So I'm trying to come up with a 1-20 adventure chain broken up into Tiers (1-5, 5-10, 10-15, and 15-20). I want to have some kind of connection running all the way through with a big boss at the end that has been pulling the strings, but only noticed the party when they got in the way.
There's lots of nifty options, drow, beholders, illithids, dragons, demons, devils, etc.
What I keep running into is why does it keep coming down to a five man strike force? If the drow are raiding the surface, Why doesn't someone send the army?
If the Elder Brain has established itself under the town, Why doesn't the National guard get called out?
The answer of course is that wouldn't be fun! Or time is of the essence and there's no chance to convince the local lord that the threat is serious.
I guess what I'm trying to work towards is a complicated enough plot for 20 levels that is still small enough that the party has a reasonable chance to muck things up for everyone. And that the local lord won't send his personal adventurer's after..
Maybe I'm just thinking too hard and should just try something easy to get the players from first level to level 2.
Well, you could always go with the Baldur's Gate/Elder Scrolls method, which is certainly well known to the point of being clichéd (not that those game developers invented it themselves, mind you), but people still enjoy it well enough. And that method is...
The 1st level adventurers are new to Greyhawk City, and one of the local spinsters is having a giant rat problem in her cellar...
After slaying the rats, her grandson, who has conveniently just arrived, thanks you for helping his nana. Seeing that the characters look somewhat capable, he mentions to them that he just so happens to be being plagued by a local group of street toughs, who are apparently going to break his legs because of...stuff. As he seems like a good enough fellow (he did bring his nana a basket of food after all), the characters decide they will help him out.
After dealing with the thugs, the characters receive a visit from a less thuggish, but still somewhat sinister villain, who just so happens to be a low level member of the Thieves' Guild. He is rather impressed with how they have so easily dealt with his...ahem...such gutter trash, and that he's got just the task for them; unless, of course, the characters want to be out of favor with the guild and have "open season" declared on their belongings...
And so it goes, the characters passing from one small task to another, which not only serves to pile up those early XP and move them on to bigger and better things, but to familiarize them with the local area, its inhabitants and organizations, and its movers and shakers.
And that is usually when the characters get a lead on something a bit bigger, as they have gained some notoriety, such that certain folks might...arrange...for the characters to come across such a lead.
And, before you know it, the characters are off to find out why people have gone missing from the slums, or to investigate strange lights seen in the swamp, or to help fight off an invasion of monsters from the western mountains, or even bring the fight directly to the horrors inhabiting the Underdark.
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Last edited by Cebrion on Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:37 pm; edited 3 times in total
My first answer to your question is to look to action-adventure movies for inspiration. James Bond, Mission Impossible, The Expendables, Conan the Barbarian, etc. These small groups take out world-conquering bad guys when armies would fail in the task.
Secondly, as this is a fantasy world where the power difference between a conscripted soldier and an accomplished adventurer is even more pronounced than the difference between a National Guardsman and a highly experienced CIA operative, you must consider that high level bad guys would simply wipe out an army while hardly breaking a sweat.
In my campaign blog, Against the Giants, I even answered that question by explaining that Querchard initially sent an army into the hills to retaliate against Nosnra and his band, but that the giants devastated the Sterich army by simply hurling rocks and trees, etc. at them from the heights.
An army is like a hammer, but sometimes you need a surgeon's scalpel.
I needed reminded of the power difference between adventurers and Soldiers. Especially when the terrain makes it strategically advantageous to use fewer soldiers.
1. Plausible deniability... think of adventures like City of Skulls where a potentate wants something done, but does not want/need the credit. "Should you fail, you will be disavowed..."
2. The military is dealing with other things. Keeping civil order, guarding the border, etc. take time and resources. Sometime the army lacks the extra capacity to look into those mysterious disappearances. In Patriots of Ulek, the characters are given the task to deliver a message because everyone else is too busy.
3. The characters care. As above, but maybe the taxes are still being paid, so the local law and order is not losing sleep over the villagers' personality issues as in Cult of the Reptile God. As long as they "render unto Caesar..."
4. The characters stumble into it. They see what almost no one else sees, and start investigating it. Once the authorities realize what is afoot, they may decide to let the characters continue, as they seem to be doing alright anyway, and 1 and 2 still apply. Think Flames of the Falcon. These modules handle this very well and as the opposition gets tougher, the authorities become more engaged, providing more support to the characters.
5. Also, armies are expensive. Since medieval/fantasy warfare in Greyhawk is usually fought for limited ends (Greyhawk Wars not withstanding) armies have to be carefully husbanded and not wasted. Training, equipping, feeding, clothing, and housing soldiers takes a lot of effort for these societies, so military forces are not that large nor are they readily expended, except by Grace Grennell.
Last edited by tarelton on Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:11 am; edited 1 time in total
5. Also, armies are expensive. Since medieval/fantasy warfare in Greyhawk is usually fought for limited ends (Greyhawk Wars not withstanding) armies have to be carefully husbanded and not wasted. Training, equipping, feeding, clothing, and housing soldiers takes a lot of effort for these societies, so military forces are not that large nor are they readily expended, except by Grace Grennell.
Further thoughts on this. How many nations not bordering Iuz have full standing armies as opposed to local militia manning forts and outposts?
Mostly it would be city guards in the really big cities, right?
The Oeridian states seem to be largely feudal, and thus possess a small core of King's troops and rely upon the nobles to fill out the army... Marklands speaks to this specifically with Furyondy and Nyrond. City states like Greyhawk, which has a weak nobility, have something more approximating a standing army. I'm not sure how I would construct the armies of the Sheldomar Valley, except that the Kights of the Watch make me think of the Teutonic Knights.
So yes, there are generally not large numbers of troops sitting around in barracks available for missions at any one moment. The potentate maintains some household troops permanently, but they are usually fully employed securing his personal domain. If he musters his retainers, he has to pay for their upkeep as well. This is possible for a short campaign, but is very expensive if it exceeds the feudal obligation, as described in Marklands.
Further, if the troops are militia, taking them off their land is going to cause medium-to-long term economic pain.
Also, any medieval army that musters has to garrison the strongholds in its rear. Unlike modern armies and army groups, it is easy for an opposing force to maneuver around them so even when a military musters, many if not most of the force will maintain static garrisons.
Tarelton covered most of the reasons. Plausible deniability is one of the biggest IMO.
Note that besides speedy mustering, adventures also travel MUCH faster than armies. They ride fast, maybe even fly or teleport. They operate under the radar. They can cross borders without constituting an act of war.
The biggest point that hasn't been mentioned is adventures are specialists. Soldiers are trained for war. Adventures understand stealth, magic, undead, traps, and ancient languages. They can negotiate with other races, infiltrate enemy strongholds. They typically have demihumans that can see in the dark and fit into places humans physically can't. 0-level, even elite 1st-level, soldiers would be lucky to even lay eyes on a drow before they die. Common weapons can't even harm devils, golems, and many undead. Sending troops against such monsters would be a bloodbath. Soldiers are trained in formations, not fighting side by side in 10' hallways.
The context where adventures, especially low-level ones, don't work well is world-shaking events. If rulers properly understand the severity of a threat (a big if), there's no way they would send a few heroes.
Night Below handles this well, with adventures stumbling onto the plot by accident before anyone understands the global danger. The Illithiad trilogy does not (i.e., the monsters are blotting out the sun and only your 7th-level characters can stop them!).
I needed reminded of the power difference between adventurers and Soldiers. Especially when the terrain makes it strategically advantageous to use fewer soldiers.
One thing about a group of soldiers that should not be overlooked is that they can still inflict a "Butch and Sundance" ending on foolish characters. Even a small military force with semi-competent leadership can seriously impede adventurers. They are going to have an idea of how to handle wizards and priests, and will maximize their advantages against individually more powerful characters. While I have not had the chance to test Lanchester Equations for AD&D, I did some simple expected value computations and determined that a small detachment of 0-level soldiers with some crossbows could defeat 2 ogres, though with some casualties.
So what do basically competent soldiers do when confronted by dangerous adventurers?
1. Quantity has a quality all of its own. They move to surround the party and attack individuals from every quarter. This will yield attack bonuses and negate some advantages, particularly area affect spells if the party is broken up into individuals fighting several 0- or low-level opponents. If you saw "Lone Survivor" you know that quality only takes you so far against basically competent quantity.
2. Missile weapons. Anyone who even looks like a spell caster will be peppered by missiles of any type available. Bows are to be feared, as even the 0-level opponent doubles his chance to hit with two attacks per round.
3. Overbearing. Full plate? Large Sword? Bracers of Defense? How much do these help when 5 reasonably burly men-at-arms are piling on you?
4. Maneuver. Soldiers will try to move to a place where they can make use of the above. A large room, open spaces and the like, and avoid the 10' hallway. Unless they can maneuver behind the characters in the hallway because it is their castle...
5. Run for help. Oh yeah, in all the confusion, someone is probably running off to get help. Possibly a lot of help (see 1). Possibly better equipped help too.
Further thoughts on this. How many nations not bordering Iuz have full standing armies as opposed to local militia manning forts and outposts?
Mostly it would be city guards in the really big cities, right?
I would agree. What you would likely see is that few states have excess military capacity. I fumbled with this concept in my earlier post. Modern states, such as the United States have militaries that are designed to project combat power almost exclusively externally, and has few if any domestic calls on its resources. However, this is a historical aberration. Even through the 18th century, most militaries were designed at least as much for internal security/policing as they were for fighting external foes.
Before the Age of Reason, Imperial and Republican Rome sometimes had excess capacity, but even then it required careful movements of troops from one of the three frontiers (Rhine, Danube, Parthia) to mount any sort of offensive without risking an incursion from elsewhere. Most medieval/fantasy states need their troops "minding the store" and cannot afford to send off large concentrations unless there is a truly important reason. Adventurers are a wonderful stop-gap.
...Maybe I'm just thinking too hard and should just try something easy to get the players from first level to level 2.
-Two different times, I've had PCs start out at 1st level while still serving in a military force. Military forces are the single biggest source of fighters, and a noticeable source of rangers. If you use the AD&D2 kits or the D&D 3 optional classes, most marshals and warmages, and many scouts, would also start out in the military. Of course, almost any player class could get their start in the military.
tarelton wrote:
...What you would likely see is that few states have excess military capacity... Most medieval/fantasy states need their troops "minding the store" and cannot afford to send off large concentrations unless there is a truly important reason. Adventurers are a wonderful stop-gap.
...and...
tarelton wrote:
1. Plausible deniability...
2. The military is dealing with other things...
3. The characters care...
4. The characters stumble into it...
5. Also, armies are expensive...
-No argument. When we got U'sama Bin Laden, we did it with a small special operations team, not the 82nd Airborne Division.
vestcoat wrote:
...The context where adventures, especially low-level ones, don't work well is world-shaking events. If rulers properly understand the severity of a threat (a big if), there's no way they would send a few heroes...
-Pelennor Fields vs. the mission to Mt. Orodruin.
tarelton wrote:
...One thing about a group of soldiers that should not be overlooked is that they can still inflict a "Butch and Sundance" ending on foolish characters. Even a small military force with semi-competent leadership can seriously impede adventurers...
...While I have not had the chance to test Lanchester Equations for AD&D, I did some simple expected value computations and determined that a small detachment of 0-level soldiers with some crossbows could defeat 2 ogres, though with some casualties...
I couldn't find Fain's original article on the internet, but I have a printed hard copy. In her original article pointed out that the Lanchester equations make sense if you account for things like defensive posture, terrain, and surprise into account, using the Quantified Judgment Model. I use a modified version of its update, the Tactical Numerical Deterministic Model.
A sample of some of the Combat Effectiveness Ratings (D&D 3.5 rules):
Human Com1 (11 S, 10 D, 12 C, 10 I, 10 W, 10 Ch): 0.51
Human Exp1 (11 S, 10 D, 12 C, 12 I, 10 W, 10 Ch): 0.72
Human Ari1 (13 S, 11 D, 12 C, 12 I, 10 W, 12 Ch): 0.92
Human War1 (13 S, 11 D, 12 C, 10 I, 9 W, 8 Ch): 1.00
Human Ftr1 (15 S, 13 D, 14 C, 10 I, 10 W, 10 Ch): 1.36
Human Ftr2 (15 S, 13 D, 14 C, 10 I, 10 W, 10 Ch): 2.08
Human Ftr3 (15 S, 13 D, 14 C, 10 I, 10 W, 10 Ch): 2.59
Human Ftr4 (15 S, 13 D, 14 C, 10 I, 10 W, 10 Ch): 3.19
Human Ftr5 (15 S, 13 D, 14 C, 10 I, 10 W, 10 Ch): 3.66
Goblin War1 (11 S, 13 D, 12 C, 10 I, 9 W, 8 Ch): 0.81 (not inc. night vision advantage)
Orc War1 (17 S, 11 D, 12 C, 8 I, 7 W, 6 Ch): 1.20 (not inc. night vision advantage, or daylight disadvantage)
Ogre 4 HD (21 S, 8 D, 15 C, 6 I, 10 W, 7 Ch): 6.57 (not inc. night vision advantage)
The casualty ratio would be less than square of the CEV rating, while their ability to hold their ground is about equal to the CEV rating. Keep in mind that a "casualty" who is an umpteenth level type would often only have a scratch in a short battle, while 1st level types could be anything from a scratch to dead. I've found that it's really hard to account for 3rd level or higher offensive spells (e.g., "Fireball", "Lightning") or their equivalent (e.g., dragon's breath) in conventional fantasy medieval combat. Same thing would go for flying creatures and those invulnerable to ordinary weapons. I just play that part out (That's where the over-powered guys could come in!). I also haven't bothered to account for stealth and observation, although a Rogue or Scout in a conventional fantasy medieval battle doesn't normally get to exploit those skills, anyway; That's for before and after a conventional battle. For exceptions, play that part out. TNDM works great for conventional battles between typical opponents with 2,000 to 20,000 on either side.
...BTW, Tarleton, what happened to your Bloody Ban' avatar?
1) As others have pointed out, adventurers have plausible deniability. Adventurers don't have many of the same political considerations tying them down that rulers might. This is why the Marquis of Bissel hired the players in "The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth". He said 'political considerations' prevented him from trying to find Iggwilv's treasure himself. A random band of adventurers keeping their ties to Bissel secret won't attract nearly as much attention as the Marquis obviously would, and there'd be far less political fallout for the Littlemark if the adventurers were captured or killed than if the Marquis was.
2) A small band of adventurers, even if they have some henchmen and hirelings, can still move faster, feed and equip themselves much more cheaply, and be much less likely to attract notice than a large army. A small party could pass through a mountain range relatively quickly, live off the land and be less likely to attract the giant sentries' notice than a large army hauling a huge amount of baggage with it. Just look at all the trouble Hannibal had crossing the Alps...
3) I'd also argue that there are some tasks a small band can accomplish that a large force can't. One trope of evil fantasy armies is how the common mooks are only cooperating because of their loyalty to or fear of the Big Bad Evil Guy. If the BBEG is killed or otherwise defeated, the mooks all turn on each other and the army collapses. Needless to say, these tasks often fall to small bands of adventurers who can infiltrate enemy camps and fortresses when large armies would attract too much attention.
And why isn't the ruler recruiting adventurers for his armies, anyway?
Can he grant titles of nobility, land, serfs, and the right to rebuild ruined castles (dungeons inhabited by monsters)?
...And why isn't the ruler recruiting adventurers for his armies, anyway?
-I think they do...
vestcoat wrote:
...0-level, even elite 1st-level, soldiers would be lucky to even lay eyes on a drow before they die...
-Hmmm... On 1st level Fighters being "Elite"... I covered most of this in my Ratik's Military thread ( http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=73658#73658 ), but it still goes. At the bottom, I've added two other sources on soldiers and their class and levels that I didn't consider in my original post:
Source: Gary Gygax, Glossography for the Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting (Lake Geneva, WI: TSR, 1983), patrols and military described on 4-7; Ratik Table on p. 10 (medium patrols, levy patrols, and woodsmen);
Comment: In the Glossography for the Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting, Gygax assumes that there is one "Veteran” for every five “Regulars” (0 level), but in the text he describes veterans as 2nd level, while describing them as 1st level in the table. One thing to keep in mind is that the men on a patrol might be better trained, experienced, or equipped than the average soldier (compare to "Soldiery"), since the driftwood gets left behind.
Source: Carl Sargent, Atlas of the Flanaess: From the Ashes (Lake Geneva, WI: TSR, 1992), patrols described on Reference Card #7; Ratik on Reference Card #10 (regular, levy, and woodsman patrols).
Comment: ...Sargent doesn’t change Gygax's take too much. He puts patrols in the same general categories. The troops tend to be less well equipped (finances after the Greyhawk Wars, you know), but even levied troops are at least 1st level fighters. Presumably, in the Greyhawk Wars' immediate aftermath, it wouldn’t have been hard to call up veterans (even if they weren’t happy about it).
Sources: Mike Breault and Thomas M. Reid, Glory of Rome [AD&D2] (Lake Geneva, WI: TSR, 1993), pp. 54 (legionaires), 55 (NCOs and officers) vs. their opponents on pp. 59-62;
Gary Gygax, A Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting (Lake Geneva, WI: TSR Inc., 1983), p. 23 (Overking’s Companion Guard).
Comment: In The Glory of Rome, late Republican and early Imperial legionnaires were 1st level fighters, NCOs are 2nd level fighters, and the centurion in charge of an 80-man century is 3rd to 5th level. The men of an elite 1st cohort are usually one level higher (picked from experienced men in the other 9 cohorts), with higher level NCOs and centurions. The most experienced soldier, a primus pilus, would be at least an 8th level fighter. A legion that fought a lot and most of the legionnaires survived might add another level. This is about as well trained and experienced as any large sized fighting force could hope to be, although Gygax allowed for higher levels among high-ranking officers in the Glossography and the AD&D1 DMG. In the Flanaess, the level of training and skill might be found units like the the Nyrondese legions before the Greyhawk Wars, or in the Great Kingdom’s armies in its heyday, or the Overking's Companion Guard. Rome’s various enemies are generally portrayed as a combination of 0 level and 1st level types, with a 1st or 2nd level Fighter for every 20 men and a 2nd to 4th level fighter for every 100. This probably more typical of what you’d see in the Flanaess.
Source: Carl Sargent and Rik Rose, Greyhawk: Folk, Feuds, and Factions (Lake Geneva, TSR, 1989), p. 11.
The typical member of the Greyhawk Watch (“Man-at-Arms) is a 1st level fighter, a Junior Sergeant is a 2nd level fighter, and a Sergeant-at-Arms is a 3rd level fighter. This is about as well-trained as Roman legionnaires (see above).
Source: Carl Sargent, The Marklands (Doh! I forgot to write down the bib' info' before I left home!)
Comment: This details Furyondy's military in 585. Most regulars are described as 1st or 2nd level with stats of an average on 12 STR, 12 DEX, 12 CON. The "officers" (commissioned officers, apparently) are 3rd level or higher.
Source: Gary Gygax, "Sturmgeschutz and Sorcery". This in Best of the Dragon (orig. from an issue of Strategic Review), but it's also on the net, here:
In the scenario, the captain was 5th level, the senior NCOs were 4th level, and the other guys were 3rd level. I don't own Tractics anymore, but IIRC, the 1st SS Panzer Division (whence the above guys might have come from) were listed as "Veteran Elite" after 1941. The Polish 1st Armored Division was Veteran Regular after Normandy, and the U.S. 1st Infantry Division was Veteran Regular after Sicily. Considering that the typical soldier in The Big Red One at that time would have been a draftee with less than two years' of service, it can not be that hard to become a 1st level Fighter. The reason there are so many 0 level Men-at-Arms types running around the Flanaess as opposed to 1st level Fighters seems to be that Gygax assumed that most training was either brief, non-rigorous, or both. Most 0 level types seem to be constabulary types whose primary job consists of guard duty and do little training, or caravan guards who do little training and see little action. If 1st level Fighters are elite, it's only relatively so. There should be plenty of forces where the typical private would be a 1st level Fighter.
I think the key component of sending a small group of specialists instead of a conventional Army is related to magic. The ability to cast spells makes adventurers able to do things regular Soldiers just can't. PCs with high levels obviously makes them stand out versus regular Soldiers, but magic makes them unique and able to literally move mountains, despite their small numbers.
...PCs with high levels obviously makes them stand out versus regular Soldiers, but magic makes them unique and able to literally move mountains, despite their small numbers.
-Armies and navies have spellcasters, arcane and divine, too, although a higher proportion of adventurers tend to be spellcasters, although that varies from party to party. However, almost any party of adventurers above 2nd level is likely to have a disproportionate number of magic items, including weapons.
What about issues that aren't amenable to magical solutions?
Some of these answers also assume that adventurers have ridiculously high experience levels, which is not necessarily the case, even in the Forgotten Realms.
Are adventurers really such a separate thing from the military?
Many adventurers are mercenaries, no?
Lords can hire them the same way they'd hire a bunch of crossbowmen or pike-men, only adventurers cost more per head because they bring some specialized skills and talents that the common run of hirelings don't bring.
I would assume the great majority of fighters are just that: professional fighting-men. They are the same guys who serve as veteran troops in lords' hosts, knights, crack long-bowmen, etc.
I like the old class name: 'fighting-man' better than 'fighter' because it sounds more like something people would say in-game.
[/b]
You did already say it twice, but my question does tangentially bring up something which may deserve its own thread: free companies and mercenary war-bands of the Flaeness.
In Greyhawk Wars, each of the six major countries had 5 command groups (one of them led by the ruler), and 5 groups of "heroes" who could also function as command groups.
Are adventurers really such a separate thing from the military?
Many adventurers are mercenaries...
Almor, early 579 CY:
"...the western nobility has raised sizable regiments based at and around Oldred. These forces are primarily volunteers, with many petty officers and adventurer types present."
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