It was in the Erthynul and the Pomarj thread that Stratis discussion started gaining momentum . I decided to post this so that thread can get back on track.
I have included the story of Bone Break, Stratis first weapon as a godling.
The Story of BoneBreak.
When Stratis was but a godling, he chafed at his mother's protectiveness. She kept her son safe in her fortress on Ysgard, the plane of heros. "The mortals need your shield, not I,"he asserted, but Stern Alia did not heed him. By day Stratis studied the ways of war on Ysgard's many battlefields, learnibg from the greatest hero's of the past. In Alia's fortress, however, no weapons were allowed. "There is no war within these walls,"she decreed.
Stratis, like all sons, longed to succeed on his own. When his mother was away attending the high priests of Thalos. Stratis made his way to one of her planar portals and stepped through. He found himself in a land of heat and fire. Ribbons of earth floated on pools of magma and the ground beneath his feet oozed acrid smoke. In the distance Stratis could see the World Ash, so he knew he was somewhere on Ysgard still. With godly power, he strode over lava and bounded over geysers, making his way to the planespanning tree.
The appearance of this impetuous godling had not gone unnoticed. Savage fire giants spied him from afar and set up an ambush near the World Ash. In the blink of an eye, Stratis was surrounded by a dozen of the brutes, each one encased in glowing hot armor and wielding a mighty two-handed blade. "Your blood is ours, little god," they taunted. "You don't even have a weapon to defend yourself."
Stratis said nothing. Before they could close with him, he leaped over their heads and bounded to the World Ash. He could have climbed the tree and escaped to another plane of existence. He could have, but he did not. Instead, he grabbed a branch and tore it free. He then charged the fire giants, wielding his club with deadly skill, smashing bones and skulls in a bloodthirsty rage. In the end, Stratis stood alone with twelve lifeless fire giants at his feet.
Thus did Stratis win his first battle and gain his first weapon.
It was in the Erthynul and the Pomarj thread that Stratis discussion started gaining momentum . I decided to post this so that thread can get back on track.
Argon
You likely dodged some Purple Lightning on that one. We'll see if Erythnul and the Pomarj can recover some steam on that original thread. Good call, Argon!
I do not fear, the purple lighting. Though I do respect him. Besides the thread was being sidetracked so I whated to get it back on track. Also since the Paladin of Stratis came into the fold on Stratis I deceided to include more on him here.
Zadkiel had it all. Squired into the paladins of Stratis at age twelve, he fulfilled his childhood dream of knighthood at a young age. He occupied a respected place in Thalish society, even if Stratis battlefield ethics seemed foreign to the common citizen. Zadkiel was a strong man in a strong church in a strong country.
He never expected his god to die.
the church of Stratis was thrown into disarray after their god's death. Some turned to the Shield Mother, others to darker deities, and others to no gods at all. Zadkiel was devastated. Overnight his life had been irrevocably changed, and at first he didn't know what to do. In the deepness of the night, he contemplated suicide - but something always stayed his hand. Perhaps there was a purpose to his life or Stratis's death.
As the months went by, it became clearer to him. Thalos was girding bfor war and needed his strength. Though Stratis was dead, Zadkiel still knew war. If he could not serve his god, he reasoned, he would serve Thalos and use every stratagem he had learned at the temple.
Zadkiel proved himself in battle again and again. He was so fearless that some whispered he longed to join Stratis in death. Yet somehow he always survived. When he heard word of Bonebreak, he knew what he must do. Whether through divine inspiration or pure instinct, there was no doubt in his mind. He had to go to the Ghostwind Plateau, where so many of his comrades had fallen so long ago. A holy place, but a place of sorrow. There he will find Bonebreak or death. Either way brings him one step closer to Stratis.
Personality:
Zadkiel is a man on the brink. He has kept himself going through difficult times by focusing on what he was trained for; war. Yet he hasn't really filled the void left by Stratis's passing. The Shield Mother watches over the paladins of Stratis, but even she cannot heal their souls. That is a battle each must fight alone.
Argon - one of the things that I like most about the write up about Zadkiel, from the Ghostwind campaign supplement, is the quote near the top of the page ... his battlecry.
Stratis LIVES!!!
Especially, since I really liked the Shieldlands adventures that were written from the LG crew. The adventure (SHL 9-05) "Stratis" came out pretty cool, with a new sort of Avatar/Divine Minion/Proxy of Stratis rising up to reclaim his divine ranks, since there wasn't a "winner" of the Godwar.
I've got pages of stuff that I write about Stratis, and notes on him and his panoply of weapons, and such.
I think that perhaps one fo the things that I liked about him so much was the idea of a third brother that so few people in the Flanaess would know about. He fit in thematically with the rest of the family (Heironeous, Hextor, and their mother, Stern Alia). One of the bizarre things about Greyhawk to me is how it's never been said who sired the three brothers. Or even just the first two. But, especially that they diecided to depict him with four arms, since his brothers had two and six each.
I like the Ghostwind Campaign and its supplements. I figured you would be able to add more on Stratis in this thread. I also remember that picture you have of the three brothers. So Is Stratis the first or middle child? I figure he's the oldest this might explain Stern Alia protector nature of her son Heironeous. She could not suffer the loss of another son. So when Heironeous was born, his skin was anointed with a special salve called meersalm that made him virtually invulnerable.
Stern Alia must of sensed that Hextor would turn to evil. That is the only explanation why he was not also treated with the meersalm. The only other reason I could think of was the fact that Heironeous was born with only two arms while Stratis and Hextor had four until Hextor made a deal with the lords of evil granting him two additional arms.
Stratis seemed to shun his mothers protection and I think Stern Alia sought to make up for this by protecting Heironeous.
... I also remember that picture you have of the three brothers.
You know, funny thing ... I did the illustration of The Brothers Three, but, when I did it, I had a bout of cerebral flatulence. I drew the wrong face! I mistakenly used a face that was inspired from Erythnul, rather than Hextor. One of these days I should get around to a finished (and correct) version.
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So, is Stratis the first or middle child? ... She could not suffer the loss of another son. ...
Interesting thing is that Stratis was around for over a thousand years, and did not die until 586 or 587 CY. So, Heironeous would have been a full god long before the death of Stratis and the beginning of the Godwar. Oddly, I tend to think of Stratis as the youngest, though as you point out, it thematically goes well that he might be the middle child. Perhaps she felt that Heironeous was at a disadvantage from his brothers, and gave him the meersalm-bath that would protect him.
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Stratis seemed to shun his mothers protection and I think Stern Alia sought to make up for this by protecting Heironeous.
Agreed that she seemed to want to protect him, but she gave him her own shield that he carried with him for a long, long time. This artifact was a gift from the Shield Mother to her son and bears her likeness. So, it would appear that he accepted her protection in some form or another. In most (2/3) of the depictions of him that I have seen, he carries the shield. In the single illustration that he doesn't, it's a depiction of him with his very first weapon (Bonebreak), so he's not carrying *anything* else.
So, she protected Stratis with her divine magical item (the shield), and Heironeous got the meersalm ... so the question that follows is the one that you bring up, why didn't Hextor get anything? Did she know that he would try to kill her other sons? Was he firstborn, or last? _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
He then charged the fire giants, wielding his club with deadly skill, smashing bones and skulls in a bloodthirsty rage.
I don't have much to add to this conversation because I haven't commited many ranks to Knowledge: Religion. However, the above quote from Argon's first post in this thread stood out to me as a clue that Stratis is Chaotic Neutral. Lawful warriors don't tend to fight in a manner that would be described as a 'bloodthirsty rage'.
Dragon #310 was published in 2003 and Unearthed Arcana (which included the Paladin of Freedom) was published in 2004. The Chainmail Miniatures game ended production in 2002, replaced the following year with the Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures Game. I think it's unlikely that a Chainmail miniature referred to an alternate paladin class.
Thanks for the chronology. My 'hawk-fu has gotten rusty, and I agree with you, which would mean that Stratis should be LN, LG, or NG, right? Of them, the NG gets us closer to Ysgard, where we know he was raised, and the LN seems nice in terms of a kind of complementarity with his brothers. It seems important not to presume that being bloodthirsty connotes a Chaotic alignment, but what I've seen so far doesn't include any mention of Stratis caring about innocent life, which is the hallmark of Good alignment, iirc. LN also seems the best choice given the published details on his dogma, i.e., "Stratis was god of war in all of its forms, both just and unjust."
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The Indian god Karttikeya lives in Ysgard, and he has twelve arms. Apart from him... I dunno, maybe the Norse dwarves forged him some artificial ones, in the same way that they forged Sif some new hair.
Thinking of Ysgard and the tale of BoneBreak made me think of dwarven forgers too. If he's the youngest brother, then perhaps he seeks these additional arms after being bested by Hextor in some little known myth? (The Ysgardian dwarf angle makes sense too given the tale of the Ebon Glaive.)
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I don't think Procan is likely to be the father of either god, but I think with Hextor being the god of strife and discord, the chaotic and tempestuous Procan might be a better fit for him. I think Velnius works well as the father of Heironeous.
Yes, the lightning symbol, sky-god, etc. aspects make this idea persuasive. In asking about Procan I was seeing whether we could glean any insights based on any divine ancestors of Hector, Priam, Hecuba, etc.
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My preference is Velnius (conceivably Bahamut, or maybe the tome archon Raziel) for Heironeous's father and Erythnul (or conceivably an archdevil) for Hextor's.
For reasons we discussed earlier, I'm favoring Velnius for Heironeous and Erythnul for Hextor. If Heironeous is firstborn, and Hextor is the product of rape, it would seem to accord with Alia applying the meersalm to her beloved firstborn but not favoring her second son, thus engendering the seeds of his bitterness and eventual turning to the Lords of Evil. Cf. Thor, with Loki?
I don't imagine Alia as the mother of the winds, however, and I think of them as elder to Heironeous, so perhaps Velnius and Alia dallied later (or just on the side?) of whoever is the mother of the four Oeridian winds?
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However, recently I've been toying with turning 4th edition gods into elder gods for the pantheons of Oerth. If that angle is used, Heironeous's father could be Amoth, a god of justice and mercy slain by Orcus, Demogorgon, and the little-known demon lord Rimmon working in concert. Though Rimmon was slain and Demogorgon was partially divided into two by Amoth's defense, Orcus struck the killing blow. Hextor's father could be Tuern, a god of war (slain in 4th edition by Bane, but Hextor himself could have killed him in the Greyhawk setting - with his name surviving as the source of a common name retained in warlike Oeridian families such as the famous Tuerny's).
I don't know about the 4e gods. Thus, I'm open to it. Would Alia be of an age/order akin to Amoth and Tuern, or would she be a daughter/niece to them (in addition to being a bride/lover)?
mtg wrote:
Finally, which deific lover (possibly Ysgardian) would be best to result in Stern Alia's exile from a powerful Oeridian god's demesne, or needing to flee from her ostensible home on a LN plane?
rasgon wrote:
Olidammara lives in Ysgard. That would be a pretty scandalous affair.
I think there's something to be gained from a(n) (self?)exiled Alia bearing Stratis on Ysgard so far from her ostensible Lawful home plane (I was thinking of the old LN(G) Arcadia), and Olidammara seems both likely and fun. On the other hand, if Alia takes and leaves lovers rather than marrying any, there's little need for her exile, and Velnius doesn't seem particularly possessive. Interesting ...
My interpretation is that a Lawful warrior of any stripe would not be obsessed with the kill and the blood, but would be constrained by law, tradition, honor, culture, etc. An obsession with blood/killing smacks of a Chaotic mindset. Perhaps a Lawful individual may have a psychotic aspect that causes him to be bloodthirsty on ocassion, but that still indicates that he has Chaotic tendencies.
...I also remember that picture you have of the three brothers. So Is Stratis the first or middle child? I figure he's the oldest this might explain Stern Alia protector nature of her son Heironeous. She could not suffer the loss of another son. So when Heironeous was born, his skin was anointed with a special salve called meersalm that made him virtually invulnerable.
Stern Alia must of sensed that Hextor would turn to evil. That is the only explanation why he was not also treated with the meersalm. The only other reason I could think of was the fact that Heironeous was born with only two arms while Stratis and Hextor had four until Hextor made a deal with the lords of evil granting him two additional arms.
Stratis seemed to shun his mothers protection and I think Stern Alia sought to make up for this by protecting Heironeous...
...or, the birth order was Hextor (6-arms), Stratis (4-arms), Heironeous (2-arms). I have no idea why they would have fewer arms as they go down the birth order. I'll leave that to others.
Icarus wrote:
... so the question that follows is the one that you bring up, why didn't Hextor get anything? Did she know that he would try to kill her other sons? Was he firstborn, or last?
The above could be an alternate explanation for why Hextor wasn't treated- he was already grown when Stratis was starting ot get in trouble.
Argon wrote:
...The Story of BoneBreak.
When Stratis was but a godling, he chafed at his mother's protectiveness. She kept her son safe in her fortress on Ysgard, the plane of heros...
-IIRC, Ysgard is a CG (CN) plane. But Allitur/Stern Alia keeps a pad there?
SirXaris wrote:
Argon wrote:
He then charged the fire giants, wielding his club with deadly skill, smashing bones and skulls in a bloodthirsty rage.
... the above quote from Argon's first post in this thread stood out to me as a clue that Stratis is Chaotic Neutral. Lawful warriors don't tend to fight in a manner that would be described as a 'bloodthirsty rage'.
-Sir X beat me to this. On the alignment issue, I'd also add that Stratis seems rather disobedient to his mother, at least in this story.
Youth?
Icarus wrote:
... One of the bizarre things about Greyhawk to me is how it's never been said who sired the three brothers. Or even just the first two. But, especially that they diecided to depict him with four arms, since his brothers had two and six each...
...and...
mtg wrote:
...For reasons we discussed earlier, I'm favoring Velnius for Heironeous and Erythnul for Hextor. If Heironeous is firstborn, and Hextor is the product of rape, it would seem to accord with Alia applying the meersalm to her beloved firstborn but not favoring her second son, thus engendering the seeds of his bitterness and eventual turning to the Lords of Evil. Cf. Thor, with Loki?...
Well ... there's a lot in response to mtg's two questions, so I will seperate them into two seperate posts, answering each in turn.
mtg wrote:
Also, what is the Godswar you mentioned? Is it a Chainmail plot? If so, would you mind describing it briefly or providing a quick link?
Well, this one is fairly straightforward ... The Godwar is what happened in Western Oerik when Stratis was killed. Interestingly, it wasn't a "Godswar". The gods themselves weren't involved, it was a war kicked off by a god. Basically, when mortals got all uppity and pacificstic, and decided that they wanted no war at all, they gathered up a few good men, and offed Stratis, the God of War, with a special god-slaying weapon. It's the principle plot device that directed the faction-wars of the Chainmail miniatures game. Essentially, it meant that there were no grand armies with generals and such, there were only skirmishers waging a bloody war against each other. .... what follows here is the an excerpt decribing the beginning of the events themselves:
It began with good intentions.
Imagine a world without war. A perfect realm where all beings are free to grow and develop without having to fight against their neighbors.
Imagine you see a way to make this dream a reality. Would you risk your life to end war? Your soul?
In the west of the world, the elven hero Marinn took the risk. The God of War, a four-armed warrior named Stratis, walked among mortal races for the pleasure of their combat. Wherever he went, he drove mortals to rise against one another in bloody battle. Marinn recruited heroes of all the mortal races, gathered artifacts that could slay a god, and lured Stratis into an ambush.
In daylong combat, Stratis slew all but three of the heroes. The fight had weakened him, though. Marinn’s allies seized the God of War, and Marinn pierced his heart with an ancient elven blade.
Stratis was slain, but divine power gave him time to utter his curse. “You think your people will be free? You think you have escaped me? You mortals will have nothing but war, not a moment of peace until a new God of War rises to replace me.”
Stratis staggered to his feet and erupted toward heaven, spraying his blood and weaponry over the world as his soul blasted upward. His weapons scattered away from his ascent as meteorites, burning through the smoke of the warzone.
Even as he died, the God of War knew how to place his weapons. Stratis’s axe dropped among the savage tribes of the southern lands and was seized by a hobgoblin chieftain named Drazen. Stratis’s spear plunged to the forgotten grave of an ancient human warlord, Ahmut, who rose screaming for vengeance and the death of all living things. Stratis’s flail came by the hands of a child to the half-fiend gnoll Jangir.
But the real danger lies not in the weapons that fell into evil hands—it’s the power promised by Stratis’s undiscovered artifacts. It is commonly believed that anyone who can assemble enough of Stratis’s divine panoply and blend it with his or her own supernatural power will become the next God of War.
The dead god’s promise of war unfettered has come true. It is now the fifth year of the Godwar. The only thing preventing universal apocalypse is the supernatural chaos left in the wake of Stratis’s fall. This turmoil hinders armies of thousands from mustering, much less marching against enemies. Common soldiers no longer remember orders without their commanders’ constant presence; they lose themselves to the frenzy of war instead of its efficient execution. Decisive warfare is now possible only with bands of elite combatants who can maintain their focus and cohesion. These same small bands spearhead the search for Stratis’s scattered panoply.
Stratis’s curse has left some room for hope. Unfortunately, it is the hope that one’s own people will sponsor the next God of War. Every kingdom and tribe fears the consequences should its enemies win. And no one can afford to trust the good intentions of those who, under other circumstances, might be friends. Because we know where good intentions have taken us . . .
It ends in war.
Hey Icarus, would you tell us more about the Stratis module? Where did it start, stop, any noteworthy places of interest, etc.?
Alrighty, part deux. So, the first thing to keep in mind is that Living Greyhawk adventures were written and published by RPGA volunteers who administrated the campaign. While technically not canon, there remains a significant camp of folks that followed it for their home games as well as LG. Regarding the dates, this adventure took place in 599 CY, while the current year would be 602 CY.
Essentially, the premise of the adventure is that there were forces allied against the mortal realm (Iuz and Malcanthet amongst them), and specifically against the Shield Lands. This was what began the push against them, and the PCs were critical in organizing the offensive to regain the Shield Lands. And obviously, Stratis played big in that. - it's basically him that sends the PCs on their mission to help the Shield Lands.
The adventure was SHL 9-05: "Stratis" Interestingly, it refers to Stratis thusly:
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Stratis, God of War: LN, hero-god of crusades, order, soldiers, strategy and wartime alliances.
In CY 596, at the time the young Lord Simen Sharn was murdered by Captain Kruptan, Sharn had been influenced by Zhayne the Black-hearted (an evil succubus) toward the worship of Hextor, though he had not forsaken Heironeous. Thus, while his soul slipped from the Prime Material with his death, Stern Alia found something unique about it. The mad goddess had decided that Heironeous was too focused on good and Hextor too focused on evil, and neither was focused enough on simply maintaining order. In her madness, she touched Sharn's soul and infused it with some of the fragmented essence of her third son, Stratis. The dead god of war was resurrected at the siege of Law's Forge by a ritual which was orchestrated by Simen Sharn , though he didn't fully understand it himself. As Iuz sought greater power from relics of the Unmaker and worked to pull it onto the Prime Material, the greater gods were unable to interfere directly, so they lent their support to the ritual to raise Stratis, intending that he would walk the Oerth and oppose Iuz and his forces directly. The ritual succeeded, Stratis was resurrected, and the young Lord Simen Sharn was consumed, body and soul, in the process. Since his resurrection, Stratis has carried on with Law's Crusade where Sharn had left off. CY 599 has seen the Shield Lands reclaim its lands at an unprecedented pace.
Thanks for the informative posts Icarus, and very funny jamesdglick. Before I get to Icarus's answers, I'll start with SirXaris's question / interpretation of Stratis's description as 'bloodthirsty."
SirXaris wrote:
My interpretation is that a Lawful warrior of any stripe would not be obsessed with the kill and the blood, but would be constrained by law, tradition, honor, culture, etc. An obsession with blood/killing smacks of a Chaotic mindset. Perhaps a Lawful individual may have a psychotic aspect that causes him to be bloodthirsty on ocassion, but that still indicates that he has Chaotic tendencies.
Initially I shared this interpretation, but I relented in the face of the human paladin of Stratis, which seems conclusive as to a Lawful, not Chaotic alignment.
We only have to regard Hextor to see a GH-canon Lawful Evil power whose portfolio includes: "war, discord, massacres, conflict, fitness, and tyranny." While war, fitness and tyranny might all seem relatively easy to characterize as Lawful, discord, massacres, and conflict seem less so, and more Chaotic, no? Nevertheless, Hextor is clearly aligned LE. So too, I decided it could be helpful not to presume that bloodthirsty equals Chaotic for Stratis. Perhaps in ways similar to Hextor, Stratis's Lawful alignment subordinates his bloodthirst to "the law of war" or somesuch?
On the other hand, maybe it's helpful to imagine Stratis as incorporating a dual entity? Maybe his upbringing on Ysgard resulted in a deific possession of sorts? While 3xE barbarians must be non-Lawful, I recall the 3e OA sohei had a class ability similar to the barbarian's rage (though I forget its name) that could be used to help explain Stratis's bloodthirsty fugue. (Here's a homebrew 3.5e adaptation, http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8388.0.)
Of course, YMMV, but that was the idea behind my comment.
That's reasonable. I think the problem is that the various canon writers didn't participate in years worth of forums like Canonfire! discussing the finer points of their creations before they submitted the final drafts. Thus, we end up with contradictions in canon that provide a feast for our happy forum.
Despite what I last posted in response to SirXaris's question, to me the Godwar description of Stratis seems clearly to present a CN being a la the FR god Tempus.
The only part of the description that might lend itself to a LN interpretation is how the idea to kill Stratis was reportedly hatched by an olven hero. If Marinn truly did it, then the ambush / assassination of Stratis looks more like a way to destroy a human power than anything else ...
On the other hand, the Godwar description also notes:
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Even as he died, the God of War knew how to place his weapons. Stratis’s axe dropped among the savage tribes of the southern lands and was seized by a hobgoblin chieftain named Drazen. Stratis’s spear plunged to the forgotten grave of an ancient human warlord, Ahmut, who rose screaming for vengeance and the death of all living things. Stratis’s flail came by the hands of a child to the half-fiend gnoll Jangir.
And this discrepancy regarding the Panoply of Stratis only confirms my sense that the Chainmail material was poorly designed and poorly edited with no care for internal consistency or thoughtfulness regarding D&D (let alone GH).
But in the spirit of Alternate Oerths, I think I'll pursue the notion of Stratis as a dual-being, with his second pair of arms as the most obvious indicator but clearly not the only one, e.g., his bloodthirstiness. I'm tempted to imagine the "original" Stratis as a LN being that was infected or corrupted by a CN spirit of Ysgard (which resulted in his second pair of arms, bloodthirstiness, etc.)
Anyone have any ideas on CN spirits of bloodthirsty warfare?
Finally, I like the LGH Stratis hero-deity, especially his portfolio of "crusades, order, soldiers, strategy and wartime alliances." While very different than what I had originally imagined (the eldest brother of three, favoring ancient weaponry like the spear and taking the lead in the period of Oeridian history before their adoption of the Baklunish horse), this end result seems promising for the Flanaess at the turn of the century.
I generally don't participate much in the way of alignment debates, but, I am going to relent on the topic, if ever so briefly. I am not so much going to debate the topic of Law and Chaos, so much as provide a little anecdotal comparison that I find in my own life.
I understand Stratis as a Lawful entity, in large part because of my service in the Army. Another part is that because I have often - in my personal life, amongst friends - been compared to being either a Paladin, or being Lawful Nuetral. Soldiers are often men who are very traditional in their views. They have a sense of duty and obligation to serve their country. They voluntarily subordinate themselves and subject themselves to stand under great duress of training. They are required to stand their ground, stoicly and intently, no matter what happens to them. no matter how much they want to quit, no matter how much they want to punch their drill sergeant in the mouth. They have the concept of obedience driven into them to the point that they accept command without question, because they know that their lack of hesitation may someday save their life. We're all familiar with how structured and linear the Army can be, so I won't drone on about it.
Now, I don't mean to say that all soldiers would be considered lawful. But, I think that the majority of those who do well in the service, who thrive in that environment, most likely are.
But, none of that precludes the concept of bloodlust. There's a certain rush that cannot be described that is derived in no other way than in combat. For example, when I was a young man and had a tremendous anger management problem, one of my favorite things to say was, "There's nothing in the world that's so good at venting agression, as a fully automatic rifle range." And it holds true today, even. ... well, at least for me it does.
There's this sense of heightened awareness, of exhileration, control, virility, strength, and immortality that can be found in the midst of combat. There's also terror, panic and fear of mortality. But when one manages to get through all of those emotions, and still come through victorious on the far side of the battlefield, there is an enormous sense of power that comes from it, that - within my meandering experience - cannot be found anywhere else.
So, when the Chainmail setting book said that Stratis had "... walked among mortal races for the pleasure of their combat", I totally understood that, and it made perfect sense to me. And I totally understand how that can be Lawful, and still even be a Paladin.
If Marinn truly did it, then the ambush / assassination of Stratis looks more like a way to destroy a human power than anything else ...
Hmm ... well, I think that I have to say, I am not following this bit.
First, I'm uncertain why you're putting "if" in front of it. I'm not trying to be snide at all, but, that's something akin to saying, "If George Washington truly led the American Army in the War of Independence". It's something that is a part of the setting's recorded history, as a well-established fact. While I am certain that there are all manner of fun and interesting possibilities that we could entertain, I'm not as certain that it's not simply an excercise in storytelling.
Secondly, it was neither an ambush, nor assassination. It was open combat that lasted the better part of a day.
Lastly, I'm not following why it seems like a way to destroy a human power. I don't think I've ever read of any nomral mortals that required an ancient elven artifact in order to be killed. ... I'm gonna have to ask you to offer a little more explanation about this one. Maybe I just missed a point somewhere along the way.
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And this discrepancy regarding the Panoply of Stratis only confirms my sense that the Chainmail material was poorly designed and poorly edited with no care for internal consistency or thoughtfulness regarding D&D (let alone GH).
I hate to admit it ... maybe I'm just up too late at night.
I'm not following why the passage you quoted is a discrepancy, at all. I'm not quite sure what you're going at, at all. I'll look for a post later in the morning, perhaps, and you can tell me what it is that you think doesn't jibe, here.
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Finally, I like the LGH Stratis hero-deity, especially his portfolio of "crusades, order, soldiers, strategy and wartime alliances." While very different than what I had originally imagined (the eldest brother of three...
This is the type of thing that I like about him ... allegiances, treaties, tactics ... yep.
I think that I am leaning toward Stratis as the middle child. Stern Alia may've seen Hextor going bad, and offered her shield to Stratis, then when even that wasn't enough, gave Heironeous the meersalm. ... and, I think that it isn't unlikely that they may've each had a diferent father. _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
Last edited by Icarus on Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:33 am; edited 1 time in total
I think the problem is that the various canon writers didn't participate in years worth of forums like Canonfire! discussing the finer points of their creations before they submitted the final drafts. Thus, we end up with contradictions in canon that provide a feast for our happy forum...
-But sometimes apparent gaps and contradictions in canon inspire creative solutions!
Not that I have one for this...
Last edited by jamesdglick on Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:41 am; edited 3 times in total
So … I didn't want to make three posts in a row, so, I've been saving this post in my MS OneNote for a couple of days.
I finally went back and read how the whole Stratis-thing came up as a topic in the Erythnul thread where it began. There's a couple of excerpts that I wish that we had in this thread just for reference, and that they weren't "lost" over there, and kind of disjoined from the conversation here, but, meh, there's always quotes.
One note that I would like to put out there … while I know that it's not going to be quite a perfect answer, I'd like to pose a possibility regarding Stratis' alignment. I hadn't thought of this until just a moment or two ago, so, I looked it up! But, it's a discovery! It is possible, that Chris Pramas meant for Stratis' alignment to be True Neutral. This is essentially because in the Chainmail Miniatures game, there were only three alignments: Good, Neutral, and Evil. That is *IT*!! There's no such thing in Chainmail (or the Sundered Empire) as Law vs. Chaos!! I know, shocking, right?! In the D&D Miniatures game, this was changed to four alignments, LG, CG, CE, and LE. But, by then, the factions weren't named anymore.
So … it's not that the designers left it off, or anything, it was specifically written that way. With that thrown in, if I were to advocate any alignment other than LN for Stratis, I think that it would have to be True Neutral. [EDIT: I FOUND AN ANSWER!!]
So ... I just got a message from Chris Pramas, the Creative Director for Chainmail, and author of the setting articles in Dragon Magazine. I told him that we were wondering whether he would be willing to say what Stratis' full alignment may have been if he'd been given a writeup in D&D stats. So, his response follows:
Chris Pramas wrote:
... As for Stratis, I would peg him as Lawful Neutral. So then you'd have Heironeous as LG, Hextor as LE, and Stratis between the two as LN.
Now, I totally understand that every DM has their own campaign, and can do whatever they would like to with the material, and I love some of the ideas that I've read in this thread. But, I guess that at least puts a tag on what the author would have written for Stratis' alignment.
Another note that I would like to point out … regarding the discussion of the possibility of other "types" of paladins (paladins of tyranny, slaughter, or what have you) that might be sponsored by Stratis: In The Ghostwind Campaign, the D&D stats for Zadkiel, the Warlord of Thalos, a paladin of Stratis, specifically shows him as a LG 2nd level paladin - of the typical sort; Smite Chaos, and all. So, there's that.
Argon … one thing that I would like to point out is that there's a mistaken concept of the number of weapons and armor that Stratis has in his panoply. Though the GH Wiki only listed four items, there are, in fact, more. The fact that he only had four arms is not indicative of how many weapons that the God of War used or owned, nor even the number of factions (so that each one had an artifact). Chris Pramas mentions it in an interview here if you're interested. (It's only a one-liner, basically)
Wizards.com Interview wrote:
Stouthammer (interviewer): I have a question about Stratis' weapons. Ahmut has the spear, Drazen's Horde has the axe, Jangir has the flail, Ravilla (presumably) has the longsword. Thalos and Mordengard don't seem to have anything. What are the other two weapons and where are they?
Chris Pramas: Oh, there are lots of pieces of Stratis' panoply, not just those. That's the kind of thing we'll be revealing in the guidebooks over time. No spoiling it here!
… I actually just updated the wiki page for Stratis' panoply to include some of the other weapons of his with which I am familiar. (This included adding his longsword, axe, and flail, as well as details on the shield, and Ebon Glaive.) Note that he is also shown in artwork as also bearing a helm, breastplate, bracers, greaves, and thrown dart, but there weren't ever any printed details on those, to my knowledge.
And one last point, I'm curious about this though...
Argon wrote:
Supposedly he was slain by a collaboration of heroes from different races. One of which was an ogre.
I'm having difficulty gathering from where you found reference to at least one of the mortals who fought Stratis being an Ogre. Is there any chance that you could refer me to it? I'm certain that I have it, I'm just not recalling where it is, that I might read the detail and wording. I mean, I know that it technically says "all the mortal races", but, I personally interpret that as all of the typical PC races who would cooperate with each other. Still, I'm curious why you're calling out the ogre specifically. _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
Last edited by Icarus on Thu Jan 12, 2023 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
Hey Icarus, thanks for your anecdote about soldiering. Beyond according with my interpretation Stratis's bloodthirstiness (and accord with his LN alignment), I found it informative.
Regarding your questions, I'll do my best to explain.
Icarus wrote:
First, I'm uncertain why you're putting "if" in front of it. I'm not trying to be snide at all, but, that's something akin to saying, "If George Washington truly led the American Amry in the War of Independence". It's something that is a part of the setting's recorded history, as a well-established fact. While I am certain that there are all manner of fun and interesting possibilities that we could entertain, I'm not as certain that it's not simply an excercise in storytelling.
Using "if" was my way of questioning the text and playing with it in my mind, trying to read between the lines of received wisdom, old poems, oral legends, retellings finally committed to writing, translations, etc. I'm unfamiliar with the Chainmail materials but recall finding them dubious for GH canon a la the old Dragon annual map, which sparked many a critique, retcon attempt, elaboration, etc. (and I'm sure has continued to do so in the many years I've been away from CF).
Having tried to contextualize my initial / old perspective on the Chainmail material, let me explain that I'm not fixed in it: I've already learned from the present discussion across the threads that led to this one, and I'm excited to learn about what others know and how they've developed these materials.
Another explanation that might be helpful regards the ideas of canon, heresy, canonfire, Alternate Oerths, etc. In the past we've had many discussions about "what's canon" (and hence what's not), and somewhere along the way (after many a flamewar and many an erudite discussion), folks developed and then identified with the notion of heresy -- conscious disregard of particular setting products or conscious tinkering with them. Samwise and Taras Guarhoth, aka Montand, come to mind as initial or early proponents of this stance, but many others have adopted / adapted the notion.
For me, as I was winding down my online GH involvement, the enduring notion was the idea of "Alternate Oerths" -- derived obviously from Gygax's Oerth, Aerth, Yrth, etc. but also in respect of the many fans whose discourse comprise the online GH community (a number of whom I've befriended over the years, including through editing the early volume II OJ issues, as well as gaming in-person together).
For me, the notion of Alternate Oerths shapes my interest and curiosity around everyone's posts about canon, heresy, their campaigns, etc. We all have different access to basic texts, interpretations of them, ones we dis/favor, etc. And my sense is that I have a lot to learn from pretty much anyone who cares enough about campaigning in the setting to post about it online.
Moving on:
Quote:
Secondly, it was neither an ambush, nor assassination. It was open combat that lasted the better part of a day.
Lastly, I'm not following why it seems like a way to destroy a human power. I don't think I've ever read of any nomral mortals that required an ancient elven artifact in order to be killed. ... I'm gonna have to ask you to offer a little more explanation about this one. Maybe I just missed a point somewhere along the way.
Characterizing it as an ambush or assassination was my way of thinking about (playing with) the character of Marinn (about whom I know nothing beyond the text you shared, which was brand new to me).
The text sparked my thought that the notion of killing the god of war to achieve peace is crazy, from the precept that to achieve peace in a metaphysical (not political) way, it is paradoxical and an outright contradiction to use violence to achieve it. While one sufficiently charismatic, viz., Marinn (and his mentors, patrons, god?, etc.), might convince others, deicide of a LN god (who may well be based on Oerth's prime material plane) sounds like a cover story to me.
Of course, YMMV, but the story I began to imagine involved Marinn (and any mentors, etc.) calling this quest for a purpose different (or greater) than the one asserted. Peace, yes, but under whose terms? Ravilla's? Marinn's? Etc. Also, the fact that Marinn survived in order to "slay" Stratis (or was it just an avatar? or did he merely banish him from the PMP, perhaps sending Stratis back to Ysgard?) suggested to me that the daylong combat likely began with an ambush. Similarly, the purpose seemed to be the god's assassination, by all means available.
(I also wonder about the artifact or relic capable of killing Stratis, not merely an avatar, and binding his deific essence -- for possible absorption? -- not merely banishing him to Ysgard or another Outer Plane.)
So that's what I meant by "destroying a human power," i.e., killing a war god, yes, but not any old one but rather one worshiped by the enemies of Ravilla.
I'll stop in a moment, but finish with the discrepancy I (thought I had) noted.
I mistakenly thought that Stratis's panoply included no more weapons (or shields) than he has hands, but upon review today, I see that the panoply includes six melee weapons, plus the shield, with additional reference to a thrown dart. Wow, that's a lot of relic weapons!
Maybe Marinn, et al., just wanted Stratis's loot?
On the serious side, similar arms used by Stratis, Heironeous, Hextor and Erythnul suggests to me the ancestral arms (and technology) of the old Oeridians.
…
[EDIT: I FOUND AN ANSWER!!]
So ... I just got a message from Chris Pramas, the Creative Director for Chainmail, and author of the setting articles in Dragon Magazine. I told him that we were wondering whether he would be willing to say what Stratis' full alignment may have been if he'd been given a writeup in D&D stats. So, his response follows:
Chris Pramas wrote:
... As for Stratis, I would peg him as Lawful Neutral. So then you'd have Heironeous as LG, Hextor as LE, and Stratis between the two as LN.
Now, I totally understand that every DM has their own campaign, and can do whatever they would like to with the material, and I love some of the ideas that I've read in this thread. But, I guess that at least puts a tag on what the author would have written for Stratis' alignment...
-Icarus' bit of investigative reporting ties a bow on the question for me. Anything else that was written about Stratis' alignment is essentially a typo.
Icarus wrote:
...Now, I don't mean to say that all soldiers would be considered lawful. But, I think that the majority of those who do well in the service, who thrive in that environment, most likely are.
But, none of that precludes the concept of bloodlust. There's a certain rush that cannot be described that is derived in no other way than in combat...
-I won't argue with that.
How about (put into mortal terms), Stratis got an andrenalin rush out of combat, but his primary (and Lawful) motivation was that he was fulfiling some sort of duty?
Hmmm... When those mortals killed Stratis they may have done so based on a faulty premise. They assumed that Stratis (the warrior) was the cause of war, while in reality, Stratis was simply following his calling- fighting wars which others start?
But tossing his gear to all the baddies was still a tad vindictive.
I'm sure you have access to the reference on the races that fought Stratis. I pointed out the ogre to show how Stratis was perceived even by humanoids in the west. As you have pointed out ones assumption is that normal pc races where involved. Besides the shield mother has converted ogres whom has served in other armies to her calling in Thalos. At least that was used in the chain mail setting. One thing I noticed about western oerik was it seemed humanoids are not conceived to be monsters as they are in the east. As ogres seem to have many mercenaries in their ranks and seem to lean more towards neutrality then evil in the west.
I'll look up my resources and get back to you Icarus.
In the chainmail starter set you will find this gem.
The Death of Stratis
When the world was young, the gods strode the earth, They did not live on the Outer Planes or work through clergy as they do today. The gods were titans of passion who steered the fate of the world through countless generations. Sometimes they helped mortals, and sometimes they brought stroms of destruction. After the hardship of the Demon War, however, the gods largely left the world to the young races. There was one exception: the God of War.
Stratis, the God of War, could never spend his days languishing in heavenly courts. He lived for battle and the chaos of combat and needed the smell of blood in his nostrils. He scoured the Oerth(earth) looking for battle, and when he could not find it, he instigated it with godly powers. The young races were honored by the attention, at least at first. But as war followed war, with no respite and no lasting peace, some began to spurn the God of War. Was there no peace because the young races could not get along, they asked, or because Stratis would not allow it?
It was the elven hero Marinn who finally took action. He gathered together a mighty group of heros drawn from all the young races. These heroes dedicated themselves to freeing the young races from tyranny of war. They gathered together artifacts of great power and then lured the God of War into an ambush. The conflict lasted a full day, and the raging Stratis cut down nearly all the mortal heroes. When only three remained, Marinn saw the opportunity he had been waiting for. A blow from the axe of the ogre champion Grench had gashed a hole in Stratis’s breastplate. On a signal from Marinn, Grench and the human warrior Braddock rushed the God of War and grabbed hold of his arms. Then Marinn took his ancient elven blade and thrust it through the rended armor and into the god’s heart.
Stratis shuddered as the artifact hit home. He threw off Grench and Braddock, breaking Grench’s neck in the process. He then fell to his knees, kept alive only by the godly energies coursing through his body. He looked at Marinn and spat in disgust. “You think the young races will be free now, elf?” the god scorned. “You are wrong, and every mortal will pay for your mistake. Until a new God of War rises to replace me, the young races will not know even a moment of peace. Remember what you have wrought here this day---remember as the corpses pile their way toward the heavens!
The God of War staggered to his feet and reached toward the sky. A whirlwind of fire appeared at his summons and carried the dying god high into the air. As Stratis ascended toward the heavens, he threw down his panoply, scattering it among the young races. Marinn and Braddock watched as weapon after weapon flew out of the whirlwind, arcing across the night sky like fiery meteors. These mighty artifacts would spark an unending conflict that would tear the world apart—this was the dying god’s vengeance on the arrogant heroes of the young races.
Ah-ha!!
Argon, thank you for posting that ... you're entirely right that I have the material, it's just that I often forget there was another book other than the Model Descrioption Booklet with the myth in it, and it had some good material! I will admit though, that I had forgotten that there were names in that description. I simply remembered it as an "expanded" description of the earlier account that I gave, in all practicality. It's interesting how in one set they put some details, and in the later book, there were some things that got glossed over, while others were added. There's a few things that I hadn't noticed before that are relavant here:
It's interesting to me that it refers to the "young races" here, and in other sources, there are also the "Old Races" (a group that included Equicephs).
Also, it is clear that it was indeed an ambush. The "mighty grop of heroes" ambushed Stratis, and fought until there were only Marinn, Grench, and Braddock remaining. ... and only Marinn and Braddock survived. But, nevertheless, it was an ambush. <nods> Learn (or are reminded of ) something new, every day.
Birth order of Stratis and the Boys! There's a couple of little tidbits in this short, simple entry.
Quote:
Heironeous is the god of just and honorable war. His half·brother and nemesis, Hextor, is the god of destruction and tyranny. And his youngest brother, Stratis, is the god of the art of war.
This gives us a very definitive order of birth. We already know that Heironeous is elder to Hextor, and now, with this, we know that Stratis is the youngest.
Also included in this short description is a simple statement of Stratis' domains, and how they differ from his half-brothers' portfolios. As we have mentioned upthread, Stratis is about the "Art of War". Strategies, formations, tactics, manipulating battle, choosing battegrounds, etc. He doesn't worry about Good or Evil ... he just wants to be in the fight, and to fight well.
Argon, you're absolutely right in that there were Ogre Penitents that converted to the worship of the Shield Mother, and fought on behalf of the armies of Thalos. There were others that fought against the goodly races, like the Orcs, goblins, ogres, of hobgoblins of Drazen's Horde; the vile undead of Ahmut's Legion, the Drow of house Kilsek, and the gnolls of Naresh, but, I think that those all were concieved of as monsters. Other than that, I think (discounting mercenaries), there weren't really anything that I would consider monstrous that were allies of the goodly races. There were centaurs allied with the elves of Ravilla. There were the "Stonechildren" and elementals that were the allies of the dwarves of Mordergard. .... I can't really think of any humanoids that were not considered monstrous by the races of Good. But, as you point out, there are perhaps more penitent ogres that are on the side of Good than would otherwise be found elsewhere.
Oh, before I forget ...
mtg wrote:
Reviewing the Greywiki entry on Stratis ... I see that it includes numerous more arms than I had understood, so I stand corrected. ... I mistakenly thought that Stratis's panoply included no more weapons (or shields) than he has hands, but upon review today, I see that the panoply includes six melee weapons, plus the shield, with additional reference to a thrown dart. Wow, that's a lot of relic weapons!
I had to remember where I gleaned the information from. I also noticed the birth order given for the three gods as well. I am not concerned with the alignment of Stratis we know for certain he is neutral as far as favoring just or unjust war. He delights in the adrenaline rush of the moment the wild frenzy as well as the well planned strategy that was entails. So Stratis was probably on good terms with both his brothers.
Great research Icarus! Finding the birth order is a gem, and it was simple yet brilliant to ask Pramas directly, as well as to recall the limited alignments available in Chainmail.
And thanks for noting your update of the Stratis Greywiki entry. I must have consulted it just after your update and was momentarily flabbergasted, wondering if I'd read too quickly on my first reviews of it -- and deciding that must be the case (although the thought did cross my mind that the wiki might have been updated).
Do we know any more about Marinn's ancient elven blade? It reminds me of Hunger, a bit. Any chance that it's the same as the Longsword of Stratis from his Panoply?
Do we know any more about Marinn's ancient elven blade? It reminds me of Hunger, a bit. Any chance that it's the same as the Longsword of Stratis from his Panoply?
You know, mtg, it's funny that you mention that. When I first began reading stuff from the Sundered Empire, I kind of wondered that myself. I wondered what had killed him and how.
When I go back and read the descriptions of the battle and whatnot, I think that I would have to say that it's not the sword of Stratis. If I try to think about the story as designed by Chris Pramas, I think that it would have been mentioned if Stratis had his sword taken from him before the confrontation. In the cases I've read, it says that Marinn had the sword, and then went to get Stratis.
Of interesting note is the fact that the heroes who attacked Stratis all had artifacts. That's as much as the sword is described, insofar as I know. I can't imagine the power that must have been swinging from the belts of those fellas. I'm thinking that if we knew what all of the "young races" were (or even what the "old races" were), we'd likely be able to count at least 7, if not a dozen, artifacts that were trotted out for battle.
There were many mortal heroes involved. Grench was the only one able to make a significant hole in Stratis armor then Marinn was able to strike Stratis heart with the ancient elven blade (artifact). I wonder if it was made from dragon or demon bone as the dragons were allies with the elves during that time. Hence, the area known as scalebane.
Well on a side note my character Argon had an axe made from a piece of Celene herself. The Silver Moon battle axe. This was given to Argon by a race of cloud giants. When I was referring to demon or dragon bone make I intended for it to be Marinn blade not Grench's axe. However, Grench could of wielded an axe made from loadstone which packed an extra punch.
I wonder from what nation Braddock was and what human subrace?
While I definitely like the fantasy line of thinking for special materials and weapons and whatnot, there is another possibility:
Perhaps Grench rolled a crit on a Sunder attempt.
... or perhaps he'd made several attempts to sunder Stratis' breastplate already, doing some damage, and finally succeeded in sundering it (possibly with the afroementioned crit). A good ol' Greataxe does massive amounts of damage on a crit, and is more than capable of dealing a blow like that on a successful sunder attempt. With three good hits, Grench could easily have done well over 100 HP worth of damage to the breastplate, and add a crit to that, and you're looking at something like 12d12+138 (using Power Attack, and a couple of other optional things like Feats) for a maximum of 282 points of damage to that breastplate. Even presuming that since it's a god's armor, that's still likely enough to rend it, allowing Marinn to do the dirty work. Especially since Stratis was being held by Braddock and Grench, Marinn would've had simply to make the coup d'grace.
Giving this thread a bump, with the thought that if Stratis wasn't killed until CY 586, then one could meet a worshipper of Stratis in the Flanaess until then, a "traveler from afar."
From chapter one of my long-languishing Pantheon of the Great Kingdom article(s), I included a brief mention of Stratis in the section on the the war gods of the Pre-Migration period:
Erythnul himself was not unchallenged as the god of war among the Oeridians of the time, for his cult was beginning to be surpassed by the half-brothers Heironeous and Hextor, who received a great deal of worship during those contentious times. In ancient times, before the migration from the Far West began, the Oeridians worshiped Erythnul as their primary god of warfare. Indeed it seems that he was still worshipped openly in the early days of the Kingdom of Aerdy, as is evidenced by the actions of the Aerdy army after the Battle of Chokestone (3). As regards his fall from the position of the god of war, there are at least two of versions of that tale. In the Hextoran myth he was defeated by Hextor, who teaches that war, though brutal, should be executed with more than the mindless slaughter favored by Erythnul (4). In the Heironean version of Erythnul’s fall, before the half-brothers fell out with each other they overthrew the slaughter-crazed god together. In this story it was partly the praise heaped upon Heironeous after that battle that drove Hextor to jealousy and evil (5). A third, heretical story mentions another deity, known only as the Lost Brother, who helps the other two overthrow Erythnul. This tale is suppressed by the modern churches of both Heironeous and Hextor, wherever it is found, and it is very rarely heard or recorded (6).
Endnotes-
3) Ivid the Undying, p. 49 “The site is that of a great battle between Aerdi men and a small Flan
tribe in -171 CY. The Oeridians were easily triumphant, and an excessively brutal general ordered the torture and sacrifice of all surrendering Flan folk in thanks to Erythnul.”
4) Dragon # 356, p. 47 “Core Beliefs: Hextor”. “In more primitive days Erythnul was the war god of the Oeridian pantheon...” “...eventually the young god (Hextor) wrested the mantle of war god from the elder.”
5) Dragon # 354, p. 28 “Core Beliefs: Heironeous”. “When they were still young, the half-brothers were friends, although Heironeous was fairer and stronger. Eventually, Hextor was consumed with jealousy and anger toward his brother and devoted himself to the powers of evil.”
6) Dragon # 287, p. 88 “Chainmail: The Armies of Thalos”. “She (Stern Alia) is also called the Mother of War because of her three sons: Heironeous the good God of Valor, Hextor the evil God of Tyranny, and Stratis the neutral God of War.” Stratis is the slain god of war in the Sundered Empire setting of the short-lived Chainmail miniature game and is unmentioned in any canon materials detailing the eastern Oerik. Here I use the Lost Brother heresy as a way to refer to Stratis without attempting to make him an active part of culture in the eastern Oerik.
Forgive the thread necromancy, but would anyone care to posit class levels for Stratis’ avatar (in any edition)? I’m thinking some barbarian levels, but what else?
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We'll see if Erythnul and the Pomarj can recover some steam on that original thread. Good call, Argon!
