So if the former ruler of the Shield Lands was an earl, and the current ruler is a countess, and the Shield Lands are composed of 23 fiefs ruled by lesser nobles, of what rank are these nobles? Barons, baronets, knights? I've just been asigning the rank of baron to those rulers of formerly large holdings, such as Axeport and and Stahzer, and baronet to those of lesser holdings, such as Ringland or Reyneld, but it seems like a lot of 'em. Should there be that many barons around, or should the fief-holders be just knights of holy shielding?
There is not really a comprehensive list of Shield Lander nobles, nor even a list of how many holdings there are within the Shield Lands currently. I assume that it is 3, those being Admundfort Isle(the Earldom of Walworth), Critwall & surrounds(barony), and Scragholme isle(lordship). Also, "countess" is the female equivalent of "earl", so they are the same rank and that hasn't changed.
The Shield Lands was originally composed of 23 petty domains, with only three being free at this time(Critwall and surrounding area, Scragholme Isle, and the island of Admundfort). Of these ancestral lands I have 12 as having been ruled by barons(Critwall and its surrounds being one of these, so 11 remain in the hands of enemy forces) and the rest by lords(one of which is Scragholme isle). All of the rulers are by necessity Knights of Holy Shielding, though that just means that they are members of the order and not necessarily knights in the classical sense(warrior types with armor, lance, etc.). The majority are indeed warrior types(fighter/ranger/paladin), with 7 having been clerics and two having been wizards. I would probably make one of the current two other than Katarina a cleric of warlike mien. Even if the Shield Lands was fully retaken I doubt the 23 original domains would remain intact, likely being sucked up into other domains as many families, noble, wealthy, or otherwise, were simply wiped out during the Greyhawk Wars. The Shield Lands certainly paid for its stubbornness and pride. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:49 am; edited 1 time in total
I understood lord to be a form of address rather than a noble rank. I know that there are some lords of the City of Greyhawk (Lord Robilar, Lord Silverfox, Lord Wainwright, etc.) from noble titles granted by the Landgraf, but I was never clear on what their actual ranking in the noble hierarchy was. A landgraf was equivalent to a count, but was not subservient to any intermediate power, reporting directly to the emporer. So, the lords could be viscounts, barons, baronets, or lower. Do you think that the Shield Land lords are equivalent to the standard knights in rank?
I guess that would imply that Prince Zeech was actually Baron Zeech, before he swapped allegiences from the Shield Lands to the Bandit Kingdoms. Redhand would have been a major holding I think.
"Torkeep lies north of the city of Critwall in the northeastern marches of the Shield Lands. Your stronghold, Torkeep, is on the bluffs which overlook the Ritensa River near the only ford within many leagues. It is a very active place, with raids and skirmishes going on continually."
This description is of course of a Torkeep long before the Greyhawk Wars, but it sounds like a fun little place to base a portion of a campaign around retaking. A it looks like the Shield Lands Living Greyhawk site is down, I don't know what they did with regards to detailing anything in the Shield Lands. It's really too bad that so many of the external Living Greyhawk sites have gone down, as the material they presented could at the very least have given people ideas to make use of or build from.
As to the title "Lord", it can refer to a powerful person of influence(a merchant lord for example) or landed knight below the rank of Baron, but that has troops serving under them and overall represents the interests of(i.e. owes fealty to) a greater power, in this case the Countess of Warlworth. It is of course also a general title for nobility of various ranks, and often used by commoners when adressing their betters(even if they are not actual lords). Peasants usually err on the side of caution when addressing people who look important to them. The title "lord" would be slightly above that of knight, as it implies a landed noble, whereas a knight is not guaranteed to be landed but surely owes fealty to somebody. A landed knight, therefor being a high ranking knight, would be accorded the same level of respect as a minor landed lord, or maybe even bear the title of lord as well depending on the importance of the land that they oversee.
In the excerpt above, the lands of Torkeep have been enobled as a barony, but it probably grew out of a lordship(previous to the mid-300's CY when the Shield Lands was founded) based around the fortified bastion of Torkeep. In effect, Lord Torkeep, being from a very important area with regards to defending the south from the raids of the Free Lords in the north, could have been made Baron Torkeep when he pledged himself to the cause of the Shield Lands as a founding member of the nation. It could also be that the ruler of this frontier area was enobled prior to the succession of the western states from the Great Kingdom. I don't recall there being any information on this, so it is up to you decide which is the case. I could have gone into all of this in more detail in my Knights of Holy Shielding article, but I wanted the article to center more around the order rather than become a Shield Lands Gazetteer. It is certainly a topic worth revisiting and fleshing out(with maps even!!!). One more project to add to the list... _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Do you think that the Shield Land lords are equivalent to the standard knights in rank?
In my precedence system I say that "Lords" as Ceb is using them are ranked as Knights Banneret. This isn't necessarily in-line with real world usage mind you. Gygax included Knight Commander, Knight Banneret, Knight Companion, Knight Bachelor, and Knight in the ranks given in the WoGG.
it looks like the Shield Lands Living Greyhawk site is down, I don't know what they did with regards to detailing anything in the Shield Lands. It's really too bad that so many of the external Living Greyhawk sites have gone down, as the material they presented could at the very least have given people ideas to make use of or build from.
Here are a few pages that the Wayback Machine was able to find...
The shield Lands were orignally a collection of southern minor nobles that formed to defend their holdings from northern robber nobles (ie: Bandit Kingdoms).
While the lords of the Bandit Kingdoms embraced the chaos of the crumbling GK and chose grandoise titles to increase their personal stature.
I feel the southern lords behaved more prudently; remember Furyondy is on its border and the newly crowned King in Dyvers would not approve of several shield land nobles declaring themselves kings. Earl was the most grandoise title claimed; Baronies are known, it could be the rest of the landed noble setates were baronies. However over titles are possible but I would keep them rather humble; no king of whatever. Leave that to the northern bandits.
Do you think that the Shield Land lords are equivalent to the standard knights in rank?
In my precedence system I say that "Lords" as Ceb is using them are ranked as Knights Banneret. This isn't necessarily in-line with real world usage mind you. Gygax included Knight Commander, Knight Banneret, Knight Companion, Knight Bachelor, and Knight in the ranks given in the WoGG.
That is fine too. The most important aspect of being a lord is actually having a domain, however small, which one oversees. A lowly knight could surely be lord over some small backwater village: Sir Branson, Lord of Muckhole, Loyal Servant to the Crown of Fuyryondy(Muckhole being 25 square miles of mostly stinking marshland somwhere along the banks of the Velverdyva; areas of note: the Muckmarsh, and the village of Muckhole). Yes, your character too could enobled "Lord Muchkhole"! Not exactly the most lofty and ringing of titles, but you get the idea.
And no, I couldn't have possibly chosen those names because they could be rhymed with anything. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
A few thoughts on the area.
The Shield Lands is not a place that follows the normal rules; it is not a kingdom. It is a collection of independent petty noble territories that have a combined military force. The Earl, or Countess, acts as the commander of the military force, but otherwise I don’t feel he/she holds much authority.
Petty nobility is not nobility; a petty noble is a non-noble who assumes a leadership role.
You could probably assume that the Earldom of Walworth was created by an Aerdi monarch of the past, but is now palatine, which would equate to marquees status on an international level. Petty nobility can become actual nobility, but the ‘noble’ in question would have to play by the rules. I don’t think there’s much of a chance that any actual monarch would recognize any of the leaders, other than the Earl/Countess, as anything higher than a baron. Anyone that styled himself otherwise would probably not achieve any kind of legitimacy.
A knight is not a member of the nobility. The same goes for baronets. Generally, they maintain their lands within the territory of an actual noble.
A standard knight is not a hereditary title. A baronet is a hereditary knighthood.
That is much of the reason why I only consider about half of the territories in the former Shield Lands to have been baronies. Lords are usually landed knights at the very least, though not always. These are very minor "nobles", most all of whome would be from humble origins. If/when the Shield Lands is retaken bit by bit that could change as each territory reclaimed could be made a barony to begin with.
I never viewed the Shield Lands as lacking unity though. They are and were very unified through their strongly religious national military tradition. That was and is a large part of their national pride. A fractured organization is not why the Shield Lands fell. They were simply worn down and overwhelmed by superior forces, mainly as they wouldn't let anybody help them due to pride an paranoia on their part. Outside of military operations, each lord or baron is likely very independent, so yes, the Walworths were probably not lording it over anybody to any great degree. The Shield Lands is surely ripe for some attention, and in its current state is a great place for adventuring. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Around CY 250, Stinvri, Viceroy of the Ferrond, declared his independence and wrested control of the Marklands from the Great Kingdom. In CY 256 he passed control of the region to his son, crowned as King Thrommel I (1). At the time, the survival of the independent state seemed unlikely. Removed from the Aerdian Empire by fiat, the local lords vied for power and fought over resources and borders. The Raoin Church and her allied nobles pressed for the independence of the Voll. The easternmost lands (the Lands of the Shield) were largely controlled by the remnants of Aerdian Army Commanders and military veterans who had been granted small fiefs as pensions. Their loyalty to the new state was uncertain, and they could easily have rejoined the Great Kingdom. More than a century of nomad raids had reduced the northern lands (or Northern Reaches) to a ragtag collection of petty holdings run by warlords. They considered the change in government as merely the replacement of one distant figurehead for another, with little effect on their daily struggle for existence. The Viceroyalty had laid claim to the entire Vesve, but in truth the Aerdi had never mapped its full extent. The Lord of the Elves had acknowledged the suzerainty of the Viceroy, but had paid little tribute.
King Thrommel was practical enough to know that he had to free the outer dependencies to leave himself the core of a viable kingdom. In truth he was no imperialist, and actually believed in freedom and self-determination for each of these disparate peoples. But Thrommel was also wise enough to realize that if they were granted their freedom too quickly, the dependencies would fall. Unless they had strong and cohesive governments themselves, they would easily be overcome by nomad, Baklunish, or humanoid invasions, or else reabsorbed into the seething Aerdy Empire. Thrommel spent his reign resolving local disputes and consolidating regional governments, preparing them for the transition to independence.
...
Independence in the east, where Thrommel was less sure of loyalty, took longer. Since his family had long been allied with the Heironeoun church, Thrommel gave generously to priests working in the east. His goal was to create enough faithful lords in the region that he could safely trust the lands with their independence. The lords east of the Ritensa slowly came under the sway of the Great Axe. The faith became common among the heretofore faithless, and even found converts among those who had followed Hextor and Pholtus. One of the last acts of Thrommel’s reign was to quit his claim to the Lands of the Shield.
...
The King of Furyondy created two Branches of the Order, one for Furyondy and one among the Highfolk. At the same time, he advised the Archcleric on the creation of a third Branch to specifically serve Veluna. Verboblonc was too small and lacked the resources to host its own Branch; its worthy heroes were asked to join either the Furyondian or Velunese Branch. The Shield Lands, ever the most independent of the large states, refused both the King’s offer to organize their own Branch or to have their heroes accepted into the Furyondy Branch. Instead, they founded their own Order of Knighthood, that of the Knights of the Shield (also known as the Knights of Holy Shielding) (8).
The Knights of the Shield were overtly a religious order (8), dedicated to Heironeous. In a sense, they were the fruition of Thrommel I’s plans for the region, although they fiercely maintained their independence from Furyondy. The Velunese Branch of the Knights of the Hart was a religious order as well, although dedicated to Rao and the authority, both spiritual and temporal, of the Archcleric. In contrast, the Furyondy Branch was secular. Although most members were followers of Heironeous (as was the King), such a faith was not required for membership. Instead, the entrance requirement was simply a great personal loyalty to the King and the nation. Lastly, the High Forest Branch was neither religious nor broadly secular. Originally, it did not purport to defend the elven lands the way the other Branches served their respective nations. Rather, the High Forest Branch was seen as an adjunct to the Furyondy Branch. Its members were a handful of elves more loyal than most to the King of Furyondy.
When the fall of Iggwilv freed the Furyondi army and Knights, everyone knew that something would have to be done about Iuz. Tales of the horrible fates suffered by lord and vassale alike in the half-civilized barons on the northern shores of the Whyestil were common knowledge. But still, King Avras III (23) hesitated. A war against Iuz, now great in power, would deplete the army, impoverish the treasury, and yield little in land or booty for the participants. The northern lords pressed for immediate action, but to succeed the King would need the troops of the southern lords as well. They were loathe to have their men so far from the frontiers of Ket and Keoland, and attempted to wring concessions from the King (28). The war would likely extend beyond the period the King could demand free service from the nobles, and he had little to offer them. The line of selfless Furyondian monarchs had slowly lost lands relative to the nobles. The occupation and defense of Bissel had for the last half-century been a steady drain on the royal treasury (while enriching the noble rulers). King Avras’ attempts to increase taxes to pay for a campaign against Iuz were completely ineffective, aside from earning him the unjust moniker of “King Avarice”.
The King preferred another stratagem. Veluna and Verbobonc had long aided his realm, and continued to send troops and Knights to assist in the defense of Bissel. Even the independent elves provided indispensable aid with their Knights of the Hart. But the Shield Lands had been noticeably lacking in its contributions to Furyondian war efforts, both in the Short War and the more recent trouble with Iggwilv. Avras’ requests for assistance against Iuz were politely declined as well (31). Avras decided that the Shield Landers had proven their lack of common cause with the rest of the Marklands and that the time had come to forcefully remind them of their duties to the greater good of all. In short, Avras announced his intention to annex the Shield Lands. He claimed that as Thrommel I had granted the lands their independence, it was within his own power as the monarch of Furyondy rescind that grant (32). By making the Shield Lands a royal domain, Avras would have access to enough troops to conquer Iuz without having to rely on the southern lords.
The only problem with Avras’ plan was that it needed the support of all his nobles. Avras sought to assemble an army of overwhelming force so that the Shield Lands would quickly surrender (after a token battle to satisfy the honor of the Knights of Holy Shielding, of course). He wanted to capture the Shield Lands intact, not punish or destroy it. And while the southern lords were perfectly willing to participate (in return for booty from the rich land), the northern lords were not. Their insistence on the threat of Iuz stymied Avras’ plans of assembling an army of overwhelming force.
Thus Avras’ plans languished for years while he tried to build a coalition. The southern lords were for the invasion of the Shield Lands but not Iuz, the northern lords the reverse. Fearful of losing the struggle, the northern lords looked for an ally. They found it in the Furyondian Knights of the Hart.
The Furyondian Knights for the last century had slowly slipped from the direct control of the throne. As the power of the Kings of Furyondy waned in the 5th century CY, the Furyondy Hart had increasingly come under the direction of the Heironeoun church (33). By mid-century they were already recruiting their own members, with the ceremonial knighting by the King having become a rubber-stamping formality. The Knights recognized the threat of Iuz. Their Heironeoun leaders were far more eager to fight the demon of the north than to conquer their church brethren in the Shield Lands. The northern lords found common purpose with the knights. They donated funds for castles and chapter houses. They and their subject knights sought membership and promotion in the Order. Within a few years the northern lords had infiltrated the Order well. They did not control it, but they could be sure of its support of their position, even against the King (33).
The elven Knights watched these machinations carefully and unhappily. They saw the infiltration of the Furyondy Hart and warned their King to no avail. They were disappointed in what they saw as the malleable loyalty of the humans (particularly the elves who had been original members of the Order). But they were also disappointed in the ineffectiveness and scheming of their King. They counseled against any occupation of the Shield Lands and themselves favored immediate action against Iuz. After the fall of Iggwilv, they were increasingly occupied with defending the Vesve against humanoid encroachment. The King listened, but did not act. He was able to convince neither one side nor the other of his nobles to join him.
The struggle was finally made moot in CY 505 when a band of heroes, wizards, and (some say) deities surprised Iuz and bearded him in his own thrown room (34). With the twin evils of Witch Queen and Demon Lord fallen, most in the Marklands breathed a sigh of relief and turned to complacency. The Elven Hart, on the other hand, merely ceased its visible activities. From this point on it became engaged in a series of clandestine operations that surpassed even those of the original and secret Hart. But that tale is for the next article in this series. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
It is my understanding that, in England, a Baron was not necessarily tied to a location, but rather, held different fiefs all across the nation. Thus, you would not have the Baron of Axeport. Rather, it would be Baron Jebadebadu, who holds lordship over Axeport and a dozen other villages spread across the Shield Lands.
Earls, Counts, and Dukes were, however, may or may not be tied to a specific locale. Thus, you would have the Earl of Walsworth.
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A it looks like the Shield Lands Living Greyhawk site is down, I don't know what they did with regards to detailing anything in the Shield Lands. It's really too bad that so many of the external Living Greyhawk sites have gone down, as the material they presented could at the very least have given people ideas to make use of or build from.
The title "lord" would be slightly above that of knight, as it implies a landed noble, whereas a knight is not guaranteed to be landed but surely owes fealty to somebody. A landed knight, therefor being a high ranking knight, would be accorded the same level of respect as a minor landed lord, or maybe even bear the title of lord as well depending on the importance of the land that they oversee.
Not exactly the most lofty and ringing of titles, but you get the idea.
