What has come to strike me is the paucity of major ports as reflected on the map belonging to any one nation. Of minor ports in addition to those shown on the map there are doubtless many. But I am thinking in terms of large ports that can support large ship yards and naval fascilities sufficient to support a large navy.
While Venice and Genoa were historical city states - one port towns - that fielded significant navies, they were more exception than rule.
On the Azure Sea we have (by way of the original Darlene Map) -
The Sea Princes have two major sea ports - Port Toli and Monmurg
Keoland has one major seaport - Gradsul
The Principality of Ulek has Gyrax
The Pomarj has two major seaports - Blue and Highport
The Wild Coast has/had three major seaports - Safeton, Fax and Eldredd
Hardby has Hardby
Nyrond has two major sea ports - Mithrat and Oldred
The GK has one major seaport - Prymp
Onnwall has one major sea port - Scant
Irongate has Irongate
Idee has Naerie
The SB has one major seaport - Kro Terlep.
Almor would have once added Chathold.
When the GK was a unified whole it had four major seaports on the Azure Sea -
Prymp
Scant
Irongate
Naerie
Two conclusions seem to jump out.
1st - Once upon a Malachite Throne, the GK would have been the dominate power on the Azure Sea.
2nd - Since the founding of the Iron League to the GH Wars, naval power on the Azure Sea would have been relatively even.
3rd - The SB's rise to naval supremacy post-FtA is premised on the deus ex machina that sees it control Kro Terlep, Scant, Monmurg, Port Toli and is importing naval forces from Duxchan in the Lordship of the Isles that lies outside of the Azure Sea basin.
On the last score, the GK's naval might was once upon a Malachite Throne even greater if the ports of Pontylver, Rel Astra, Oakheart, Attirr, Kaport Bay, Bellport, Winetha and Roland are added to the mix, even as they are not on the Azure Sea.
I think the second point is the most important. The "natural" balance of naval power in the Azure Sea favors no one. There is no dominant naval power because no single power has enough ports on the Azure Sea to support such dominance.
Of note, allied states cannot be taken to mean combined naval forces, else Nyrond and the Iron League would have dominated the pre-FtA Azure Sea. _________________ GVD
There is the indifferent Oeridian sailors angle to consider as well (as I'm sure Sam will be along to explain shortly ). And the fact that number of ports alone doesn't guarentee primacy (cf Venice vs the Ottomans, Portugal vs Spain; Holland vs England). Technology and expertise will trump sheer weight of numbers every time.
That's not to say that the GK didn't rule the coop in the Azure for a time, but I'd give Keoland a goodly chance to hold its own, since it was organised eariler and could have added at various times Gryrax, Monmurg, Port Toli, Blue and Highport to its tally of ports.
Another factor is the structure of the GK - the way it was split into Viceroyalties by Nasran. So while Aerdi seafaring in the North Province and along the Solnor Main might have hit the height of its glory in the time of Atirr Aedorich in the middle of the second ceutry CY, the Herzog of the South Province could have been more interested in collecting pressed flowers.
And it's hardly a deux ex for the SB to gain power in the Azure by taking over all but three of its regional rivals (Irongate, Keoland and PoUlek). For years people have said -"The SB plan during the GH Wars makes no sense!", when in fact it achieved the perfectly valid aim of defending the homeland of Shar, by taking control of the Azure Sea and Tilva Straits (in the short term at least).
But yes -I'd agree with the general point that historically it would have been hard for anyone to dominate the Azure. In fact, there's probably an as yet uncovered history of naval spats between the GK and Keoland (and perhaps even between Nyrond and Keoland).
I will renew my suggestion for a postfest on all things naval.
I do not know enough about these issues, but think Woesinger is right about it being more complex. The thing that jumps into my mind is the history, I think it was Sam's rather than LG, of Keoland creating "ports" in Salinmoor to help fight the Toli. IIRC, that does not include Saltmarsh, although I do not know what they did in the latest incarnation. What ports there are other than Seaton, I do not know, but there could be several places to land ships that are not noted on maps a towns or cities of substantial size.
There is the indifferent Oeridian sailors angle to consider as well (as I'm sure Sam will be along to explain shortly ). And the fact that number of ports alone doesn't guarentee primacy (cf Venice vs the Ottomans, Portugal vs Spain; Holland vs England). Technology and expertise will trump sheer weight of numbers every time.
. . . But yes -I'd agree with the general point that historically it would have been hard for anyone to dominate the Azure. In fact, there's probably an as yet uncovered history of naval spats between the GK and Keoland (and perhaps even between Nyrond and Keoland).
"Indifferent Oeridian sailors" is a make weight. Any currency it has is attributable to EGG focusing on events on land, having either no interest or knowledge of navies. Even then, it is an assumption in a vaccume.
Venice vs the Ottomans was not a one on one fight. Venice was allied with the Holy League, without which (particularly Spain) the Med would have been an Islamic lake after Lepanto, as the Ottomans would there have vastly outnumbered the Venetians.
Portugal's success came only at Spanish sufferance. As soon as Spain moved to check Portugal's ambitions, Portugal was checked, eventually to be forcibly annexed by Spain.
Holland vs England is a more even thing as Holland had a number of large ports, even if they were geographically close together, whereas England's were spread out over a greater countryside. It is the number of ports capable of producing ships as well as supplying them, not geographic size necessarily.
Technology and expertise do not always triumph over numbers, particularly in the medieval period because the technological gaps were not as great as would later be the case when, for example, the modern American fleet destroyed the more primitive Spanish fleet at the Battle of Manilla Bay. There is no equivalent in the Renaissance or Middle Ages.
I like the idea of Aerdi, Nyrond and Keoland all mixing it up in the Azure. With the occasional pirate fleet out of the Pomarj or the Hold. More players make for more interesting scenarios.
Interesting thought. If the Keoland, Aerdi and Nyrond fleets might be roughly equivalent, then, ships from lesser states could have provided the balance of power. More interesting scenarios! _________________ GVD
What ports there are other than Seaton, I do not know, but there could be several places to land ships that are not noted on maps a towns or cities of substantial size.
We can always rewrite or add to canon, nothing wrong with that and it happens with regularity. I looked primarily at the Darlene map as a common baseline. Later maps complicate matters if we grant "major port" status to newly represented ports. Still, even so, things don't change that much, except with maybe Nyrond emerging as a bit more dominant player. The Azure remains, however, without a single demonstrably dominant player (accepting the SB "miracle at sea"). _________________ GVD
I'd comment on the "indifferent sailors" angle, but I don't think its particularly relevant. As Woesinger noted, number pales behind technology and expertise. That's why England, poor and puny (in population) compared to the Habsburgs wound up ruling the world, and even the Dutch managed a colonial empire.
Further, to add to his note about splintered efforts because of the system of Viceroyalties, I will add a note about sheer age. Gradsul was founded in -368 CY. Scant was founded in 12 CY, while Irongate wasn't completed until 124 CY. That's over almost 400 years, and nearly half a millenium, of near absolute Rholan dominance of the Azure before the Great Kingdom even shows up. And, as I noted on the slavery issue, when the GK finally did show up as a naval "player," it is a mere 130 years later (254 CY) that Furyondy goes, 232 years (356 CY) to Nyrond leaving, and 322 years (446 CY) to the Iron League forming, taking those Azure Sea ports away from the Great Kingdom. And if that wasn't bad enough, that collapse corresponds precisely to the Tavish Era in the Sheldomar. (Monmurg build in 301 CY, Highport built in 305 CY.) So right when the GK could have made their big move for dominance, Keoland countered, and by the time the Tavish Imperium was collapsing, the GK was locked in civil war and heading for worse.
The real problem though is operating off a false premise. Specifically, that dominance of the Azure Sea is required for some reason or other. It isn't, by any means. Why?
For dominance of the Amedio, a Sheldomar nation merely needs to control the coast from Gradsul to Jeklea Bay. For the most part, this means the bases on Flotsom, Jetsom, and Sybarate Islands. From there, you have the resupply bases you need to make Jeklea Bay a private lake. That means outsiders have extremely limited options for resupply in the area. Despite the desire, don't confuse Jeklea Bay with the Caribbean. It isn't by an absurdly long shot. There are dozens of acceptable harbors for ocean going vessels in the Caribbean, hundreds of anchorages, and thousands of islands to hide out on. It is a practically made for piracy. Jeklea Bay isn't. With control of the Jeklea, you can project an immense amount of power up and around the "Hook," into the Olman Islands, and down into the Densac Gulf. The Olman Islands, while not a pirate paradise, are significantly more open to such use. That is where your conflicts will occur, and that is where we switch our focus.
For dominance of Hepmonaland, you need dominance of the Tilva Strait and the Duxchan Island group. (The Lordship of the Isles basically, the island chain goes all the way to Asperdi.) You can split control if you have one of those, taking either the Densac Gulf side or the Solnor Ocean side. With neither, you are basically just asking for trouble unless you are a naval power on the level of Spain, Portugal, England, or the Netherlands. (And remember, Spain turned into a has-been, and Portugal decided to be "satisfied" after a certain point, so it is more just England and the Netherlands.)
That leaves the Sea of Gearnat to control Wooly Bay and Relmor Bay. That requires both Blue and Scant, or the whole thing remains open.
So where does that leave the naval powers of the Flanaess?
Sheldomar - Overwhelming dominance of the Amedio (Keoland or Sea Princes), half control of the Sea of Gearnat (Keoland or Pomarj)
Scarlet Brotherhood - Half dominance of Hepmonaland, primary pest in the Amedio, gain the Iron League elements with the Greyhawk Wars
Great Kingdom - Nothing after the Iron League split
Iron League - Half dominance of Hepmonaland and the Sea of Gearnat
Anyone Else - Minor Scroungers
Actual control of the Azure Sea is pretty near irrelevant. It is control of 2 ports, half a dozen islands, and one strait (by a single port most likely) that matters. Everyone else can sail through the central Azure Sea all they want, but they won't get anything for it. It is like the Atlantic when considering the Caribbean. It is just the big bunch of water in the way. Control of it is secondary to controlling those locations. Control all those locations, and control of the Azure Sea follows as a side effect.
Technology and expertise do not always triumph over numbers, particularly in the medieval period because the technological gaps were not as great as would later be the case when, for example, the modern American fleet destroyed the more primitive Spanish fleet at the Battle of Manilla Bay. There is no equivalent in the Renaissance or Middle Ages.
Tech doesn't always triumph, but it does tend to tip the balance. An equivalent in the Dark Ages:
Technology and expertise do not always triumph over numbers, particularly in the medieval period because the technological gaps were not as great as would later be the case when, for example, the modern American fleet destroyed the more primitive Spanish fleet at the Battle of Manilla Bay. There is no equivalent in the Renaissance or Middle Ages.
Tech doesn't always triumph, but it does tend to tip the balance. An equivalent in the Dark Ages:
As Woesinger noted, number pales behind technology and expertise. That's why England, poor and puny (in population) compared to the Habsburgs wound up ruling the world, and even the Dutch managed a colonial empire.
However, they did neither during the Renaissance or Middle Ages, although the foundations for later success were then begun. Unless we want to admit of Age of Sail anachronisms, and nothing says thats wrong, the examples are inapposite.
Samwise wrote:
Further, to add to his note about splintered efforts because of the system of Viceroyalties, I will add a note about sheer age. Gradsul was founded in -368 CY. Scant was founded in 12 CY, while Irongate wasn't completed until 124 CY. That's over almost 400 years, and nearly half a millenium, of near absolute Rholan dominance of the Azure before the Great Kingdom even shows up. And, as I noted on the slavery issue, when the GK finally did show up as a naval "player," it is a mere 130 years later (254 CY) that Furyondy goes, 232 years (356 CY) to Nyrond leaving, and 322 years (446 CY) to the Iron League forming, taking those Azure Sea ports away from the Great Kingdom. And if that wasn't bad enough, that collapse corresponds precisely to the Tavish Era in the Sheldomar. (Monmurg build in 301 CY, Highport built in 305 CY.) So right when the GK could have made their big move for dominance, Keoland countered, and by the time the Tavish Imperium was collapsing, the GK was locked in civil war and heading for worse.
Here we get into a fascinating, IMO, area of naval technology. How fast did it advance, in what forms and where? Allowing for Keoland's head start, other nations could later simply jump on the Keoland technological bandwagon, "catching up" with fair ease, never themselves having to have spent long centuries developing the technology they simply adopt. I think it safe to say long centuries for the Suel Imperium has not been revealed as a naval power; Keoland would then have been largely inventing the technology.
Samwise wrote:
The real problem though is operating off a false premise. Specifically, that dominance of the Azure Sea is required for some reason or other.
I set forth no premise but rather a conclusion. I was not "going anywhere" with idea ab initio, necessarily, simply observing on the situation.
But as we're speaking of such matters. The Azure Sea has four chokepoints -
1) The Tilvot Straight
2) The Olman Island Passage
3) The Fairwind Island Passages
4) The Gearnat Passage
None of these chokepoints prevent passage to the Amedio south of the Hook, once one enters on to the Azure Sea.
Access to Hepmonaland is entirely controlled by the Tilvot Straight and the Olman Island Passage.
Access to Jeklea Bay is entirely controlled by the Fairwind Island Passages, note the plural. There are actually 4 main passages and 2 subsidiary passages (created by Flotsam Island). While certainly not the Caribbean, neither is control of the main passages a simple matter of a base on each of the 3 main passage islands. The area of water to cover remains formidable as do the size of the islands themselves, which may offer anchorages or be goals in and of themselves.
The Gearnat Passage is both extremely wide but also both contested (by Blue and Scant) and crowded (with all the Wooly and Relmor Bay traffic).
Only the Tilvot Straight is easily controlled.
Of course, regional powers will enjoy regional advantages of nearness of support and supply facilities. This statement of the obvious, however, does not necessarily translate into the fact of control both for geograpgic reasons and historical ones.
The Tilvot Straight is the easiest example of a controllable choke point as noted.
The Olman Island Passage is open to contest from any nation entering on the Azure Sea. Such entry from the Gearnat Sea is virtually unopposed as Blue and Scant are both opposed and of insufficient size to dominate the Passage. Essentially, any nation on Wooly or Relmor Bay that wants to enter the Azure Sea via the Greanat Passage will have little difficulty doing so.
If one could control the Fairwind Passages, then one would have some greater propinquity to the Olman Island Passage and thus greater prospects for control but this assumes much. Keoland, obviously, is the nation best geographically positioned to control the Fairwaind Passages and then the Olman Island Passage. Canon history, however, demonstrates anything but the ability of Keoland (or the SB) to keep ahold of the islands of the Fairwind Passages, leaving the Olman Island Passages open, beyond even an inference of control.
So. The Fairwind Passages are open, perhaps even in those ages where Keoland was on a roll. The Gearnat Passage is open. And the Olman Island Passage is open. Only the Tilvot Straight is choked off with any certainty. In short, the Azure Sea is pretty much available at all points to all nations entering upon that body of water.
Circling back around to where the OP began, this fits with the notion that naval power in the Azure Sea is largely balanced, with no dominant player (excusing the SBs "miracle at sea"). From a metagame standpoint, this is good design, wide open to adventure from practically any direction.
As for why control of the Azure Sea could be at issue, I imagine exotics from the Amedio and Hepmonaland - spices and the like. _________________ GVD
SW: “Despite the desire, don't confuse Jeklea Bay with the Caribbean. It isn't by an absurdly long shot. There are dozens of acceptable harbors for ocean going vessels in the Caribbean, hundreds of anchorages, and thousands of islands to hide out on. It is a practically made for piracy. Jeklea Bay isn't.”
I cannot agree with that. The Darlene map did not show any very small islands and therefore it cannot be assumed that there are no equivalents to the Leewards and Windwards. Notwithstanding Dungeon’s maps supersizing Sybarate, that island in UK1 was one such small island that was not shown because it was too small. With the Amedio being roughly the equivalent to South American, the Hold, particularly from the islands, being established by piracy and the islands shown looking an awful lot like Cuba, etc., it is very clear to me that Jeklea was intended to the equivalent of the Caribbean, at least with respect to being made for piracy. That was the point.
Gygax may have done a half bass job of considering all the factors when clobbing together that notion, but there it is. It may make even harder Keoish or tSB control, but so what. Tavish is dead and tSB is just begging to be knocked off.
The Darlene map did not show any very small islands and therefore it cannot be assumed that there are no equivalents to the Leewards and Windwards. Notwithstanding Dungeon’s maps supersizing Sybarate, that island in UK1 was one such small island that was not shown because it was too small. With the Amedio being roughly the equivalent to South American, the Hold, particularly from the islands, being established by piracy and the islands shown looking an awful lot like Cuba, etc., it is very clear to me that Jeklea was intended to the equivalent of the Caribbean, at least with respect to being made for piracy. That was the point.
And this is a good point, well made, I think.
I think it is beyond question EGG intended the Fairwind Archepeligo to be a pirate haven. And what author would have pirates and take a pass on a fantasy Caribbean; its an natural. Ask Johnny Depp. And the Amedio is obviously a South/Central American analog, what with our Olman friends. So the nearby islands? Survey says - Caribbean! A strong circumstantial case.
And,
At 30 miles per hex, it would be asking a lot to say that every island was noted. Obviously, such is not the case and indeed cannot be the case (hence Sybarite Islands late appearance). I guess that leaves the exact extent of the islands and islets of the Fairwind Archepeligo up for grabs but leaning toward Caribbean after all.
This is my day to stand corrected. ::bows to Wolfsire:: _________________ GVD
SB miracle at sea: Well - they were tactically and, in the short term, strategically canny by capturing the enemy fleets intact by undermining the countries from within and decapitating the leadership. That gave them temproary control of the Azure without a fight. Which is just as well, since the one naval battle they did engage in (Gradsul) didn't work out so well for them.
Of course, the strategy was doomed to failure in the long term, since they couldn't hope to hold the ground, having exposed themselves to military attack. And so - the miracle unravelled within a few years.
The question of naval tech is a good one - as it seems to have developed from zero to late Renaissance in about 1,000 years. Well, it might not be zero. If we assume the Suel either had a signficant occupation of parts of Zahind and/or an inland sea, then they'd have developed some naval tech that might have escaped the RoCF as knoweldge that could have been put to use in Keoland (perhaps the Rhola had lands on the shores of the Inland Sea?).
There's also the Olve, who appear to have had naval tech down pat. The Flan, esp over on the Solnor Coast may have had some naval tech - I'm thinking stuff like Galway hookers and sailed currachs.
Still, the Oerids, having originated as steppe nomads would have had to play most catch up, which explains their, at least initial, indifference at sailing. They may have picked up tech from the local Suel, Flan and Olve - but I'd go so far as to say that they didn't really get their naval tech properly together until the colonisation of the Asperdi Isles, which in turn set up the glories of Atirr Aedorich. That explosion of Aerdi navalpower, I think, was preceded by some technological leap - be it a set of hull designs or master shipwrights acquired from Keoland or whatever.
However, they did neither during the Renaissance or Middle Ages, although the foundations for later success were then begun. Unless we want to admit of Age of Sail anachronisms, and nothing says thats wrong, the examples are inapposite.
They did both constantly. I'm not sure which Battle of Lepanto you were referring to, but the one with Don Juan was definitely decided by ability rather than numbers. And I take it you are also not familiar with the Battle of Actium, or any of a number of Greek victories over the Persians at sea.
No anachronisms here, just pure talent over numbers.
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Here we get into a fascinating, IMO, area of naval technology. How fast did it advance, in what forms and where? Allowing for Keoland's head start, other nations could later simply jump on the Keoland technological bandwagon, "catching up" with fair ease, never themselves having to have spent long centuries developing the technology they simply adopt. I think it safe to say long centuries for the Suel Imperium has not been revealed as a naval power; Keoland would then have been largely inventing the technology.
Never mind the technology, just the sheer duration and national support. Keoland was sending out explorers and setting up minor colonies for centuries before the GK could even try.
As for technology, while the others could copy Keoish technology, Keoland would still sit on the cutting edge of developing new technology because they were already doing the research. Copying a design is easy. Copying a research center isn't.
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I set forth no premise but rather a conclusion. I was not "going anywhere" with idea ab initio, necessarily, simply observing on the situation.
You set forth a premise that control of the Azure Sea was relevant. It isn't.
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But as we're speaking of such matters. The Azure Sea has four chokepoints -
1) The Tilvot Straight
2) The Olman Island Passage
3) The Fairwind Island Passages
4) The Gearnat Passage
None of these chokepoints prevent passage to the Amedio south of the Hook, once one enters on to the Azure Sea.
Passage isn't relevant. Support over distance is relevant. If someone controls the Olman Islands, they have 500? 1,000? less miles to travel before a complete refit is available. That is incredibly relevant. A good portion of the colonial expansion on earth was driven by getting access and control of such stations.
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Access to Hepmonaland is entirely controlled by the Tilvot Straight and the Olman Island Passage.
It is not.
Control of the Olman Islands is only relevant if your home port is on the Azure, and in such a case the Tilva Straits will be more important.
The entire east coast of Hepmonaland is accessible through the Duxchan Islands, not the Tilva Strait.
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Access to Jeklea Bay is entirely controlled by the Fairwind Island Passages, note the plural. There are actually 4 main passages and 2 subsidiary passages (created by Flotsam Island). While certainly not the Caribbean, neither is control of the main passages a simple matter of a base on each of the 3 main passage islands. The area of water to cover remains formidable as do the size of the islands themselves, which may offer anchorages or be goals in and of themselves.
The problem is not distance to a base, not the existence of a base itself. By controlling those islands you can patrol the passages with coasters that can dock every few days, allowing you to carry significantly more military ordinance and personnel.
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The Gearnat Passage is both extremely wide but also both contested (by Blue and Scant) and crowded (with all the Wooly and Relmor Bay traffic).
Which is only relevant to trade with Nyrond and the Nyr Dyv states.
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Of course, regional powers will enjoy regional advantages of nearness of support and supply facilities. This statement of the obvious, however, does not necessarily translate into the fact of control both for geograpgic reasons and historical ones.
Well actually it does. Only a state totally committed to being a naval power, like England, has a chance of projecting control beyond its continugous borders on such a scale. That's why the Turks couldn't hold Malta or the Balearic Islands in the long run.
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The Olman Island Passage is open to contest from any nation entering on the Azure Sea. Such entry from the Gearnat Sea is virtually unopposed as Blue and Scant are both opposed and of insufficient size to dominate the Passage. Essentially, any nation on Wooly or Relmor Bay that wants to enter the Azure Sea via the Greanat Passage will have little difficulty doing so.
Which is why piracy can flourish around them. However, final domination is going to be beyond any power but Sheldomar/Keoland or the SB because of simple proximity because there are no Englands in the Flanaess.
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Canon history, however, demonstrates anything but the ability of Keoland (or the SB) to keep ahold of the islands of the Fairwind Passages, leaving the Olman Island Passages open, beyond even an inference of control.
Actually, canon history is quite insistent that the Fairwind passage can be dominated. It therefore follows that control of the Olman Islands does not automatically follow from control of the Fairwind group.
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So. The Fairwind Passages are open, perhaps even in those ages where Keoland was on a roll. The Gearnat Passage is open. And the Olman Island Passage is open. Only the Tilvot Straight is choked off with any certainty. In short, the Azure Sea is pretty much available at all points to all nations entering upon that body of water.
No, the Fairwind passages are constantly closed, as is the Tilva Strait. The Gearnat remains open, as do the Olman Islands. That means the Azure Sea is generally open as a highway, but it doesn't give anyone the ability to exploit all of it, or beyond it.
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Circling back around to where the OP began, this fits with the notion that naval power in the Azure Sea is largely balanced, with no dominant player (excusing the SBs "miracle at sea"). From a metagame standpoint, this is good design, wide open to adventure from practically any direction.
No it doesn't. You are again skipping steps in your analysis.
Having proven that control of the Azure does not exist, and that it is not necessary, the question then becomes what the balance of power is in the various areas. Just because Jeklea Bay is a Keoish or Sea Prince private lake does not mean either can project power off the coast of Idee. Just because the SB can seal the Tilva Strait doesn't mean they can threaten the Sea of Gearnat.
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As for why control of the Azure Sea could be at issue, I imagine exotics from the Amedio and Hepmonaland - spices and the like.
That will be more determined by control of the Amedio and Hepmonaland, not control of the Azure Sea.
Notwithstanding Dungeon’s maps supersizing Sybarate, that island in UK1 was one such small island that was not shown because it was too small.
No, see, what actually happened is that the Sea Princes hid Sybarate by destroying all maps in the world that included it. When its existence nevertheless was discovered, they tried making false maps where the island was made to seem smaller than it really was.
Other things the Sea Princes have tried to hide:
The Duchy of Berghof
The Olmans
Zindia
Rel Deven
The Scarlet Brotherhood
The Celestial Imperium
Fireland
Aquaria
Rauxes
The quasielemental and paraelemental planes
Modrons
Halfling feet
Castle Zagig
Weapon resistances
THAC0
Geryon
Prince Thrommel
Otiluke
Carl Sargent
Dave Trampier
Fred Weining
Does the fact that countries that could be maritime powers (Onnwal, the Urnst states, Furyondy at least on the Nyr Dyv, Ratik, Northern Aerdy, Idee before the wars), but are not mentioned as such, mean that these countries have been checked in some way by their rivals? I can easily see Irongate or Nyrond, for example, fighting Onnwal and Idee to keep these other powers from developing their own navies...who knows, maybe the Onnwal-Nyrond War of 528-534 CY pretty much broke Onnwal's naval power, from which it would not recover for decades.
Northern Aerdy and Ratik probably suffer much at the hands of the Ice Barbarians, who probably raid them more than they do the Sea Barons (given that the Sea Barons probably win out against the Ice Barbarians more often than not, at least in my vision), but they have so far failed to develop any strong naval forces. Furyondy obviously dominates the Nyr Dyv, but even it is probably an also-ran by Flanaess standards, constantly worn from fighting pirates out of Dyvers and Greyhawk, to say nothing of Urnstian privateers. The Urnst navies are pretty weak by Flanaess standards too.
As for the Principality of Ulek and Keoland, I somehow doubt that these would be very strong naval powers either. Ulek has little in the way of naval traditions, being culturally dominated by the dwur, and Keoland's navy was mentioned by EGG as being "battleworthy but small", and constantly plagued by the Sea Princes. Tavish III refused to fight the Sea Princes by sea, which again suggests that Keoland's navy isn't the best. Combine that with Keoland's very long and very rich tradition of military cowardice and incompetence, and it's no wonder Keoland's fleet is rated sub-par by Flanaess naval experts.
To me, the only true maritime powers in the Flanaess are the Sea Princes, Lordship of the Isles, Irongate, the Scarlet Brotherhood (especially after converting the southern states to its banner), the Sea Barons, and the Ice Barbarians. Nyrond and Onnwal had strong fleets before the wars, but now these are decimated. As for Keoland, the Urnst states, Furyondy, the Principality of Ulek, the Pomarj, Northern Aerdy, Ratik, and the Frost and Snow Barbarians...well, their navies are poor to mediocre at best. Some of them (PoUlek, Keoland, the Pomarj, Northern Aerdy, the Urnst states) might have privateers in their employ, but their navies are pretty pathetic overall.
Might the presence of intelligent undersea races put something of a kibosh on landed countries' attempts at naval dominance? I seem to at least recall some mention of Sahuagin about... http://www.canonfire.com/cf//modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=396
Not to mention encounters in the old L1 module. Any others I've missed?
I bet they keep coastal communities in check.
Last edited by CBorg on Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
Does the fact that countries that could be maritime powers (Onnwal, the Urnst states, Furyondy at least on the Nyr Dyv, Ratik, Northern Aerdy, Idee before the wars), but are not mentioned as such, mean that these countries have been checked in some way by their rivals? I can easily see Irongate or Nyrond, for example, fighting Onnwal and Idee to keep these other powers from developing their own navies...who knows, maybe the Onnwal-Nyrond War of 528-534 CY pretty much broke Onnwal's naval power, from which it would not recover for decades.
The Nyr Dyv states are not going to be oceanic naval powers simply because they've got too much to do elsewhere, and limited access. The Duchy of Urnst could try to regularly project power down the Nesser, but a simple blockade could cut its fleet off from its home bases.
Ratik is simply too small, and has too many issues with its land borders to develop a significant navy.
Onnwal is going to have a significant navy, having Irongate to serve as its army.
Idee will have a minor navy, having a massive land border to defend.
Northern Aerdy has limited options for a significant navy, having to defend against barbarian attacks in season, and compete with other Aerdy states in trade.
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As for the Principality of Ulek and Keoland, I somehow doubt that these would be very strong naval powers either. Ulek has little in the way of naval traditions, being culturally dominated by the dwur, and Keoland's navy was mentioned by EGG as being "battleworthy but small", and constantly plagued by the Sea Princes. Tavish III refused to fight the Sea Princes by sea, which again suggests that Keoland's navy isn't the best. Combine that with Keoland's very long and very rich tradition of military cowardice and incompetence, and it's no wonder Keoland's fleet is rated sub-par by Flanaess naval experts.
The Prince of Ulek's navies are manned by his human subjects in Gryrax, which is stated rather clearly.
Keoland, while it might have a small navy, obviously increased it in size if it was able to stand up to and defeat a combined Sea Prince-Lordship-Scarlet Brotherhood fleet at the end of the Greyhawk Wars, albeit losing 1/4 of its strength.
Tavish III didn't refuse to fight the Sea Prince by Sea. He simply chose to secure a victory on land, knowing that without land bases the Sea Prince navies were doomed. Remember, Tavish IV killed the Sea Prince in a naval battle.
Conflicts with the Sea Princes plaguing the realm should be taken in context, as it is noted that the Sea Princes turned to trade.
I agree their is no dominant naval power like england, CSL and Sam present a compelling case. In most cases the nations of the Flanaess have land borders to worry about which forces nations to choose their army over the naval power.
As for GK; clear naval priority and expertise was concentrated within the Sea Barons (Offensive Operations) with other coastal ports providing enough local ships to protect local shipping and defend the sea approaches, even the South Province naval strength is just enough to provide parity with Nyond on Relmor Bay with heavy reliance on privateers. Given the need for a strong army since it's enemies and most desired prizes have a land border, not to mention the possiblity of civil war or internal dissent.
Most other naval powers mentioned; like Irongate follow suit with navies that provide local superiority and protect local merchant shipping. None of these nations have the desire to focus resources since the loss of a large navy doesn't neccessarily doom a nation while a shattered army might.
The reliance by many navies on privateers shows the desire of nations to focus on army and do the navy on the cheap; relatively speaking navies are extermely costly.
Given the lack of island nations with the needed size, resources and isolation to truly focus on naval supremancy (LoI and Sea Barons are interested in the Solnor and effectively check each other). The only naval power with a chance to attempt it is the SB, which I know is unpopular.
However; logistically the SB is in the best location to exploit the naval aspect given their geographical isolation and safety of the homeland, centralized organisation and resources. Even if the SB abandon the hold mainland; the Fairwind passage (Isles), Amedio bases and Olman Isles ports still should allow them to maintain a stranglehold (more or less) on southern Azure trade.
Onnwal is mentioned as a naval power in fact. It gave the Pomarji pirates and the South Province fleets a good kicking in the War of the Golden League (when it was apparently allied with its old "foe", Nyrond) - see the old Gary G. and Rob K. articles in Dragon 79 or so.
I don't buy this Nyrond vs Onnwal line at all. If Nyrond breaks Onnwal's naval power in 534 CY, it's just put a noose around the neck of its only naval ally against the fleets of Prymp (aside from Almor - which didn't seem to project much naval power) and kicked the stool away. It gives the South Province fleet free rein in Dunhead Bay to blockade Northanchor and Kildeer and leaves the Storm Coast of the Dragonshead open to attack. So now Nyrond has strengthened its enemy, weakened and alienated the entire Iron League and forced itself to stretch its fleets thinner to stop Onnwal and Irongate being invaded by sea by the South Province (which, let's face it, is the only way Imperial troops were going to get onto the Dragonshead).
It. Makes. No. Sense.
This isn't alignment or "no good nation would attack another good nation". This is brass tacks real politik.
That's not to say that Nyrond threw its weight around a bit and was resented in Scant and Irongate for it, although Dunstan the Crafty turned Nyrond away from its imperial path in 450 CY, recognising that pissing off its neighbours was going to leave it friendless when the Great Kingdom next came a-knocking. This was likely inspired by the ascention of Ivid I to the Malachite Throne - Ivid being a far more capable and dangerous man than any of the Rax overkings that had preceded him. So - Nyrond pulls its forces out of the Pale and Urnst, where they're doing no good at all, uses them to back Almor's break from the Great Kingdom, thus gaining a useful buffer state and supports the Iron League rebels in the south to open a new front against the suddenly more dangerous Naelex Great Kingdom. Dunstan was indeed a crafty fellow.
Onnwal is mentioned as a naval power in fact. It gave the Pomarji pirates and the South Province fleets a good kicking in the War of the Golden League (when it was apparently allied with its old "foe", Nyrond) - see the old Gary G. and Rob K. articles in Dragon 79 or so.
It. Makes. No. Sense.
Sure it does, if you consider the reasons for the trade war and the perceptions at the time. What seems absurd to us today makes perfect sense for the protagonists of the war way back when.
Onnwal, for the record, had set up a partial blockade of the Sea of Gearnat, putting in steep tolls that it was using to finance its continued naval expansion. Nyrond is none too pleased at this, losing both sea trade and being forced to pay tolls to reach the Azure Sea and Woolly Bay, so it commands Onnwal to stop. Onnwal, livid over what it sees as threats and bullying, refuses. Nyrond tries continually to use diplomacy to convince the Onnwalians to listen to reason, but Onnwal refuses.
It's only when the exasperated Nyrondese, both pressured by mercantile interests and livid over the blockade of the sea-lanes, use force to break the blocking. The war lasts longer than expected, but Nyrond eventually comes out victorious, setting Onnwal's navy back a decade and serving as little more than a waste of resources on both sides.
Is it stupid? By modern standards, probably. But statesmen do foolish things that they believe are sensible at the time-World War I ring a bell? How about the U.S. and its allies squabbling during the Cold War? Some people today might deplore the way Charles de Gaulle baited the U.S., while at the time his actions might have been justified.
Mutual misunderstandings and legitimate grievances on both sides can easily lead to something that spirals out of control...as it did in the Nyrond-Onnwal War of 528-534 CY. Besides, at the time Irongate was another strong navy, and in any case the Aerdi fleet was made up of a bunch of stinking third-rate tubs, so the naval threat wasn't as big as one might have otherwise worried. _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
Is it stupid? By modern standards, probably. But statesmen do foolish things that they believe are sensible at the time-World War I ring a bell? How about the U.S. and its allies squabbling during the Cold War? Some people today might deplore the way Charles de Gaulle baited the U.S., while at the time his actions might have been justified.
Actually, you'll have to go back a bit more than that for anything that overtly violent.
The Austro-Prussian War was pretty close, as were the alliances of convenience of the Russo-Turkish War. Before that you'd have the Quasi-War.
There are some more examples before that, especially some of the truly perverse alliances of the Reformation era. The Thirty Years War would be a prime example of that.
So yeah, maybe its possible, but you should have a better time frame for it.
Actually, you'll have to go back a bit more than that for anything that overtly violent. The Austro-Prussian War was pretty close, as were the alliances of convenience of the Russo-Turkish War. Before that you'd have the Quasi-War. There are some more examples before that, especially some of the truly perverse alliances of the Reformation era. The Thirty Years War would be a prime example of that.
So yeah, maybe its possible, but you should have a better time frame for it.
Well, what I meant was thzt statesmen of the past could do things that seem stupid to people in hindsight but seemed perfectly reasonable at the time. De Gaulle and the U.S. sniping at each other while the Soviets were the real threat (according to some historians) might seem moronic to us in retrospect, but at the time both sides probably felt justified in their actions. That doesn't mean France and the U.S. fell to war, but there were the same kinds of mutual aggravations and emotions on both sides when a common foe still threatened them. _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
IF you assume the South Province was slumbering at the time, then a squabble between Nyrond and Onnwal is possible. The dates you mention straddle the end of the reign of Ivid III and the beginning of the reign of Ivid IV. We know that the middle Ivids were little concerned with the outside world, except occasionally almost ritually attacking Nyrond and Almor and we hear little or nothing about the Hertzogs of the South in this period.
If you contrast this to the ascention of Ivid V in the 550s, who appoints the Chelors with the express orders to reclaim the south, it is possible that the South Province was on the nod in the early decades of the 500s. In that case, if an imminent threat was absent, then its possible that Onnwal and Nyrond would have squabbled over trade.
That said, I think that raising tolls is likely to hurt Onnwal more than it'll hurt Nyrond. Nyrondese ships heading towards Hardby would simply bypass Onnwalon ports entirely. Trade through the Straits is little more tricky. The Onnwalons would be foolish to try to impose a toll on passage of the straits, since ships would simply ignore it, refuse to heave to or fight if boarded, which will piss off Keoland AND Nyrond AND Ulek AND Greyhawk and the Urnsts. Where they could have an effect is on excises to berth at Scant - which would be an important stop over for ships plying the routes between the Azure and Gearnat (esp. the Gradsul/Gryrax to Gearnat ports route). Even so - again I'd think it'd hurt the Onnwal exchequer - since all ships have to do is lay in more food and water and sail right by.
Well, what I meant was thzt statesmen of the past could do things that seem stupid to people in hindsight but seemed perfectly reasonable at the time.
Yes, and what I meant is there is stupid and then there is war. There is a rather sharp line between the two.
As for other effects, I agree with Woesinger. There will be fees, but the higher they are the less trade Onnwal will get, and the worse off they will be. Especially Given the width of the straits. The English Channel couldn't be significantly hampered before the 18th century, and the Straits of Gibraltar couldn't be sealed before the 20th. Without gunpowder, closing the Gearnat Straits will be near impossible.
Which is not to say that a foolish szek mightn't have tried it out as a policy, but he wouldn't have needed the Nyrondese to sail in and destroy his fleet to realise it was a bad idea - his own merchants and nobles would probably have done Nyrond's work for it and given the Platinum Diadem to someone more "reality-based".
The English Channel couldn't be significantly hampered before the 18th century, and the Straits of Gibraltar couldn't be sealed before the 20th. Without gunpowder, closing the Gearnat Straits will be near impossible.
I hate to ruin this perfectly good comparitive historical lesson by mentioning the obvious but yes, I am talking magic. Even at a low magic campaign it cannot be ignored that the Keoish have Sea Mages, the SB make malign use of magic for naval purposes and it doesn't take much imagination to figure that the Aerdy have magic weilding navies given their history of martial magic. Gunpowder would certainly make all ships in a navy equally potent, but if done right, magic can make just one ship the equivalent of a high speed, sonar using, offensive-defensive destroyer against medieval vessels. That alone can make life difficult going through a strait.
Just in case, here are some examples of naval magic items -just- from GH Adventures: Rod of the Aerdi Sea (defensive, cloaking device), Rod of Onnwal (defensive vs winds and missiles), Scant Wand of Storms (offensive-defensive, tactical use), Disk of the Azure Sea (defensive-cloaking), Hasty Barge of Nyr Dyv (defensive vs sea creatures, increased speed), Horn of the Azure Sea (offensive, fear power), Iron Pin of the Icy Sea (defensive vs hazards, directional device), Stormrider of Gearnat (defensive vs weather, increased speed)
And I hate to ruin a casual appeal to magic, but a wizard's spell capacity is more limited than a warships stores of gunpowder and shot.
Yes, magic will cut down on getting lost and storm damage, but its overall effect on combat is not going to be that decisive unless completely unmatched.
Given the duration of most spells, and the number a low level caster can be expected to have access to, they might be decisive in a particular instance, but they won't be decisive on a regular basis.
One fireball won't destroy a ship. And it would take at least two missiles if not all three from a 5th level caster to kill even an average 1st level warrior with magic missile. Other spells that would be useful won't have the range.
So barring 9th+ level casters on every single ship, magic is going to enhance combat strength, not define it. And at the point that you've got dozens of such casters running around on your ships, you've not only eliminated any concept of mundane combat, but left yourself open to explaining why long distance trade isn't just dominated by teleportation. Sure those 9th level wizards mess up 6% of the time (3% of the time if they have private pads to teleport too in each market area), but 13th level wizards are always safe, and it just takes 1 overachieving 17th level wizard to set up a permanent teleportation circle network. Control of sea trade routes becomes irrelevant at that point.
Mages on every boat, fireballs, magic missiles, etc. I wasn't going to go that far, demographics of mages is what I planned on avoiding. My main intention is that magic enhanced vessels and or items in possession of senior crewmembers is effective enough to coordinate the standard naval group. The original intent of Sam's quote that I came in on, was 'closing a strait' not naval combat per se. Detection, Communication and Intercepting is key in this case and from the items I listed many can help avoid a blockade too.
Mages on every boat, fireballs, magic missiles, etc. I wasn't going to go that far, demographics of mages is what I planned on avoiding. My main intention is that magic enhanced vessels and or items in possession of senior crewmembers is effective enough to coordinate the standard naval group. The original intent of Sam's quote that I came in on, was 'closing a strait' not naval combat per se. Detection, Communication and Intercepting is key in this case and from the items I listed many can help avoid a blockade too.
OK, and what level spell of detection would have a range of 10 miles? Or even 1 mile?
What level spell of communication is going to allow immediate, extended, coherent contact at 30 miles?
What level spell will accelerate a ship long enough to close over that distance?
The items you named are useful, but:
Rod of the Aerdi Sea - fog cloud in a 20 ft radius won't save a ship of any decent size, spectral forces and programmed illusion are going to wind up useless against a crew of 50, at least one of who will make a save.
Rod of Onnwal - is useless, it won't stop missiles, and becalming your own ship is a great way to commit suicide in a naval battle.
Scant Wand of Storms - sounds great, but the big damage power is limited to 70 yards (barring a conversion upgrade), and is thus of less use than otherwise, and the big power comes with a 30% chance of wreaking major havoc, hardly worth it.
Disk of the Azure Sea - is great for merchants to escape trouble, but useless for a navy to control an area.
Hasty Barge of Nyr Dyv - great if you want to commit suicide by going under the first time the weather picks up at sea.
Horn of the Azure Sea - useful 1/week, at night, and probably only by an evil captain to get some undead fire support, marginal at best.
Iron Pin of the Icy Sea - an excellent item for navigating between points, which will cut down on incidental losses and speed concentrating a fleet, but otherwise of marginal use in battle.
Stormrider of the Gearnat Sea - an exceptional item, combined with an Iron Pin, it will make the owner master of sailing, it won't however guarantee victory in combat, and I expect it is a prime candidate for its cost to surge, and I doubt every ship in a navy could be built that way.
Overall, none of those items are of great value in controlling the seas.
Now we could turn to Stormwrack for some new items:
Admiral's Bicorne - nice bonuses, costs 50K. ZOUNDS!
Everfull Sails - incredible bonuses, costs 12K . . . per mast! That's 36K for an average galleon, more if we count the bowsprit.
Living Figurehead - 40K+.
Sails of Displacement - 120K.
Secure Lines - at 10,800 gp, this qualifies as "reasonable," and provides a nice bonus, but is still pretty costly.
As for spells, Wake Trailing, if you can find a 7th level druid or 11th level ranger, will change things dramatically. Of course, finding one of those opens the whole demographics issue again.
Favorable Wind will make a significant difference in combat, and a 5th level druid or wizard isn't out of the question. It will almost certainly ensure that galleys become obsolete in short order, at least for combat.
OK, and what level spell of detection would have a range of 10 miles? Or even 1 mile?
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1st level.
Locate city, a 1st level spell from Races of Destiny, has a range of 10 miles/level. My sorcerer uses it for GPS. She moves around a lot; Rel Astra does not. Knowing exact distance and direction to a fixed point makes her orienteering a lot easier. This trick only really comes into its own at higher levels, though, and I take your point that other low-level divinations have nowhere near as much scope.
Locate city, a 1st level spell from Races of Destiny, has a range of 10 miles/level. My sorcerer uses it for GPS. She moves around a lot; Rel Astra does not. Knowing exact distance and direction to a fixed point makes her orienteering a lot easier. This trick only really comes into its own at higher levels, though, and I take your point that other low-level divinations have nowhere near as much scope.
And that will only help you launch sneak attacks from out of sight of the coast, it won't help you find enemy fleets sneaking around.
Its a useful spell, one of the few ones, but not a sea control spell.
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). And the fact that number of ports alone doesn't guarentee primacy (cf Venice vs the Ottomans, Portugal vs Spain; Holland vs England). Technology and expertise will trump sheer weight of numbers every time.
