Canonfire! Forums-viewtopic-Natural 20s

Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:11 pm Natural 20s

I'm wondering if most people use a house rule for natural 20s and even for natual 1s.

I seem to recall my first D&D group using natural 20 to get double damage and my next group using that and also natural 1 to fumble. Weaponless fighting would be a slip. When I started DMing I thought I'd try applying unused to-hit bonuses to damage on a 20 but it was too complicated. The guy at http://www.philotomy.com/ uses maximum possible damage on a 20.

The "rules" don't mention any special treatment other than a natural 20 always hits and a natural 1 always misses. Anyone play it straight that way?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:30 pm

we played using 1 as a fumble, then you would make a dex chek to not fall, loose weapon and so.

a 18 and 19 COULD be a critical, depending on the diference btw thaco and ac. think this is a 2ed players options thing.
20 was always a critical.

starting in todays game, i declare that only 20 was a critical, and you would double the result on the dice, then add all your modifications, if any

Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:54 am

Raymond! Hail and well met! Happy

Personally, 3.0e and 3.5e seem to have too many "rules" for me. I use the DMG as a guide, not as a source for hard and fast "rules." Wink

Rules are too rigid and don't allow for any leeway on the part of the DM. Hard and fast rules mean that I'm not really playing my WoG, (even though I am the DM) but someone else's WoG. Mad

I think you should play "natural 20's" the way you see it; 1e, 2e, 3e, or 3.5e. You make the call, whatever works for you. Shocked

Just my thoughts. Happy

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Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:01 pm House Rules

I do plan on having what I think is the best rule for me in my games. I'm wondering if there are better house rules out there that other people are using in case I'd like to try it.

I never heard of considering an 18 or 19 a critical hit. And if someone does, then what does he or she mean by critical? Double damage, full damage, double-the-dice damage...?

I think it would be interesting to poll what people do. But since there could be so many variations a vote program wouldn't work.

Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:33 pm Re: House Rules

Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:21 am

the 18 and 19 is from players options (2ed). dont rememeber the exact rule, but its something like if get a 18 or 19, and teh difference between wht you got and what you nedd is 8 or more, then 18 and 19 could cont as dice damage x2.

like, lets say i need a 8 to hit a skelleton and i got a 18, since the diference is more then 8 (its 10), my 18 count as a 20, for critical hits purpose.

but this goes only from 18 up, so a 17 wouldnt be a critical.

i remember that in the same chapter there was tables for location and consequences of critical hits, like a giant hittin a halfling with a blunt weapon.
roll some dices for location (could get arm, leg, torso, etc) then effect (left leg broken, head injury, and so on)

Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:27 pm

I’ve done a couple of different systems.

I like the idea of critical hits and critical fumble tables (If your get a natural 1 or 20 you roll again and to see what happens from a table - look around a bit on the web I’m sure there are several versions of such tables out there). Although a lot of the time I just ignored the tables and decided what sounded like it would be cool or humorous at the moment.

I’ve also done a system were a 20 gave max damage and a reroll. If the reroll hit again they character did normal damage in addition to the max damage. If the reroll was another 20 then the process repeats... although we only had 2x max damage + damage twice during the campaign. On the other side a natural 1 triggered save to avoid doing damage to yourself.

We also did a system were rolling a natural 20 let you go again for free and rolling a natural 1 lost you your next turn. (representing the quickness of a perfectly placed blow verses needing to get back on balance for a near fumble).

Another system we used, at least for when the characters got hit with a natural 20 was that was that damage had secondary effects (reduced movement/speed, loss of a couple of attribute points, vision, use of a limb, etc) until the damage was fully healed and that it left a permanent scar.

Its interesting tinkering with different ideas, but I think the main thing was to find out what you and your players enjoy but that doesn’t really bog down your game.

Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:10 am

We had two systems, a highly detailed one and a quick and easy one. Which would be used was determined at campaign inception by a quorum of the players. Surprisingly, most of the groups over the years have chosen the more detailed of the two. Shocked

Of course, whichever system the players chose could, and would, be used against them in play. After all, monsters make crit hits too...even Kobolds Cool

The quick and easy was on a 20 you had a potential critical hit. An additional to hit roll was made and if it was a regular hit, you got a critical on the target resulting in double damage. In the same system, with a 1 you fumbled and the specifics of what happened were determined by the DM depending on circumstances (i.e. drop weapon, chance to break weapon, etc.).

The more detailed, involved several tables to be rolled on. The basic determination of a critical hit mirrored the quick version before moving into the tables for damage. Damage was rolled as if it had been a regular hit. The tables included one for each of the three weapon types (bludgeon, slash, pierce) recognizing the difference in wound types, with a single Major critical table that you could arrive at with an extremely poor roll on any of the three main tables. There were also tables for crits to the head/upper torso and legs/lower torso for instances where cover or height above ground came into play. Each critical provided an in-game adjustment such as shoulder damage: can’t use arm for 1d8 days roll for which arm. Some hits required a minimum amount of damage done before the effect could take place

The fumble tables were similar, except there was the main table and a table each for bows/xbows and hand thrown weapons. Similar in-game adjustments could come up. Sad

The DM then takes the rolls and describes how the incident occurred. He can request a re-roll if something doesn’t make any sense as well. Despite how it sounds, it actually only slows the game appreciably for the first session or two. Once everyone is familiar with the system, it has a very minimal effect on game time. Unless, of course, someone rolls a critical every time they hit…. Confused

Just our system...

Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:43 am

I use max damage on natural 20s. Double damage can sometimes not feel very rewarding when the damage dice rolled results in a 1.
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Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:09 pm By not very rewarding...

By "not very rewarding," I think you mean all the other players get to point and laugh!

Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:34 am

I just use natural 20's as auto hits. I haven't used crits or fumbles for about three years now. Though the max damage on a nat 20 does seem tempting.
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Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:51 pm

You might simply say that if you already would need a 20 or higher to hit a target then a 20 "only" automatically hits, but that if you are skilled enough that you need less than a 20 to hit a target and do roll a natural 20, then you do maximum damage. It is only a slight bonus then(as you could roll maximum damage on a hit to begin with), but it is a bonus. I'm all for little things like this that people get some enjoyment out of.

Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:58 am

I've never used a critical hit system or fumble system, for the simple reason that my players are much better rollers than I am! I have one player in particular who has what we call an "aura of improbability" that appears to affect dice rolls (and we play with my dice, so that's not a factor).

I had a Fantasy Wargaming campaign for a while. Under those rules any hit makes a roll for hit location and damage is quite variable, but that is aimed at a much more realistic combat system. I have always felt that D&D combat is more cinematic than realistic and have been satisfied with the standard rules.

A couple of rules have become more prominent as the PC's have gone beyond name level:

The "first 20" in an attack table is a modified 20. The next five are 20N, or natural 20 only. Thus the advantage of a natural 20 is it allows you to hit in the 20N category. Beyond that it is 21, 22, etc. Meaning natural 20 and at least a +1 overall mod. That hasn't come up for PC's attacking monsters yet, but there has been one combat in which one of the PC's was unhittable from the front by skeletons - they needed a 21 or so.

A natural 1 is always a miss, but if you can hit on a negative you get bonus damage. For example, if you could hit with a -3, you would still miss with a 1 but any other number would give you +3 damage. That has come up a few times.

As a house rule, I have begun allowing the PC ranger to make "called-shot" critical hits when attacking with bow against humanoids. This is to have a missile equivalent of the melee "giant class" damage bonus rangers get. If she voluntarily accepts a to-hit penalty and still hits, she gets a damage bonus.

Kirt

Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:10 pm

I have not had a chance to put this into practice yet, but a critical fumble result which I recently decided upon is as follows:

On a natural 1, the attacker has the following occur until the end of the next round as he attempts to regain his balance/grip:
a) He receives a -4 to attack rolls
b) He automatically loses initiative

This keeps a critical fumble from being a definite death sentence but still has dire consequences if the battle is close. I like using these two results, although the attack roll penalty may be something that changes, perhaps to only -2.
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Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:32 pm

We had the rule of a natural twenty was double damage, roll a twenty again for quadruple damage, three twenties in a row, automatic (if possible) slay.

And one was a fumble with a dex or less to recover or loose a turn. If you get another one, you drop your weapon.

Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:58 pm

Previously I used to use the old "Good Hits and Bad Misses" crit/fum tables from Dragon #38. Then one of my players gave me a set of the Paizo crit cards. I kinda like um, but the players LOVE them. Even when I'm use them on the players. I guess it's a prop thing, but they like um so well we got the fumble cards too. Oh, and we do not use the magic crits at all. They are a bit, well....stupid to the point of serious brain damage.

Mon May 04, 2009 3:34 am Re: Natural 20s

Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:14 pm

In 3.5 i was always a fan of 20 = +10; 1 = -10. Gives characters chances for awesome rolls at early levels but eventually the Pcs would catch up with it getting to the point where they can never fail.

Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:22 pm

I'm a fan of the 3.5e rules on most things, but not this one - there are too many options available for increasing the chances of a critical hit. Therefore:

IMC I rule that a natural 20 (and only a natural 20) causes double maximum damage plus all modifiers. It provides a good reward for the player who rolled the die, doesn't happen that often, and doesn't unduly unbalance combat. I don't bother with fumbles anymore, since I've never found a system of resolving them that I liked. I know lots of people who are fond of Paizo's Critical Fumble and Critical Hit decks, but I don't care for them personally.

Beyond just the die rolls, though, I do reward clever tactics in combat. If the players can come up with a creative way of winning a combat that doesn't involve shooting an enemy or walking up and whacking him, or if they come up with a way of whacking the enemy that would reasonable increase the amount of damage dealt, I tend to be rather generous with damage modifiers and multipliers. I prefer that the best rewards be handed out for good play rather than random die rolls.

Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:25 pm

Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:04 am Re: Natural 20s

Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:57 pm

Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:02 pm

Always stick with works for you and your gaming group. Good going, Drohem. Let us know how your game progresses! Cool

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