do specific things and characters can have access to a high number of them; with this in mind I always stuck to the letter of the law as the spell is written. This works well because it imposes some checks and balances that are fairly subtle compared to the clumsy even handedness of later editions; the frankly ridiculous Gentle Repose springs immediately to mind.
Could a character attempt to develop a spell that can bypass the debilitating effects of a Resurrection? Maybe, but this would take a fair while and it sure as hell would be pretty high level one.
I really wouldn't tamper with things because once a player finds a way around the side effects of death then death has really lost its sting.
Thanks for your collective input. Whether I agree or not, I am always happy to hear folks' opinions and perspectives. Isn't that the whole point of this delightful site?
I guess I need to decide for myself how I perceive the debilitating effects of the Resurrection spell.
Also, in reponse to the mention that the 'spell description would mention them' (regarding how to reduce the penalty, that is, for casting the Resurrection spell), bear in mind that the Potion of Vitality was first introduced in Unearthed Arcana, while the 4th lvl spell, Unfailing Endurance, was introduced in the relatively recent Spells and Magic. Both come after the Player's Handbook, if memory serves, so there would be no mention of their effects with respect to that spell. (Ceb, this goes back to your great advice on my previous inquiry about the Border Ethereal and the whole phase door spider example you gave me).
Anyhow, I very much appreciate your replies. I agree there needs to be a balance. Even if I would allow a Potion of Vitality to reduce the penalties, such an item is not common, and thus not cheap, and that alone gives some balance. Imagine even trying to create one (I've got ideas on that).
Finally, here's an accessory question: Would you rule the same with respect to characters recovering from a Raise Dead spell (it states they need a day to recover for each day, or partial thereof, of death)? Just curious.
Also, in response to the mention that the 'spell description would mention them' (regarding how to reduce the penalty, that is, for casting the Resurrection spell), bear in mind that the Potion of Vitality was first introduced in Unearthed Arcana, while the 4th lvl spell, Unfailing Endurance, was introduced in the relatively recent Spells and Magic. Both come after the Player's Handbook, if memory serves, so there would be no mention of their effects with respect to that spell.
The Priest's Spell Compendiums 1-3, which comes after all of those, and contains all of the above spells, does not modify the resurrection spell description at all. It is word-for-word the same as it is in the PHB2e. Also, AD&D 2E comes out after Unearthed Arcana, and the DMG 2E also has the potion of vitality in it, yet no correlation is made between it and the resurrection spell description in the PHB 2E. Tome of magic similarly does not elaborate on any correlation between any of the spells it introduces that counter fatigue and the spell description for resurrection, nor does Players' Options: Spells & Magic.
It is an odd situation though; kind of being drained of energy yet also something like having barely survived a fatal experience. The caster is not injured, and not exactly tired from normal exertion either, and overall is completely defenseless. That's divine magic for you!
Hmm. I see an adventure kernel here.
The PCs are looking into rumors of agents of evil operating clandestinely in City X. In the process of doing so, they too late discover a plot to assassinate a local "living saint", a commoner seen to be particularly blessed of a particularly beneficent deity which just so happens to have a very powerful temple led by a very powerful priest in the city.
Too late to discover the plot to kill the living saint, the PCs instead stumble upon clues which lead them to suspect that the killing of the living saint is not the real target of the assassins at all. As it turns out, there are those within the church hierarchy that have long feared the "untimely death" of the living saint, and as such had a small, low-key detail of guardians assigned to protect the living saint(which failed).
Fortunately, the living saint was not killed in public, and there were no witnesses other than the living saint's guardians themselves(none of who were killed). An element within the temple hierarchy has convinced their high priest that it would be disastrous for the public to learn of the living saint's assassination, and so the high priest has been convinced to petition their god to resurrect the living saint; the common folk nary being the wiser.
And that is exactly what the assassins are counting on, for their true target is the high priest himself. Debilitated by the casting of the resurrection spell, the extremely powerful high priest will be powerless to defend himself.
Will the PCs put the pieces of the puzzle together in time to save the high priest? Will they have to force their way into the temple past guards thinking they are defending the high priest from the seemingly obvious threat of a bunch of armed PCs? Will they be able to discover the identity of any (perhaps unknowing)agents of evil among the church's followers who might seek to thwart the PCs at the final hour, or will the PCs be able to convince the temple guards that a deadly danger is already lurking with in the temple which seeks to take the life of their most holy leader.
An adventure for 5-8 characters of levels who the heck cares! I wanna DM it! _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
That's a pretty good adventuer idea, Cebrion, but the character levels would necessarily need to be low enough that none of them could cast Raise Dead or they could foil the entire plot by volunteering to cast it themselves. Also, none of the other temple priests could be high enough level to cast it. The High Priest could be the only possible choice.
You can't raise dead on a corpse with a severed/missing head/heart/other vial organ/etc. Levels could be anywhere from 3rd to 10th. I have always thought that levels 6-8 are some of the best levels to game at though- high enough to do some interesting things, but not so high as to be dealing with too many spells/critters that will kill a character outright. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:33 am; edited 1 time in total
Cebrion, you are a clever, devious one! I like that.
Neat adventure idea. I like the layers of intrigue and complexity.
Thanks for the timeline/publishing clarification. If anyone would know it, I figured you (or Rasgon) would!
Thanks again, everyone, for your posting. I will give it all due reflection and ponder at length.
much obliged,
-Lanthorn
Last edited by Lanthorn on Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:10 pm; edited 2 times in total
Rereading the resurrection spell, this isn't fatigue but a draining of some other kind. This isn't mere fatigue suffered from after marching all day for a week, or fighting all week long, but literally an affect that takes so much out of the caster that it is not just impossible to fight, but impossible to even cast a single spell(which is not a strenuous task at all). This is a full-on supernatural draining that magic designed to counter simple tiredness will do nothing for.
Agreed, I would treat this to be a Draining of the Life Spirit or Aura of the caster, and thus unaffected by "normal" fatigue recovery methods, as they are purely in support of the physical.
Cebrion wrote:
As such I will have to revise my statement about even the potion of vitality. I would allow none of these things to counter the negative affects of casting a resurrection spell. In retrospect, the only thing that I would allow to counter the effects would be the cleric's god taking a very direct hand in the matter
Call me harsh, or what you will.
And if the Deity were to do so, why would the not just simply do the task themselves?? Just save the "dual" effort of supplying the priest with the divine power and then "curing" the effects that the "absorption of the power creates on the spirit as it is channeled? I think not. I would add the priest involved would certainly view it as a high honor to "feel" that much divine power channeled through her in "service to her deity". It further supports the differences between the "frail mortal body" and the avatars sent in service.
And its not "harsh". It simply is.... As the great wizard "Newton"would add, the "third law" of the arcane and divine is action= reaction. The greater the power, the greater the effects the go with it. The channeling of such divine energies should come with a price, after all, creation of life is a power unto the gods. The FACT of side effect existence is what should make this rare & wondrous and why just not any divine caster would take the risk for just anyone.
Reincarnation didn't happen in my 2e campaign but I always hoped it would one day as it throws up lots of interesting opportunities for a good player.
I agree and have encouraged this, but most PCs are reluctant in its pursuit. But with the resurgence of my campaign with newer players, there has been some interest (since I do not support the "alternate race types' (ie half dragon, drow, etc) for PCs when generating a character in my campaign.
For instance, IMC I have a player that has a half orc barbarian that truly believes he is a paladin. This is caused from flashes /dreams from a "former life" being interpreted as "divine influences and suggestions" by the newly reincarnated 1/2 orc. This has led to some great opportunistic role play for the party. His on paper character is purely a 1/2 orc barbarian, but the persona is role played as a paladin in quest to right wrongs, protect the innocent, and spread the wonder of "Gimbus" which the 1/2 orc has interpreted to be the deity he "worships". Sadly, the reality is he misinterpreted a dream of his former self. He recalls being engulfed by a NIMBUS as the divine power surrounding him. When it was just the last surviving memory of his former life's demise. So when he encounters other's and begins to discuss the "wonder" of a deity that doesn't exist, it makes for some good fun. For as Krug would say, "if you have to see the wonder of Gimbus, you only have to wait for the next storm to know that he exists."
I, as a DM, am fortunate to have a very good player to do this unique role,by use of his roleplaying skills,and still keep it with in the "rule fences" for basic character types.
Instead of creating a new thread, adding to this one since my question pertains to the use of Raise Dead, Regeneration, and Heal.
If a person is slain by fire (toasted to a cinder), is a Raise Dead sufficient to restore them completely? The whole body (as much as is left) is present, after all, even though the soft tissues are burnt to nothingness. I am on the fence requiring a Resurrection spell to be used, though I can see that since the organs are reduced to crispy ash that perhaps the Raise Dead spell's effectiveness could be reduced (lowered chance of success), AND perhaps permanent scarring of the individual may result.
Regeneration, after all, does NOT work on wounds caused by acid or fire, so that is of no assistance. What about the Heal spell? Would that nullify the effects and scarring caused by death by fire or acid?
Dictionary definition of the word "whole" answers this for me;
in an unbroken or undamaged state; in one piece.
That rules out Raise Dead in the instance of a totally cremated body. If partially burnt then you can go with the "missing parts" section of the spell description.
Whilst not implicit within the description Heal would only work on persons still alive at the time of casting as it does not mention being effective on the dead; if it did it would be a good substitute for the aforementioned Raise Dead and you might get a debate about it being a surrogate Resurrection in some cases. I wouldn't want to open that door even a crack.
The only solution to your dead character's situation would be Resurrection for me.
During high level play an intelligent and completely nasty foe may well order fallen characters to be burnt to stave off the possibility of such a return. Or, may threaten to do so and demand payment of some kind to not carry it out.
Ragr, you are correct that healing spells (including the penultimate spell, Heal) work ONLY on the living.
Raise Dead must be powerful enough to take into account such factors as decay and rot wherein soft tissues disintegrate or the spell is a waste. The very minimum level to cast such a spell is 9th lvl, and thus a 9 day death period for that caster. In 9 days, at room temperature and humidity, a body will bloat and begin to putrify completely to a disgusting mess of goo. And this is just the beginning. At higher levels, priests can raise bodies that have been dead for longer periods of time and are thus at very advanced stages of decay. This causes me to wonder if incinerated bodies are not beyond the reach of this spell.
It's about the spell description, in 2e at least, stating that the "whole" of the body must be present for the spell to work. Following that to the letter I'd still rule an incinerated body could not be returned and a Resurrection would be required.
Of course, you could rule differently in your game as long as you kept it consistent from that point onwards.
For me, the specificity of the wording is a key pointer.
I agree with Ragr that a Raise Dead spell should not be capable of working on a body burned to the point that it is nearly ash.
Here is what I would suggest, just for fun.
Allow your player to attempt a Raise Dead on the body. Have the body return to life, but the spell isn't powerful enough to fully heal it. Much of the flesh is healed (as per your argument that bloated, decayed bodies may be safely returned to life), but it doesn't even have one hit point. Instead, it returns to life at -8 hit points and in unbelievable pain as much of the internal organs are still burned and incompletely healed. The reviving cleric must immediately cast Heal (or many lesser curative spells) in order to bring the PC up to full hit points or the body will die again in two rounds (-10 hp).
Remember, the Raise Dead spell only returns a body to life with a single hit point. That implies that the spell only heals a bloated, decayed body to the bare minimum necessary to sustain life. I think this would be an appropriate result for casting the spell on a body damaged so much more.
Also, if I recall correctly, a cleric casting Raise Dead must rest for a day, doing nothing else, after casting the spell. That means that a second cleric would need to be on hand to cast the curative spell(s) on the raised PC - making for even more fun consequences, if the player hadn't considered that possibility.
Allow your player to attempt a Raise Dead on the body. Have the body return to life, but the spell isn't powerful enough to fully heal it. Much of the flesh is healed (as per your argument that bloated, decayed bodies may be safely returned to life), but it doesn't even have one hit point. Instead, it returns to life at -8 hit points and in unbelievable pain as much of the internal organs are still burned and incompletely healed. The reviving cleric must immediately cast Heal (or many lesser curative spells) in order to bring the PC up to full hit points or the body will die again in two rounds (-10 hp).
Instead of creating a new thread, adding to this one since my question pertains to the use of Raise Dead, Regeneration, and Heal.
If a person is slain by fire (toasted to a cinder), is a Raise Dead sufficient to restore them completely? The whole body (as much as is left) is present, after all, even though the soft tissues are burnt to nothingness. I am on the fence requiring a Resurrection spell to be used, though I can see that since the organs are reduced to crispy ash that perhaps the Raise Dead spell's effectiveness could be reduced (lowered chance of success), AND perhaps permanent scarring of the individual may result.
The whole body is in no way present. A whole body is one with its parts there, not burned to ashes. Raise dead effectively restores life/function to the body and its parts. If something vital is not present, due to being cut out, burned away, disintegrated, etc., the raise dead spell fails. Ressurection is required in this case.
Quote:
Regeneration, after all, does NOT work on wounds caused by acid or fire, so that is of no assistance. What about the Heal spell? Would that nullify the effects and scarring caused by death by fire or acid?
No. Heal spells heal areas. As they do not restore missing material, I prefer that they leave scars. I view healing spells as a means of sped up healing, not as treating wounds as if they never existed. Scars are a result of the body healing itself after all. When healed with healing spells, clean cuts leave barely noticeable scars, while wounds that rip/rend flesh, such as those made by teeth and claws, do leave more noticeable scars even if healing spells are used. So do burns from acid/fire. Healing spells do not replace/regrow material, just seal and heal a wound, and so if a chunk of flesh is missing/burned away, there will surely be a scar, and perhaps a lack of function if the missing chunk was in an area that affects functionality. If some critter took a bite out of a character's upper arm like it was a chicken leg, such that the bicep was pretty much gone (likely the result of some in house critical hit system that crippled the arm), a dm could say that basic healing spells would not restore it. A heal spell will fix it though, as it will heal anything short of replacing a fully missing body part. Because of its power, you might have a heal spell leave no scar(s) at all.
Note that there is a big difference between how fire/acid damage is affected by an ongoing regeneration effect and the regenerate spell. For example...
Let's say that your dm uses a critical hit system in their campaign (because they are cool like that ), and some priest of Pyremius ends up chopping off your wizard's forearm with a flame blade. Your wizard's severed forearm conveniently fell into a magma pool, and was consumed. Shucks! Your wizard was wearing a ring of regeneration though, but the damage is from fire so the ongoing regeneration effect will not repair the damage. Hey, at least the wound is cauterized! Your wizard survives, and the arm stump eventually heals (or is healed by a healing spell). There is some bad scarring, as healing spells don't replace material, in this case skin (ergo lots of scarring), but at least he lives. The event has totally ruined the usefulness of his bracers of defense AC: 2, and he also has to deal with the conundrum of which of his two magic rings to wear most of the time. But he carries on, and gets back to adventuring. Eventually your wizard does some deed that leaves a high level priest indebted to him, so the wizard asks for a boon- a regeneration spell. This spell will regrow the missing limb in 2d4 turns (assuming the system shock survival roll is successful). Time to unpack those moth-balled bracers of defense, and slip on that second magic ring! Yay!
Also, a dead creature horribly burned by fire cannot be raised and then hit with a regenerate spell to regrow missing vital soft tissues, as those missing bits need to be present for the raise dead spell to work in the first place, and the regenerate spell cannot be used to first regrow that stuff because it only works on living things.
So, quit trying to finagle things ya rules fudger! _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
A person is killed by decapitation. The head is still present and could be placed on the corpse. Would a Raise Dead be sufficient to mend the body and restore life? If not, what means could be employed to make it thus, if any?
"Note that the body of the person must be
whole, or otherwise missii parts are still
missing when the person is brought back to
life.
Given that Regenerate is a 7th level spell to restore body parts to a living creature it would follow that only Resurrection could do the same, and bring someone back at the same time. The conditions in the wording of Raise Dead are there to maintain its status as a 5th level spell usable by a 9th level caster. You want the epic abilities, you have to be epic level.
Yeah, kinda thought it might not...and as Regenerate does not work on a corpse...
FYI: in my campaigns I've increased Raise Dead to a 6th lvl Necromantic spell and made Regenerate a 5th lvl spell for the reason that it made NO sense to me (and my primary player/DM) that restoring missing parts was "harder" than restoring life force to a dead body.
Given that, maybe a house rule alteration would permit the aforementioned situation...
Nope. Doesn't work. If any body part necessary to life is missing, or is unattached, the raise dead spells fails. There could very well be some sort of Frankenstein's Monster-ish Ravenloft spell which allows dead flesh to be attached to other dead flesh, which might then be followed up by raise dead spell. Or somebody could always do the spell research on such an effect. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I still have the old Greytalk post by Gregory Bernbath, High Level Mages and Priests of Greyhawk. It considers 14th level "High Level." Since that's what's needed for Ressurrection spell, I thought I'd bring this up. Being that this was posted in 1998, it is all 2nd ed (at best). Anyway, anything later than '98 is NOT included here. First, here's the list.
Canon Hazen (veluna) 21st level priest of Rao
Anfaren Silverbrow (Lendore Isle) 20th level priest of Sehanine
Larissen (Darmen Lands, Aerdy) 19th level priest of Zilchus
Agath of Thrunch (principality of Ulek) 19th level priest of Celestian
Lerrek (lich of the Vesve Forest) 19th level priest of Erythnul
Jerome Kazinskaia (Greyhawk) 19th level priest of Rao
Herzog Grenell (North Province) 18th level priest of Hextor
Althea (Molag) 18th level priestess of Iuz
Halga (Vesve/Dorakaa) 18th level priestess of Iuz
? (Druid/Troll in Greyhawk RuinsZ626) Druid
Jakar Whitewing (Valley of the Mage) Druid
General Pyrannden (Rauxes) 17th level priest of Hextor
Eclavdra (Dorakaa or other) 17th level priestess of Lolth (or EEG)
Ravel Dasinder (Greyhawk) 16th level priest of Boccob
Rillikandren (Rauxes) 16th level priest of Boccob
Immonara (Adri Forest) 16th level druid of Obad-Hai
Taralene (Grandwood/Lone Heath) 16th level priest of Atroa
? (Lich of Pits of Azak-Zil) 16th level
Arafeld (Nyrond) 16th level priest of Heironeous
Xargun, Caliph of Ekbir (Ekbir) 16th level priest of Istus?
Diraq malcinex (?) 16th level priest of Vecna
Garaeth Heldenster (Furyondy) 15th level priest of Heironeous
Calandryen (Vesve Forest) 15th level priest of Labelas Enorath
Durinken (Nyrond) 15th level priest of Rao
Censor Spidasa (Rauxes) 15th level priest of Hextor
Theocrat Ogon Tillit (Theocracy of the Pale) 15th level priest of Pholtus
Halldrem (North Province) 14th level priest of Hextor
Panshazek (Vesve Forest) 14th level priest of Iuz
Xenvelen (Vesve Forest) 14th level priest of Iuz
Grand Templar Ivanic Temzien (Nyrond) 14th level priest of Pholtus
Saran (Greyhawk) 14th level priest of Pelor
Reynard Yargrove (Dreadwood Forest) 14th level Druid of Obad-Hai
Charinida (Erelhei-Cinlu) 14th level priestess of Lolth
Vazirian the Hierarch (Horned Society) 14th level priest of Asmodeus
Keoghtom (?) 14th level priest of ?
Johanna (Almor ?) 14th level priestess of Boccob
So, the question I have from this list is, from WHOM can players even receive a Ressurrection spell? Some are evil, so forget it. Some are in very difficult places to reach. Some don't have access to the correct spheres. So, here's what I think:
That's a terribly small list! I don't have any clue how many 9th to 13th level priests there are, but they could do Raise Dead. I'd still think it's not a very large number. However, you could probably throw around a lot of priest of this level, at least in large towns/cities. Still, the access to high level healing MUST be pretty limited.
I have made my campaign one in which such healing is VERY HARD TO COME BY! I did this intentionally, to try and get my players to be smarter, knowing they can't just go to the nearest temple, spend some gold, and get raised. They are all either spoiled by the old Baldur's Gate style PC gaming, or from the 3rd ed and later ease of buying spells everywhere. However, I never really considered that the Greyhawk Canon pretty much backs up this decision. There just aren't very many people from whom one could get 7th level healing spells. Of those, these are almost all the equivalent of going to see the Pope. Well, except they really CAN raise the dead! Anyway, it should clearly NOT be an easy thing to get raised. I would expect all of these NPCs to have strict requirements met before doing it, and maybe quests or such as well.
Those are just some of "the greatest hits", not the leaders of all of the faiths. There are many, many more high level clerics than that in different centers of worship throughout the Flanaess. Granted, there aren't flocks of them roaming about, but that isn't "The List" by any means. Still, there being such a high level cleric on hand doesn't guarantee in any way that they will be amenable to casting a resurrection spell for anyone but a champion of their own faith. Even champions of the faith stay dead most of the time, just as most heroes do. The casting of such a spell is not going to be any sort of normal transaction either. It will be an event, with repercussions. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
That's true, it's not a complete list, by any means, and DMs can do what they want anyway. However, if we consider this list, which is the only Canon list available, as a starting point, we can't really go wrong. :)
One thing I note is these are all very high leaders, both religiously and politically. Seriously, getting help from them would be like pettioning the Pope or a Caliph or something like that. Not really the kind of thing you can do by just strolling into some temple and forking over 7K gp. Of course, that's what my players always want! LOL
Anyway, if we expand this list, I imagine other figures of like level should also be of like position. That said, how does all this apply to the 4 R's: Raise Dead, Restoration, Regeneration, and Resurrection?
Raise Dead could be easier to come by, requiring only a 9th level priest. Honestly, I look at that often like Miracle Max in the Princess Bride.
Miracle Max: "Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do."
Inigo Montoya: "What's that?"
Miracle Max: "Go through his clothes and look for loose change."
But seriously, I do actually see it this way. Raise Dead works because people are only "mostly" dead. Thus, it's not quite as big a deal, and because it's a 5th level spell, it doesn't exactly call upon the deity itself for assistance. I think in the old-school rulings, which still applied in 2nd ed I believe, this worked through some intermediary? Anyway, point is it's a lower level of miracle, and not as likely to require more than say a minor quest or payment.
Regeneration, Restoration, and Ressurection, all being 7th level, still remain extremely rare and difficult to gain. Not impossible, but as Cebrion said, "it will be an event, with repercussions."
In my campaigns, I made Raise Dead a 6th lvl Necromantic spell and Regenerate but a 5th lvl Healing spell. Not sure offhand what I did to Restoration but think that I lowered it to 5th lvl Necromantic (I need to check my books where I made the house rule adjustments), but kept Resurrection at 7th lvl Necromantic.
If you glance at PHB, Tome of Magic, and Spells & Magic books you will notice that these spells, as well as some like Cure Disease and Cure Blindness/Deafness keep getting moved between the Healing and Necromantic Spheres. I found it annoying, but with so many hands in the proverbial cookie jar of authorship, it is bound to happen.
I flipped through all those books (mentioned above) and started adding some to other Spheres as I saw fit. A few I changed their levels (not many, mind you) by comparing their effects to other, closely related spells and deciding where they "properly" fit.
Don't forget the Complete Guide to Necromancers, either, as there are some great spells in that book, too, though many are the domain of malevolent intent.
I will probably have to lower Restoration, since I have changed Level Drains to not be permanent. Either that or I just go back to normal Level Drains or make some other change.
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A DM 
That should be my New Year's resolution.
I'm still riding the fence on that personally, but still appreciate everyone's input.
