A powerful cleric of Heironeous feels that they aren't doing enough to prove their faith to their deity. They are so lawful and so good, that they should do more than the followers of other deities in their daily lives. Therefore, under something that he thinks is a divine inspiration, but is in fact a some sort of psychotic break that leads him to see hallusinations, he "discovers" a set of precepts of a good and lawful life. He writes them down and prays to Heironeous, who doesn't really care about the whole thing: they mean nothing to him. The cleric feels that Heironeous has blessed him, and the Archpaladin lets him feel that way if he wants to see it like that. He has better things to do and the precepts don't violate his tenents.
The cleric amasses a huge amount of followers and they all follow his way. The cleric welcomes worshippers of Pelor and Mayaheine as long as they follow the precepts, and these followers form their own sects.
The rules are:
- 5-minute prayer at noons.
- The follower must frequently say: "If (deity) wills."
- Forbiddance to draw an image of Heironeous, Pelor or Mayaheine.
- Apostasy is punishable by death (Pelor only allows the imprisonment of such individuals).
- If three important clerics of the three deities make a declaration, everyone must follow it, especially if it's a call to war.
- Women cover their heads in the presence of adult males outside of their immediate family.
- Men never shave.
- Abstention from sexual relations outside of opposite-sex marriage.
- Polygamy is allowed and encouraged (This makes the cult grow fast).
The members of the cult, especially if player characters, will be protected and well provided for at all times, especially with divine magic.
What do you think? Could this make a good theme for an article?
A powerful cleric of Heironeous feels that they aren't doing enough to prove their faith to their deity...
The cleric amasses a huge amount of followers and they all follow his way. The cleric welcomes worshippers of Pelor and Mayaheine as long as they follow the precepts, and these followers form their own sects.
The rules are:
- 5-minute prayer at noons.
- The follower must frequently say: "If (deity) wills."
- Forbiddance to draw an image of Heironeous, Pelor or Mayaheine.
- Apostasy is punishable by death (Pelor only allows the imprisonment of such individuals).
- If three important clerics of the three deities make a declaration, everyone must follow it, especially if it's a call to war.
- Women cover their heads in the presence of adult males outside of their immediate family.
- Men never shave.
- Abstention from sexual relations outside of opposite-sex marriage.
- Polygamy is allowed and encouraged (This makes the cult grow fast)...
It is so different from my take on religion in GH that I would not use it.
But that does not mean it is bad.
Some questions:
Prohibition on drawing images of the three gods perplexes me.
Why are drawings forbidden? (I assume that paintings, statues, and other images are still made and venerated. )
Taboos are not normally random things. There should be a reason.
Where do beards and polygamy come from? These seem more like cultural traits without any special connection to any of the three gods. Are these things features of the founder's culture?
How does polygamy make the new religion popular? With whom?
I don't get that part.
I imagine the veiling comes from a specific cultural background , too.
What is apostasy in the context of a polytheistic system? Why are LG gods giving spells to clerics who kill other LG people
simply for leaving this new religious group?That seems rather counterproductive of lawful and good ends.
Or, given the scare quotes around ''discovers'' is this supposed to be an absurdist LG religion? Crazy cleric is crazy and just made up rules at random?
It seems to me that you've combined some rather negative aspects of some real-world religions to make a fantasy religion that is neither logical, nor Lawful Good.
First, I don't see any of those LG deities supporting polygamy, since it weakens the community as a whole. Especially Mayaheine. Since other aspects of your fantasy religion treat women as second-class citizens, I don't expect polygamy to work both ways, so there is really no reason why Mayaheine would give any support whatsoever to this cult.
Second, disagreement over beliefs being punishable by death is Lawful Neutral, closing in on Lawful Evil. That is Pholtus of the Blinding Light/The Theocracy of the Pale type of stuff, not LG Heironeous, Mayaheine, Pelor.
Insisting that everyone obey the edicts of three agreeing leaders of the church automatically makes it a controlling cult. Again, it may be very lawful, but it isn't good any more. I don't believe those three gods would tolerate such a corruption of their tenets, especially when that cult is specifically recruiting its members from their respective churches. I believe they would be most likely to send forces to eradicate such apostasy before it created another Pale.
I suggest you rethink the plan. Make it more organized, if you want the gods to support it and make sure it is both lawful and good (to both sexes). If you want it to be a crazy man's idea, go with the cult theme and drop the support of those gods. Have an Arch devil take an interest in, or be the instigator of, the visions and provide the spells discreetly. Those three gods would then be keen to quash the cult, asap.
My main question is what is going on culturally/politically that makes this reactionary version of Heironeous's faith appealing? Regardless of the initial inspiration, whether a psychotic break or genuine revelation from Heironeous, one of his servants, or perhaps a malevolent devil posing as one of Heironeous's servants, there has to be a reason people decide to go along with it. Perhaps they've recently suffered travails that make them think they're being punished by the gods for being overly liberal in their interpretation of scripture. People displaced after the sacking of Almor might be especially likely to be attracted to a hardline version of their faith, or perhaps they could be Shieldlanders dispossessed by the Horned Society, Geoffites displaced by the giants, etc.
Last edited by rasgon on Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
And I don't see anything else on the list that makes women "second class." Even if I did, I don't see how that would have any bearing on alignment. Who says LG cultures don't have well defined sex roles, codes of modesty, etc?
It's sort of like saying LG societies cannot be ruled by hereditary aristocrats because that would make the common people ''second class." Or that LG rulers cannot create sumptuary laws.
That is not to say I am complaining about the comments, Six Xaris. Never. Just expressing a different take on things. YMMav as ever.
EDIT And I note you specified 'those LG deities'', not "any LG deities."
And, on a lighter note, why no sympathy for the poor men forced to grow beards and put up with multiple wives? :)
RE killing apostates
That does seem pretty extreme for LG. I don't get why it is included, or why these deities put up with it.
But Sutemi's Heironeous seems to be a somewhat distant deity. It may be he's really busy smashing demons with his holy axe, and does not pay much attention to what mortals are doing.
If the sect is supposed to bring a comic element to the setting, I think the tenets and customs should be goofier. Like that Pholtus sect whose adherents wear horse blinders.
Last edited by CombatMedic on Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:40 pm; edited 4 times in total
My main question is what is going on culturally/politically that makes this reactionary version of Heironeous's faith appealing? Regardless of the initial inspiration, whether a psychotic break or genuine revelation from Heironeous, one of his servants, or perhaps a malevolent devil posing as one of Heironeous's servants, there has to be a reason people decide to go along with it. Perhaps they've recently suffered trevails that make them think they're being punished by the gods for being overly liberal in their interpretation of scripture. People displaced after the sacking of Almor might be especially likely to be attracted to a hardline version of their faith, or perhaps they could be Shieldlanders dispossessed by the Horned Society, Geoffites displaced by the giants, etc.
Another possibility is that it was founded by a Heironean lumberjack-priest who had a bushel of ugly daughters and one good looking one.
He announced that polygamy was the divine rule so he could convince a PC/stupid hero to marry ALL the daughters. He veiled the ugly daughters to hide them until the wedding. A garbled account of that by the PC/dumb champion guy has inspired the head covering custom for women in the cult.
The lumber cleric imposed beardliness because he is a lumberjack with a mighty beard, and sees Heironeous the same way.
MAY THE AXE GROW GREAT!
Killing for apostasy is the unfortunate result of the crazy lumberjack's hatred of drawing. To him, writing that can be erased is drawing. He hates pencils and loves pens. Absolutely refuses to use a hornbook and stylus. Drawing!
It was his worst subject in cleric school, as a wee bearded lad.
(Classmates teased him, saying his father was a dwarf).
He messed up and wrote ''killing"' instead of ''kicking.''
As in ritual kicking of mud, a common practice in his isolated, inbred clan.
Drawing the gods is bad. Carving them out of wood with an axe is great!
Mayaheine has a big bonnet and an axe to boot.
Prayers are at noon because that is when sunstroke hit this guy in a clear cut zone and he began having his visions. The copious amounts of hard cider had nothing to do with it.
So basically a caricature of Islam, with polytheism nominally a part of it.
A cult like this, that inflicts capital punishment on members for apostasy and perhaps other crimes is going to run afoul of the state pretty quickly, unless it subverts and takes control of the state. Its one thing for members of a religious sect to shun each other or call a backslider names, another to usurp the state's (feudal lord/lord mayor/king) capital authority. Also, the ability to declare "Oerth-jihad" is a second threat to any other power structure.
Let us assume Heironeous is too busy to take note of this. Would Pelor or Mayaheine be so ambivalent as well? How does the cult work and play with other religions? Does it even acknowledge their legitimacy?
Prohibition on drawing images of the three gods perplexes me.
Why are drawings forbidden? (I assume that paintings, statues, and other images are still made and venerated. )
Taboos are not normally random things. There should be a reason.
It was a part of his divine vision.
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Where do beards and polygamy come from? These seem more like cultural traits without any special connection to any of the three gods. Are these things features of the founder's culture?
Also a part of the divine vision. Don't question it!!!! :D
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How does polygamy make the new religion popular? With whom?
A very small minority of every kingdom would like to have polygamy, but it's not allowed or accepted. When this cult came up, those people even converted to Heironeous&Co just to have polygamy and get together with people who share their views. Despite being a very small minority, it's still a big boost for the faith of three deities.
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I imagine the veiling comes from a specific cultural background , too.
Vision. Always the vision. The Vision.
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What is apostasy in the context of a polytheistic system? Why are LG gods giving spells to clerics who kill other LG people
simply for leaving this new religious group?That seems rather counterproductive of lawful and good ends.
Ok, I'm actually going to ditch the whole apostasy part. I have second thoughts about the whole issue.
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Or, given the scare quotes around ''discovers'' is this supposed to be an absurdist LG religion? Crazy cleric is crazy and just made up rules at random?
Yes, but in my view, it shouldn't be that obvious in the game.
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My main question is what is going on culturally/politically that makes this reactionary version of Heironeous's faith appealing?
Simple. The cleric manages to sell the idea that they, the obedient and good people, must lead a strict life. They don't have enough rules in their daily lives. The cleric comes with all these rules and tells them that they have the chance to prove their loyalty to their god(s). It's a massive hit. How can you NOT go to Heironeous after following so many rules?
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RE polygamy and other customs
I don't see what this has to do with alignment.
CombatMedic already said everything that I was going to say and he said it better than I would've said.
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RE killing apostates
That does seem pretty extreme for LG. I don't get why it is included, or why these deities put up with it.
Yeah, I'm going to ditch that part.
[quote]Also, the ability to declare "Oerth-jihad" is a second threat to any other power structure.
Let us assume Heironeous is too busy to take note of this. Would Pelor or Mayaheine be so ambivalent as well? How does the cult work and play with other religions? Does it even acknowledge their legitimacy?[quote]
It's a militant cult. What are governments going to do with militant cults? There's a chance to have some conflict in the game and get players involved. This is supposed to be full of conflict, that's the idea :) I guess the cult should get along with other religions, but just barely, because there are so many. I don't want this cult to be destroyed (too fast). Pelor and Mayaheine are going to tolerate this because it doesn't actually violate their tenets. It's not that good what they are doing, but it's not a violating against their deities. The gods should give a bit of a leeway to their followers for self-expression. Not too much, of course! I don't want to go too far with this. That's why I'm going to forget the whole apostasy thing.
Yea...I was kinda suggesting the David Koresh might be a little out there. But hey, there is always Jim Jones. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
I understand it perfectly that some, if not most, of you feel that this is not something that Heironeous, Pelor or Mayaheine would endorse. It's perfectly reasonable to have the clergies and worshipers serve their deities in an ideal way that the deities want.
But I'm going to ask this:
Why not have imperfect worship? Maybe the gods don't control their worship that much. Do they really care if there's a cult with weird ideas? What if instead of controlling gods who have just the perfect clergies we have mysterious gods that are busy with other things than some minor cult that doesn't really violate the specific tenets of the faith. Has Heironeous ever said anything about polygamy or large beards? If not, then why can't the followers decide these things and the gods don't interfere with the schisms among followers?
I don't think Heiroenous has to dictate all the exact customs and traditions he wants his worshippers everywhere on the Oerth to follow, down to facial hair and headgear.
There is room for variation, IMO.
I would suggest that you write up the sect. If readers like it, they may adopt it for their home games. If not, they are under no obligation to use it.
You aren't going to please all GH fans. TSR/WotC could not do that.
;)
I do hope that my feedback has been helpful.
I don't think Heiroenous has to dictate all the exact customs and traditions he wants his worshippers everywhere on the Oerth to follow, down to facial hair and headgear.
There is room for variation, IMO.
I would suggest that you write up the sect. If readers like it, they may adopt it for their home games. If not, they are under no obligation to use it.
You aren't going to please all GH fans. TSR/WotC could not do that.
;)
I do hope that my feedback has been helpful.
Thank you One of the reasons for this threads is to map what is reasonable and what is not. For instance, the apostasy part was too much, definitely.
So basically a caricature of Islam, with polytheism nominally a part of it.
This is how I read it and not something I would mess around with. If you're 100% sure your players can get on board with this in the game then it's your world and go for it.
Personally, I think this risks blurring the game world / real world line a little too much and I would avoid.
The parts I like about this are the idea of a reactionary branch of the church of Heironeous and that there are multiple deities associated with the faith.
Sutemi wrote:
- The follower must frequently say: "If (deity) wills."
This is a bit vague to be a divine commandment (how often is "frequently?"). I can see three different interpretations of what this entails.
1. It could be just a rote phrase without any greater theological implications, the equivalent of "goodbye." Someone says, "Have a nice day," you answer "If Pelor (or whoever) wills it," both of you smile and you leave, end of story. At most, it's a shibboleth that helps the faithful identify each other.
2. The expression could be meant literally, but reserved for a deity's commonly understood spheres of influence. That is, you only say "if Pelor wills it" if the object is something to do with sun, light, strength, and healing, and you only say "if Heironeous wills it" if the object is something to do with chivalry, justice, honor, war, daring, and valor. So if someone says "I hope you get over your cold soon," the correct answer is "If Pelor wills it" because Pelor is god of healing. If someone says "I hope it gets warmer out" you can say "If Pelor wills it" because Pelor influences the sun. If someone says "I trust you'll be found innocent at your trial" then a proper response is "If Heironeous wills it" because Heironeous is god of justice, but Mayaheine is a deity of justice too, so you can say "If Mayaheine wills it" if you prefer. If someone says "This plow will be your finest work yet," you can't really credit the will of any of those gods, because though Pelor has influence over agriculture none of them are really patrons of blacksmithing.
3. Or alternatively, this cult has a wildly divergent interpretation of one or more of these gods and seriously believes all things are the product of their god's or gods' will. This implies a deterministic world view (everything is predestined by the will of the divine) and also that at least one of these gods created the universe. It also implies that eschatology, the study of the end times, is a big part of the cult, because the end of universe has also already been decided.
It makes a big difference if all members of this cult agree on which god wills what, or if there are actually three sects who each believe a different god is responsible for willing all things into being. If some people think Pelor wills all and some people think Heironeous wills all, the two sects might come into violent conflict. If people think the recently ascended demigoddess Mayaheine wills everything, do they acknowledge she only became a demigoddess during the Greyhawk Wars and, if so, who willed everything into being before Mayaheine's ascension? Perhaps history is an illusion and the universe was actually created in 582 CY.
Why just these three gods? Mayaheine is a servant of Pelor and Pelor and Heironeous are allied (in some sources), but Pelor and Rao and Rao and Zilchus are allied, too, so in theory those gods could be added to the cult. If cultists don't actually believe that Pelor, Heironeous, and Mayaheine are responsible for all events, they might also have cause to worship other gods. For example, Procan might be necessary for sailors and Bleredd for blacksmiths.
It might be a good idea to create a unique creation myth to explain why the cultists believe that these three gods are the most important. and cults tend to go well with doomsday prophecies, so it might be a good idea to come up with an apocalypse in which these three gods play prominent roles.
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- If three important clerics of the three deities make a declaration, everyone must follow it, especially if it's a call to war.
What if different sets of clerics make contradictory declarations? For example, three clerics declare war against the Great Kingdom while three other clerics declare that peace must be maintained. Who wins?
CombatMedic wrote:
Prohibition on drawing images of the three gods perplexes me.
Why are drawings forbidden? (I assume that paintings, statues, and other images are still made and venerated. )
It's probably safe to assume this is a blanket prohibition against representing the divine, regardless of the medium, like that among the Iconoclasts in the Orthodox Church. In real life, this sort of prohibition dates back to the Jewish commandment against worshiping graven images. In the Flanaess, it might make sense if theologians maintained that the gods didn't have humanoid forms, but were instead beings of pure alignment energy. A darker explanation might be that some nonhuman intelligence (for example, an aboleth) inspired the cult, and the nonhuman being objected to portraying the gods as humans because it had some radically nonhumanoid form itself.
CombatMedic wrote:
How does polygamy make the new religion popular? With whom?
I don't get that part.
Maybe this is a "Craster's Keep" situation, with a single patriarch and his many wives breeding as many new parishioners as possible.
CombatMedic wrote:
What is apostasy in the context of a polytheistic system?
It's one thing if someone, in our world, says "You have abandoned your faith, therefore you are evil" and it's another thing to do so in a world where literal gods of evil exist. On Oerth, apostasy might look like a more minor sin in comparison to openly worshiping Hextor or Nerull, depending on your point of view. On the other hand, it's possible that worshiping an evil god could be seen as a lesser sin than worshiping no god at all, especially if the followers of evil gods don't consider themselves to be evil (and in fact, they might not be; if there can be lawful neutral followers of Heironeous, there can be lawful neutral followers of Hextor).
SirXaris wrote:
Second, disagreement over beliefs being punishable by death is Lawful Neutral, closing in on Lawful Evil. That is Pholtus of the Blinding Light/The Theocracy of the Pale type of stuff, not LG Heironeous, Mayaheine, Pelor.
Keep in mind that some editions of D&D allow clerics to have alignments that differ from their divine patrons. In 3rd edition they can vary only by one step (so there could be lawful neutral clerics of Heironeous), but 1st edition sometimes allowed even more extreme variation (for example, chaotic evil clerics of Kord were allowed). In 2nd edition, clerics of Heironeous had to be lawful good, but 1st edition allowed lawful neutral and neutral good worshipers of Heironeous.
Sutemi wrote:
Also a part of the divine vision. Don't question it!!!! :D
I think even if the cult's founder chooses not to question or explain the new rules, other theologians will have the job of doing so. If it's a cult purely based on the charisma of one person, they might be able to rely on the founder's charisma to avoid any questions, but if the faith takes on a life of its own, some more explanation is required if the faith is going to spread by any means other than accelerated reproduction.
In general, I don't find "the cult's founder is mentally ill" to be a satisfying explanation; even mentally ill people have some sort of logic for the decisions they make. I'd rather the list of rules had some foundation in existing lore (whether official or DM-created).
For example, Bastion of Faith mentions rituals called the Tests of Valor that clerics have to pass before advancing in level. They're revealed through prayer and divinely inspired visions, and they allow clerics to prove their honor, bravery, and sense of justice. This seems like the thing that would make a lot of sense to expand for those worshipers of Heironeous who hunger for more structure in their lives. A powerful cleric might pray for a vision of Tests of Valor that all worshipers must undergo, not just clerics, and they might include things like fasting, tests of endurance, and charitable donations that everyone is expected to complete.
Rasgon, that"Craster's Keep'" take on it could mesh with my crazy lumberjack suggestion.
Who does not love creepy inbred cultists in the back country?
I read "no drawing" as meaning specifically no drawings allowed, and not a ban on all man made images.
If I am not confused, I think Sutemi has confirmed that it is specifically a ban on drawings and not on all images.
If it is just a broad ban on man made images of these gods, then I think your " pure alignment" suggestion might be the best idea to explain it.
I wonder if that means that the cultists refuse to believe that avatars exist? Maybe they consider those to be constructs or possessed mortals or something?
Pelor is the source of all light and life and power. He came into being before any other beings of power, born when the sun's light first burned in the primal darkness of Oerth's Crystal sphere.
Mayaheine is his chosen servant, born a mortal on another world and sent to Oerth to guide and protect the people.
Other gods of Oerth are shadows cast by Pelor's light. When the sunlight strikes things, the shadows may grow bigger than the things. Light struck a murderer , millenial ago, and that murderer's shadow grew into Nerull.
Light struck a mighty hero and that hero's shadow became Kord.
Etc, etc.
The shadows have taken on lives of their own, but if the things they represent were ever banished or destroyed, they would fade away, replaced by Pelor's light.
Eliminating evil thoughts and deeds from your life weakens the evil god-shadows.
Pholtus is an exception, though. He is the reflection of the sun, a two dimensional image of Pelor . This is why he wrongly thinks himself the only true power (according to this variant sect, which bases its opinion on the prevailing views in The Pale, and assumes that the god Pholtus agrees with those followers of his).
(Much of this could be flipped around and used instead for Pholtus, if one is not interested in a new cult that involves Pelor and Mayaheine. For the Pholtan variant, the ascended mortal brought from another world could be Saint Cuthbert. But the apotheosis erased much of the saint's memory and drove him a bit loco. So the official Pholtan position is that Cuthbert means well, but is misguided and confused. The Pholtans do not think their god is omnipotent or omniscient. They just think he is the source or light and that almost all the other gods are shadows cast by him. I suppose Pelor becomes a reflection, or something infused with a portion of the divine radiance and cast off. Maybe a construct taken on a life of its own?)
-Not a caricature, really. Thus my initial observations in the post above.
tarelton wrote:
...A cult like this, that inflicts capital punishment on members for apostasy and perhaps other crimes is going to run afoul of the state pretty quickly, unless it subverts and takes control of the state...
-One decent sized town would do, initially.
SirXaris wrote:
It seems to me that you've combined some rather negative aspects of some real-world religions to make a fantasy religion that is neither logical...
...hmmm... religion has to be logical?
rasgon wrote:
My main question is what is going on culturally/politically that makes this reactionary version of Heironeous's faith appealing? ...there has to be a reason people decide to go along with it...
-The reason they believe it is because they believe it. It's called "faith."
CombatMedic wrote:
RE polygamy and other customs
I don't see what this has to do with alignment...
-The premise is that polygamy would be not-Lawful and not Good. I can think of plenty of polygamous societies that are Lawful, and could probably be considered Good, at least here and there.
CombatMedic wrote:
...RE killing apostates
That does seem pretty extreme for LG...
-Sutemi seems to have already jettisoned this, but I seem to remember a discussion of Veluna's brutal handling of heretics or something of the sort, but there seemed to be canonical support for it. I think the discussion was with Mystic Scholar, and Rasgon confirmed it? Anyway, LG can still be harsh in the Flanaess, so if you really wanted to go with it, it would probably fit.
James, I think someone (not me) said something about that in regards to the adventure "Hopeful Dawn" in Dungeon #41, but checking it the worst punishment I see written is a thief getting branded and exiled. Another character was imprisoned for not being able to pay church taxes. The worst thing about Veluna City is the dreadful ghetto that the officials walled off rather than doing anything to improve. Velunites disapprove of heretics, but I don't think it's actually illegal. An NPC cleric assumes the PCs are probably heretical, but his reaction is to preach at them, not to try to arrest them. The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer had a man burned to death for impersonating Prince Thrommel (assuming he wasn't actually Prince Thrommel), but I don't think that was officially sanctioned.
I could see something like this more as a twisted version of the established cult(s) of an existing god, similar to what I understand the case to be with the Pholtan theocracy in the Bandit Kingdom of Dimre, although I admit I might no have the full lowdown on it.
EDIT: Also, polygamy seems to be a hallmark of small, breakaway religious cults, usually seeming to have more to do with the leaders realizing, "Hey! I can do whatever I want! Bring me all the wimmen!!!" than any particular doctrinal reasoning.
"I think Veluna is probably a less religiously-tolerant society than often imagined. Reading through the Dungeon #41 adventure, "Hopeful Dawn," one can find quite a few examples of harsh rhetoric.
For example, in the Raoan faith, Dark Night is known as the Night of Hopeful Judgment, a night in which “Rao shall cleanse the world” by consigning “the unholy to an eternity of suffering.”
Also, the Velunese legal system calls for punishments such as facial branding for thievery and imprisonment for blasphemy, and poor farmers who don't pay the required church taxes might end up dying in prison, even if their excuse is that the harvest was bad (again, see "Hopeful Dawn")."
Who are the Velunese authorities intolerant towards? Evil cultists?
Witches who practice black magic?
People in an evil society could be very tolerant. They might raise no moral objections to ritual religious murder, ruthless profiteering from narcotics,trafficking and exploitation/ abuse of foreign women and children, demon summoning, tossing unwanted babies into gray ooze recycling vats, and so on.
Well, the adventure in question says, "Eventually, the PCs are approached by Joshua, a priest of Rao. Although he attempts to be polite, he views the PCs as possibly heretical because they are not members of his order."
Which suggests to me that:
1. The bar for heresy is very low, i.e., you're possibly a heretic just because you're not a priest in the Velunan church of Rao.
2. Low-level heresy is not that big a deal, i.e., Joshua is attempting to be polite rather than calling for the city guard.
I don't doubt that someone might be imprisoned for sacrificing children to Nerull, of course, but I can't find any suggestion in the adventure that blasphemy itself, as opposed to blasphemy that involves some other obvious crime, is worthy of imprisonment. It's possible I've missed something, though I've read through it four times now.
There are harsh punishments against thieves, muggers, and tax evaders, but that's separate from the question of religious tolerance.
I think the part about Rao "consigning the unholy to an eternity of suffering" just means that evil souls go to the Lower Planes when they die. However, Joshua seems to think the PCs will be damned just for not accepting the tenets of the Word of Incarum, the Velunese holy book that credits Rao with joining the heavens to the Oerth, placing the sun and moons in the sky, single-handedly banishing Tharizdun, and someday eliminating evil to create a hundred-year paradise on Oerth. He says "Renounce your false gods," though I'm not sure he considers every god other than Rao to be false. Tharizdun, at least, seems to be real. Other sources have Rao on very good terms with Delleb, St. Cuthbert, Pelor, and Zilchus. I suppose it's a matter of interpretation.
I can't imagine someone being imprisoned in Veluna for worshiping, say, Heironeous, and I think you could be a worshiper of Pelor, Heironeous, St. Cuthbert and so on without being considered a heretic as long as you acknowledged Rao as creator and primary banisher of evil. I don't think there's anything in the excerpts from the Book of Incarum in the adventure that precludes the existence of other gods, though (except for Tharizdun) nothing really requires gods other than Rao to exist, since Rao does everything.
Great stuff! I’ve thought about this long and hard, and I wholeheartedly agree with Rasgon on “specialized divinities”, meaning that within the cult, different gods are responsible of things within their purview. “X wills” it means that the God of healing, Pelor, heals wounds and that the god of justice, Heironeous, determines whether someone is guilty or innocent. Reference:
“2. The expression could be meant literally, but reserved for a deity's commonly understood spheres of influence.”
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Why just these three gods? Mayaheine is a servant of Pelor and Pelor and Heironeous are allied (in some sources), but Pelor and Rao and Rao and Zilchus are allied, too, so in theory those gods could be added to the cult. If cultists don't actually believe that Pelor, Heironeous, and Mayaheine are responsible for all events, they might also have cause to worship other gods. For example, Procan might be necessary for sailors and Bleredd for blacksmiths.
The idea is to start with these gods and then it would spread, as you have suggested. The basic setup would easily support more cultists from other religions, such as the followers of Procan. Before having a new deity included, the followers of the deity must make a successful petition and join in with decent numbers.
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It might be a good idea to create a unique creation myth to explain why the cultists believe that these three gods are the most important. and cults tend to go well with doomsday prophecies, so it might be a good idea to come up with an apocalypse in which these three gods play prominent roles.
Certainly!
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What if different sets of clerics make contradictory declarations? For example, three clerics declare war against the Great Kingdom while three other clerics declare that peace must be maintained. Who wins?
I don’t know. No one knows. The situation will just roll as it is. Most likely after the first such incident there will be a new rule to cover these kinds of events.
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I'd rather the list of rules had some foundation in existing lore (whether official or DM-created).
That sounds better but a bit trickier.
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I read "no drawing" as meaning specifically no drawings allowed, and not a ban on all man made images.
If I am not confused, I think Sutemi has confirmed that it is specifically a ban on drawings and not on all images.
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One of the reasons for this threads is to map what is reasonable and what is not. For instance, the apostasy part was too much, definitely.
