There's a pretty fascinating series of posts at the Beyond the Black Gate blog on reinterpreting/refocusing the Greyhawk setting to be more of a Robert E. Howard/Jack Vance/H.P. Lovecraft/Michael Moorcock/Frank Frazetta Sword & Sorcery world. The author takes a second look at every part of the setting but the maps, creating:
It could also work as a parallel reality that the PCs stumble into, for example, the "Uerth" described in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, in which everyone's parallel-universe self has an alignment opposite of their Oerth-equivalents.
Wow! How'd I miss this? It's old but the notions in the first linked post are quite compelling! I like the reimagined Dyvers. That makes it a place worth going to instead of GHC.
Most of it is much too dark for my vision of Greyhawk, but I appreciate the idea because I can incorporate many parts of Ravyn's Greyhawk into my own, just in different places.
For example, his version of Dyvers could not exist in my Greyhawk between Furyondi, Veluna, and Greyhawk City. Those surrounding powers would simply not tolerate a den of slavery and Iuzian worship in their midst. No thieves/assassin's guild would be powerful enough to protect the city from those foreign powers if they could take on Iuz himself.
However, such a city could exist in the Pomarj, the Hold of the Sea Princes, the Great Kingdom, perhaps even Ket. Those would be excellent places within my version of the Flanaess to develope a city similar to Ravyn's vision of Dyvers.
I will keep reading to see what other aspects of his campaign I can adopt into my own.
Don't forget that Dyvers became independent because of resentment of the close ties with the religious LG Veluna. Why would a decent, money-grubbing merchant feel threatened by a peaceful and merciful LG religion?
In addition, Gary placed a large temple of Nerull in Dyvers and the Archdeacon (or whatever his title was) of Asmodeus sat among the Oligarchs of Greyhawk. It seems clear that the major trading cities of the Flanaess never were so benign. I think it's all a question of how open the debauched and wicked ways are. If the evil cults and practices are hidden beneath a thin veneer of "decency" it is possible to avoid looking beneath the surface (at least for the non-paladin kings of Furyondy!). In addition, Dyvers should be a major source of income for all the countries around Nyr Dyv and along the Velverdyva River. _________________ Never say blip-blip to a kuo-tua
However, I can't see the Dyvers scenario; as a major trading center and caravan destination falling into such a deplorable condition. Or more precisely the surrounding nations with Iuz to the north, allowing such open depravity to thrive in the south "at their backs".
I am all for social change and even an evil pragmatism that thrives but given the neighborhood and the regional economic importance this level of evil makes no political sense. Every surrounding power would be marching on Dyvers to liberate the free city and seize the profits generated by the baklunish caravan trade.
The merchants of dyvers rebelled because velunese morality was costing them profits. I would argue such naked evil would cost these merchants even moreso. Baklunish caravan trade is too important to dyvers and arguably the entire flanaess. Within dyvers; business is business.
I'd be surprised to see Dyvers look like that in the official Oerth, but in an alternate world where Veluna, Greyhawk, and Furyondy are much weaker and barbarous and/or more corrupt/evil themselves, it might be perfectly plausible.
On the other hand, the Temple of Elemental Evil thrived near Verbobonc for a while, and the Pomarj thrives near Greyhawk City to this day.
Hmmm: I missed these posts, somehow, and I follow Al's blog already. Thanks for the poke, Rip! :D _________________ Allan Grohe<br />https://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html<br />https://grodog.blogspot.com/
I could see Dyvers in that image, everything is not all black and white. Besides unless Dyvers invades these lands what purpose do any of these lands have to try and force them out. Do we forget the ToEEE, Nulb, Bandit Kingdoms, Horned Society, and the Empire of Iuz.
When did any of these LG nations everyone has referred too step up and take them out? Answer none of them! So it is plausible.
Why does a Democratic government utilize a communist one to manufacture the majority of its goods? See not all black and white. If you think outside alignment and more on the reasons wars are actually started and how they are supported then Free cities and countries like Dyvers can easily exist in this scenario.
You ask some very pointed questions, Argon, and, at the risk of derailing the original post, I'd like to answer them (at least with possibilities from my own reasoning ).
First, Furyondy, with its Paladin king, would gladly wipe Iuz and the Horned Society off the map of the Flanaess, if only it had the power to do so. The Shield Lands desperately desire to subjugate the lawless banditry of the Bandit Kingdoms, but haven't managed to accomplish that goal simply because they lack the military might to do so. It has been demonstrated that Veluna and Furyondy will not tolerate such evil as the Temple of Elemental Evil near their realms as an army was gathered and the Battle of Emridy Meadows was fought specifically to end that threat. Again, ten years later, another effort was supported by those governments to close down the machinations of that temple permanently. Greyhawk is focused more on maintaining its preeminent spot as the Gem of the 'merchantile' Flanaess, but is quite willing to use force to stop any serious threat to that status as its subjugation of Hardby and half of the Wild Coast can attest. And, though Greyhawk City is firmly under the control of Neutrals, they are wise enough to realize that they are not overly threatened by the fanatic advice of extreme 'Goods', but would suffer the loss of both profit and freedom by heeding the advice of 'Evils'. Therefore, Greyhawk is a staunch ally of the goodly nations.
In the fantasy world that is the World of Greyhawk, where goodly nations are ruled by Paladin kings and High Priests of Rao, it is not conceivable that even a strong city-state could continue to exist in the midst of such nations in a state of decadence and corruption the extent of which is described in Ravyn's image of Dyvers. Specifically, though those three goodly nations might tolerate many of the generic vices described that also exist in cities within their own borders, they would simply not tolerate such prolific slavery nor, especially, the overt worship of their arch-enemy, Iuz, right in their own back yards, so to speak.
The only way, in my mind, to allow for such a drastic change in Dyvers' atmosphere is to make equally drastic changes to either the social climate or the economic and military power of the states bordering Dyvers. Such changes are, in fact, what I believe Ravyn is envisioning in his re-focus of Greyhawk, but that is too much of a dark change for my own vision of the Flanaess and changing Dyvers so drastically without changing everything else to fit is just not believable. That's why I beleive that Ravyn's vision of Dyvers, by itself, is not appropriate for my own campaign, though as I said, a city with such an atmosphere may fit well in other parts of the Flanaess.
I agree the vision of Dyvers is particularly dark and would require some explaining in a setting that is otherwise canon but due to the mechanics of D&D (in any edition), we are naturally guided toward thinking of certain places as inherently good or inherently evil (and sometimes inherently neutral). The real world is very rarely that simple and the average nation in GH would almost always believe its own cause to be the just one and any enemies to be evil (or just plain wrong).
I think the refocused Dyvers could exist in a GH setting where nations are generally altogether more pragmatic. Assaulting a city the size of Dyvers would not be an easy task even for Furyondy and Veluna even if they wanted to so perhaps they are trying to bring it down from the inside with spies and assassins, adding even more facets to the re-imagined metropolis. In reality, nations rarely act for altruistic or moral reasons even when they say they do.
As to the Free City of Greyhawk itself, I have always viewed it as an entirely self-interested place as others have said here. I also built the Duchy of Urnst around a whole theme of corrupt nobles and a naive Duke based on the Leukish adventure in Fate of Istus for a home campaign many, many years ago. Now, if only I had the notes somewhere.....
When I want my Swords & Sorcery Howard/Leiber style, I run the game in the JG Wilderlands. Greyhawk is my bread-and-butter classic medieval fantasy game for D&D (which is what my crew wants most of the time...).
I also prefer to use the Mongoose Conan RPG (d20 OGL) for S&S.
I agree with Flint.... I like the interpretation, although I would tone down Dyvers a touch in my campaign. However I see it as entirely plausible. Firstly, as pointed out, real world politics of the time rarely lived as absolutes. Given that many Furyondian noble families would likely have family and trading ties with Dyvers it is not necessarily easy for the forces to summon either the military OR political power to overwhelm the state. Furthermore it is not clear that Greyhawk City would see it in their interest to find Dyvers' independence threatened by the larger powers to the West. Political and financial aid would definitely be options. One other wild card.... the Circle of Eight. Of old their response would often be unfathomable and appear at odds with their apparently benign aims.
With regards to the take on the Gnarley, Dark Druids clearly had a that atmosphere. In my campaign the old faith practiced by the Flan and particularly around that area has a more Pagan Celtic edge, entirely consistent with that interpretation. I even have the EEG as an historic perverting influence.
I agree with Flint.... I like the interpretation, although I would tone down Dyvers a touch in my campaign. However I see it as entirely plausible. Firstly, as pointed out, real world politics of the time rarely lived as absolutes. .
could be blended in with Samwise's article from a few years back.
http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=812
Which also restructures the power centers of the region and would make the whole thing more plausible. If there were DMs wanting a "start point" in the GH Future so to speak.
Just 2 coppers
Although I am a little late to this party, I would be remiss if I didn't mention the excellent series of posts on Wyrd Greyhawk found on the blog "Old Guard Gaming Accoutrements", where E.G. Palmer takes a similar bent in explaining his take on weird Greyhawk. There are some EXCELLENT ideas here, which really gives a new flavour to Greyhawk in a similar way to the posts mentioned above. The explanatory post can be found at http://oldguardgamingaccoutrements.blogspot.ca/2009/12/welcome-to-wyrd-greyhawk-well-all-laugh.html, then just search for the Wyrd Greyhawk tagged posts on the right side (I believe there's 14 of them). Very inspirational.
Oddly enough, this interpretation is the one I used for Athas, the world of the Dark Sun campaign setting.
Being a big fan of those authors (REH &HPL) I scoured all the 3rd ed books for monsters, items and encounters I felt apropos to their styles and tailored my descriptions/the campaign's atmosphere likewise.
While I agree with Sir Xaris that this isn't my cup of tea for the WoG,
rasgon wrote:
It could also work as a parallel reality that the PCs stumble into, for example, the "Uerth" described in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, in which everyone's parallel-universe self has an alignment opposite of their Oerth-equivalents.
this option you mention is not at all unpalatable.
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