Another nice piece of history - though I have a few nits to pick with your rough treatment of the Oerids. :)
While I'm certain I won't be able to shift you from what is likely to be an entrenched position ( ), might I suggest what I might have done?
OK - so I assume, given the fact we have an orcish/goblinkin realm (Orcreich in DA1, though that's obviously not its real name) to the west of the Bakoury lands (the site of the original Oeridian homeland - which the orcs - perhaps after being driven out of the Seven Kingdoms of Suhfang - overran) that the orcs and goblin kin came from there or thereabouts and moved east?
Presumably, the Empires of the Bakluni and the Suel would have resisted this, but would have had to defend their western ranges from raids and attempted invasions. The Sulhauts might have provided a route for the orcs however - either over or under. That could have brought them to the Crystalmists and Barrier Peaks and into contact with the Dwur High King on one hand and the Oeridian exiles in Ull on the other.
Now - if you're going to have the Oerids be crushed under orcish dominion at any time, the time to do it is before -644 CY. In my take, this is when Johydee freed the Oerids from the servents of the unnamed dark gods who had dominion over them. These may have been Euroz overlords or they may have been others - perhaps evil Bakluni, perhaps some other people, now vanished.
The Oerids are free and thrive for a time. Meanwhile in the mountains of the south, the generational Euroz-Dwur Wars rumble on. Though countless thousands of Euroz are slain, Dwur are steadily losing ground as orc fecundity begins to tell over the slow replacement rate of the Dwur.
Then to the west, the Suel and the Baklun begin their final deadly conflict at Padyr in -485 CY. Both sides recruit orc bands from the Northern Crystalmists in return for gold and magic, which the orcs then in turn use against the Dwur. The two conflicts - one above ground, the other below- become entwined. War and chaos spreads north to Ull, where raiders - both Baklun and Orc raid the horseherds of the Oerids and lay siege to their citadel at Kester.
As their tribulations mount, in –465 CY, Johydee appears to the Hetmen of the Oerids and speaks the Prophecy of the Hidden Empress - promising greatness to those who seek the land of the sun's birth far to the east.
Here's were you can introduce the first Mak to be Hextor's stick to Johydee's carrot - effectively chasing the Oerids out of Ull (some might have been enslaved here too - I'll grant you). Alternatively, the Oerids departed (except for the ancestors of the Yorodhi of course) and the orcs in the Barriers merely filled the vacuum.
Meanwhile, below ground, the war against the Dwur enters its final decisive phase, preventing the Mak from pursuing the Oerids completely (no doubt as Hextor intended). In -422 CY, as the Baklun and the Suel destroy each other above ground, the halls of the High King of the Dwur fall below ground, freeing the Mak to unleash his forces into the Flanaess (the only direction of choice, given the devestation of the lands to his west).
So at the same time as you have the Oerids and the Suel pouring east, you have bands of orcs and goblin-kin too, following on their heels and adding to the general free for all that was the Great Migrations.
Tycheron's fall to an orcish horde makes a degree of sense. The main body of Oerids (the Keogh and the Vollar excepted) appear to have passed north across Ferrond and north of Nyr Dyv - staying well away from Tycheron. The Suel pass close, but south. It's possible to speculate that the might (or terror) of Tycheron persuaded both groups to stay well away.
If you stick an orc/goblinkin arrow from the Fals or Lortmils directed at the city, then the apparent mystery of who razed it (assuming it wasn't the Celeni) is solved.
First, what Wolfsire said. I never would have looked here for comments if Mortellan handn't moseyed by and told me about it.
1. Orcreich origin
Not really. I figure they just came from out there somewhere, exactly where I hadn't considered. And of course I'm one of those who think that names on that map are silly.
I do however figure that both the euroz and jebli generally used the Sulhauts as a passage east, raiding to one side or other as paid by the Suel and Baklunish.
2. Johydee
I don't think that background for Johydee's mask is compatible with anything else written for the Oeridians. If Johydee did free the Oeridians from anyone, I expect it must have occurred well before this time, likely at some time before the Oeridians arrived in Ull.
Also, I wanted to use the humanoid domination to show just how harsh Oeridian law from their deities can be. When Zilchus says jump, you jump, or Hextor boots you so high you crack your head on a star before falling back down.
3. The rest
In general, yes. Those were my basic assumptions as I wrote that.
I will also note that I used "Mak" because of you. (Let that be a lesson to you.) People can either take him as a super-ancestor of Turrosh Mak, or assume it is some sort of Orcish title. I intended it to be open ended and useable either way. I wanted to seed a parallel between the Thundering Horde and what GLH refers to as the potential Hateful Wars II coming from the Pomarj. In relation to that, think of the Aerdi conquest of the Velverdyva basin as the Hateful War 0.5, and the Thundering Horde as the Hateful Wars - Prelude. (Hateful War 0 and -I?)
1. Orcreich origin
Not really. I figure they just came from out there somewhere, exactly where I hadn't considered. And of course I'm one of those who think that names on that map are silly.
The names are silly - what the signify might not be though...
Samwise wrote:
2. Johydee
I don't think that background for Johydee's mask is compatible with anything else written for the Oeridians. If Johydee did free the Oeridians from anyone, I expect it must have occurred well before this time, likely at some time before the Oeridians arrived in Ull.
The lack of convenient evil gods around Ull does make that a problem alright. It's possible that the Mask legend is from the original Oerid homeland farther west.
Samwise wrote:
I will also note that I used "Mak" because of you. (Let that be a lesson to you.)
A lesson I've certainly learned. :)
Samwise wrote:
In relation to that, think of the Aerdi conquest of the Velverdyva basin as the Hateful War 0.5, and the Thundering Horde as the Hateful Wars - Prelude. (Hateful War 0 and -I?)
Would the Aerdi have conquered in the Velverdyva area or just blazed on through? Or are you talking about the Aerdi conquering Ferrond and Voll in the first century CY?
I saw the Vollar carving out their domain in the Upper Fals area, with other Oerid groups (and perhaps orcs) in the vale of the Velverdyva and Crystal Rivers); Olve in Highfolk and Celene. Then, between 1 CY and 100 CY the Aerdi arrive and civilise Ferrond (kill the orcs and gob-kin) and incorporate the Vollar into the Great Kingdom.
The names are silly - what the signify might not be though...
When suitable names are available, I will contemplate incorporating what they signify.
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A lesson I've certainly learned. :)
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Would the Aerdi have conquered in the Velverdyva area or just blazed on through? Or are you talking about the Aerdi conquering Ferrond and Voll in the first century CY?
In the first century CY.
I figure they blazed on through the first time around, likely because they knew the Thundering Horde was right behind them. Otherwise it would be nearly absurd, prophecy or not, for them not to have settled the obviously fertile Velverdyva valley.
As a note, that was a key element in my background considerations. Real migrations tend to occur because someone stronger has come along and kicked your tribes butt. They stop because you have found someone weaker on good land and kicked their butt. Otherwise, you don't just keep going. Something had to "encourage" the Aerdi and Nehri (and others) to keep moving.
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I saw the Vollar carving out their domain in the Upper Fals area, with other Oerid groups (and perhaps orcs) in the vale of the Velverdyva and Crystal Rivers); Olve in Highfolk and Celene. Then, between 1 CY and 100 CY the Aerdi arrive and civilise Ferrond (kill the orcs and gob-kin) and incorporate the Vollar into the Great Kingdom.
I deliberately stopped short of fully exploring that, mostly because I'm not ready to full define it. At this time, my general concepts include:
The Velverdyva valley (as far as the Veng River) was divided between small humanoid and human states, each claiming 1-3,000 square miles or so. (ie A barony of small county.)
A strong Cuthberran tradition had established itself in Voll, and was likely twice as large as noted above.
Velondi is a Southern Oeridian language, as the Voll are a Southern Oeridian group, like the Keogh. This culture was strongly subsumed by the Aerdy.
The Cuthberran tradition became a focal point of the independence movement, rallying the support of the commoners to the Heironean separatist nobles.
This Cuthberran resistance is the source of the rivalry with the Pholtans, as they supported Aerdy rule.
Since I am currently distracted by my Aboleth and non-mammalian race development, those concepts are likely to remain undeveloped for some time. If I do get some inspiration, I will likely try and explore the development of Cuthberism in the Velverdyva valley from the migration, the Aerdy conquest, and to the revolution.
I like this idea of the development of Voll/Ferrond.
The Vollar would likely have tried to hold the ferlile lands between the Fals and the Velverdyva, down towards Verbobonc (basically most of northern Veluna). If the Aerdi are any sort of model of Oerid organisation, the Vollar were probably split along clan lines into petty principalities - perhaps united under a primes inter pares type hetman or holy man.
To the south of them you'd have orcs/goblin/giant-kin in the Lortmils and foothills. To the north, along the Velverdyva you hit the fringes of the Highfolk's sphere of influence. Then across the Velverdyva, on the plains of Ferrond, you get your balkanised petty kingdoms - starting off with small tribal territories and then towards the eve of the Aerdi conquest coalescing into perhaps a dozen and a half dozen larger petty realms (probably anchored around resources like rivers/river valleys - Att, Crystal and Veng; the shores of the Nyr Dyv, Lake Wyestil etc).
I also like the split you suggest between southern (or even western) Oerids (Keogh, Vollar etc) and eastern Oerids (Nehron, Ferron, Aerdi etc).
And yes - it makes sense for there being something pushing the Aerdi along aside from manifest destiny and prophecies. If you look at the Magyars, it was war with the Pechenegs and Bulgars that encouraged them to move from the Etelköz of the Ukraine to the plains of Hungary.
““Then there is the Plar of Veluna. The title was acquired early in the migrations when the Vollar, an Oeridian tribe, peacefully absorbed a large congregation of primitive Flan. Given the nature of its people, it would seem reasonable to conclude that the title, held by the foremost of the seven noble houses, was not discarded in favor of one of the titles more common in Furyondy, such as Baron or Count, because it made a statement of pride about their Oeridian-Flan cultural unity, embodied in the worship of Rao, that is seen in the largely Oeridian Archclericy. FN10. …FN10: LGG, p.129; Guide, p.41.
I like this idea of the development of Voll/Ferrond.
HAH!
Told you so evil netbot!
(He didn't think anyone would really get into it.
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The Vollar would likely have tried to hold the ferlile lands between the Fals and the Velverdyva, down towards Verbobonc (basically most of northern Veluna). If the Aerdi are any sort of model of Oerid organisation, the Vollar were probably split along clan lines into petty principalities - perhaps united under a primes inter pares type hetman or holy man.
Quite likely. There is a reference to a religious state based in Mitrik, so that must be considered, but this would be my starting point.
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To the south of them you'd have orcs/goblin/giant-kin in the Lortmils and foothills. To the north, along the Velverdyva you hit the fringes of the Highfolk's sphere of influence. Then across the Velverdyva, on the plains of Ferrond, you get your balkanised petty kingdoms - starting off with small tribal territories and then towards the eve of the Aerdi conquest coalescing into perhaps a dozen and a half dozen larger petty realms (probably anchored around resources like rivers/river valleys - Att, Crystal and Veng; the shores of the Nyr Dyv, Lake Wyestil etc).
Actually, I have the humanoids both north and south. That way most can get driven north, orcs to the modern Iuz region, goblinoids to the modern Horned Society region, both into the Lortmils. That of course sets up the conflicts with the Lortmils demihumans, as they suddenly have tons of humanoids swarming the depths.
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I also like the split you suggest between southern (or even western) Oerids (Keogh, Vollar etc) and eastern Oerids (Nehron, Ferron, Aerdi etc).
That isn't mine. It is from the description of Oeridian clothing patterns. The Oeridians of the Velverdyva and Sheldomar wear diamonds and ovals, the Oeridians of the Flanmi and Duntide wear checks and plaids. I find it unlikely this doesn't extend to other aspects of their culture. And doing so sets the groundwork for many other things. (Tavish II calling for the "liberation" of southern Oeridians from Eastern Oeridian oppression, more fuel for the Cuthbert-Pholtus rivalry, divergence in the worship of Heironeous within Ferrond and between Furyondy and the Shield Lands, linguistic variations, and more.) It is really a "DUH! It is sitting there to be used, use it!" situation.
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And yes - it makes sense for there being something pushing the Aerdi along aside from manifest destiny and prophecies. If you look at the Magyars, it was war with the Pechenegs and Bulgars that encouraged them to move from the Etelköz of the Ukraine to the plains of Hungary.
Heh. One of the first amateur things I did in gaming was playtesting Imperium Romanum II. I know all about the Gothic, Germanic, Slavic, Magyar, and Turkic migrations. except for the Horseclans (go fiction!) and prehistoric tribes, nobody moves like that unless somebody forces them to.
Just to throw in my two bits for when it comes to development of the Voll
Indeed. That very neatly fits into the general concept. Another fun instance of the synchronicity that pops up in GH when you consider things from a weird enough angle.
Chaos Theory game development baby!
A general theory at this time is that the non-mammalian, and non-humanoid (giants and various monstrous humanoids) were present in the Flanaess before the migrations. Specifics are not given, mostly because the list is too long and keeps expanding.
Xvarts and gnolls are currently on the "maybe" list.
Yes, there were "native" humanoids present but the migrations brought a large influx and since they were mercenaries these "mercenary humanoids" generally had better weapons due to their patrons be it Baklunish or Suel.
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), might I suggest what I might have done?
