I'm looking to run a lengthy session in the Sterich area. I plan to run the Istivin series from Dungeon magazine and Red Hand of Doom. Additionally, I want to run the either the GDQ series or the Against the Giants: the Liberation of Geoff... or both, if I can arrange it.
I have played the GDQ series decades ago, but I have never experienced AtG:tLoG. Which plays better? Which is more interesting? I'm concerned that my players may get bored with excessive Giant encounters, but that my prove unfounded.
I'm not sure in which order to run these adventures as yet, but I am looking for imput from those that have experienced any of these adventures... pitfalls, holes in plots, and possible linkage. I know this is a lot to consider, but I really want to soak up the Sterich experience. If you think that I may have missed a choice adventure set in Sterich, let me know.
Please and thank you for your responses in advance.
SKECH
BTW: CruelSummerLord... thanks for the Grey Skeleton bits regarding Sterich.
I have run each of these several times. Using the original modules (not the GDQ supermod) there is very little to connect the mods themselves, not to mention connecting to the surrounding countryside. (don't get me wrong-this is my favorite series!) Some players I've had weren't... creative enough... to find all the ins and outs of G1-2-3 and had a hard time linking the three. tLoG has a lot more information. Now, granted it came in with the '98 material so it's not 'classic material' but it does have all of the original mods included. The biggest changes are the addition of a 'mini-campaign' setting. Geoff is given a lot of detail, and there are hundreds of adventure hooks for parties to take on the giants - and only the giants (hence liberating Geoff!), but does little justice in showcasing the drow. All in all, it's going to depend on what your party likes. The G series is a MASSIVE classic dungeon crawl, where tLoG gives you a lot more options for role playing and 'outdoor adventuring'.
(how do you think I got my sig!! Midwood is the BEST...) _________________ Michael Erin Sandar Bard of Midwood
My current campaign, Shadows on the March, is set in Sterich. I'm adapting the Dungeon campaign arc in a post-liberation CY 590, which is four year earlier than the CY 594 indicated in the campaign arc.
While I like Greg Vaughn's work generally, I've found much with which I disagree such as the layout of Sterich's towns, villages, and roads; the map of Istivin; and the powers / identity of the Malgoth.
Still, I've found all the adventures very useful. I've never owned / read AtG: tLoG, so I can't speak to that in detail, but I understand it to have a good set of mini-adventures, mostly based in former Geoff. I think it probably has some details about Sterich, however.
The original AtG series, whether by itself or part of the GDQ supermodule, provide the conditions later revisted by AtG: tLoG and the campaign arc, so I think it'd be relatively difficult / time-consuming for you not to run those modules first.
From my point of view, it comes down to the kind of setting you want to create, and the kind of campaign you believe your players will most enjoy.
Is it better for them to be the original heroes, defending a buccolic land from the ravages of giants and humanoids, or will the appreciate the history of strife in Sterich--the dark mysteries of Istivin, and the pall of recent / current warfare?
Because I enjoy Greyhawk's history greatly and decided that I'd prefer a non-wartime campaign, I set Shadows on the March a few years after Sterich's liberation. If I'd preferred a wartime game, I'd have set it in the CY 585-88 recovery years.
My decision was greatly influenced by Greg's campaign arc, which I originally planned to use to test a new gaming group--running a few adventures at a high-ish level to see if we worked well together. However, once I really analyzed the campaign arc's adventures (and given our once every two weeks at best schedule), Shadows on the March has become my main campaign--a little higher level than I prefer, but all in all quite fun.
Okay that's enough. Give me a better sense of what you want to do, and I'll try to help out more.
The biggest changes are the addition of a 'mini-campaign' setting. Geoff is given a lot of detail, and there are hundreds of adventure hooks for parties to take on the giants - and only the giants (hence liberating Geoff!), but does little justice in showcasing the drow. All in all, it's going to depend on what your party likes. The G series is a MASSIVE classic dungeon crawl, where tLoG gives you a lot more options for role playing and 'outdoor adventuring'.
(how do you think I got my sig!! Midwood is the BEST...)
Some of the material from the Living Greyhawk Geoff website is good too. It helps add some more details to the area.
There was also some discussions on the Drow in Greyhawk on these boards and site. The article on Canonfire on the Drow cities in Greyhawk is really cool and I recommend that too.
I'm currently running a 3rd edition adaptation of The whole Queen of Spiders campaign that incorporates the giant modules.
If you have a group that likes politics and actual roleplaying then I would stick with the Liberation of Geoff maybe...The giant modules themselves are quite linear and it's a chore with my players to get them to want to pursue a long chain of giants getting subsequently tougher much like a computer game.
By keeping a focus on Geoff you can give your party a constant reason for being in the quest.
My players are now in the Fire Giant Halls a long way with home dealing with a problem centred in Istivin. Two are from Geoff and are finding it more and more tempting to just go back and deal with more local problems.
The Queen of SPiders campaign is pretty epic though...but for the players to gel they either need to have a love of loot and hacking or need to have some driving goal to push all the way through a sequential campaign.
Also if you want to develop in great detail a particular area then stick with Geoff as the players will spend much time liberating the towns and areas of the Grand Duchy.
Queen of SPiders only really starts in Sterich - the party is led on a long journey from home. ALternatively the information in the Liberation of Geoff can easilly be adapted to Sterich - allowing the PCs to build up a rapport with STerich before going on a long quest to save their beloved capital city of Istivin. In hindsight I wish I had taken this approach with my game.
One other note is that if you are using 3rd edition rules giants are much tougher and so the game becomes a lot harder!
Wolfling -
with the 3rd edition CR system, it seems almost impossible to do a straight conversion (mountain giants alone are a CR 26, iirc!) Not to derail the topic, but how are you managing some of those encounters? Nosnra's Hall alone is well beyond - say a 9th level party. _________________ Michael Erin Sandar Bard of Midwood
There has been a discussion of this on the WotC boards.
Basically, the way a 9th level party takes out the feast hall in the Steading is not to. A frontal assault is guaranteed suicide, so what you do is clear as much of everything else out, then wait for the giants to go to sleep, or otherwise break up, then take them on. Perhaps not the most glorious way to do things, but it works.
I am currently running my players in the Glacial Rift. i have upgraded the frost giants to elite array stats and specialized feats, and added frostspeakers from Frostburn to the mix. So far, it is working well. The players are using limited incursions, and seeing just how lethal the giants can be each time. They are on their second full assault (their first incursion was just to look around and get an idea of where various landings were since we were missing the player of the dwarf tank), and seem to have hit a decent stride in dealing with a room full of frost giants. (7 or 8 for an EL of 15 or 16.)
It takes some effort, but those adventures can still be fun for some nice hardcore hacking.
Basically, the way a 9th level party takes out the feast hall in the Steading is not to
ach... once again illustrating the edition differences. I DM'ed a party of 4 eighth-ninth level second edition pcs through that and they slaughtered everything. And believe me - I've not been DMing for as long as some, but I do have about 15 years xp, so it's not like I didn't try my damned-est to take the pcs down a peg or twelve.
Sam: Let me ask you this: Did you give some of the giants class levels? Or just beef hit points, etc? I find it hard to belive that Nosnra would be just a 'regular'. I only ask because I'm considering translating this for 3.5 and want to get a grasp of what others have seen.
All - what levels do you recommend (beyond the 9 pcs at 9th level stated in the mod?) _________________ Michael Erin Sandar Bard of Midwood
Well there is no question the power level of giants is way higher in 3.5 than it was in 2nd.
As for levels, I wrote a bunch of hill giants with levels, and the PCs either brutally slaughtered them anyway, or avoided fighting them. That is why I am concentrating on just using the elite array and special feat stacks in the Glacial Rift. (It takes 15 minutes to an hour to properly do a giant with a class level or two. It takes 5-10 minutes to tag on the elite array and pick some different feats.) I will still add levels to the Jarl, and, depending on how the clearing of the upper level goes, possibly to some other giants. (Notes to self: redo the cloud giant, and do those white dragons.) I will likely do the same in the Hall.
There are a few particularly vicious levels that can be added if you use some of the more obscure prestige classes and the like, but right now I'm sticking with more mundane upgrades.
Yes it is a much tougher campaign if you directly convert the campaign from 2nd ed to 3.5ed but as Samwaise said it just means that players have to use different tactics. My party is comprised mainly of spellcasters...wizard, witch, druid, bard and a mystic theurge of Bleredd...so fighting isn't much of an option...they've had to use sneaking, spells and coup de graces primarilly...plus the witch is focused on summoning and a liberal summoning of magmins in the hill giant STeading provided a good distraction. The players have resorted to using spells like grease and mind control spells like suggestion also to great effect.
as for adding class levels to giants i have been quite sparing as the game is already tough for my players. What I did is simply look at the descriptions of Nosnra for example where he is described as fighting as a tougher giant...so the fact he has a greater strength already makes him a tougher opponent.
Jarl Grugnir again fough like a fire giant but Lady Amgroth was given a few levels in sorceress.
I've ignored mountain giants and swapped them for other things...basically you just need to tweak the adventure to make it challenging in a more manageable way.
Mountain Giants were/are very nasty. The 3.5 version of Mountain Giansts illustrates how nasty they are in comparison to the other giants, and this is a feature of the stats for them in all editions. They are really big and mean basically. I think the first one showed up in the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun adventure. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I think the first one showed up in the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun adventure.
Actually, the mountain giant was first published in Fiend Folio. Wanting to showcase some of the new monsters, Gary included a number of them (the mountain giant and the norker, to name a couple) when writing WG4.
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