In 292 CY, the independent nation of Junre, along with the dwarven and elven lands bordering the Lortmil Mountains, were absorbed peacefully into the Kingdom of Keoland and given the names County, Principality, and Duchy of Ulek.
Where does the name "Ulek" come from, do you think? The name of a noble family, deceased heir, an alternate name for the Lortmils themselves? Could it be a Keoish word for "East?"
Of course, the name is an anagram for Luke, as in Luke Gygax; I'm not asking about the real-world inspiration for the name, but what the name might signify in the game world.
Fate of Istus says that the County of Ulek was formerly the nation of Jurnre, which is how we know these lands weren't called Ulek before their incorporation into Keoland. That could have still been an old, collective name for the lands east of the Sheldomar River, but what would its derivation have been? The name of an extinct Flan people, perhaps, an old Oeridian tribe or an archaic name for the Sheldomar or Kewl (Kewlek)? Any preferences or interesting theories?
This site identifies Ulek as the name of a dwarven kingdom that was once centered in the Lortmils, which actually sounds pretty reasonable to me. The local demihumans might still think of those lands as being part of the old domain of Ulek long after the dwarven kingdom shattered.
Completely my conjecture, but in my Keoland History I said that the Suel refer to themselves as "Se-Ul" , meaning "our people" and other cultures as "Ul-ek" meaning "other people". _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
In the old Thor comics one of Thor's nemeses was the troll Ulek. He was extremely powerful. I could see the modern name being derived from an older dwarven name, with the ancient dwarves perhaps calling the region after a particularly powerful troll king of some kind.
Some to think of it, I kind of like this idea; I might even use it IMC...
Also, I always interpreted the author's (Findley?) references to Jurne being a nation as confusing the County of Ulek with its capital.
Furthermore, according to Dragon #253, the County had existed as such for over 200 years before the crowning of the first Overking. It also mentions the semi-mythical rule of a "Count Cartair," who ruled the County sometime between -145 & -45 CY.
I would fix the historical discrepancies by having Jurnre originally being founded as a city state c. -325, but then being absorbed into the nascent County of Ulek over the following century.
Doesn't help with your question on the naming origin, however.
There shouldn't be a County of Ulek until 292 CY, though, if we're to believe the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. Before it became part of Keoland, there wasn't anything for it to be a county of.
I have no idea how to reconcile the Dragon #253 material. It sounds like the LGG was just written without the authors being aware of Scott Casper's (pretty obscure) work. Discounting that article, it'd be easy to say that the nation was known as Jurnre until it was incorporated into Keoland. Primary to that, I have no idea why it would be a county, or why it would have a count. Maybe the nation of Jurnre itself had a county in it, which was called Ulek.
There shouldn't be a County of Ulek until 292 CY, though, if we're to believe the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. Before it became part of Keoland, there wasn't anything for it to be a county of.
The LGG (p. 65) says, "In 292 CY, Tavish negotiated a treaty to formalize the union of the Ulek states to Keoland, bringing them into closer cooperation with the Throne of the Lion."
In my mind, this is simply a formalization of a much longer relationship. The individual Ulek entries further support this:
"The County of Ulek has had a long history as one of the more peaceful lands in the Flanaess. The native Flan and halfling peoples were willing to accept Oeridian sovereignty in exchange for protection from the more rapacious Suel, then showed an equal willingness to accept Suloise of more amiable disposition. They came under the rule of Keoland in that state's early history, though the county was always a distinct land with its own lord. The Old Faith (druidism), as practiced by the common folk throughout the central Flanaess, was the center of culture here. The sovereign was always a member of the druidic hierarchy, whose position was respected by both the human and nonhuman inhabitants of the county, regardless of the ruler's race or patron
deity." (p. 117)
"The Uleks have provided shelter to Good-aligned nonhumans for untold centuries, while wars and displaced human nations have moved across the
Flanaess, consuming most of the habitable lands." (p. 118)
"Keoland made this a province in later generations, but not without first conceding local authority to the high elven duke and granting him a voice
in the Royal Council." (p. 118)
"Dwarves have lived in these hills since well before the Great Migrations a millennium ago. Treated as an extension of the legendary dwarven kingdoms of the Lortmils at their height, there has been a dwur prince in these foothills long before there ever was a human king in Niole Dra." (p. 121)
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I have no idea how to reconcile the Dragon #253 material. It sounds like the LGG was just written without the authors being aware of Scott Casper's (pretty obscure) work. Discounting that article, it'd be easy to say that the nation was known as Jurnre until it was incorporated into Keoland. Primary to that, I have no idea why it would be a county, or why it would have a count. Maybe the nation of Jurnre itself had a county in it, which was called Ulek.
Based on the above, I can see the Duchy being a Celanese (or perhaps the elves of the Dim Forest) dukedom & the Principality being subject to the dwarven king of the Lortmils. The County may have been a Flan realm ruled by the Old Faith, perhaps subject to the elven or dwarven rulers, or possibly another human realm. The decline, fall, isolation, etc of their mother states led to increased autonomy, & closer ties with one another, with their rulers deigning to keep their titles. With the rise of Keoland, the three realms probably were more than happy to offer their fealty in return for protection & a significant amount of autonomy. Perhaps part of the reason they were willing to do this is that the Keoish may have forged a Keoish-Uleki alliance against Vecna's empire. I can even see the Neheli convincing the Ulek states that it was they, not Kas, who were responsible for Vecna's downfall.
Without a formal feudal relationship, though, it wouldn't have been a county, and its ruler wouldn't have been a count. The title itself is a formal acknowledgment of feudal obligation. And there's no indication that happened before 292. I agree they likely had close ties with Keoland long before then, but it seems likely that the nation's ruler would have had a title befitting someone who was at least nominally independent of any other throne - probably a druidic title.
I'm sure it wasn't simple confusion that led Stephen Inniss to call the initial nation Jurnre in Fate of Istus. Page 25 of that book says "Immris's expert leadership and the shared dangers of those times welded these diverse peoples into a city and nation they called Jurnre... Eventually Jurnre was absorbed by peaceful alliance into the fledgling Keoish kingdom as part of the County of Ulek." So clearly he knew the proper name of the modern nation, and deliberately gave it a different name early on.
Although I used to have the Uleks be named after an Oeridian tribe, I've come to the view that given the disparate natures of those nations, it refers to the geography of the region. I go with it meaning something like "Beyond the River" in Keoish.
Without a formal feudal relationship, though, it wouldn't have been a county, and its ruler wouldn't have been a count. The title itself is a formal acknowledgment of feudal obligation. And there's no indication that happened before 292. <snip>
Actually, there is:
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"<snip> Eventually Jurnre was absorbed by peaceful alliance into the fledgling Keoish kingdom as part of the County of Ulek." <snip>
(Bold & italics mine)
By 292 CY, Keoland had been in existence for over six centuries--far from a "fledgling" nation. This is further supported by the County of Ulek entry in the LGG.
In addition, given the fact that Jurnre was absorbed into Keoland "as part of the County of Ulek," I would assume that the nation of Jurnre did not cover the whole of the modern county, and was likely little more than a city-state at the time of its incorporation into the County.
In my mind, this is simply a formalization of a much longer relationship.
Well, yes. That's almost word-for-word what the LGG says, so I don't think that's in dispute. I know I never questioned that the two nations had a relationship of some kind; it doesn't seem to have been a formal one until the third century, however, and this is the crux of my argument.
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"They came under the rule of Keoland in that state's early history, though the county was always a distinct land with its own lord."
This part is more ambiguous and confusing. Clearly the Ulek states didn't unite with Keoland until 292 CY, so either they're considering 292 CY to be the early history of the nation, or the area was somehow ruled by Keoland but not formally considered part of Keoland, or that it informally ruled due to its military and economic influence but didn't rule in name.
In either case, it wouldn't have been a county of Keoland until the third century CY.
A count palatine, traditionally, is appointed by the king and is his direct representative. He isn't the County of Ulek's "own lord," distinct from the Keoish government, but an extension of the king and the Throne of the Black Lion. It seems clear that Ulek/Jurnre had a different form of government prior to 292 CY, when the ruling archdruid received the title of count palatine. After 361 CY, while the count retained his title, he did become entirely independent of the king (and must have been somewhat autonomous even before then, if he was able to send Keoland's royal garrisons home).
What if "Count Palatine" simply meant a territorial governor, confirmed by the king, without a voice in the Court of the Land, but in 292 CY he was granted the full rights and privileges of a Keoish noble, Ulek no longer a subject territory but a full province with all the responsibilities and honors thereof? I'm still not convinced that's a proper use of the word, though I'm less confident about this.
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By 292 CY, Keoland had been in existence for over six centuries--far from a "fledgling" nation.
I wouldn't think so either, unless you consider all nations to have been "fledglings" in some sense until they reached a more modern level of sophistication less than 200 years ago, or if you're writing from the point of view of a 2000 year old grey elf. I agree that it's obvious that Stephen Inniss intended Jurnre to have become part of the County of Ulek much earlier, but the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer gives us a specific date and Fate of Istus does not, so it seems we're stuck with the later date.
I agree that the nation of Jurnre was likely originally relatively small, and didn't cover all of the modern County of Ulek. I also think it's very possible that the state of Jurnre was absorbed into something called Ulek very early on. This doesn't seem to have been the County of Ulek, though, or the fledgling Keoish kingdom, since we have a date in the LGG for that event: 292 CY.
Whatever land Jurnre was absorbed into early in Keoland's history, I don't think it would have been called the County of Ulek. If Ulek is a county, then it's a formal part of the Keoish state. Yet we know it wasn't formally recognized as such until the third century. So the ruler must have had another title more appropriate for the leader of a nation not yet formally part of the other country. Perhaps the Archdruidom of Ulek? Or simply the Archdruidom of Jurnre.
I think it's possible that Jurnre Ulek had a Count Palatine in its territory that acted as a representative of the Keoish king prior to 292 CY, but did not actually rule the land (which had "its own lord"). In that case, I still don't think it could have been properly considered a county.
I suppose it could have been absorbed by Keoland, won its independence, been absorbed by Keoland a second time in 292 CY, and then in 361 CY won its freedom yet again, but there's no direct indication of that happening in the canon.
Also, I always interpreted the author's (Findley?) references to Jurne being a nation as confusing the County of Ulek with its capital.
Furthermore, according to Dragon #253, the County had existed as such for over 200 years before the crowning of the first Overking. It also mentions the semi-mythical rule of a "Count Cartair," who ruled the County sometime between -145 & -45 CY.
I note that Count Cartair is supposed to have fought the Kingdom of Keoland, implying that not only was his nation not part of that realm, but was actually violently opposed to it (and at political odds with the other two Ulek states). If Ulek was a County back then, it apparently wasn't one of Keoland's counties, unless it was a rebellious one.
I note that Count Cartair is supposed to have fought the Kingdom of Keoland, implying that not only was his nation not part of that realm, but was actually violently opposed to it (and at political odds with the other two Ulek states). If Ulek was a County back then, it apparently wasn't one of Keoland's counties, unless it was a rebellious one.
The easiest way to rectify this might be to assume that the County was subject to another nation before Keoland (perhaps Celene, or the dwarven kingdom of the Lortmils). After all, the LGG already confirms a prince in the Principality prior to Keoish integration, and it implies there was an elven Duke already in northern Ulek as well.
That would be interesting, actually. And whatever nation originally ruled the County of Ulek could be the origin of the word "Ulek." It sounds more Dwarven than Elven to me.
I don't think it would even be unreasonable for the Duchy of Ulek to be subject to a dwarven nation; that would help explain its split from Celene.
I was always under the impression that the County and Duchy had been subject to the Principality, the latter being a remnant of the once-proud dwur kingdom of the Lortmils.
I meant to post this a long time ago, but forgot...
A simple solution to the name's origin (in-world) might lie in the name of the goddess Ulaa, beloved by dwarves and other demihumans, especially in the region of the Lortmils. Ulek could mean "people of Ulaa," or "Ulaa's Folk," or (land devoted) "to Ulaa." The valleys in the western shadow of the Lortmils might have borne this name for centuries before any states were created or codified. Also this might explain why we end up with three realms with the same name - all were part of the original, larger region known as Ulek.
IMC I further specified North Ulek, Middle Ulek, South Ulek to reduce confusion.
Apologies if someone else already came up with this idea.
I think that is a perfectly brilliant solution, Chevalier! Ulaa being underused as she is, would benefit greatly from having three nations named in her honor.
Maybe Ull was named after her, too. It's got hills, and Ulaa isn"'t associated with any one people. But regardless, the Ulek/Ulaa connection is a good one.
I like it, but I wonder if I'll have to alter my pronunciations. I've always said YOO-lek and OO-lah. If the former is derived from the latter, they should probably be pronounced the same.
Nice to have the big names' approval. DMPrata - it occurs to me that those are my pronunciations too. But maybe Flan (or whichever language you want the word "Ulek" to be from), like Anglo-Saxon, changes vowel pronunciations in certain cases. Or we can get used to saying YOO-La.
I agree that Ulaa gets shorted, particularly after the advent of Moradin et al. in print. There might be interesting rivalries between priests of Ulaa and Ehlonna within the Uleks...this brings to mind a passage from The Silmarillion in which Aule (the smith "god", maker of the Dwarves) has something of an argument with his spouse Yavanna ("goddess" of trees, plants, animals). After Yavanna learned of the creation of Ents to guard the forests, she said to Aule: "'Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.'
'Nonetheless they shall have need of wood,' said Aule, and he went on with his smith-work."
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