Zagig (or Zagyg) the Mad Archmage needed 9 demigods to complete his apotheosis into godhood. However, by most accounts Iuz was not a power when he was imprisoned in 505 CY but emerged as a divinity in 570 CY. For those new to this topic and/or lacking the access to the relevant passages about it here they are:
++++++++++++++
Iuz had been trapped by the mirthful and mad Zagig, locked away in a strange chamber deep below the ruins of Greyhawk Castle, one of nine powerful demi-gods so confined. These prisoners were loosed in 570 CY, and once again Iuz rules, and his forces gather for fell purpose. Iuz has vowed to bring ruin upon Tenser the Archmage and Lord Robilar and the others who tried to slay him when his prison was sprung.
The World of Greyhawk Gazetteer, pg. 12 & The World of Greyhawk Fantasy Game Setting, pg. 27.
Comments: Its probable that Iuz was a demigod in Gygax's original entries on Iuz's imprisonment. The language strongly points to Iuz being a demigod when imprisoned.
++++++++++++++
While Iuz was locked beneath Castle Greyhawk, his homeland was able to wait for its master because his proximate servants controlled the humanoid rabble (orcs, goblins, and especially hobgoblins, swollen by recruitment from the old Horned Society lands). When Iuz was freed in 570 CY, he had great plans for the Flanaess. Risen to the power of a demi-god, Iuz has achieved more than a few of his initial goals. From the Ashes, pg. 29
Comments: While not definitive, the order of the sentences of the paragraph strongly imply that Iuz rose to demigod status while in his confinement. If he was a demigod prior to incarceration it would make more sense to place a reference to his apotheosis before it.
++++++++++++++
Iuz’s banishment was long indeed, one reason why defenders of good where slow to respond to his reappearance. A strange alliance freed Iuz in 570 CY, seeking to slay him. This tale is long in telling and will be recounted below. But, the creature returning to its homeland was no cambion tanar’re now. How Iuz became a demigod is a secret any sage of Oerth would give an arm and a leg to discover. Zuggtmoy, Iggwilv, Graz’zt and Lolth are all said to have some part, perhaps even unwittingly. The unpredictable and mighty magics Zagyg unleashed within Castle Greyhawk are unknown in their effects. Iuz’s own unquenchable will, and wilding magic mightier than any cambion almost from his birth, may be part and parcel of his destiny too. Istus and other Greater Powers know, but they are not telling.
Iuz the Evil, pg. 3
Added 12/14
Those who imprisoned Iuz below Castle Greyhawk consist of many of the most important beings in the World of Greyhawk: the mad Archmage Zagyg, St. Cuthbert, and the four quasi-deities Heward (the mage-bard), Murlynd (paladin-wizard), Keoghtem (bard-mage) and Kelanen, the Prince of Swords. Why they allied to banish Iuz is unknown; probably, each had his own purpose. What is certain is that, while Iuz may hate these six and wish revenge upon them, his scope for vengeance is strictly limited. After all, even Iuz would have a hard time challenging a demigod, an intermediate god, and four quasi-deities. In addition, those six dwell on planes other than the Prime Material, so they are beyond luz's immediate reach
Ibid, pg. 5
Comments: The first selection is definitive that Iuz became a demigod while imprisoned.
++++++++++++++
For sixty-five years, Iuz was imprisoned beneath Castle Creyhawk by an alliance of adventurers (including the Mad Archmage Zagig), possibly with the assistance of an avatar of St. Cuthbert. In 570 CY, Lord Robilar, his orc henchman Quij and Riggby Patriarch of Boccob, freed Iuz. The archmages Bigby and Tenser arrived, intending to kill him, but during Iuz's incarceration the half-demon had transformed, and he emerged a demigod and escaped. He dreams of destroying the Free City of Greyhawk and those who nearly killed him when he was released.
Greyhawk Player’s Guide, pg. 24
Comment: Again definitive.
++++++++++++++
Political struggles within Furyondy prevented the king from acting decisively in this period, when the evil of Iuz might have been permanently checked. Instead, the cambion lord flourished until 505 CY when he appeared to vanish from Oerth. In truth Iuz was imprisoned beneath Castle Greyhawk by the Mad Archmage Zagig Yragerne, former lord mayor of Greyhawk. In Iuz’s absence, orc tribes and disloyal former subjects squabbled for control of his lands allowing the forces of weal to rest for a time.
Three developments kept Furyondy and its allies from complacency. First, part of Iuz’s leaderless realm soon broke away to be ruled by a nearly equal evil, the Horned Society.
Second, [description of Temple of Elemental Evil manipulated by Iuz’s consort, Zuggtmoy].
Third, faithful orc and human servants of Iuz became zealots dedicated to their absent lord. In time, the leaders of these cults devoted to Iuz displayed magical power, igniting Furyondy’s worst fears. In 570 CY, a meddlesome warrior-adventurer named Lord Robilar freed Iuz from his imprisonment. Iuz returned to his lands more powerful and wicked than before, with an unholy priesthood leading his forces in his unholy name.
Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, pg. 14-15
Added 12/14
Comments: Not definitive, but strongly in favor. Iuz's priesthood doesn't gain spells until after his incarceration. The end of the entry is definitive that he was more powerful than leaving than when he entered.
++++++++++++++
I am going to assume that Iuz was not a demigod when captured by Zagig, St. Cuthbert and the Hero-Gods 4 for the purpose of my theory on the nature of Iuz’s apotheosis. My next post will build a case for Zagig helping Iuz ascend to godhood for his own reasons and the Greater Powers of Good and Evil having a roll to play in it.
Bryan Blumklotz
AKA Saracenus[/b]
Last edited by Saracenus on Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:18 am; edited 6 times in total
Iuz was certainly a demigod when he was imprisoned. I don't think there should be any question about that.
First of all, if he wasn't a demigod, then Zagyg would have initially imprisoned eight demigods, not nine.
Secondly, isn't employing St. Cuthbert and four quasi-deities overkill in binding a mere cambion?
Thirdly, we know exactly how Iuz rose to divinity, and it had nothing to do with his imprisonment or with Zagig. He used the Soul Husks (Iuz the Evil, page 22 and elsewhere), powerful wizards and extra-planar creatures whose power was extracted by Iuz in a horrifying arcane ritual.
It does seem that the Greyhawk Player's Guide explicitly contradicts this. One solution is that the power of the Soul Husks hadn't entirely transformed him at the time of his imprisonment, but Zagig knew it would by the time he was freed.
However, I still think it makes no sense that Iuz wasn't a demigod already. I would ignore the Player's Guide in this instance. It doesn't fit with the rest of the canon.
Iuz was certainly a demigod when he was imprisoned. I don't think there should be any question about that.
Rasgon,
I know the contradiction in canon on this point. However, it only the original 1980 Gazetteer that states that Iuz was a demigod before his incarceration. Every other source has him mortal before being locked up by Zagig.
It is not unquestioned that Iuz was a demigod prior to imprisonment. If in your campaign you wish it to be so, so be it. I am going to present a hypothesis about how Iuz could be imprisoned and made a god to further Zagig plans for his own apotheosis.
I will post up my outline tonight, if people want to debate its merits that is fine. If people don't care, that is fine as well.
Thank you for your input.
Bryan Blumklotz
AKA Saracenus
Last edited by Saracenus on Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
If Iuz was not a demigod when captured, how and why would Zagig help our favorite evil psycho attain godhood?
Lets look at Iuz at the time of his capture:
1) He had brutally conquered the petty fiefs and bandits of his homeland and brought humanoids into his army coming to the attention bringing the attention of the lands of good:
King Avras of Furyondy grew concerned about the rise of evil to the north of his lands, and the elves, rangers and good forces of the Vesve began fighting in earnest for the safety of their homeland against the increasingly well-trained and marshaled humanoids in Iuz’s service.
Iuz the Evil, pg. 3
2) He was making alliances with Zuggtmoy (her servants would later hide his soul gem on her layer of the Abyss).
3) While not a god he was well on his way to becoming one. He had drained the Soul Husks as a step towards ascension.
Within [the heavily guarded Soul Husk Caverns], some six structures are found which resemble ten-foot-tall chrysalises. Each contains a shriveled remnant of a humanoid form, reputed to he the mortal remains of a powerful wizard or extra-planar creature which had its being extracted by Iuz through some horrific and arcane magical ritual. The energies gained by Iuz in those monstrous rituals are part of his being now. Iuz cannot destroy these remnants, since he would lose part of his power in so doing.
Iuz the Evil, pg. 22
The powers of Good see the rising threat of Iuz and turn loose their pitbull, St. Cuthbert, on this proto-power with the blessing of the Evil powers (specifically Nerull), “but that Ned’rull's croaking voice was decisive in giving permission.” (Iuz the Evil, pg. 6).
St. Cuthbert’s avatar, 4 hero-deities, and the then mortal Mad Archmage Zagig capture and imprison a powerful but mortal Iuz.
Theory 1: Iuz was ready to make the leap from mortal to godhood when captured. Unfortunately he didn’t have all the pieces of the puzzle and could not make the leap without some instruction.
It is my contention that Zagig sees a chance to make a grand jape (at the expense of St. Cuthbert), and get one of his nine in one fell swoop. He has the powered up and ready Iuz locked up so he makes a deal with him. Iuz gets the missing pieces to his own ascension and Zagig gets a demigod to power his own in turn. Iuz unfortunately gets a joke played on him by Zagig, he is bound to Oerth and the material plane, limiting his power and reach.
Theory 2: Nerull is willing to let powered up Iuz be imprisoned because he knows that the process that Zagig is going to give him will add a powerful member to evil but limit Iuz as a pretender.
Next post will deal with some other details I am still working out.
Every other source has him mortal before being locked up by Zagig.
Your quotes don't support that. Only the Player's Guide states this explicitly. The other sources are either neutral on the subject or say that he was a demigod already.
Quote:
It is not unquestioned that Iuz was a demigod prior to imprisonment.
It's not unquestioned, because you just questioned it. I don't believe the any other thesis is tenable, however. It's simply not reasonable for him to have been mortal at the time of capture.
My understanding is that Iuz used the power of the Soul Husks and their contents to transform himself into a demi god. This caused St. Cuthbert and the four Quasi deities to immediately react to this threat by aiding and abetting his imprisonment by Zagyg. This explains the confused nature of the quotes (Iuz was a demi god when imprisoned, but this was not widely known as he hadn't done anything yet), the fact that a priesthood of the new god arose while he was imprisoned, and coincides with the story of Zagyg's own apotheosis.
If you posit that he was not yet transformed, then either of your theories would work. But the former (a deal with Zagyg) makes more sense IMHO. Though you could say that the transformation took time to settle in and he was captured before he had time to internalize and learn to use his newfound power. So he was, in effect, mortal when captured and divine when he was freed, without requiring any deals.
I never go the impression that Iuz was 'trapped' on the prime material plane any more than is Fharlanghn, Wastri, or the other gods with the Prime as their home realm. It would make for some interesting dynamics, though. In general, however, I think Iuz needs to be made more scary and threatening rather than less.
I think it's possible that he was a very minor demigod when he was captured (rank 1 or 2 by 3rd edition standards), and transformed into a much more powerful demigod during his imprisonment.
A number of things would account for that - his growing cult of orcish and human worshipers would be the primary source of his rise in divine might, I think.
This would satisfy all of the sources, without having to ignore any of them.
I've chatted with Saracenus about some of his theories. Give him a bit to finish and the apotheosis idea will most likely take everything argued into account. At least I hope so :P
I cannot be at this Thursday's chat (previous engagement). I will be updating this thread with background and my basic premises. I plan to be at next weeks chat to discuss it.
I have updated my first post with improved references and commentary.
I am not going to say that Iuz being a demigod is correct, nor am I going to say that it is incorrect. I believe I have shown that canon conflicts on this issue and I going to present one possible theory of what happened from the side that Iuz was not a demigod at the time of imprisonment.
I am not presenting this as the ultimate truth, but as one that might intrigue a DM and add some interesting layers to the Iuz back story. If you find my stance repugnant, then by all means ignore it. If you want to have an open mind about my musings then enjoy the ride and see if what I have thought up resonates with you...
Well, most folks here don't give a rat's pitootie about whether canon does or does not support a particular article, as long as that article is interesting and well written. IMC, Iuz transformed himself into a demonlord, not a demi god since I have a very altered cosmology of "gods vs demonlords" going on.
I just happen to disagree about whether the texts are really conflicted in a meaningful way. Mind you, the Player's Guide is chock full of these sorts of half arsed misstatements, so its hardly surprising to find one on this subject as well.
IMO there is no question about whether or not Iuz was a demi-god at the time of his imprisonment. As others have stated that is the only logical conclusion of the original material despite what later sources stated.
However, the notion that Zagyg aided the ascension is an intriguing theory despite the lack of a valid reason. (Who needs a reason when you are a mad arch-mage?) IMO such aid would likely have been given prior to the imprisonment. Perhaps the cambion and the arch-mage worked together at the soul husks to experiment on ways of becoming divine. Zagyg wisely let Iuz take all the risks in the experiment and when success was reached he blew the whistle on Iuz to the good guys who came and helped Zagyg imprison the demi-god before he could truly explore his new powers. Then Zagyg used Iuz as part of his own ascension with a tried and tested method.
Doesn't that sound probable? _________________ Never say blip-blip to a kuo-tua
Interesting reading, perhaps I'll have to drag myself to a chat again soon :D _________________ Allan Grohe<br />https://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html<br />https://grodog.blogspot.com/
I always worked on the assumption that the imprisonment of the nine demigods was the final trial that Zagig had to undertake to become divine.
Whether or not, given his patronage of Zagig, The Uncaring One had some vested interest in seeing the Nine imprisoned, is, of course, another question.
Canon conflicts are not uncommon, as later authors have either purposely changed some things or were completely ignorant of them to begin with. For the most part I go with the earliest example as being THE authority, and the earliest example in this case is blatant enough.
I was just browsing through OJ8 again and noticed something interesting relating to this debate. In an article about Wastri, Russell Timm wrote of Wastri's imprisonment by Zagyg:
"Based upon what is known of this incident, it is speculated that when he was liberated through means unknown, only then did he emerge as a true demipower. Before this, it is assumed that Wastri was only a powerful mortal, or at most a quasi-deity."
Not a canon source, of course, but interesting that someone else had a similar idea.
Canon conflicts are not uncommon, as later authors have either purposely changed some things or were completely ignorant of them to begin with. For the most part I go with the earliest example as being THE authority, and the earliest example in this case is blatant enough.
A wise decision. Lucasfilm has a policy in dealing with inconsistencies in the various Star Wars spinoffs: The movies come first, then the film novelizations/radio dramas, then the other stuff. If something from a comic book contradicts what you see in the movie, the movie takes precedence. For example, in one of the books from the RPG, Owen Lars is described as Obi-Wan Kenobi's brother. In the movies, he's Anakin's stepbrother. Therefore he's Anakin's stepbrother and the RPG book is ignored. For me, Gygax Greyhawk >Kuntz/Ward >everything else.
Trying to reconcile true Greyhawk with much of the later material is futile . The whole idea of "canon" in a GAME is silly anyway. There are so many things that can change with a single failed saving throw that it's a waste of time.
A wise decision. Lucasfilm has a policy in dealing with inconsistencies in the various Star Wars spinoffs: The movies come first, then the film novelizations/radio dramas, then the other stuff.
Off-topic, I know, but you've just baited a SW geek.
How are consistancy problems WITHIN the movies decided?
Like in Episode V when Yoda is hesitent to train Luke, and Ben says "Was I any different when you trained me?" and then in Episodes I and II we find that Ben was never apprenticed to Yoda, just to Qui-Gon. So what decides whether Ben was an apprentice to Yoda?
Sorry for the thread jack! Please return to Iuz! _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
Like in Episode V when Yoda is hesitent to train Luke, and Ben says "Was I any different when you trained me?" and then in Episodes I and II we find that Ben was never apprenticed to Yoda, just to Qui-Gon. So what decides whether Ben was an apprentice to Yoda?
[threadjack continued]
Ah, but Obi-Wan was apprenticed to Yoda! Remember that Yoda is the one who trained all the "younglings" when they first entered the Jedi order, before they were paired off as padawans to Jedi masters. Thus, Yoda did train Obi-Wan — from a certain point of view....
You're wrong DMPrata. The fact that someone had a teacher in grade school means he or she was never taught by anyone else after that. No middle school, high school, college... It's out of the question.
You're wrong DMPrata. The fact that someone had a teacher in grade school means he or she was never taught by anyone else after that. No middle school, high school, college... It's out of the question.
So, if I were to bump into my old 6th-grade teacher, I couldn't say something like, "Remember when you taught me?" just because I've had numerous other teachers since then???
Like in Episode V when Yoda is hesitent to train Luke, and Ben says "Was I any different when you trained me?" and then in Episodes I and II we find that Ben was never apprenticed to Yoda, just to Qui-Gon. So what decides whether Ben was an apprentice to Yoda?
[threadjack continued]
Ah, but Obi-Wan was apprenticed to Yoda! Remember that Yoda is the one who trained all the "younglings" when they first entered the Jedi order, before they were paired off as padawans to Jedi masters. Thus, Yoda did train Obi-Wan — from a certain point of view....
[/threadjack]
Point well taken. Thanks. Though I'm not sure how much "no patience" and "much anger in him, like his father" would apply to a four year old Obi-Wan, identified at birth and raised by the Jedi. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
Yoda also took over as Obi-Wan's mentor after Qui-Gon died. Although he was a full Jedi at that point, Yoda still continued to teach him patience and understanding, especially in the harsh way Obi-Wan dealt with his own apprentice. I'm certain this is what he was referring to.
Back to the main subject, in Greyhawk I go by whatever I think is more interesting. It doesn't matter to me whether it was published earlier or later.
How many demi-gods can dance on the head of a pin?
Saracenus wrote:
Zagig (or Zagyg) the Mad Archmage needed 9 demigods to complete his apotheosis into godhood. However, by most accounts Iuz was not a power when he was imprisoned in 505 CY but emerged as a divinity in 570 CY...
-How about: "Iuz had briefly been a demi-god when captured (after rising from "hero"-god), but then quickly lost power as a result of his imprisonment (i.e. demoted back to hero-god), but then, as the years went by, and those in his homeland continued to worship him, he slowly regained his power, and returned to the rank of demi-god?
That would cover this objection to Iuz having spent some of his imprisonment as only a hero-god:
rasgon wrote:
...First of all, if he [Iuz] wasn't a demigod, then Zagyg would have initially imprisoned eight demigods, not nine...
...and this one:
rasgon wrote:
...Thirdly, we know exactly how Iuz rose to divinity, and it had nothing to do with his imprisonment or with Zagig. He used the Soul Husks...
...and this one:
rasgon wrote:
...Secondly, isn't employing St. Cuthbert and four quasi-deities overkill in binding a mere cambion?
...although I'd point out, that when a SWAT team goes in to take out a bad guy, they use everyone who's ready to go; they don't say "Well, this guy wasn't Special Forces or anything, so why don't half of us just go to Dunkin' Donuts?"
I do admit that the possibilty that Zagyg cut some sort of a deal with Iuz is intersting, tho'; the two aren't mutually exclusive.
Since this thread originally appeared, we've learned more about the nature of Zagig's prison in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. While the Godtrap does empower its master (and was indeed the means by which Zagig attained divinity), it apparently does the opposite to its prisoners.
From page 188:
Quote:
The gemstone in the wall shatters, and Iuz the Old emerges into the room as a shaking, feeble old man. His time in the prison, short as it was, has drained him.
Quote:
Like Iuz, both Robilar and Zuoken are shaken and weak.
Other quotes:
Quote:
With great effort and assistance from Boccob and St. Cuthbert, Zagig cut a shard from the obelisk, using the power to entrap nine demigods in specially prepared prisons meant to siphon their divine energy. [page 6]
Quote:
To become a deity, Zagig needed to capture nine demigods as catalysts, and Iuz made an excellent candidate. [page 7]
James's suggestion that the power of the Godtrap demoted Iuz all the way down to hero-deity status or less and he subsequently rose again over the period of 65 years (due to power from his worshipers, the Soul Husks, and whatever else), is a good one, I think, and I would go with that.
Since this thread originally appeared, we've learned more about the nature of Zagig's prison in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. While the Godtrap does empower its master (and was indeed the means by which Zagig attained divinity), it apparently does the opposite to its prisoners...
-I don't have all the latest toys (and probably won't, for a while).
I'm currently trying to figure out which WOTC products don't "suck". From what I can tell on Canonfire, apparently, none of them!
rasgon wrote:
James's suggestion that the power of the Godtrap demoted Iuz all the way down to hero-deity status or less and he subsequently rose again over the period of 65 years (due to power from his worshipers, the Soul Husks, and whatever else), is a good one, I think, and I would go with that.
IMC, I never went so far as to figure out whether or not Iuz was actually a demigod when he was captured. However, I did work in an explanation for his involvement with the ToEE during his incarceration. For those whose memory fail them, there has long been some debate as to how Iuz could have visited the Temple of Elemental Evil in 569 when he wasn't released until 570. I explain this seeming contradiction in canon thusly: Iuz was able to exert his will from within the godtrap by finding a "crack" in the godtrap's magic, allowing him to take control of one of his minions (I used Vaene). This minion became, in effect, an avatar of Iuz and it was in this guise that Iuz was able to visit the Temple while imprisoned. The visit was a drain, so Iuz wasn't able to visit in person until he was released by Robilar & company.
The big question I had to answer at this point was, "Why was Iuz willing to expend so much energy just to visit the ToEE?" The answer to that IMC is that he was attempting to use the various Tharizdun-related power sources (such as the obelisk in the moathouse) to gain greater power. While he considered this a clever subterfuge, he was in reality a mere pawn in Big T's master plan as played out in RttToEE and later in my own campaign.
How does this relate to the topic at hand? Consider this:
Perhaps Iuz was not a "true" demigod prior to his capture. He may have established a fledgling cult, and may have amassed vast power, but he wasn't quite there yet. Zagyg, thinking it easier to make his own demigod rather than capture one, decided to aid Iuz's apotheosis, planning to trick him and take him captive at the moment of his ascension. (Zagyg may have used a similar plan with Wastri.) Clearly, given the players involved, a lengthy give-and-take of trickery, lies, and betrayal must undoubtedly have ensued. Neither Iuz nor Zagyg is known as being what you might call "up front and honest."
Both succeeded in their plans, at least to an extent. Zagyg captured Iuz, but Iuz tricked Zagyg by not disclosing certain elements he needed to become divine. While he and Zagyg spent their time pursuing the use of the Soul Husks, Iuz's trusted agents (including his consort Zuggtmoy) were pursuing the "finishing touches" of the apotheosis process in the Temple. Thus, Iuz was able to "reach out" from the godtrap as described above not because he was powerful but because he was weak (= not divine). Zagyg's plan to become divine succeeded only because some of his other captives possessed sufficient power to overcome Iuz's relative lack thereof. After his release, Iuz travelled to the ToEE as described in canon, but had to bring in other agents to complete his apotheosis since the temple had by then been defeated and sealed.
On a related note, I'm currently working on an essay redefining the nature of Greyhawk's gods. I hope to have it published somewhere on Canonfire, hopefully in a month or two. It should resolve all these issues neatly, if I ever get it done.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
)