What the heck? Vesper is higher level than Turin!?!
Also Turin was a fighter assassin, and is already noted as level 18 in late 2E when he left the assassins guild for the Shieldlands. (and started heading the merc company IIRC). And Vesper was a mage-thief in 2E!
I`d do them thusly:
Turin:
Ftr10/Rog4/Asn4 (with the Last Survivor character concept from Quint Fighter, i.e. he gets a favored Enemy and loses heavy armour IIRC)
or alternatively: Ftr8/Rgr3/Rog4/Asn3
Vesper: Rog3/Wiz10/Asn3
You`re missing Lassiviren the Dark: Human Rog4/Ftr4/Asn7 (Dungeon 114, p.102) He escaped from teh Greyhawk prison in 587. Current whereabouts unknown..
Also I think adapting the Guildthief 5 level PrC to Greyhawk is a good idea.
Mayor Nerof Gasgal: Rog9/Gld4.
The Thieves Guild Guildmaster would have Gld5.
Obviously a lot of work went into this site and depending on the campaign it should prove to be very useful indeed. In the Greyhawk I run I have epic personages to be the rarest of the rare, with not more than perhaps 10 or so in the game at any one time (and good luck for the players getting there, you have to be something 'special' to make it to 21st or higher level.
Anyway, nice work (I do agree with the Turin comment, is would most certainly be higher level than Vesper).
First off these two were a difficult conversion. The old assassin class was removed from early 2e making for a sloppy conversion. However, in 3.5e, even a 10th level a fighter would NOT have the necessary cross class skill points to even qualify for Assassin, this imho does not work, so I had to offer a compromise of style, and given his association with Nerof and the Thieves Guild of Greyhawk, I chose the fast way to this goal was Rogue Levels.
Also as bdpenny mentioned, I was trying to keep many characters from reaching epic levels. I kept Turin at a lower level than Vesper b/c Turin was involved within the guild for far longer time. Vesper is also older than Turin and hasn't spent all that time in GH city, running the Assassin's Guilds daily rigors doesn't allow for a whole lot of travel, as we have seen when Turin finally decided to leave. Now alternatively, we could level him up since he's left GH City and has been in the action, but doing so would only equal him out to Vesper.
old version -Turin Deathstalker; LN; Human male Ftr4/Rog2/ Asn10**
new version - Turin Deathstalker; LN; Human male Ftr8/Rog2/Asn10
As for Lassiveren he's in Highport, it stated he fled south in Dungeon, so I had him hiding out in Highport, safely within the Pomarj's reach and out of the Domain of GH. Given his background this is solid reasoning.
As for the other sources I simply don't use them, I stay with core sources as GH is the core setting, that and adding outside PrC's from other resources would only confuse everyone even more. Not that I don't like them, but for this its best to keep things basic.
First off these two were a difficult conversion. The old assassin class was removed from early 2e making for a sloppy conversion. However, in 3.5e, even a 10th level a fighter would NOT have the necessary cross class skill points to even qualify for Assassin, this imho does not work, so I had to offer a compromise of style, and given his association with Nerof and the Thieves Guild of Greyhawk, I chose the fast way to this goal was Rogue Levels.
But he does't need to be a pure fighter. OTOH he does not neccessarily need the Assassin PrC. (Same problem as with Entreri in the Realms) In 2E there was a kit for fighter assassins in dragon. His history opints to some Rog levels though (as does the conversion booklet advice when one gives him the fighter-assassin kit):
He learned from an Orc in the Bandit Kingdoms. So he probably got some fighter training there but probably also some Rogue, since he learned assassination and killed the whole tribe later. Afterwards he also learned the finer points of assassination and disguise in the Horned Society (giving him more Rogue and his first assassin levels from that time but probably also some fighter levels). Then he came to Greyhawk and later took to lead the guild.
Anyways i don't see either Turin or Vesper having completed the Asn PrC. Even Lassiviren who was/is the thief-assassin in 1E hasn't done it. And these two don't need it either. They're both very effective assassins with some rogue levels perhaps a few Asn levels and their respective other skills.
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Also as bdpenny mentioned, I was trying to keep many characters from reaching epic levels. I kept Turin at a lower level than Vesper b/c Turin was involved within the guild for far longer time. Vesper is also older than Turin and hasn't spent all that time in GH city, running the Assassin's Guilds daily rigors doesn't allow for a whole lot of travel, as we have seen when Turin finally decided to leave.
Vesper's being older doesn't count or all demihumans would be epic. In 2E VEsper was just around 10th level albeit multiclassed, whereas Turin was 15th in GHAdv, and 18th level in tAB. Turin's involvement with the guild sure didn't hinder him in travelling. He even did several trips to the Pomarj and/or the Bandit Lands and went orc/goblinoid killing in his holiday time (GHAdv). Also the guild is quite small and i believe he did a lot of it's work by himself (for example to catch Lassiviren when that one wanted to assassinate Nerof). Turin also got around a lot before and was probably already higher level than Vesper when he took his position in the guild.
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Now alternatively, we could level him up since he's left GH City and has been in the action, but doing so would only equal him out to Vesper.
Well he sure did level up after leaving, as his 18th level stats are given after he has travelled to the shieldlands and taken the mercs under his wing. He was probably 16th level before. I don't see where such a big boost in level for Vesper would have come from.. He was 10th level and the conversion of multiclassed characters perhaps gets him to 13th or 14th. But i wouldn't put him much higher. He's not the legend tha Turin is/was. Yet. Also with his wizard levels he still is a very efficient assassin.
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old version -Turin Deathstalker; LN; Human male Ftr4/Rog2/ Asn10**
new version - Turin Deathstalker; LN; Human male Ftr8/Rog2/Asn10
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As for Lassiveren he's in Highport, it stated he fled south in Dungeon, so I had him hiding out in Highport, safely within the Pomarj's reach and out of the Domain of GH. Given his background this is solid reasoning.
Ah, i didn't catch that one.
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As for the other sources I simply don't use them, I stay with core sources as GH is the core setting, that and adding outside PrC's from other resources would only confuse everyone even more. Not that I don't like them, but for this its best to keep things basic.
All I can tell you is that I offer these as a reference. Do with it as you will though. I can't think of anywhere else that has a reference list this big. If you don't like whats there...simple change it the way...YOU want it.
Its as simple as that. My material is based after canon but is not 100% foolproof nor is it meant to be the bible in terms of GH. GH has been and always will be maleable by one source above all others, the DM. _________________ Cheerz,
-Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
http://www.oerthjournal.comhttp://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
The effort you put into your work shows quite well. Im have'nt been a Dm long but what youve posted will come in handy if I need to have the basics despite what "OTHERS" think.
I really like your work.
Last edited by Gahennachild on Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
If there something wrong with the server your files are hosted on? Every time I try to open one of your npc rtf files, I keep getting an IE message that says "Internet Explorer was not able to open this internet site. The requested site is either unavailable or cannot be found."
Having seen what you did with npc and magic item conversions on your old Geocities site, I look forward to seeing the new batch.
It could be that either the server was being worked on, or that your connection wasn't allowing you to open documents.
I suggest right clicking and using the Save File As option, rather than opening the file directly into IE anyway.
And thanks for the compliment man, its much appreciated. I usually try and post my updates here so everyone can see them. =) _________________ Cheerz,
-Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
http://www.oerthjournal.comhttp://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
Vesper's being older doesn't count or all demihumans would be epic. In 2E VEsper was just around 10th level albeit multiclassed, whereas Turin was 15th in GHAdv, and 18th level in tAB. Turin's involvement with the guild sure didn't hinder him in travelling. He even did several trips to the Pomarj and/or the Bandit Lands and went orc/goblinoid killing in his holiday time (GHAdv). Also the guild is quite small and i believe he did a lot of it's work by himself (for example to catch Lassiviren when that one wanted to assassinate Nerof). Turin also got around a lot before and was probably already higher level than Vesper when he took his position in the guild.
Would it help to know that Vesper is around 450 years old now and a gray elf!?
Vesper from COG: FFF, Wiz7/Rog7. No mention of Assassin levels, so uhm how did he become an asassin? =P
Anyway, if you want to change it for your own campaign thats fine, but in order to qualify to be in the assassin's guild, imc you better be an Assassin.
I am editing his stats as follows from my site...
-old version: Vesparian Lafanel "Vesper", Assassins Guildmaster; N; Gray-elf male Rog10/Asn10
-new version: Vesparian Lafanel "Vesper", Assassins Guildmaster; N; Gray-elf male Wiz7/Rog2/Asn7 (this also shows, his Asn level progression, as well as his arcane background.)
Turin is also now 18th level.
Turin Deathstalker; LN; human male Ftr8/Rog2/ Asn8
Vesper's being older doesn't count or all demihumans would be epic. In 2E VEsper was just around 10th level albeit multiclassed, whereas Turin was 15th in GHAdv, and 18th level in tAB. Turin's involvement with the guild sure didn't hinder him in travelling. He even did several trips to the Pomarj and/or the Bandit Lands and went orc/goblinoid killing in his holiday time (GHAdv). Also the guild is quite small and i believe he did a lot of it's work by himself (for example to catch Lassiviren when that one wanted to assassinate Nerof). Turin also got around a lot before and was probably already higher level than Vesper when he took his position in the guild.
Would it help to know that Vesper is around 450 years old now and a gray elf!?
Actually no. As i said this is a rules-problem all demihumans have. Since they are much longer lived than humans, why aren't all elves and dwarves epic level?
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Vesper from COG: FFF, Wiz7/Rog7. No mention of Assassin levels, so uhm how did he become an asassin? =P
I of course applied the Rogue-Assassin kit to him from the Complete Rogue Handbook. :-)
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Anyway, if you want to change it for your own campaign thats fine, but in order to qualify to be in the assassin's guild, imc you better be an Assassin.
Fair enough.
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I am editing his stats as follows from my site...
-old version: Vesparian Lafanel "Vesper", Assassins Guildmaster; N; Gray-elf male Rog10/Asn10
-new version: Vesparian Lafanel "Vesper", Assassins Guildmaster; N; Gray-elf male Wiz7/Rog2/Asn7 (this also shows, his Asn level progression, as well as his arcane background.)
Turin is also now 18th level.
Turin Deathstalker; LN; human male Ftr8/Rog2/ Asn8
Much better. Turin has to be more powerful i.e. higher level than Vesper. I like the reduced Asn levels too. They're in the league of Lassiviren's so they being peers makes sense.
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As always if this isn't to your tastes change it to what would fit your campaign.
Of course.
Don't understand me wrong. I like what you do and most of the NPC conversions are cool! I really appreciate the effort and that you make it all available for the community.
It's just that i have been playing around with 3E stat for these guys for a long time, dug up all the info i could from all the books and played around with different builds. Thus I have my own thoughts about them. If i ever get around to finsihing my stats for these two I'll make sure to post them here too...
well sometimes I can't tell whats sarcasm, criticism, or outright nitpicking/ complaining. Understanding the difference is kinda tough. But I do appreaciate that you bothered to take a look, the criticisim helps me get a better perspective, b/c I just had to convert and research well over 32 pages of NPC's eeep! heh
If you find any grevious errors feel free to PM them to me so I can get them quickly. =)
The 2e to 3e conversion booklet suggests that for multi-classed characters that you take the highest class level, and add half of each other class level(rounded down I think) to that level to get the character's new total levels.
For example, a 2e Elven fighter mage of levels 9/9 would translate to having 13 total levels(9+(9x.5)= 13) in 3e. A 2e Elven fighter/mage/thief of levels 9/8/10 would translate to having 18 (10+4(9x.5)+4(8x.5)= 18) levels as a 3e character. You can see how those triple-classed characters really get a boost, so I just use these conversions as a general guideline.
I usually just go by experience points, translate the level, and add one level for each additional class a multi-classed character had. The 2e f/m/t of levels 9/8/10 would translate to 10+1+1= 12th level in 3e, which usually ends up being 1 level higher than a converted character with only a single class. The "jack-of-all-trades, master of none" aspect of dividing up the character's previous classes among the new total levels balances them out nicely in 3e+ imo. The one level bonus is not much of a bonus in the end. Even still cleric/mages and other multi-class spell users nearly always see a loss of spell ability in one of their classes through the 2e-3e+ conversion process. making use of the Mystic Theurge PrC helps alleviates most of this, but at a loss of class abilities.
I see Turin with fighter, ranger, rogue, and assassin levels. More ranger than rogue perhaps, as he seems to have spent most of his formative years in the wilds of the Horned Society, and little time in Molag. he's spent more time in the City of Greyhawk since, so perhaps has picked up on some rogue skills a bit more. in any event he is a powerful and deadly dangerous individual. As commander of the Safeton forces, we see him in a strong militant leadership role. It makes sense to me that he might personally undertake the training of some of the more gifted insurgents under his command- scouts, guerrillas, assassins, and other such individuals. Otherwise, he is too busy making clandestine use of his political influence and contacts to do much of anything else.
So, perhaps Turin might look something like this level-wise imo:
Fighter: level 5-8. He has mad combat skillz.
Ranger: level 3-6. He WILL find you! Suits his namesake to the "T", as well as complimenting his history of disappearing into the wilds (where is is obviously very comfortable) for weeks on end to "take the edge off".
Rogue: level 1-3. In dealing with all those unsavory folks, he's bound to pick up a few things.
Assassin: level 6-8. He's an accomplished killer. Not many assassins wipe out whole tribes of humanoids while on holiday...numerous times.
That is just my humble opinion on Turin. Between all of his levels and all of the skills and feats that entails, he is very good at what he does. He is also the only assassin character I see as possibly having the Leadership feat as well.
By the way, great list Duicarthan! It will be very useful as a reference for reminding oneself where most of the notable Greyhawk npc's are currently hanging out. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
The 2e to 3e conversion booklet suggests that for multi-classed characters that you take the highest class level, and add half of each other class level(rounded down I think) to that level to get the character's new total levels.
Actually it says you add one third of every additional class for multiclassed demihumans. I have no idea how to convert dual classed humans. Giving them their full levels might be a bit much, so probably you should do it as with the multiclassed ones. Of course adding a level or two for campaign progression is often in order.
I also find the advice on converting character kits quite useful. I.e. Swashbuckler rogue kit? -->take some fighter levels. Assassin fighter kit? --Y> take some Rog/Asn levels.
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For example, a 2e Elven fighter mage of levels 9/9 would translate to having 13 total levels(9+(9x.5)= 13) in 3e. A 2e Elven fighter/mage/thief of levels 9/8/10 would translate to having 18 (10+4(9x.5)+4(8x.5)= 18) levels as a 3e character. You can see how those triple-classed characters really get a boost, so I just use these conversions as a general guideline.
F/M 9/9 --> 9+3 = 12 total levels, probably F3/M9 to retain the caster level. (or get some Eldritch knight!)
Generally you'll have to decide which class to reduce. Dual casters get the shaft as they loose caster level in one of their classes even with the patching PrCs. (Mystic Theurge etc...) Fighter is ok to be reduced most of it's fetures are additive, Rogue is in the middle somewhere...
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I see Turin with fighter, ranger, rogue, and assassin levels. More ranger than rogue perhaps, as he seems to have spent most of his formative years in the wilds of the Horned Society, and little time in Molag. he's spent more time in the City of Greyhawk since, so perhaps has picked up on some rogue skills a bit more. in any event he is a powerful and deadly dangerous individual. As commander of the Safeton forces, we see him in a strong militant leadership role. It makes sense to me that he might personally undertake the training of some of the more gifted insurgents under his command- scouts, guerrillas, assassins, and other such individuals. Otherwise, he is too busy making clandestine use of his political influence and contacts to do much of anything else.
So, perhaps Turin might look something like this level-wise imo:
Fighter: level 5-8. He has mad combat skillz.
Ranger: level 3-6. He WILL find you! Suits his namesake to the "T", as well as complimenting his history of disappearing into the wilds (where is is obviously very comfortable) for weeks on end to "take the edge off".
Rogue: level 1-3. In dealing with all those unsavory folks, he's bound to pick up a few things.
Assassin: level 6-8. He's an accomplished killer. Not many assassins wipe out whole tribes of humanoids while on holiday...numerous times.
That is just my humble opinion on Turin. Between all of his levels and all of the skills and feats that entails, he is very good at what he does. He is also the only assassin character I see as possibly having the Leadership feat as well.
I agree on everything except the high assassin levels. You don't need the Asn PrC to be a killer! Perhaps 1-4 levels to get the poison use and death attack features. But feinting, sneak attack, a high BAB, Str, and impr crit go along way in assassination. Not to mention Arrows of Death. As for the orc/goblinoid-killing sprees, Favored Enemy and that shortsword of his should take care of that. He could pick up Rangery skills from the other classes but giving him a few levels is also an option. The low level Assassin spells even work out for him, but not the higher level ones. In this he is quite similar to Artemsi Entreri, the Realm's foremost assassin, who is a lso a fighter foremost, and has only few Asn levels and in fact doesn't really need them. They're more for flavor, buildwise they are almost a crutch.
And yes he definately has the Leadership feat. Vesper was his cohort IMO, but now that he left the guild he has a new organization he's building up and IMC a new cohort...
Well I have thought about ranger for Turin actually. But my biggest dilemmas there are...
Where did he learn it? I usually don't hand out levels to any character unless they have a teacher of some sort. So...who's his teacher? Where did he learn his ranger skills?
Rogue skills I can see that he learned, and the Fighter skills, and Asn. But ranger throws me for a loop. Is there any source in canon to list where he might have learned this or a possible area he could have learned it?
Also I use the conversion book lightly, very lightly. Example we'll say Melf used to be able to cast 5th level spells in 2e, but you convert him and now he can cast only 2nd level spells...so you now have to forego all his fighter levels just to retain his caster levels. To me the Conversion booklet was made more for converting PC's, rather than NPC's. If the booklet is used, I suggest maybe halving their overall levels, but in the case of Caster Levels keep their caster levels the same so that they can at least cast the spells they used to. Ex. I would stink if Melf could no longer cast 2nd level spells, when he created Melf's Acid Arrow! =/
Also, where I can, I edit their levels down to a logical equivelent. But in most cases I look at their old levels, their mentality, their activity levels, and how many years have passed since they leveled up. I have a scale used for leveling up that I'll have to post here one day.
Well I have thought about ranger for Turin actually. But my biggest dilemmas there are...
Where did he learn it? I usually don't hand out levels to any character unless they have a teacher of some sort. So...who's his teacher? Where did he learn his ranger skills?
Rogue skills I can see that he learned, and the Fighter skills, and Asn. But ranger throws me for a loop. Is there any source in canon to list where he might have learned this or a possible area he could have learned it?
As he's an evil ranger there can be no real precedent in 2E canon for a teacher. But evil rangers make for some nice assassins. His first teacher was an orc assassin and he was living among an orc tribe in the bandit kingdoms then. It would nicely explain his favored enemy bonuses : he learned to hate them(his hatred of orcs/goblinoids is well documented in canon), how to read them and how to act among them by living among them. Also after kiling his tribe he had to get along alone for some time in the wilds. That accounts nicely for the first ranger level. Later his "holiday trips" and self-training got him another one or two levels of ranger...
3 Rgr levels work out beautifully statwise and flavorwise. (Well except for animal empathy perhaps.)
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Also I use the conversion book lightly, very lightly. Example we'll say Melf used to be able to cast 5th level spells in 2e, but you convert him and now he can cast only 2nd level spells...so you now have to forego all his fighter levels just to retain his caster levels. To me the Conversion booklet was made more for converting PC's, rather than NPC's. If the booklet is used, I suggest maybe halving their overall levels, but in the case of Caster Levels keep their caster levels the same so that they can at least cast the spells they used to. Ex. I would stink if Melf could no longer cast 2nd level spells, when he created Melf's Acid Arrow! =/
It is of course only a guideline. But it works quite well most of the time. As i said, with spellcaster multiclassed npcs you normally keep the spellcasting class level and reduce the other classes. It does make sense to reduce his fighter levels now that those abilities like BAB stack. He only needs a few of those anyways... He should of course be able to cast his name spells. IIRC Otto's LGJ0 conversion couldn't cast Otto's irresistable dance!!! But then again they did drop all of the names from the spells in 3.5... Shame on WOTC!!!
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Also, where I can, I edit their levels down to a logical equivelent. But in most cases I look at their old levels, their mentality, their activity levels, and how many years have passed since they leveled up. I have a scale used for leveling up that I'll have to post here one day.
That of course does make sense. Some of the NPCs where updated to 3E in LGGaz and some did advance in levels already during 2E. (Turin for example is 15th level in GHAdv and 18th in tAB)
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