I had an Idea for an Arcane trickster I'm building (at least he will be a trickster once I get the levels) and I think this fits perfectly with the title at the very least more so than the powers of the class.
Basically it's a bluff check to fool a caster watching and identifying the spell being cast to think it's another spell.
example: casting the Illusion of a wall of Iron but the caster bluffs the other guy into thinking he really did cast the real thing when all he used was the 1st level silent image.
What would the DC for that be?
Certainly a bluff check would be involved perhaps similar to the slight of hand requirements. DC 20 +spell level to achive the effect and if you fail by more than 5 you loose the spell. Of course an opposed sense motive to identify the real spell will be free to the spell watcher.
Perhaps another limitation would be that the spell being imitated must be a spell known to the wizard/sorcerer. Hmm perhaps the DC should be 20 for spells not known and 15 for spells known.
The easiest way to do it is use the caster's Bluff check set the DC for the observer to correctly ID the spell with Spellcraft.
For example, the 1st level illusion has a Splelcraft DC to identify (15+spell level) of 16. The Bluff (or possibly Sleight of Hand) check replaces this. If the Bluff check fails to meet the Spellcraft DC that the Bluffer wants to imitate, ie rolls an 18 trying to imitate a 5th level (Spellcraft DC 20) spell, the observer will know the caster tried to bluff (but will not know the actual spell cast) if he beats the normal Spellcraft DC but fails to beat the Bluff check.
Sense Motive may provide a synergy bonus for this Spellcraft check.
I really don't think spellcraft is the correct skill to counter this manuver.
If you can't see through the bluff (I think slight of hand is actually more appropriate now that ya got me thinking) your spellcraft check comes up wrong not because you dosn't understand what your looking for but because the "magician" knows what your looking for and how to fool you. That being said I think that 5 ranks in spellcraft and sense motive should give you a 2pt bonus each on your spot check because you know what your looking for. But if you fail the spot and fail the spellcraft afterward you don't even know what he was pretending to mimic much less the actual spell.
Putting it that way I think now that slight of hand is definitly the more appropriate skill. Also I think the DC of 15 is way too low, but after thinking about it I think the way to do it that really fits well (in my mind anyway.)
That is start with a DC of 25 + spell level However....
Each component (V/S/M) not in the spell lowers the DC by 5. I.E. Since there are no material components of Magic Missle it lowers the DC by 5 to 21. Even better no material components of magic missle combined with still spell lowers the DC to 16 and if you can remove all the Verbal Somantic and Material components of a spell the DC is 10+spell level to fake it, but that dosn't mean he won't be able to see through it easier if you roll that low wince your setting the DC of the spot check.
Hmm... with that in mind on a subject that directly ties into this:
If you use one of the metamaggic feats still, silent, or eschew materials shouldn't that increase the DC to identify a spell other than just the level adjustment? After all your removing a component of the spell. what if you removed all of them? I.E. Silent image cast with all three metamagic feats applied. The DC should not be 19 as a 4th level spell any spell cast that way should be super difficult to identify since all you really did was think about the spell.
Actually Spellcraft is the correct skill to use if someone is trying to discern the type of spell, Spot would be used if they attempt to discern any weaknesses or declared they disbelieved the illusion.
When the caster is applying an illusion to take the place of solid matter in this case. I would make the following modifications...
The caster makes a Spellcraft roll to apply the spell (esp one of lower level) to form the solid object and make it seem more real. The spells level figures into this (a 1st level illusion being used to duplicate a 5th level spell would give the caster a +4 to his/ her Spellcraft DC, (Ex. DC 11 + 4 = 19).
Normally, to identify it at this level w/o Bluff the Spellcraft or Spot DC would be 15 + spell level +4 = ? (the 4 is for the added objective of the caster expending their mental force to bend and disorient their foe).
In this case, the DC would be 19.
Now if the caster has ranks in Bluff that they want to use to apply this change, first make the Spellcraft roll as listed above for the caster. Then the caster makes a separate Bluff check to Bluff the enemy (vs. foes Sense Motive), the bluff is really added into the spell but applies common knowledge (in this case what a wall looks like in an inperfect form).
The bluff adds a +2 competence modifier to the Spellcraft/ Spot DC making the DC 21, in this case. But in any other case use this equation.
15 + spell level +4 (circumstance modifier) + 2 (competence modifier)= DC ?
The problem with requiring the observer to make both a
spot (though Sense Motive would be more appropriate for the purpose) and a Spellcraft is that the player now knows the caster is attempting to trick him.
A failed Spellcraft roll provides a yes/no, not a yes/no/maybe response. You either know what the spell is or you don't. Adding anything to the system that will changes the certainty of the yes/no answer. The point of the bluff is to exploit this, not make a change to yes/no/maybe that undermines the intent of Spellcraft.
The problem with the Sense Motive + Spellcraft is that Spellcraft may be used as a reaction to determine what a spell is as it's cast. Sense Motive requires at least a minute. Thus, it may not be used out of a character's turn, and would only be of real use in reflection.
I think in general as is the case for any slight of hand check (weather palming a ring or picking a pocket) the roll should be made in secret by the DM since the players might be tempted not to "roleplay" accordingly.
When was the last time someone bumped into your character at a tavern and the DM called for a spot check? Same thing.
Sleight of Hand is a possibility. But I think we're getting a little off task. I do think Bluff works best for the maniplation of movements though Sleight of Hand is a close second.
Now the important thing to remember here is that we are talking about manipulating a spell and how it is cast. In doing so, very few skills are set to abjugate such actions.
So far I agree with a few things in particular, The roll should be made by the DM. AND the player should not meta-game even if they guess they are being manipulated their character doesn't always know that. Also, Spellcraft gives you the school of the spell, just as Spellcraft does it doesnt give a yes or no at all. Spellcraft is the ONE skill though can can diffuse any illusion if the character uses it b/c it gives the school and can give you the spell itself on a good roll with a wizard.
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