Canonfire! Forums-viewtopic-Dungeon 151 Lost Caverns Ch. 1 Published

Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:27 pm Dungeon 151 Lost Caverns Ch. 1 Published

Iggwilv's Legacy: The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth can be found here (DI login required):
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/duad/20071012

by Ari Marmell
art by Howard Lyon and Francis Tsai
cartography by Rob Lazzaretti

I haven't had a chance to read it but I have downloaded it and will try to get some time this weekend

In Service,

Bryan Blumklotz
AKA Saracenus

Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:16 am

Good find!

After a brief read of the background fluff I see that this adventure has been well researched for Greyhawk canon as it covers most of the bases of Iggwilv and Graz'zt's history. It even takes into account recent Iggwilv lore written by Holian which was nice.
Where it takes the biggest leap is on the new and quite explicit background of the mystery man Tsojcanth. I'll let the rest of you catch up on that part before I spoil it, but right now I have to say I like this take on Tsojcanth as it doesn't conflict with canon AFAIK. What little we knew about him before makes no difference because this adventure assumes his mortal history was but a ruse.
The rest of it on a skim looks like a good random hunt in/around Iggwilv's Horn, reminiscent of the original Lost Caverns mod. There's a nice map of the local mountains and the mod uses a Taint system from UA. Oh yeah, it looks like the cult of Tharizdun factors into this plot. Surprise. :P
Looks good, part 2 has me intrigued already with the picture at the end.

Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:38 am

It's a surprisingly solid adventure in terms of Greyhawk lore, satisfyingly filling one of the holes in the Graz'zt-Iggwilv saga (What was the nature of Iggwilv's disastrous experiment?). And is that Drelzna on the cover?

I really like the random weather and odd effects tables. The adventure itself leans heavily on Heroes of Horror, but uses the material well. I see a small error in the bibliography - Fraz-Urb'luu is not, in fact, described in the Book of Vile Darkness.

It even fits pretty well with my version of Tsojcanth, including even my mention of a "rift at the heart of reality." I wonder if the author read it?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:57 am

For my part, I found this adventure very meh. I didn't think the Greyhawk information was much other than prefunctory, given who we are speaking of and where (Iggy's HQ). The adventure itself left me feeling meh, as well. And the layout was really really nothing special to me. Hopefully, this adventure will pick up steam as it goes along. Of note, if it were not free, there is no way Iwould pay for this sort of effort.

YMMV, of course. Smile

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GVD

Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:42 am

From what I've seen so far, this is very good and I'm looking forward to the next chapter. S4 has always been my all-time favorite module and I was prepared for the worst, so its a nice surprise that it didn't disappoint me (yet!) The background does a nice job of pulling all the bits of story together, except for one thing:

SPOILER ALERT!

Why do writers have to resort to the half-fiend backstory by default? Iuz was first, which was fine and made sense in the context of Iggwilv's history. Then came Acererak, and now Tsojcanth. Sorry, this just comes across as laziness on the writer's part.

Other than that, this is definately worth checking out. With the exception to Maure Castle, this is one of the better revised classics.

Trevor

Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:31 pm

While I am more enthusiastic over the lore like rasgon I am with GVD on the fact that this was tempered by it being a free product. I might add though that this article was most likely slated to run under the paizo administration which for its own faults -was- Greyhawk friendly. We may not see articles with GH content of even THIS caliber in the near future from WotC if their initial 4E articles are any indication.

Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:48 pm

Just read this thing. Enjoyed it but I can't make a decision until I see what they do with the rest of S4. As for what we can expect in the future for Greyhawk, I'm guessing odd things here and there as they attempt to hook us into 4th edition and then keep us there.

I'm most worried about Maure Castle. I was enjoying the idea of more levels at some point, but now they'll do any new levels (if at all) in 4th edition. I don't know about you guys, but having played 1st to 3.5 I'm getting tired of new editions which mean conversions for my old stuff. I'm not a magic player and I wish Wizard's would stop trying to treat me as one.

Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:37 pm

Well, I have to say that this is more of a head nod than I expected to Greyhawk, by a long shot. I have not read it in detail as time has not allowed, but from what I veiwed, it was far more than expected. The simple inclusion of Tsjocanth as an Oerdian?!?!?!? Wow... not a fighter of ancient valor in the presitge flavor of the month!

It may not be enough for some, but I have to say that this is the stuff that will lure me in. Give me more. I agree with all the reticience, and fear... it is justified given the past of WOTC. However, IMO this is far beyond many previous efforts to appease us.

Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:41 pm

I'm not too keen on the tainted area warping the Gnome Vale (Thumbvale) and surrounding areas, plus the half-fiend angle is soooo overdone at this point. Other than that I found it a decent enough read, but nothing new is really offered, and quite few things get a wrench thrown into them. I'd prefer a simple re-publish of the old adventures rather than a "Return to" or "Expedition to" format, where past information is altered to fit the current project. Such material does not target a new audience at all, and is totally geared towards the old codgers who actually have heard of the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth. Nostalgia will not be enough to carry the story, so the authors better have something else up their sleeves.

I only see one major problem, that being that rather than get an actual adventure in an issue of e-Dungeon(if this even is an indicator of what the content will be), there is only "Chapter 1". Perhaps this is just part 1 of a 6-part adventure path. Two adventures per year! WOOHOO!!! Laughing

If this is the e-Dungeon format, then I'll surely be passing on it and the estimated $10 monthly fee, irregardless of what Greyhawk content each issue may or may not include.
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Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:29 am A Good Tsojcanth is Better

Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:48 am

When running the SCAP Surabar and Tsojcanth were the same person. I didn't particularly like the name "Spellmason" and I always envisioned Tsojcanth to be a Baklunish wizard from the days before the Invoked Devastation.

I liked the idea of a Baklunish wizard trying to undo some of the Suel's vile imperialist ideals (I always assumed that Cauldron was a Suel outpost and pretty much ignored Dungeon's history relating to Sasserine and Cauldron as being thrown together after the Twin Cats) I guess I will have to read the new background and see how much I like. I can pretty much guarantee I will throw away the half fiend bit, Surabar/Tsojcanth works much better as half-elemental or genasi.

Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:57 am

Surabar! That's the first I've heard that name. Even so I never really read the SCAP mods so I could go hunting if I were inclined. Confused

Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:30 am Surabar

Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:47 am

If you look at the old WoG folio the migration arrows show a big path of Suel heading down into the Amedio. Which is where all those pale and naked Suel tribesmen come from.

To me it makes much more sense that the feral Suel were partly there because of the collapse of the Suel Imperium but also to give a valid reason why they would migrate into the Green Nightmare after the Twin Cataclysms in the first place.

If you take the migration arrows at face value there doesn't seem to be much reason for them to head into the Amedio. Sasserine and Cauldron actually give a pretty good reason for them to head there.

With the collapse of the Suel Imperium you have a steady decline in both Sasserine and Cauldron and then suddenly you have an influx of Suel right before the Rain of Colorless Fire.

As Suel interests gradually turn inward as they face their war against the Baklunish, Cauldron and Sasserine become little more than ghost towns. But suddenly as people come pouring out of the Suel Imperium to get away from the horrible conditions both during the war and around the Twin Cats both areas become "boom towns" overloaded with refugees. The worst and most disruptive Suel would be forced out of the towns and further into the Amedio...anyway thats what I came up with for my SCAP campaign.

Tsojcanth/Surabar gave me two things: It gave me a name from Greyhawk history that my players would equate with. (After all Surabar Spellmason just sounded lame to me.) It also nailed down a racial background for "Surabar" that fit with what was written about him in the SCAP. A great elementalist that had much knowledge of gates to other planes.

Tsojcanth in my estimation had links to Daoud, a Baklunish who created a lanthorn of artifact ability and created his own religion becoming a deity in the process. I suppose the link to Daoud could simply be Iggwilv (herself Baklunish) gaining control of the artifact at some point, but I liked to imagine that Iggwilv simply took control of Tsojcanths caverns after he left them.

Anyway I had tons of this stuff written out for my SCAP campaign most of it my players never ever discovered.

Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:51 pm

Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:22 pm

Hey, guys. Thought I'd pop in to address a few of the comments and questions.

(Some potential spoilers follow.)

First off, regarding us making Tsojcanth a fiend, that wasn't just something we did for the heck of it. That fact ties into events that occur in the third part of the adventure. If, having read that, you still don't like that background--by all means, change it. Smile

But I hope you'll consider it in context first.

That said, when C.A. and I came up with this idea, it had been years since I'd read anything about Acererak. At the time, if I'd ever known that he was part fiend, I had forgotten it. (I wouldn't even have remembered now, if someone hadn't mentioned it upthread.) We deliberately wanted to echo the parentage of Iuz a bit, since the story heavily involves his mom, but I hadn't realized we were echoing any other major classic D&D villains. Sorry 'bout that. Embarassed

As far as the reliance on taint and Heroes of Horror, that's because when we first envisioned this--a long time ago Wink

--we'd just worked on that book. There was even some talk, for a while, of tying them in even more closely, since it was still a recent release at the time. Obviously, we didn't, and it shouldn't be too hard to remove those aspects of the adventure if you wish. I'm pretty sure that you could just ignore any reference to taint, and it wouldn't ruin anything except maybe the mood of a few specific encounters.

And I am glad to hear that people appreciate the use of Greyhawk mythology. I'm not as heavily into it as some (such as, say, Erik Mona Wink

), but I really do like the world. We did our best to make sure not to directly contradict anything, and to use as much as possible.

In any case, I'm happy to answer any specific questions (though I'd have to mostly talk about this chapter, since the forthcoming sections were written primarily by others).

(Uh, and if someone could tell me why I can't get my sig file to work properly, that'd be great, too. Embarassed

)
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<div>Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark</div>

Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:42 pm

Welcome to the CF forums Mouseferatu. My question isn't on the current chapter but I'm more looking for scoops. Are there any other classic Greyhawk mods you are working on for Wizards or would like to pitch?

Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:57 pm

Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:21 pm

Personally, I like what I've seen and it has rekindled my interest in WoG (if only my players could get so fired up over so little... Wink

). Since currently I'm kind of re-imagining WoG, I don't know how much of this I can actually use (especially since there isn't a connection to Iggwilv and Iuz in my revision), but I can always lift what I like. Cool

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Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!

Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:39 am

I like what I've seen so far. I quite like the use of the Heroes of Horror material, as that's my favourate book for 3.5. Cool

The idea of a village of insane, murderous gnomes just appeals to my inner madman.

But one potential problem: Is the adventure going to be entirely documented within one issue of Dungeon, or will it be spread over several issues? And will it be the same for other adventures?

Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:05 am

Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:44 am

Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:48 am Taint is Good

Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:30 am

It's really good so far. Introduction of Taint helps to make the region far more sinister. The original module never had a feel that Iggwilv's influence could still be felt and this will certainly add that.

One criticism to all updaters of old modules: DMs really hate having to make names up on the spot. If you are going to give a nod to a character from a classic mod by saying e.g. Laird Gwaylar died last year, please update the mod with some details about their replacement e.g. Laird Gwaylar Jr or Minty Gwaylar, the Laird's second cousin and guinea pig breeder now rules the clan.

Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:33 am

I just realised that this years Hallowen lands in my game night.

So, if the rest of the adventure lands in time, I can use it as a scary hallowen adventure, and finally get some serious use out of Heroes of Horror!

You hear that Mouseferatu? Get working! *cracks whip* Laughing

Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:57 am

Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:38 pm

Nice work on the background story. The first chapter made me count the days this week till the second chapter is released. I must have!! Happy

Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:18 am

Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:49 pm

The second chapter's up now. You have to download the first chapter again to get it, though.

The second chapter is the Lesser Caverns. It includes classic monsters like the stirge, pech, and gorgimera.

Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:21 pm

Huh. Looks like they broke the Lesser and Greater Caverns into two parts. So I guess it's a four-part series, now, instead of three.
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<div>Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark</div>

Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:44 pm

Egad! Please tell me it won't be like this when Dungeon goes subscription.

Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:51 pm Dungeon's New Problem

Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:18 am

Well, you have to consider that the only thing that kept Dungeon magazine from the players was player honesty (and, perhaps, unwillingness to subscribe).

Iggwilv's Legacy is being posted *for free* and as an exemplar of the kind of content folks can expect from Dungeon Online. So its going to attract a lot more interest than a similar dungeon in the print magazine. I think that once Dungeon is gated by subscription, you won't have the same problem as you had with Iggwilv's Legacy.

Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:39 pm Re: Dungeon's New Problem