I watched Greyhawk Grognard's video on the history of Castle Greyhawk's ruins. And I'm wondering, what are your personal takes on the following three products? As in, what shall I get?
* Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk (by Wizards of the Coast)
* WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins (TSR, inc.)
* WG7 Castle Greyhawk
Expedition fails in only one critical way - the central villain isn't the real McCoy. Blah! I changed that for my sake. Yes, it was enjoyable.
WGR1... how much time do you and can the repetitive nature of a lengthy dungeon keep your PCs' attention? I'd weed out the number of rooms to only the critical ones that advance the story you're telling. Yes, it was enjoyable.
Both of these will require you to season to taste.
WG7... just no. Don't waste your money. If you get it for free, don't waste your time. There's nothing to salvage either IMHO.
I agree with Skech's assessment, but will add a little.
Greyhawk Ruins really is a fantastic mega-dungeon, but takes a bit of work by the DM to make it believable. IIRC, one level has about 30 minotaurs controlling, and living in, 7 or 8 rooms while 50 orogs control, and live in, an adjoining 7 or 8 rooms. These two groups fight each other for control of more rooms. This is not believable at all, since neither group could possibly survive. It hearkens back to the old modules that had a random assortment of rooms with a new monster in each one and a few empty rooms for the DM to populate as s/he saw fit.
On the other hand, there is a story, of sorts for each of the three towers. Like Skech said, if you focus on the story in each tower and get rid of extraneous/extra encounters that really don't belong, your PCs will have a more believable adventure.
Expedition focuses on a new storyline that sends the (higher level) PCs through a set series of rooms. It is ostensibly set to occur after the original dungeons (Greyhawk Ruins) have been cleared.
Castle Greyhawk (WG7) is a spoof adventure that isn't even good at its intended purpose. Don't waste your players' time with it.
WGR1 is the best version of the Castle Greyhawk to date. It's also the biggest and most complete dungeon ever published by TSR/WOTC (with the possible exception of 5e's Dungeon of the Mad Mage which is huge but suffers from Undermountain's forever incompleteness). Extremely easy to pick up and play with a great, space-saving paragraph format. Lots of plot hooks, mysterious characters, and work for the DM to do to make it their own. Authors got a fair amount of advice from James Ward and did their diligence with what had been published about CG, only missing the Gord references. Maps have excellent three-dimensionality (shafts, pits, ramps, terraces, etc), which is one of the most important features of compelling dungeons.
It's important to run such a dungeon as a sandbox, like ToEE, and not and endless dungeon crawl. There's great potential to tie WGR1 to the WGA series, with characters beginning as simple treasure seekers in the dungeons and slowly discovering bits about Iuz while exploring Greyhawk between forays, then becoming embroiled in the WGA Falcon series. The WGA modules are flawed and need work, but are worth the time spent modifying.
The few cons of WGR1 stem from TSR policies at the time, namely, satanic-panic whitewashing and the authors couldn't reference out-of-print products. Together this limited monster selection to a handful of the first MC appendices. The result is extremely "PG" and desperately cries to DM's to go through and sprinkle demons, weird critter from Fiend Folio, and more spooky sundries, then add the connections to EX1, EX2, WG6, the Enigma of Greyhawk, and fraz urb'luu. Also, the maps have some inconveniences and be sure to track down the color-coded elevation key.
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WG7 you can certainly skip, but it's cheap used and available POD on DTRPG, so why not pick it up? I used the levels as one-shots for a few years on occasional weeks when my group wanted to play but numerous players were absent. Like any anthology, some chapters can be skipped and a couple are truly outstanding and could even be added to WGR1. Level 9 is particularly awesome.
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Expedition does not cover the whole dungeon like WGR1. It's an example of how to use the dungeons for a conventional campaign. It's also a city sourcebook and update to Greyhawk City as the authors were rightfully concerned Greyhawk might not get any official support for a long time. Good for 3e players and DM's who want a traditional campaign. Also good for lore and easter eggs for any Greyhawk DM. Not good for those looking for the complete dungeon. It's also very railroady, with multiple scripted encounters with demigods where players do nothing. Finally, I greatly dislike the 3.5e format where encounters with a handful of hobgoblins devour two full pages with stat blocks and tactical maps. The format was designed to sell accessories at the time and adds little value to classic players accustomed to modules like G1-3 and WGR1.
And which Castle do you want? I see:
Original from 1973
Expanded from 1976
I have an idea for creating one from the released Gygax material from 1979 including T1, S4, The Official AD&D Coloring Album where Homlet becomes the City of Greyhawk, the Moathouse becomes Castle Greyhawk, T1-4 levels of the temple become levels 1-4, Kurtz S4 map becomes Level 7, OD&D sample map becomes level 9, Tomb of Ra-Hotep becomes level 13, Bottle City becomes level 2, Kurtz Black Reservoir becomes level 7.5. Or instead use B2 keep for City of Greyhawk, Caves of Chaos as levels 1, 2, and 3, DMG Sample Level or Tomb of Ra-Hotep, or T2 because of presence of gnolls for level 4, S4 for level 7, and OD&D Sample Level, EX1&EX2 in south for level 8.
An examination of the Coloring Book as a basis for creating a Castle Greyhawk led me to note:
Story text refers to maps that PCs are using. Provide player maps for route from the City of Greyhawk to Castle Greyhawk, Castle Greyhawk Level 1 map from page 11 in the gh_seminar--history_of_castle_greyhawk--garycon_vi--2013b.pdf file, map of the Tomb of Ra-Hotep (page 43 of .pdf), map to level 7.5 (Black Resevoir), to area 7 on OD&D Sample Level map.
Page 2: Story part of coloring book starts at Green Dragon inn in the City of Greyhawk.
Page 4: Ruined keep: Castle Greyhawk. In 1979, that would be the expanded version of the castle. It's probably still based on Bodenburg. So image on page 5 is wrong or depicts some other tower.
Page 6: Says party descends into storerooms. Zagyg map shows storerooms. The gh_seminar--history_of_castle_greyhawk--garycon_vi--2013b.pdf file shows Zagyg storerooms map matches Castle Greyhawk Level 1 map. If using front and back covers for Greyhawk, then red dragon should be inside castle. Use Tomb of Ra-Hotep for level 4. Maybe use Castle Zazyg 101-A to access Tomb of Ra-Hotep. Have skeleton as wandering monster.
Page 8: Introduces night hag into same room as lich.
Page 10: Story introduces beholder on black river. Use Black Reservoir from El Raja Key Archive.
Page 12: tablet with runes transports reader to "airy reaches of the either that rims the higher planes." Griffon gives pearl of foreseeing to reader on behalf of ki-rin.
Page 14: Umber hulk encounter can happen on Temple of the Latter Day Old Ones level 8.
Page 18: map ends here. So party should have a player's map with four exits. So maybe map should drop down into OD&D Sample Level manuscript map's room 7.
Page 20: Use Temple of the Latter Day Old Ones level 8 for Endless Battle encounter or
Page 22: Use Temple of the Latter Day Old Ones level 8 for The Ettin encounter or use T2's Level 3
Page 24: Use Temple of the Latter Day Old Ones level 8 for Four Encounters or T2's map for the node of fire.
Page 26: Use Temple of the Latter Day Old Ones level 8 for The Wizard encounter or OD&D Sample area 2.
Page 28: For Tiamat encounter, Dragon Level. Use unfinished dragon level map as map for plane depicted in D&D cartoon for Tiamat's lair.
Page 30: For Adventure's End, use tunnel from Evil Tower from El Raja Key Archive. [Where should it connect in Castle Greyhawk?]
As people have said, just say no to WG7.
There are maybe 3 segments that are functional, and maybe 3 more that are salvageable for a Wonderland type adventure, but it is nothing about the kind of dungeon we were led to expect.
Expedition primarily suffers from the late 3.5 Delve Format they use, which makes encounters absurdly bloated in layout and page count, and often redundant with statblocks. As a result of that, the actual dungeon is a bunch of sketchy and only loosely connected encounter areas rather than a full-on old-school crawl. Further, several key plot elements are less than stellar in form and function.
WGR1 Ruins is the most complete version of a mega-dungeon. Unfortunately, it seems to have been rushed out and the last dungeon is rather unfinished. It also suffers from a poor decision on the maps. They have no grid and they are offset 45 degrees. On the good side, they are nicely color coded for internal level variations. Which would be awesome if they were really useable. The main plots of the first two parts are also somewhat forced, and could use more than a bit of customization.
I was hoping for something close to the original. According to Samwise's assessment, all three dungeons are lacking. The only one to get is WGR1.
Thanks everyone, I think I won't run a campaign set in Castle Greyhawk right now. Perhaps in the future, maybe. I was really hoping to get Expedition to Castle Greyhawk and WGR1 Ruins in the future. I may still be able to, after I'm paid.
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