Coincidently, I have been playing with the same idea as WotC has with the new 4thE Forgotten Realms having a spell plague, caused by the death of the god of magic. This now allows everyone to not have to ask for the use of magic anymore. And magic is up for grabs by everyone and everything!
What I want to ask here, is how would the same thing affect the World of Oerth? Tavag Barag. Mysterious black obelisks of magic. Zagyg's god machine. How are they intertwined with the god of magic anyways? Boccub is the Uncaring god of magic who doesn't care about clerics for sure so why have them? And if the arcane can be created with out a god, why have a god of magic? To me magic users are powerful because no one can do what they do. But up to 3.5E clerics have been on par with them because of divine aid plus prestige this and that, enabling them to go toe to toe with fighters. Clerics need to get back to their roots and that is performing ceremonies, rituals, agriculture and weather help, exorcisms, healing and turning undead!
I believe in the separation of arcane from divine. They shouldn't be crossed or mixed. A priest should be scared crapless when a wizard walks in the room and be envious of their innate use of spell use without divine aid.
Doing away with a god of magic doesn't change anything and will allow free reign for magic users to cast more powerful spells than the cleric could hope to achieve. A cleric must be pretty dedicated for their deity to boon them with secret knowledge or personal spells from them. But research and spellcraft should be left up to the wizard who gains potent use from it all. Not even a deity could do the same because spells are created out of nothingness, rather than this is the spell and you can only cast this. Leave that to the clerics who get what is given to them by their god. Wizards have free reign from this restriction. Even more, so, without a god of magic around.
A cleric shouldn't be envious of a wizard's ability to use magic without divine aid. Divine aid isn't a hindrance to be relied on by the cleric, it's a blessing.
Besides which, you can put the shoe on the other foot so to speak. Wizards ought to be jealous of clerics because they can actually heal people, cure diseases, turn undead, and any of the other things that are gifted through the divine connection that wizards do not possess. Take away a wizard’s spell book and he might get kind of miffed. Faith cannot so easily be parted from its owner however. It's all a matter of perspective.
All that being aid, there are both traditions of keeping divine and arcane magic separated, and of combining them. The Mages of Power looked on the gods as just very powerful beings, such that the Mages of Power themselves could one day achieve those heights of power if only they could learn the secrets of doing so. Their concept of "deity" was very skewed, as was their view of what divine magic really is. There are arcane spells that mimic healing powers, but they usually involve a transfer of life essence from one creature to another to "heal" them. If the Mages of Power could only learn that final magical secret, they'd be able to use regular cure spells too just like the supposed gods grant to their followers. Well, the Mages of Power were wrong, and in the end Wee Jas got her due. ;)
I see a certain level of distrust between clerics and wizards as being normal. One relies on faith, the other on more tangible things. It is with the followers of gods of magic that this level of mistrust either lessens or is nonexistent altogether, as they basically see arcane magic as a gift from the gods to begin with. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Clerics need to get back to their roots and that is performing ceremonies, rituals, agriculture and weather help, exorcisms, healing and turning undead!
For a village priest, give a basic NPC access to a few Rituals that represent his god. Priests of Berei have some agricultural rituals, Lydia priests have marriage rituals, etc. Reserve the Cleric class for NPCs that are equal in status to the PCs.
[/quote]I believe in the separation of arcane from divine. They shouldn't be crossed or mixed. A priest should be scared crapless when a wizard walks in the room and be envious of their innate use of spell use without divine aid.[/quote]
For village wizards, give a basic NPC access to a few Wizard spells. They will be able to blow apart any village priest. Reserve the Wizard class for NPCs that are equal in status to the PCs.
Coincidently, I have been playing with the same idea as WotC has with the new 4thE Forgotten Realms having a spell plague, caused by the death of the god of magic. This now allows everyone to not have to ask for the use of magic anymore. And magic is up for grabs by everyone and everything!
What I want to ask here, is how would the same thing affect the World of Oerth?
Bad idea. For starters, Greenwood gave FR the Midichlorians approach to Magic, which I've hated since day one. What makes Oerth fantastic is no single power has cornered the market on anything. Is Zagyg the most Mad? Not really, he was an apprentice of Lyzandred. Is Boccob the all powerful god of Magic? Certainly not, or at least he doesn't care enough to go for it
Unlike FR, Oerth gods aren't sticking their D!@K in everything and must follow the Pact of Nonintervention. In FR the PC's are little more that motes of dust in a world filled with active gods and Epic characters, not so in GH.
Since GH has lacked a genuine mechanical explanation for the forces of magic it's system independent. Not so with FR. I've played GH Fantasy Heroes and Ars Magica (very kewl) with not so much as a single fluff change because it's a very open setting. Not so with FR.
I agree with his Holiness here. I have never liked the all encompassing meddling of the gods in FR. It's the thing that has irked me from the get go. Also the wholesale stealing of ideas from Greyhawk, but that's another rant. Why does magic have to be tied to a God? I like the idea of Wizards being the characters so focused on the logical approach to offset the Clerics favor of the gods approach. Especially when the two get into discussions of the Multi verse after a few cups in the Local tavern.
For village wizards, give a basic NPC access to a few Wizard spells. They will be able to blow apart any village priest. Reserve the Wizard class for NPCs that are equal in status to the PCs.
I'm with you on clerics/village priests and hopefully we can work together to create lists of suggested rituals and abilities for particular priests once full rules are known.
I fall into the camp of don't bother with village wizards at all. Why on Oerth would someone who has learned the secrets of the universe want to hang out in some dead end village. Wizards as innkeepers and shopkeepers in ye olde modules always got the thumbs down from me.
If there are Alchemy rituals, I might allow the village hedge wizard to use those instead.
I've played GH Fantasy Heroes and Ars Magica (very kewl) with not so much as a single fluff change because it's a very open setting. Not so with FR.
I've played both of those systems as well, and I agree that Ars Magica is very cool. I can't say enough good things about it, and now Paizo(and probably others) has pdfs of the Ars Magica books. People ought to check it out, just to see how the Ars Magica magic system works. People should keep in mind that, at least in the older editions, mages are meant to be very powerful- more like Gandalf compares to Aragorn, but on a much lesser power level for beginning characters.
They'll also likely notice a few other things about Ars Magica that look very familiar to the mechanics of 3e+(i.e. Knacks). _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Yeah, several of the guys who wrote the Ars Magica rules ended up as part of the 3rd edition design team. Anyway, I'll add to the agreement that Ars Magica is an awesome system. Melee combat is a bit dubious if you go with the older editions. Its up to "not terrible" in 5th edition.
There are arcane spells that mimic healing powers, but they usually involve a transfer of life essence from one creature to another to "heal" them. If the Mages of Power could only learn that final magical secret, they'd be able to use regular cure spells too just like the supposed gods grant to their followers. Well, the Mages of Power were wrong, and in the end Wee Jas got her due.
Yes. Magic users should want to achieve Goddom because that should be their secret goal, in becoming a god! Paladins personify a Crusader or Templar. I think of clerics AS Paladins just a differing division of the church, as the Crusaders and Templar’s were. Deities should be mysterious and hidden. Clerics must call upon a bodyguard to call upon when the cleric can muster the ritual to commune with them. And look out when they do as they can cast down a wallop in columns of power to smite blasphemers or non-believers or enemies to their belief or gods!
The Wee Jas comment is really good! Yes! Wizards can only create or accomplish what a true cleric can by becoming a god, thus completing their task of replacing them by becoming one! What a crapper, eh? But it balances out the cleric’s power in perspective compared to wizards having to really work at creating, where a cleric just has to pray for! That’s a crapper!
Are there any ritual suggestions? I have been looking to Open Source companies for ideas. Not much in D&D land. I know 1stE in Unearthed Arcana tried to explore options and I think too many fans complained they were boring. They were, but not for the village priest who stays behind in the churches to hold congregations and who takes care of the flocks and sermons! The adventurer is the cleric who deserves the war spells to kick baddies butt! I am thinking rituals and such should be left to NPC control as most players or campaigns ground to a halt when this in-depth of role-playing is added to a game.
OleOneEye wrote:
For village wizards, give a basic NPC access to a few Wizard spells. They will be able to blow apart any village priest. Reserve the Wizard class for NPCs that are equal in status to the PCs.
I like this idea. It is easy to juggle around spell lists or to take higher spells and create minor or lesser versions so as to keep a little game balance. I would like to see an increase with players becoming more creative in using their skills or feats more to think out of the box with their spells, like casting magic missile at a cliff face to start an avalanche or a fireball or rock to mud to create land slides onto or across paths of bad guys. The Dungeoneer and Wilderness Survival Guides for 1stE were great for a lot of meta-gaming ideas with spell use (e.g. a wall of force as a step ladder or ledge for climbing down a crevasse). The village idiot, hermit, or mage could be the town provider where a priest couldn’t help structure the town except appease the masses with sermon and verse. The cleric comes in being the local sheriff sort of guy, where the mage is the architect, landscaper, wall fortifier, etc.
Unlike FR, Oerth gods aren't sticking their D!@K in everything and must follow the Pact of Nonintervention. In FR the PC's are little more that motes of dust in a world filled with active gods and Epic characters, not so in GH.
Why is it a bad idea for a spell plague? I am not using the same idea per se, just trying to come up with some sort of magic decision that magic goes awry. The black obelisks of the Flanaess obsorbs Boccubs divine power creating ley lines possibly?
Why is there a Pact of Non-intervention? Why do Gods care, or not care? I have a discussion similar to this very topic on another thread, so I am all keen to hear about this! But Personal Message me on this as I don’t want to wander from the main thread topic. Thanks!
Why do we have Gods if they are independent of mortals for power; thus why have Boccub? The Wee Jas suggestion is a reminder of the possibility of the attainability of becoming a god, but lest we forget, the gods were born with divinity so why or how have they allowed anyone from becoming or attaining divinity when it is their right to divinity and not to mortals?
Vecna, knowing secrets from the Serpent (no one has given any real explanation on this topic - not even by the author - on who the Serpent is), became a god by first becoming an arch-wizard who attained the secret to becoming immortal by becoming a lich. Further secrets were gleaned from Beory - I think - which enabled him along the way of finding the path to becoming a god. I think he was given a divine spark just to keep his mouth shut. I have twirled the idea of Vecna losing his divine status from the deity who imparted the divine spark to him making him an attainable epic challenge again to rid him once and for all!!! Heh! Maybe Iuz could beat him now?
Yes, a Midichlorians explanation. Left open for interpretation about the origin of spell use or psionics? I don’t know about the tiny microbe bacteria being the inner voice of magic in FR? Where did you get this, or is it your opinion in the know of the Weave? It sounds more of an explanation for psionics, where I have my own ideas for psionics: it deals with crossing into the Ethereal Planes’ Ghostwalk, or reaching into the Astral Plane of souls for spell use. Great gain in power is grasped at the cost of madness and Cthulu insanity ensues; a simliar path for clerics, who try understanding the meaning of divinity, and wizards, who try understanding on the nature of divinity.
Why have gods if their power is independent of mortals? For one thing, mortals don't "have" gods- the gods simply *are*. However, the gods want servants throughout the planes to represent their agendas, as each god believes in the importance of what they specifically represent. They don't need mortals for power whatsover, but they do want mortals to represent them. The Gods manifest their power through their worshippers, so the more worshippers they have, the more outlets they have to manifest their power upon the plane. Of course, some would equate "more worshipers=more power" when that is not the case at all.
The Oerth is merely one of many primes that the gods watch over. The more worshippers they have on a particular prime, the more interest they take in it; not the more power they have. This means that a god will be more likley to manifest an avatar on a plane where they have lots of worshipers, but the amount of worshipers has no correlation to the god's power. Mortals have to do things for themselves. A mortal's willing devotion to a god's particular cause by choice rather than necessity(or for what they may get in return) makes such devotion that much more pleasing to the gods, and such worshipers are more likley to be rewarded with a manifestation of the god's power, as clerics and paladins are.
The gods don't need to prove anything to mortals. They act when they want to and how they want to. Sometimes it is fairly obvious why the gods do what they do, but many times it is not obvious why they take a certain action, or no action at all. Comprehending the gods is beyond mortals.
In my mind, arcane magic is related to the natural world via a sympathetic tie, thus the need for related material components for most spells. Divine magic is supernatural and comes from the gods, and for that reason I really don't like the use of many material components for cleric spells unless they are holy/unholy in some way pleasing to the god that the cleric serves. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
For one thing, mortals don't "have" gods- the gods simply *are*.
I like that, "simply are," like Erik B. & Rakim, yo! Actually, D&D's default setting (which is Greyhawk) of deities aren’t reliant of a worshipper's prayers for divinity because most originating deities were born with divinity, "though it’s clear that many use worshippers to augment their power," as it says in 3.0E Deities & Demigods.
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However, the gods want servants throughout the planes to represent their agendas, as each god believes in the importance of what they specifically represent. They don't need mortals for power whatsoever, but they do want mortals to represent them.
I agree, most D&D default deities are benevolent towards mortals "with streaks of indifference," or uncaring, such as Boccub. I could see deities using worshippers for souls to become petitioners for their own agendas but do the worshippers know that? Do Wee-Jas worshippers know that when they die they become petitioner warriors to battle Grummsh’s orc petitioners on a metal cube in the plane of Acheron, where there is a good chance of being killed for good? And Boccub, who doesn’t care about worshippers - or magic users for Pete’s sake – but only cares about magic, so why do people care about Boccub, when magic is more important than them? And, if mortals can create magic independent of a divine source what is a god needed then? Magic is their prayers, I get it! I just don’t accept it.
This poses an interesting question about Boccub, and I hope you and others can enlighten me. If Boccub was born with divinity, then all magic should be granted by him. Shouldn’t it? Even other deities must answer to Boccub on matters of the arcane if he is an Over-deity of magic, just like Mystra was in F.R...
Wee-Jas respects Boccub but isn’t a goddess of magic? Don’t get it. But…She does respect magic enough to honour magic item creators and spell users even into death. To me, Wee-Jas is more of a God of Magic than Boccub is. Maybe she doesn’t challenge him because he can take magic away from her? If not, I find it easier to dismount Boccub’s pompous behind from the heavens as to me he is just a character written for the authors’ musings; an example of a slothful creature of power he is. With no purpose Boccub is just a stat to me. His avatar for “cripes-poop” is magic user 20/ cleric 20! I understand his avatar is for NPC use because his magic user class should be higher than his cleric class! Only his divinity rank should be high to reflect his status among the deities! Shouldn’t it?
And on the same point, if Boccub was not born divine, or born without magic, then how can he be a god of magic when other deities can cast magic too? Did he work his way up to epic level like a mortal can? But here I am asking about the God of Magic being the proginatator of magic, or not of magic. I really should be asking what is magic first. Because then if it is a symbiotic creature, elemental energies, divine powers, sympathetic nature emotions it may change my mind with Boccub’s existence on my Greyhawk Prime.
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In my mind, arcane magic is related to the natural world via a sympathetic tie, thus the need for related material components for most spells. Divine magic is supernatural and comes from the gods, and for that reason I really don't like the use of many material components for cleric spells unless they are holy/unholy in some way pleasing to the god that the cleric serves.
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I agree on the use of components. If divine comes from a supernatural source, components should be more about prayer, chanting, pentagrams, circles, holy symbols and relics, as these processes call for divine aid. Less is best for clerics. It makes sense for arcane use to be more intricate because a magic user needs to rely on components to invoke power from nothingness, where clerics are granted their spells. I am still perplexed about magic beginnings from nothingness. I have always tied the arcane to the elements because of the four of them together is the catalyst for becoming magic! Is this similar to your natural world view? What if Beory is the proginator of magic and has freed it for to her to use. In this theory, Boccub would be similar to Wee-Jas. The respect and hold magic in high regards dogmas would make them believable with having magic in their portfolios, because since they are divine, they want to attain what they do not have: arcane magic! Then magic users worshipping become believable as the become clerics instead of mages because gods can not grant arcane only divine. Beory and a few allies would then have complete control of magic!?
I agree, most D&D default deities are benevolent towards mortals "with streaks of indifference," or uncaring, such as Boccob.
That is not quite my point, but you're on the right track. That mortals see deities as "benevolent towards mortals 'with streaks of indifference,' or uncaring, such as Boccob." is simply a mortal perception. That is just the mortal attempt to understand why the gods do what they do, or not do. Mortals just like to have answers for everything, and so they make them up based on what is the most sensible or reassuring to them.
As to Boccob and Wee Jas, both are deities of magic. It really is Boccob's sole interest so he is perceived to have a lot of influence over it, even though he doesn't choose to excercse that influence becasue he is indifferent to most things(a mortal explantion once again). Wee Jas is also a goddess of magic, though not subservient to Boccob in any way. With regards to her, magic is just one of three things that she oversees and the other two things she oversees of course have a direct influence on how she views Magic. Indeed, we see this influence in how she interacts with certain beings(undead and dragons namely) and in restrictions on the casting of certain spells(like raise dead and resurrect).
I always find it somewhat amusing when people *have* to know something about the gods when it isn't(and shouldn't be) necessary whatsoever. Each religion or group will give reasons why things are as they are, and that reason will favor their own views/dogma/doctrine. The clergy of Boccob may say that ALL magic flows from Boccob, and that other gods of magic are really making use of what comes from him. The clergy of Wee Jas would scoff at that notion, claiming that while Boccob may be a powerful god of magic, he is not the origin of and controller of all magic. Wee Jas not only has power over magic but of other things, so magic is simply not the sole emphasis she wishes her worshippers to pursue, and that is the only reason why her power over magic may be *perceived* by some to be lesser(and mortal perception is known to be quite flawed).
What is the truth of the matter? Who cares. It is truly irrelevant, and any version of the "truth" will be both right and wrong depending on who is telling it or listening to it. It is unimportant to understand *how* things truly work; it is only important to understand how mortals *think* it works.
Also, I’m not sure where the spelling “Boccub” with a “u” is coming from. The proper spelling is “Boccob”. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Unlike FR, Oerth gods aren't sticking their D!@K in everything and must follow the Pact of Nonintervention. In FR the PC's are little more that motes of dust in a world filled with active gods and Epic characters, not so in GH.
Why is it a bad idea for a spell plague? I am not using the same idea per se, just trying to come up with some sort of magic decision that magic goes awry. The black obelisks of the Flanaess obsorbs Boccubs divine power creating ley lines possibly?
The main difference between GH and FR is FR is a novelist world first and a gaming world second. GH is a setting compiled from 5 different settings that ran semi-independent. The difference is GH is more accomodating to GM's, allowing them to pick it up and tinker as much as they want. GH is less defined by minutae and more defined by Adventure.
Example through association:
GH - Descent to the Depths of the Earth
FR - Drizzt
GH - Vecna Lives!
FR - Elminster
FR is defined by the protagonists in a novel. Far less accomodating than say, a module.
Gravenhurst wrote:
Why is there a Pact of Non-intervention? Why do Gods care, or not care? I have a discussion similar to this very topic on another thread, so I am all keen to hear about this! But Personal Message me on this as I don’t want to wander from the main thread topic. Thanks!
It was a way to maintain the balance of power. In game terms it allows PC's to be at the forfront rather than gods. Such is not the case in FR where PC's are secondary to NPC's. It's sorta like the Southpark episode - Simpsons Did It!; except you can replace Simpsons with Elminster, Bane, or Mystara. If PC's aren't the prime movers then they're just Props on a stage cast by a novelist.
And the Uncaring was a play on Boccob's moniker.
Gravenhurst wrote:
Why do we have Gods if they are independent of mortals for power; thus why have Boccub? The Wee Jas suggestion is a reminder of the possibility of the attainability of becoming a god, but lest we forget, the gods were born with divinity so why or how have they allowed anyone from becoming or attaining divinity when it is their right to divinity and not to mortals?
Gygax loved history so this conundrum is best approached from a historical perspective. The ancient Greeks and Norse didn't worship or revere gods like those of other religions. Tolkien would say the Norse had "hope without guarantees." What he meant was there was no guarantee of a wonderful afterlife to the pagans. They lived every day to the fullest, because of their mortality. They prayed to the gods, not because of any guarantees, but to truly ask for help (like asking a parent for money - you don't always get it). The Greeks and Norse would also fight their gods being the instigators and challengers - hence the PC's.
This approach is quite different because it allows for interpretation:
* PC's can be anti-theists or even atheists
* PC's can emulate gods
* PC's can become gods
* afterlife is not guaranteed (a theme resurfacing in 4e)
By making the gods aloof it allows the PC's to take the reins and face them on their own terms, rather than the other way around.
Gravenhurst wrote:
Vecna, knowing secrets from the Serpent (no one has given any real explanation on this topic - not even by the author - on who the Serpent is), became a god by first becoming an arch-wizard who attained the secret to becoming immortal by becoming a lich. Further secrets were gleaned from Beory - I think - which enabled him along the way of finding the path to becoming a god. I think he was given a divine spark just to keep his mouth shut. I have twirled the idea of Vecna losing his divine status from the deity who imparted the divine spark to him making him an attainable epic challenge again to rid him once and for all!!! Heh! Maybe Iuz could beat him now?
Why not have the PC's defeat Vecna?
Gravenhurst wrote:
Yes, a Midichlorians explanation. Left open for interpretation about the origin of spell use or psionics? I don’t know about the tiny microbe bacteria being the inner voice of magic in FR? Where did you get this, or is it your opinion in the know of the Weave? It sounds more of an explanation for psionics, where I have my own ideas for psionics: it deals with crossing into the Ethereal Planes’ Ghostwalk, or reaching into the Astral Plane of souls for spell use. Great gain in power is grasped at the cost of madness and Cthulu insanity ensues; a simliar path for clerics, who try understanding the meaning of divinity, and wizards, who try understanding on the nature of divinity.
I was referring to the Weave (which sound like ghetto hair to me). In order for Psionics to fit into the Weave they had to "Patch it." (Yes, Ed Greenwood has a patchy weave ;) ). Providing a mechanical explaination for magic is crippling for a campaign setting. I remember playing in a recent FR game and the character I made was and atheist. All of the players said, "Don't do that, you can't be resurrected." Then of course there was, "I can show you where such and such a god did this and that." My character said, "I don't believe you. Show me a god and I'll reconsider. Show me some plot of land and I'll think you're trying to swindle me." The entire campaign was spent with me cursing the gods and both players and DM alike saying, "you'd better not say that or Bane will steal your soul." *shrug*
Having gods as protagonists makes the players insignificant. It's great for novels but terrible for games.
If Boccub was born with divinity, then all magic should be granted by him. Shouldn’t it? Even other deities must answer to Boccub on matters of the arcane if he is an Over-deity of magic, just like Mystra was in F.R...
Not necessarily. Remember the Norse/Greek approach - you can steal power. Prometheus stole the divine fire from Zeus and gave it to humans because that lacked natural weapons. In the creation stories of many religions there was a war or battle where old gods were killed and new gods took over. After Ragnarok there will be new gods as many of the old gods will be dead.
If you take the FR approach then there is no other way to relinquish control over magic without Mystra letting go (or dying). As a campaign setting it's a straight jacket for DM's.
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