Hi,
I am siting my campaign in CY 596 in the southern Hold of the Sea Princes. I am trying to figure what Hokar is like and its relation with the rest of the non-SB Hold. I get the impression that after the SB schism in 589 that Hokar became the center of the old Hold. Its population certainly swelled
Quote:
Scarlet Brotherhood loses control of parts of the Hold of Sea Princes. They keep the Flotsam, Jetsom, Fairwind, Port Toli and Monmurg, but lose the rest of the territory to rebellious slaves, free Holders and humanoid mercenaries
from the GREYchrondex
I am thinking of making Hokar a refugee city, unbalanced with all the remaining nobility of the Hold and their households as well slaves. Most of the merchant and guild classes would have stayed where they were (though perhaps this is a mistake). Hokar will be controlled by a governing council of nobles (this is necessary for my campaign).
I was wondering about the relationship of Hokar to the rest of the "free" Hold in the Inland. There are also some towns in the former Hold on the coast SE of the Mourning Cliffs. Are these controlled by the Hold or by the SB?
thanks I am new to DMing but love having a setting in which to place and constrain my campaign
Well - remember that your ruling council will likely be made of a mix of once -minor lords and the surviving heirs of the pre-war Sea Princes (not to mention at least one pretender - just for luck ). As of 591 CY they seem to have been happy to intrigue as much against each other, as against the SB.
The LGJ dispatches from the Hold mentioned in passing that the Brotherhood had Hokar besieged in spring 591 CY:
LGJ 2: "[Scarlet Brotherhood Herdsman] Krevaradan quelled a massive uprising in Port Toli in 590 CY, and has made several devastating thrusts into the territotry by the Sea Princes near Hokar."
The same issue mentions that Krevadaran is marching on the Olman and Touv slaves under Utavo the Wise that have taken control of the Duchy of Berghof from the SB. Persumably, since Berghof is west of Hokar, this army is seconded from a larger force investing Hokar, as described in LGJ 3:
"Plagued with defections from his own slave army, Krevaradan send for the aid of the largley Suel army of Herdmistress Maleshev, currently in siege against Hokar. The request for succor was ignored..."
Nothing more is said about the fate of Hokar in the LGJ - though I cited the fact that the SB survivors of the subsequent massacre in Kusnir staggled back to the forces around Hokar in one of the Wizards Mysterious Places articles. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lgmp/20051213a)
A siege in 591 CY is not to say the city fell. The SB may have been forced to lift the siege for any number of reasons (pestilence being a favourite in the sweltering Hold). It's possible that the nobles got it together enough to at least temporarily mount an effective defence. Its possible that a leader emerged to unite them or that a captain from the ranks of the merchants of commonfolk emerged to lead the defenders. Of course, he'd now be a prime playing piece in the machinations of the nobles, that's if he's not clever or ambitious enough to turn the game on them and use them as his pawns to sieze power (I'm remembering how the Sforzas started off as mercenaries and ended up as Dukes of Milan).
Alternatively, the nobles have divided the city and lands up between them (not unlike the way Somali warlords divided Mogadishu) and feud among themselves, uniting only to fight the SB or freed slave factions.
All in all, Hokar sounds delightfully squalid and riven with feuds, rivalries, vendettas, intrigue and infighting - a microcosm of the chaos that is the Hold in general.
...are also some towns in the former Hold on the coast SE of the Mourning Cliffs. Are these controlled by the Hold or by the SB?
Just out of curiosity, where did you get a reference to the Mourning Cliffs?
If you want to follow this forum and the link cited therein discussing Port Toli, etc., http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1575&highlight=berghof+grand+duke, you can try to extact something from the incongruities in the modules UK2-3. If the inhabitants of the north coast of the Jeklea bay wanted to get into Berghof, why did they not go around the mountain instead of being held back by Adleweg keep. IMO, the answer is that they were probably held in check by Hokar. That indicates that it was a power to be reconded with back in the day.
I have an article in the line for posting that says just a tiny bit on the town: “John Vale’s mother was purely Suloise, from an old if poor Hokari family of which there is little to be said. His father was of mixed Flan and Oeridian blood, hailing from the Vale of Berghof. Taking up the name Vale to hide his Flannea heritage, he established for himself a position of respectability in Hokar as a wealthy adventurer semi-retired into planting.”- The article is pre-Wars.
“Unlike in other areas of the Sheldomar, the Suel and Oeridian tribes who inhabit the Hold of the Sea Princes have not intermixed. FN11. … FN11: Guide [’83 boxed set], p.8. Such lack of intermixing is made all the more interesting in light of a canon conflict diminishing Oeridian influence in the Hold. The Guide, p.14, provides that the Hold is SOf, racially. The LGG, p.100, provides it is Sofz. ...”
Regarding slave, there, I would think given the opportunities to escape, those that remain would be only those that think they are better off as slaves, or those that are always kept in chains, something that is probably not that easy to do. As to the former, they would be those that are treated well-ish and those that would be different enough from the freed slaves that they would be endangered by them.
If you don’t mind, share anything have or develop on Hokar.
I've in mind that the early Hold might be broken up as follows -
1) Flotsam & Jetsom Islands - Mixed human pirates
2) Fairwind Island - Elves (perhaps sea elves)
3) Sybarite Island - Human druidic culture
4) Southern Coast (Port Toli to Monmurg to Port Torvin) - Renegade Suel Houses
5) Kamph Mountains - Duergar
6) Hokar - Duergar overlords of mixed human population (Hokar is heavily fortified)
7) Central lands - Mixed Suel and Oeridian populations
8) Duchy of Berghof - Oeridian mini-kingdom
By the time of the Hold proper, a mixed population predominates under the rulership of the Sea Princes, with the exception being Hokar, which remains a Duergar stronghold and the premier slave market of the Hold and its arsenal, producing the vast majority of its arms and armor. And the Duchy of Berghof.
The Brotherhood only manages to truly take the sea islands and southern coast. The Central Lands and the Duchy of Berghof are no more "taken" than they are in a state of near constant rebellion. Hokar is never taken and the Duergar become the Brotherhood's most persistent nemisis, continuing to supply arms and armor to the rebels with Hokar becoming the rock up on which the tide of Brotherhood conquest breaks.
The Duergar of the Kamph Mountains and Hokar become architects of the the Brotherhood's defeat, the foundation upon which a new Hold will assert its independence and the most unlikely and unloveable of "heroes." Of course, the Hold is no more independent than it falls to squabbling again, with a new crop of Sea Princes rising to power.
Those Sea Princes would fall into three categories -
1) Those seeking to return to the freebooting days of yore;
2) Those seeking to establish the Hold as a loose confederation but actual nation; and
3) Those collaborating with Keoland's attempts to influence or annex the Hold.
Alongside these three Sea Prince factions would be -
4) The Duergar; and
5) The restored Duchy of Berghof, which looks for an alliance with Melkot and the Yeomanry.
Anyway, that's my initial thought. Others conceptions of the area?
Note - The Sasserine background coming in Dungeon might add more factors to the mix. _________________ GVD
I see Braggi’s map over at Harvester’s Heroes have the Mourning Cliffs, as well as a lot of other details.
As for filling in the Hold, which affects Hokar, not to drift too much, the City of Industrious is an odd bird, or should I say creepy bug. I think it was O-D’s creation. UK2 references the monk order of the Grey Cowl, or some such. I favor plugging in When a Star Falls, UK4, into the area, which introduces another order of monks and seers. Those together give me the notion that the far western Hold, which itself is in the far southwestern corner of the Flanaess and I think one of the least settled areas, is not so much populated with peasants, but with extremist and strange Suel orders that found refuge there. Rockburg is closer to Melkot and would fall within its orbit. I was thinking the gnome soldiers from UK4 are from the Little or Good Hills whose service is repayment for a prophesy, but the dwarves were local.
Just out of curiosity, where did you get a reference to the Mourning Cliffs?
The cliffs, along with a whole load of other settlements Ceibatl, Pecwa, Windsong etc were shown on an old map of the Sheldomar, which also illustrated LG towns for the Yeomanry and Keoland so I think Braggi too his inspiration from there.
I just assumed that the Mourning Cliffs looked out over the bay where a great naval battle was fought (are they on Jeklea Bay? I don't have the map on my work pc), or perhaps the rocks are particularly treacherous at that point. Add some Drowned Ones in the sea caves and it's a reasonable (if unimaginative) geographical marker.
I'm not sure if any of the locations were from LG mods or the original artist's home campaign though, as I've see no official information on any of them. Even Ceibatl, which was shown in the Duchy of Berghof is a mystery so I assumed it was a named recent Olman settlement.
If anybody has played any of the LG mods and can confirm whether these settlements have appeared in any, the might be handy to know.
I've included everything I could find on my home-made gazeteer (including Industrious although I vaguely recall that the settlement of Pecwa is also shown in the mountains and I debated whether Pecwa WAS Industrious). It is tricky to determine who should be in charge of the western coastal settlements. I'd guess the Brotherhood with its naval superiority would maintain control of those villages.
UK2 references the monk order of the Grey Cowl, or some such.
The mod says the monks were from Keoland so I plumbed for the Monastery of Artan (aka the Halls of Inner Perfection) in the Good Hills where the monks remain cowled at all times, identifiable by the rings they wear.
Despite Sam's objections that Adlerweg and Berghof are too German to be Suel (::cough::Karll of Urnst::cough-cough:: ) - I saw Berghof as being an ancient Suel realm, settled by a mix of Firstcomers and refugees in the years after the RoCF.
Never really saw Hokar as being Duergar though...the LGG seems to suggest it being wholly hu-man. That's not to say that there isn't a duergar population there to add spice, of course.
Walls and such - fortifications would almost certainly have been a priority for construction if such walls didn't exist before the Wars - ditch and palisade more than likely, as propert curtain walls would take time and cash (though the input of walls of stone and such spells should not be ignored).
I check the Darlene Map and its key in the Guide or Gloss. It was an unwalled town. As Woesinger points out, it could have been walled subsequently. As he also implies, fortifications need not include walls. Arguably only curtains, and not palisades, are included within the meaning of “walled.” Perhaps the best read of this is that at least until the Wars, Hokar did not need to have walls. But why, especially if it was a bulwark preventing, say, the Toli or other tribe from invading Berghof? Big Mojo? Powerful friends in the mountains (Duergar?). Nothing important in the town with the local lords and merchants living in their nearby castles?
I scanned Duergar in the 1e MMII and it said that they dwell underground and avoid light. IMO, they would not at all like ruling a human city. But they could be part of the mix. The Underlords?
LLG says dwarves are only 4%. Any dwarves, with such a small %, raises the issue of what is the geography of Hokar? On the map it is clearly on a plain hex. However, it is my understanding that the Darlene Map is to be read, at least with respect to towns and water, with some latitude. Hokar could be in the hills or mountains near the plains, drawn only on the plains for convenience. It could be like Denver or Golden, geographically. It could have one or may forts, even ones like Helms Deep, nearby.
I am thinking it might be the center of a separately cultivated Suel region. Separate from the Toli, Keoish/Monmurg and Oeridians along the Hool by actual empty, or rather wild, space. There would probably be some Flan from those that had been driven into the hills. Probably many small streams that never gather as a notable river, but flow into the Hool or Toli Bay. The Hokari would probably be culturally distinct from the Toli or Rhola, but how I do not know. Maybe they have a thing for dwarves. I know there is a Suel connection with the Darro, but I do not know about the Duegar. Maybe they have a connection to the imperial mining before the Twins. Maybe they were not an original tribe, but a gathering of several.
Despite Sam's objections that Adlerweg and Berghof are too German to be Suel (::cough::Karll of Urnst::cough-cough:: )
One Karll does not the full blown German of The Sentinel and the Gauntlet make. Particularly with all the other titles used for people.
No, Berghof should not be Suel, and the whole concept of it being a Grand Duchy is also rather silly.
Phooey!
Rurik the Living Greyhawk Gazatteer provides for much of what you have said for Hokar. It add a little more too. Hokar would probably be the center of the Kelanen cult/noble’s revenge society referenced therein.
Here is something that would support and early Oeridian settlement of Berghof: “These Suel fled en masse down the coastline of Jeklea Bay, then entered the Amedio Jungle, probably pursued by Oeridian Armies.” See OJ4, Green Nightmare. Don’t recall off the top of my head if tSB said anything about this.
Such a conflict could be woven into the UK2-3 Berghof v. coastal people conflict, such that the coastal people could be either Toli, Amedi or something in between, perhaps even with an Jerlea Olman (differentiated C1 the North American Indian elements ex coyote that I have attributed to ancient Berghof.)
Well, that brings up the climate and geography of the Jerlea coast. IIRC, UK2-3 says dusty and dry, those that lived there envied Berghoff, and mountains are shown without trees. Such seems in stark contrast to the nearby Amedio, but it is not necessarily so. Here is what I have in mind:
No rivers are shown to run through the Hook of the Amedio. That provides a fairly sound basis to say the area is littered with cenotes, interconnected water filled limestone caverns, as the rains that fall just sink into the ground rather than flow over it. That is the way it is in the Yucatan which can be used for comparison to the Hook. Well, the other sides of the Jerlea coast could be more or less like it up to the mountains, perhaps differentiated in the northwest Toli/Monmurge/Islea area. The Hook and the western and southern costs of the Jerlea would be dry dusty jungles, dryer, dustier and less forested the farther west you go, reaching almost desert like conditions nearest Berghoff. For the Amedio, a dryish Hook is a fudge from canon, but not IMO a serious one as the difference between a dry tropical forest and a tropical rain forest is a matter of degree. It would not have to affect the southeast asian jungle model for the Amedio as a whole. That does not work for Xamaclan. The intent of tSB was not that every area of the Amedio be the same, if for no other reason it references marshes too.
The article The Storm Lords, http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=507 indicates that storms move away from the Hook starting near the Olman isles. Weather could cycle around dumping into the Hold, but not the Jerlea. The Jerlea would be shielded from storms that form farther south, if they move north, by the rest of the Amedio, particularly the Hook. It would be shield from Azure weather by the Hook, the isles and the rest of the Hold.
Well to bring that back around to Hokar, this informs upon its neighbors, which informs Hokar’s policies and history. What are the Hokari doing while the Toli battle the Rhola and the Toli and/or Amedi Suel deal with the Berghofian Oeridians and Jerlea Olman? They might be happy to be mostly left alone, which could explain by the town did not have any walls.
Again, Sassarine. How many days left?
I scanned Duergar in the 1e MMII and it said that they dwell underground and avoid light. IMO, they would not at all like ruling a human city. But they could be part of the mix. The Underlords?
Substitute dwarves who revere Abbathor. Relgate the Duergar to the Kamph Mountains. Ally the two.
Samwise wrote:
No, Berghof should not be Suel, and the whole concept of it being a Grand Duchy is also rather silly.
Agreed.
I'd have it an Oeridian mini-kingdom. The name is just something they plucked out of the air, I guess. _________________ GVD
I'm not going to say that canon is not canon, but canon is often pea-brained, IMO, especially in out of the way areas like the Hold. The UK modules were clearly just dropped into canon and thus we have a "Duchy" named "Berghof" with which to contend.
The same with many of the details of the Hold in canon. The authors just added some stuff without much consideration for how the area should or could best work. So another band of rag tag humans erects a collection of huts and squats there in "Hokar" etc. Can't you just feel the adventure?
IMO, such "canon" needs to be respected but then liberally reinterpreted. IMO, is does not deserve to be adhered to. I see such canon as where we begin, not where we end.
I could go on - Carl Sargent's wanton violation of the Wild Coast to no true good end, jumping immediately to mind, can we really say we gained much with Turrosh Mak and his "Empire" more than we lost with the prior incarnation of the Wild Coast - but I will forebear. _________________ GVD
sadly GVD, this happens every time there is change, someone's pet location is altered and with such a wide spread dislocation like the Greyhawk Wars practically everyones "ox got gored".
However if the setting is to have any "life" it can't be completely static and to be playable for a mass market their has to be an accepted canon baseline whether everyone likes it or not.
Otherwise GH shatters into unrecognizable alternate shards; every land has GH fans, do we "reinterprete" these areas as well if x number objects?
The GH community has weathered harsher changes then the loss of the wild coast, actually I thought that was one of the more logical GW developments, given Turrosh Mak's orcish need for conquest, stymied in the mountains, why not turn the relatively easy conquest of the isolated cities of the wild coast and subsequent Greyhawk's occupation of the northern cities in response.
I actually don't see it as being that implausible that Berghof was Suel.
1: The names may have been Commonised:
For example, Berghof may have come from Bergov (at a stroke far more Suel: something-smoke, if you take tSB as your guide).
Moreover - aside from Adlerweg and Berghof, the other placenames in the Vale aren't particularly German - Kusnir, Gannaway, Chiswell, Spendlowe.
I don't think this is a huge conceptual barrier. If you can have a Suel Karll and a Suel Urnst, you can have a Suel Adlerweg.
2: Titles - duke is a title that's found in other Suel states - notably Keoland and the Urnsts. And unless the Neheli, Rhola and the Maure fancied taking up barbarian Oerid titles, it's likely that duke is a title of Suel origin.
3: It's beyond the realm of possibility that a Suel noble (perhaps a member of the Imperial Senate) wouldn't grandiosely proclaim himself a Grand Duke? Since when are the Suel noted for their modesty?
4: It's closer to major Suel migration routes (and the Suel homeland) than it is to the Oerid migrations. And in fact, Oerid Plars stoping around the lowlands of the Hold is just the thing to send fearful Suel scurrying up to a defensible mountain vale.
This is not to say that there were never, ever any Oerids in Berghof and that they didn't influence the language or culture, of course. Just that, in my view, a Suel petty state there is not so wildly implausible as you might think.
GVD, re-reading through Sam’s articles “another band of rag tag humans erects a collection of huts and squats there in "Hokar" etc.” is not a bad summary, but a lot more color could be added to it for adventure.
Here is just a start upon expanding on it based upon Sam’s articles. Well before Twin Cataclysms, a village of a semi-nomadic flan tribe that had relations with the local dwur was taken over as an Imperium mining and rare wood logging colony worked by ex convicts. Shortly before the Twins, it is overrun by Suel refugees that settle there. The Hokari are the leading tribe, and the name sticks, but the tribe never organizes into much of a political power. All become Hokari. Hokar is never really much organized but they hold their own until the Toli bring them into their sway. That takes a while. At first, they hold the Toli in check just because there were more of them. But to the Toli they were “even more disorganized than [the Firstcomers] back [in Keoland], content to let their slaves run their plantations while they sat indoors, avoiding the blistering sun.” Hokar would have not been much more than a market town surrounded by plantations to the north and mines and logging camps to the south. Local nobles would go there for diversions. After a while Toli sea and slave trade power would have done them in without need for a fight. After the Toli fall, they are brought into the Hold, but still fragmented. Every local merchant and plantation holder would be, back then and to this day, a prima donna.
For Hokar to be a place of adventure, it need not be a citadel of the mighty. It is stable in its disorganization and lack of real importance. I do not know how it is holding out against a siege, (swelling pop and new walls) but I clearly see this a place, at least before the wars, where drunken rakes wander from bar to brothel, and there scores of factions are mixing about to keep things balanced and constantly being distracted by the whims of the day.
Woesinger, a Suel Berghof is not, IMO, implausible at all, but I think a choice had to be made and I think Oeridian-Flan is the better.
The non-mixing of S and O can only be done by separation. Even with the SOf to Sofz inconsistency, there are enough Suel in the Hold. I appreciate the Plar Oerid plug, but that is not going to account for many Oerids. I had Plar as Oerids ruling over Flan, and the Hool Marshes are just not going to be that densely populated. If they are not mixing, the Oerids are not going to be in Hokar, Westkeep, Monmurg, Port Toli, or Industius. (If you don’t read the migration paths with a little leeway, and you have to comply with other known facts, Hokar would be an Oerid home). SOf or Sofz, S dominates and they are not mixing with O. That means the margins, such as Berghof (marginal as perceived until settled) and Hool should go to non slave F and O. All those Suel running around the lowlands would have run the native Flan up into the highlands or marshes.
I’d have some good Oerids chasing some Suel out of Keoland right over the Way of the Eagle and finding some peace there with the Flan, but they would need help later. That would be a crazy epic chase that could have only been done by a serious personality and of a tribe that was different than most O, in so far as they did not mind not stick close to the Keog, et al. More Oerids would have had to have been sent later, IMO, as Sam indicated at another time, as a bulwark against the Toli.
Berghof is good. Within the Suel you already have the Rhola-Monmurg/Westkeep v. Toli fight in an otherwise evilish country. More good Suel is going to be out of character. The Rhola are enough. Good Oerid/Flan in Berghof and not quite as evil Suel in Hokar seems, IMO, to balance. Good Berghof Oerid with free Flan compared with Bad Hool Oerid with slave and evil Flan balances well too.
Well, that is just my opinion, and only for now. Next months Dungeon will probably mess it all up.
I don't see "the SOf to Sofz inconsistency," but instead interpret it as a considered (and justified) change / evolution due to the murder of Seolder nobles, the subjugation of native Seolders (to use Jason Farina's old term), and the increased import of Olman slaves.
I like the ideas being suggested about mixed groups who displaced the indigenous Flan / Olman but am unsure about the notion of a separate "Hokari" group of Suel. Sounds a little hokey... ;)
Just kidding, couldn't resist the simplistic word play! But seriously, I have a hard time accepting the notion of pre-Cataclysm Suel colonies. Can someone cite to a good description of such in or out of canon? I know that several longtime fans talk about Suel colonies as if such must have existed, especially due to the ancient Kendeen Pass, but I've never really liked the idea and think I'd benefit from reading an interesting example of such.
Did Kyuss (Chris Jarvis) or Joe Katzman ever post about such?
We know that the Suel founded colonies in the Flanaess before the Rain because Slerotin's tribes only came through the other side after the Rain and they were latecomers. I know you're referring to colonies that were quite a while before the rain - centuries, say - but it seems likely that if a major war was enough to drive hordes of Suel through the Harsh Pass long before anyone predicted anything so devastating as the Colorless Fire, then in the millennia of their people's existance there must have been some similar circumstance. Unless the final Suel-Baklunish war was the single most devastating calamity in Suel history even before the colorless flames rained down, which is possible. And, of course, displaced Suel might have gone back afterwards, after the crisis was over. Every crisis except the last.
Really, the main reason I like the idea of substantial Suloise territories (not mere colonies, but full members of the Empire) beyond the Suel basin is so that they can have a long history of oceanic travel. I suppose it could all have been on the Celestial Sea side, though.
I don't think Chris Jarvis ever discussed pre-Rain colonies; his history begins with the Grand Thaumaturj of the Suel pouring through Slerotin's tunnel all at once with a fully equipped, fully prepared army (the emperor of the Suloise doesn't walk like mere commoners; when it rains, he pours), devastating the Oeridian kingdom that had already been there for over a century. It's really, really different from the Gary Holian version.
Joe Katzman also started with the Oeridians arriving in the Sheldomar first; probably Gary Holian would have too, but Vecna's presence changes things.
I actually don't see it as being that implausible that Berghof was Suel.
1: The names may have been Commonised:
For example, Berghof may have come from Bergov (at a stroke far more Suel: something-smoke, if you take tSB as your guide).
Or "-gh" could be an Oeridian ending for tribal coalitions, so you'd have the Keo-gh, the Ule-gh (Ule-k), the Volle-gh (Vollar in Aerdi), and the Ber-gh.
Such ex post facto naming conventions can work both ways.
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Moreover - aside from Adlerweg and Berghof, the other placenames in the Vale aren't particularly German - Kusnir, Gannaway, Chiswell, Spendlowe.
Lowe is lion in German, and I wonder if the others have similar connections.
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I don't think this is a huge conceptual barrier. If you can have a Suel Karll and a Suel Urnst, you can have a Suel Adlerweg.
This is GH. NOTHING is a huge conceptual barrier. The question is whether you burn that bridge when you come to it or not.
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3: It's beyond the realm of possibility that a Suel noble (perhaps a member of the Imperial Senate) wouldn't grandiosely proclaim himself a Grand Duke? Since when are the Suel noted for their modesty?
Actually, to a certain extent, it is. No other nation is the Flanaess is so excessively endowed with a title like that, so it is rather inconsistent.
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4: It's closer to major Suel migration routes (and the Suel homeland) than it is to the Oerid migrations. And in fact, Oerid Plars stoping around the lowlands of the Hold is just the thing to send fearful Suel scurrying up to a defensible mountain vale.
And yet there are Oeridians there.
And yet the Germanic names are generally more Oeridian.
Now mind you, I am big hater of most of the original racial assignments for the Flanaess, and still feel too many haven't been properly corrected, either from not properly considering other text and maps (no Flan in the Great Kingdom every mixed with the Suel or Oeridians, and instead they all fled to the forests) or considered more general mixing over 1,000 years (with all those Oeridians surrounding the, nobody in the Urnsts married them).
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This is not to say that there were never, ever any Oerids in Berghof and that they didn't influence the language or culture, of course. Just that, in my view, a Suel petty state there is not so wildly implausible as you might think.
It isn't a question of wildly implausible or not.
It is a question of what is more reasonably plausible, and just using that.
again. I touch on the connection between the Velverdyva Oeridians and the Sheldomar Oeridians, and set some framework for intensifying the connection, and suggesting a lingering cultural divide between the local Oeridians and the Aerdi that can be exploited in the future. I've already mentioned some preliminary ideas about how that relates to the conflict between the followers of Cuthbert and Pholtus. That can easily be expanded to some "liberation" scheme being an element of the wars of Tavish II and III in Veluna.
Can someone cite to a good description of such in or out of canon? I know that several longtime fans talk about Suel colonies as if such must have existed, especially due to the ancient Kendeen Pass, but I've never really liked the idea and think I'd benefit from reading an interesting example of such.
I cannot give you any canon citations off the top of my head, but Samwise has several articles referencing the pre-Cataclysm Suel colonies. Perhaps he can provide a link to his page with a complete list. With regard to the Hold, they provide a different vision, to a degree, than the one provided by Gygax, which was thin enough, particularly with respect to early Olman slaving, but I think he has massaged it enough to justify it being apocryphal rather than heretical, particularly with his argument that the numbers were small (which implies Flan slaves).
Very little of these [colonial] Firstcomers is known as most all of their settlements were overrun and absorbed by later refugees. Most of those settlements were in and near the hills and mountains of what is now the Yeomanry, although they had farming settlements across the plains to support them, and some few lumbering camps existed as far east as the Javan River, and south to Jeklea Bay. All of these colonies were established by force, seizing lands and mines from the native Flan, Dwur, and Olve. Oddly, the Imperial overseers preferred to use regular shipments of convicted criminals rather than locally captured slave labor in the deep mines, so aside from the initial violence in establishing the colonies, they managed to exist in relative peace afterwards. In many ways, this ensured their later conquest by the Refugees, as they never had the need to build significant fortifications against outside assault.
Lumbering on Jeklea Bay? Must be for very rare tropical woods, and such a colony would be appropriately supplmented by mining.
Samwise wrote:
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3: It's beyond the realm of possibility that a Suel noble (perhaps a member of the Imperial Senate) wouldn't grandiosely proclaim himself a Grand Duke? Since when are the Suel noted for their modesty?
Actually, to a certain extent, it is. No other nation is the Flanaess is so excessively endowed with a title like that, so it is rather inconsistent.
To be sure, I have not seen Grand Duke anywhere else, but the Hold does have a “different” set of titles: Prince, Plar, Grandee, Commodores, Governor. It is not the usual. As bandits of the sea, it does compare to the outrageously abusive use of titles in the Bandit Kingdoms. I have no problem with Grand Duke in this specific context and a history to justify it as part of the negotiations for incorporation into the Hold, as you have suggested, very much lends itself, particularly if the tribe is largely an outsider as good, non-slaving, and Suel chasing Oeridians. BTW, I envision the northern outlet of the valley as almost as hard to get through, with waterfalls and cliffs, as the southern, so Grand can be justified by the whole valley being almost impenetrable by an army. I do not know much about the recent events, but I got the impression that the Olman formed their army there, rather than brought it in, but either way it does not matter much if there was no Grand Duke with an army to keep them out.
But seriously, I have a hard time accepting the notion of pre-Cataclysm Suel colonies. Can someone cite to a good description of such in or out of canon?
There is no direct citation in canon. It is more inferred from the Slerotin incident Rasgon identifies and other asides that seem to assume that there were Suel in the Flanaess pre-Slerotin.
Call it "Samcanon." I like Sam's idea of interlopers and refugees. But I'll leave the colonists.
I agree with your position on "colonies" of the Suel Imperium, as in part of the Imperium. I don't buy it and I don't see it adds anything to the setting, metagame. I do think it natural that some Suel would have wandered over the mountains and Firstcomer is a name with a nice sound. However, I dislike the idea of substantial Suel settlement in the Flanaess prior to the Twin Cataclysms. _________________ GVD
1. There are numerous casual and not so casual references to Suel in the Flanaess before the Twin Cats. Past a certain point, they make colonies pretty well mandatory.
2. Equally, other things make it mandatory that those colonies be extremely limited. Between Vecna, the migration routes, and comments about the Suel being pushed by the Oeridians, they simply couldn't have been well established in the Flanaess for a thousand years before the Twin Cats.
3. Pseudo-realistically, massive colonies would just be unsupportable. Between lack of population to establish them, to a single, unstable mountain pass for communications, separatist governments would be more reasonable than colonies, but that is even more difficult to reconcile.
All those lead to minor colonies for high value materials. And that pretty much means precious metal mines in the Yeomanry. That requires food for the guards and miners, and timber for the mine supports. (Rare woods mining is exclusively post-Twin Cats to the Flanaess. Shipping tropical hardwood over a mountain pass would never be worthwhile. Maybe shipping preserved tropical plant products, lotus dust or whatever, could be reasonable. Otherwise, it would all be gold and silver.)
Overall population in the Yeomanry and Monrmug was probably under 20,000 until the refugees started showing up. (General estimate.) That sounds like a lot until you consider that it is maybe 1,000 villages of 250 people or so spready over a massive amount of land, with perhaps 200-300 people crossing the pass as "settlers" every year for more than 200 years. California was being "settled" at that rate before the Gold Rush.
So keep that in mind as a perspective when you read about "colonies" in what I wrote about the Firstcomers, and why the Firstcomers won so easily.
Yeah, lumbering on the Jerlea is a problem, but as you put it in there I would go for it within reason. That is why I qualified "tropical woods" with "very rare" and tossed in the mining. Whatever kind of wood it is, it would have to be worth its weight in gold, and as a result, is probably long gone. In fantasy is is easy enough to make up something more rare than ebony. Aside from crossing the mountains, Hokar is not even right on the Jerlea to take advantage of shipping up the Javan. Maybe you only meant lumbering camps to support the mining at Hokar. Either way. The rare woods come to mind with what I had said about dry tropical forests.
1. There are numerous casual and not so casual references to Suel in the Flanaess before the Twin Cats. Past a certain point, they make colonies pretty well mandatory.
Following on MTG's question, can you cite to the "not so casual references?"
If there is a case for Suel colonies in canon, I would like to read those materials.
Following on MTG's question, can you cite to the "not so casual references?"
If there is a case for Suel colonies in canon, I would like to read those materials.
Little help?
The Maure.
The Rhizian "Houses of Pursuit."
Prince Zelrad ad-Zol and the initial settling of the Tilvanot Peninsula.
All suggest a rather more significant Suel presence in the Flanaess before the Twin Cats, depending on how you read the dates associated with them.
Also, references in the article in issue 241 of Dragon, although of questionable status, has Gnomes experimenting on Suel around Jeklea Bay before the Twin Cats, and Flan slaves naming the Derro well before then. Both suggest a Suel presence over the mountains.
In general, I'm pretty half and half on it. I don't think I would have gone with Suel colonies in the Flanaess pre-Twin Cats, but closer examination makes it rather likely, at least west of the Sheldomar. I think kept to that they are reasonable.
Yeah, lumbering on the Jerlea is a problem, but as you put it in there I would go for it within reason. . ..
That's what I forgot . . .
The lumbering on the Javan (not on the Jeklea) is predicated on the Yeomanry being a sweltering, tropical plain.
If it is a nice, decent, moderate altitude, temperate plateau, then any lumbering beyond the Little Hills would be purely for rare sub-tropical and tropical plants, and all lumbering for mining and building supplies would be relegated to strands of upland hardwoods on the plateau. I hadn't considered there would be general acceptance of such a significant revision when I first wrote that, but it would be my strong preference to have the Yeomanry as such, and so people can make the appropriate change for themselves if they also favor such an alteration.
It seems the only reasonable thing to do, IMO, is to take "sweltering" with a grain of salt. The Yeomanry is not the Hool, so it is not that sweltering. But it is not as nice and cool as Berghof either.
Also, references in the article in issue 241 of Dragon, although of questionable status, has Gnomes experimenting on Suel around Jeklea Bay before the Twin Cats, and Flan slaves naming the Derro well before then. Both suggest a Suel presence over the mountains.
Had to pop over to Paizo for that. Questionable status? It is CANON I tell you But seriously, why is questionable? Gnomes and Derro pop up in UK4, so (not have ready 241 yet) that might be another good reason to locate it there.
What a great discussion. Thanks for the general comment Rip, the explication of your term "colony" Sam and those references too.
I'd sort of forgotten about the Houses of Pursuit and REM's article on the origin of the derro and jermalaine. This idea of colonial holdings makes sense, especially if I imagine the Kendeen Pass being harsh but not a tiny winding path. Rather I'm thinking of several almost connected valleys.
For the record, I agree that the Yeomanry should be elevated (as should Celene) relative to their nearest seas. The Yeomanry's latitude still means it should be warmer than my imaginary of England, but there are probably spots in China, Latin America, India, or Africa that have comparable latitude / elevation combinations if one wanted to model it in detail.
Following on MTG's question, can you cite to the "not so casual references?"
If there is a case for Suel colonies in canon, I would like to read those materials.
Little help?
The Maure.
The Rhizian "Houses of Pursuit."
Prince Zelrad ad-Zol and the initial settling of the Tilvanot Peninsula.
All suggest a rather more significant Suel presence in the Flanaess before the Twin Cats, depending on how you read the dates associated with them.
Also, references in the article in issue 241 of Dragon, although of questionable status, has Gnomes experimenting on Suel around Jeklea Bay before the Twin Cats, and Flan slaves naming the Derro well before then. Both suggest a Suel presence over the mountains.
In general, I'm pretty half and half on it. I don't think I would have gone with Suel colonies in the Flanaess pre-Twin Cats, but closer examination makes it rather likely, at least west of the Sheldomar. I think kept to that they are reasonable.
Thank you for the references. Looking at those sources, I stand convinced, although hesitant. Colonies would not have been my choice either but . . . the suggestion, given the materials, is reasonable. I think I would liberally interpret the idea of a "colony." Phoenician and Greek colonies were largely palatinate or independent in that they did not take orders from a "crown," contrasing with British, French, Spanish and Duch colonies in the Caribbean, which did take orders from a "crown." If colonies of Suel pre-TC exist in the Flanaess, I'd like to see them on the Phonecian/Greek model, rather than the later European model. _________________ GVD
As I said, I lean towards none as well, but that's what was in the LGG. In a more heretical version, I'd have written something significantly different.
In fairness, it'd be slightly unrealistic if there were some sort of cordon sanitaire keeping the Suel inside their homeland for 5,000 years without any of them ever thinking of seeing what was over the eastern mountains and a few of them settling there. Again - small numbers here and there - miners, exiles, outcasts and the like, with Vecna keeping the Imperium from taking too much interest in settling the Wild Easterlands in any strength.
oh ya - that sounds about right. I'm not aware of any grey-cowled monks in Yeomanry and the Wolf Nomads have no monaterries that I'm aware of so the Monastery of Artan / Halls of Inner Perfection sounds good to me.
In fairness, it'd be slightly unrealistic if there were some sort of cordon sanitaire keeping the Suel inside their homeland for 5,000 years without any of them ever thinking of seeing what was over the eastern mountains and a few of them settling there. Again - small numbers here and there - miners, exiles, outcasts and the like, with Vecna keeping the Imperium from taking too much interest in settling the Wild Easterlands in any strength.
Yup. I like this, given what we are given. And Vecna is as good a candidate as any to keep the Suel Imperium in check. And were not the Suel xenophobic? At least to the extent of being better than everyone else - in their own opinion? So, perhaps not much impetus to leave the Imperium, the font of all that was good and proper and cool - if you were a Suel that is. Unless as above quoted. _________________ GVD
Lowe is lion in German, and I wonder if the others have similar connections.
Kick me for not thinking about this before. I just did an on-line translation for German to English of "Spend". It means, apparently, "donations." Connotations aside “Spendlowe” means “Donation of the Lion”, which could very easily mean payment or gift from the Kind of Keoland.
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). As of 591 CY they seem to have been happy to intrigue as much against each other, as against the SB.
) - I saw Berghof as being an ancient Suel realm, settled by a mix of Firstcomers and refugees in the years after the RoCF.
