If one purpose of the Greyhawk setting is to provide a home base where characters can haul their loot back and count up the XP and get more spells as apprentices in the magic schools there (as indicated in Grehawk Adventures), what about the spell books? Does anyone bother to think about how spells get added to a spell book? When my players attain a new level and pick a spell from the Player's Handbook are people assuming there is a library from which characters can copy spells? Who copies them? I've always limited the spells they can cast by the ones they've picked to have in their spell book as if somehow they are doled out. If there is a library and characters can check out any spell, that would unbalance the game from the way I've played it.
Here's the thing I'm thinking about: Why aren't there more PCs and NPCs going around slaughtering magic-users for their spell books to get the spells they don't already have in their own spell books? It seems if I was a magic-user player today, I'd be getting my team to help me collect as many spells as possible.
My 1E - 2E crew always played that the progression by level of spells available is a maximum, a ceiling that a particular player could attain. Getting the actual spells was a matter of finding them in others' (usually dead bad guys') books. We've that way for so long, that it never occurred to me there might be another way.
The only exception to this were those instances (rare in our group) of specialty wizards. For example, I seem to remember that a necromancer got an additional spell from the necro school per level. We deemed this to be that he figured it out all on his own, as a matter of research. Bear in mind this was 2E; I'm led to believe that a myriad of possibilities exists in 3-3.5, but I don't play it, so I don't know.
As for hunting wizards down for their spell books, absolutely there is. Heck, it's expected - that's the trade off for watching your friends get all those shiny glowing swords and armor. Wands/staves/rods are great, but a big fat spell book to steal - that's the prime rib of booty to take from a dead bad guy. In some of the old modules, it's almost always part of the final treasure haul... assuming you kill the main bad guy, of course. _________________ The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed, in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a wide-spread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible. - Bertrand Russell
I'm still "catching-up" on all the "new" that's been going around WoG, but, when I was actively playing, oh, about a thousand years ago, it kind of went like this . . .
After a particular adventure, the adventures would return to their "home base," usually Greyhawk. (Its the Gem of the Flanaess you know )
The young mage could return to his/her teacher and tell him/her of his/her adventures (The teacher was always interested in gaining knowledge) and he/she could count on a spell; maybe two, if his/her information was real good. Of course, sometimes his/her old teacher was simply fond of him/her (the surrogate father/mother thing) and would let him/her have one spell for that.
BUT! There's one drawback! The DM gets to choose the spell the young mage would gain. (The DM is, after all, the teacher! )
In addition, for a fee, the young mage could spend time at the Academy of Magic researching a new spell, or two, in the School's Library. This, of course, cost money -- or maybe a magical item in trade -- and its the main thing a young mage spends money on, other than magical items themselves. Of course, this requires the players to spend a couple -- or a few -- days in Greyhawk. The DM would determine how long the research might take.
The young mage would choose a spell to learn after the DM informed him/her what spells he/she would now be capable of learning.
I’m very specific with spell books in my campaign.
My 1E method:
When a character levels and trains the character gets one spell that does not have to be copied from another source. Part of training includes the spell research.
If the character has a mentor, or is a member of a guild, college, etc. he may also be able to copy spells from that source, usually for a fee. There’s also spells copies from captured books or scrolls. Spell research is also an option.
With my guys they usually hang on to scrolls they find or whenever they hit a big city they take time to visit the library. In 3E it says you research a new spell on level up, so to me it is assumed that they have knowledge of the spell ahead of time they just cannot cast it until later.
My groups and I use dice rolls to determine starting spells in the book with a couple of mandatory ones included automatically. We use the chance to learn spell and max # of spells religiously as part of that process. Training for the next level allows one spell to be added to the book. All additional spells are either paid for, researched or won in battle.
Additionally, we use rolls to determine the # of pages a spell takes up in the book, thus putting an additional limit on available spells. Once one is full they have to purchase or make another. We do use the spellbook rules governing the sizes of travelling spellbooks and regular spellbooks.
Not knowing what rule system the original poster is using presents a slight problem with regards to giving advice.
For 3.0e/3.5e it is assumed that when an arcane caster gains new spells they have acquired them through continuous study. For example, a 4th level wizard has been studying the properties of evocation as it has to do with fire in his off time, such that when he gains enough experience to become 5th level he may choose fireball as one of the spells he gains. The player need not state what the character is studying beforehand leading up to what spells the character will choose upon gaining a new spell level though(unless the dm says otherwise of course). Now, that just covers the minimum spells the character will gain. Others are of course gained through studying scrolls or spellbooks that have been acquired.
Things are more regimented in 1e/2e, where characers must seek out training, and can only get spells through training or by studying scrolls or spellbooks they have acquired.
The reason characters don't go around slaughtering mages for their spell books is that, usually, characters are not usually evil. That is sort of a requirement for murdering somebody just for thier posssessins. Besides, if this were to become a common thing, there's these little things called wizards' guilds who would frown on that, and probably send a dozen powerful wizards to obliterate anyone foolish enough to take up the pasttime of slaughtering wizards for their spellbooks. That of course would be an object lesson for anybody else wanting to get any bright ideas. And of course there are the local authorities that probably frown on murder as well. If you don't get taosted by the mages guild, the local constable will have you swinging from the end of a rope.
For 3.0e/3.5e it is assumed that when an arcane caster gains new spells they have acquired them through continuous study. For example, a 4th level wizard has been studying the properties of evocation as it has to do with fire in his off time, such that when he gains enough experience to become 5th level he may choose fireball as one of the spells he gains. The player need not state what the character is studying beforehand . . . Things are more regimented in 1e/2e, where characers must seek out training, and can only get spells through training or by studying scrolls or spellbooks they have acquired.
Cebrion! Hail and well met!
As I've stated elsewhere in these forums, I'm quite unfamiliar with the 3.0e and 3.5e systems. But I've also stated that I do not necessarily approve of some of the changes that have been made since "my time."
I would ask; Where did your Mage get his copy of "Evocation 101?" Does he also possess a copy of "Conjuration 101?" "Abjuration 101?" How many books does your Mage carry?
Greyhawk doesn't have the internet. I give you a hyperbole (no internet now );
If you don't go down to your local college's bookstore and purchase a copy of Physics 101, or English Literature 101, then how did you learn these things? You might get by without the Professor (I feel I could, to some extent) but not without the book.
Your Mage has been "studying" while "adventuring." Where did he get the book? Where has he been keeping it? What about the other books? Is there no weight problem? What's his strength?
This is why I prefer my "return to base" method, based upon -- as it apparently is -- the 1e/2e system. (I'm not saying anyone else's method is wrong! You are the DM!) But, for me, its just not feasible for my Mage to carry all of that, which I feel is a necessary component for giving the illusion of "reality" to my game.
3e is fairly straight forward, a wizard gains two spells at each level advancement due to continuous study and research. He may also supplement from other caster's spellbooks, scrolls and even the creation of new spells.
In 1e, my wizard could reserarch spells either in the PHB or of his own creation (I came up with some good ones, including one I stole from the Elric books to propel a ship; something similar was introduced in the 3e Stormwrack book). This process, however, was not automatic; the DMG had rules pertaining to monetary cost, time and success chance. He could also scribe spells into his spellbook from enemy casters, scrolls, and even some select spells from wizard guilds, although this last way always has a high cost associated which as any wizard would agree, any cost to obtain a new spell is worthwhile.
In 1e a wizard guild could be a great resource for a wizard; Other services that the guild provided was laboratories for potion creation, as well as a place to purchase spell components (or sell potion components if one came across any while adventuring). I urge DMs to have some kind of active wizard guild in any edition of play. It can be a great springboard to a number of primary or secondary (subplot) adventures. _________________ Count Telemachus, Archmage of the Unicorn Conferderation
3e is fairly straight forward, a wizard gains two spells at each level advancement due to continuous study and research. He may also supplement from other caster's spellbooks, scrolls and even the creation of new spells.
In 1e a wizard guild could be a great resource for a wizard; Other services that the guild provided was laboratories for potion creation, as well as a place to purchase spell components (or sell potion components if one came across any while adventuring).
Telemachus! Hail and well met!
How's your father, Odysseus, by the way? Haven't seen him since we got separated during that Scylla incident! (Just having fun! )
But seriously now . . .
Your comment on 3e only reiterates my original complaint. Your Mage 'continually studies' . . . what? Mordenkainen's Theory of Relativity? Otilukes' Dynamics of a Star? What? And where/how does he/she carry all of that around with him/her?
All the comments I've read on 3e suggests that we are assuming that this Mage is continually studying. (Apparently, only the DM actually sees him/her do it) But everyone is ignoring the fact that, to do that, we must assume that said Mage is carrying 100 pounds of books, if not more! Where does he keep them?
So this scenario doesn't work for me. And, to be honest, DM's who do use that method are not doing a very good job of "defending" their position/reason for doing so. (The book says I can! That's a defense? )
Each DM will do as they please, and should do so!
But for me to use a method, there has to be some kind of logic holding it all together. The 3e method has no realistic "feel" for me.
If you don't go down to your local college's bookstore and purchase a copy of Physics 101, or English Literature 101, then how did you learn these things? You might get by without the Professor (I feel I could, to some extent) but not without the book.
I went to college and only bought books that pertained directly to my degree. I still got As in the classes that I didn't.
But... I do agree about the studying during down-time. No freebie spells from me.
All the comments I've read on 3e suggests that we are assuming that this Mage is continually studying. (Apparently, only the DM actually sees him/her do it) But everyone is ignoring the fact that, to do that, we must assume that said Mage is carrying 100 pounds of books, if not more! Where does he keep them?
And yet, remarkably, before the invention of the printing press, literally thousands of authors, philosophers, scholars, bards, and priests got by without hundreds of pounds, or even a hundred pounds, of books. Fancy that! Many were even illiterate!
Not every DM is hamstrung by a single rigid interpretation of arcane research and theory. Some (heretics!) even believe that, given a basic grounding in the theory and practice of arcane magic (ie, apprenticeship), a dedicated student can develop more sophisticated spells through simple experimentation and conceptual theory!
Actually, I wrote that, not Telemachus. He was quoting me. You need to direct your ire at me.
Ever hear of Papyrus? Clay tablets? Vellum? In fact, the DMG of my time suggested using such articles for "older writings." In fact, mankind's written history goes back 5000 years! Look it up. Yep! Not "oral tradition," written history.
Authors didn't have books? I thought they wrote books? Did they have paper?
Its true, of course, the Catholic Church, of the Middle Ages, did not think it necessary for their Clergy to be able to read. Can't say I concur.
Seems people are taking the meaning of the word "studying" a bit too literally, as in having to go learn from a book.
In 3.0/3.5, as in all editions really, when a wizard completes their apprenticeship they have a rudimentary knowledge regarding ALL types of magic. Now, left to their own devices, such wizards will continue to tinker with what they know such that they will eventually discover how to do things- even things that others have already figured out how to do(like cast a fireball).
"Ah! I've been practicing this type of magic for long enough such that I finally made the connection as to how to produce this effect!"
And so the wizard gains two new spells per level. This method simply assumes that in their spare time, the wizard is continually thinking about how to apply the principles of magic that they already know in new and/or different ways.
This is more of a "learn by doing" thing, and all of the classes are assumed to operate this way in 3.0e/3.5e unless the DM decides otherwise.
Most old school DMs are set in their ways and simply choose to decide otherwise(myself included).
To clarify, I was thinking of both B/E/C/M and 1e AD&D rules.
When the late 80's "Elmore" Basic box came out, the rules said that first level magic users only got Read Magic. While logical, I thought it stunk that I wouldn't get to choose. As a player used to the first red box rules, I would always want to guarantee that my M-U character could do something so I would usually pick Magic Missle. That revision of the Basic rules also assume that most characters would pick Threshold as a base and have some sort of mentor if I'm not mistaken. If I follow their logic correctly, Threshold is a pretty low-level place so for higher-level stuff characters would probably have to relocate to Specularum or maybe an elf area.
Now that I'm collecting Greyhawk 1st edition stuff I was wondering if there was a suggested method. My old AD&D DM said he assumed in his campaign that spell books were magical and when your character could get the next spell, it would magically appear. That stream lines the game which is good, but I'm thinking that I'd like something more logical to me if I get a chance to DM AD&D. The DRAGONLANCE Adventures book is explicit for Krynn but that of course doesn't apply to Greyhawk. The Greyhawk Adventures book seems to imply certain assumpitons.
As you can see, I'm limiting my collecting to first edition. ...And because I too have been seeing those Greyhawk references in the 1st edition manuals all these years, I am wondering if I can get my hands on any version of Gygax' version of the Castle. So yes, I'm waiting for the Castle Zagyg: The Dungeons even though the author is dead. Those references shouldn't really have been in campaign neutral rule books but not only did it make reading the books interesting (like a friend of yours was writing them for you) but I think it's been a great marketing device for Greyhawk material that later editions probably didn't have and I speculate it's one reason why Greyhawk wasn't as popular later on.
Seems people are taking the meaning of the word "studying" a bit too literally, as in having to go learn from a book.
In 3.0/3.5, as in all editions really, when a wizard completes their apprenticeship they have a rudimentary knowledge regarding ALL types of magic. Now, left to their own devices, such wizards will continue to tinker with what they know such that they will eventually discover how to do things- even things that others have already figured out how to do(like cast a fireball).
This is more of a "learn by doing" thing, and all of the classes are assumed to operate this way in 3.0e/3.5e unless the DM decides otherwise.
Most old school DMs are set in their ways and simply choose to decide otherwise(myself included).
My apologies if I seem to come across as "dogmatic," that really isn't my intention.
My brain is still locked on 1e. Seems I'll have to devote myself to more "study."
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Of course, sometimes his/her old teacher was simply fond of him/her (the surrogate father/mother thing) and would let him/her have one spell for that. 
There's one 
(The DM 
)
But I've also stated that I do not necessarily approve of some of the changes that have been made since "my time." 
