Before I begin the debate, I confess I am not sure if this post belongs here or in 'Heresy' (or somehow both).
Therefore, I respectfully ask moderators to allow me to copy and repost it before deleting it, in case I have erred.
On to the show...
Under the entry for the Drachensgrab Hills on p. 49 of the Guide
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Legends say that these hills hide the resting place of one or more powerful creatures who may someday return to life.
On p. 53 of the Guide under the Drachensgrab (Mountains) entry
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The whole area is known to be filled with prized metals and fine quality gemstones, but many strange creatures of hostile nature life amidst the hills and mountains of Drachensgrab. Additionally, it is speculated that some terrible curse is upon the area, and legends relate that some powerful being or beings will arise in anger if their resting place is ever disturbed.
My personal take on this is the entire situation is a case of Whispers Down the Lane; the thesis of this post is that the "Earth Dragon" is none other than the Tarrasque, which sleeps fitfully within the heart of Hakentos.
My reasoning:
1} There is no solidly codified history to the being within the earth; merely vague mutterings of a nameless terror which may one day rise to wreak havoc. Were it to have happened long enough ago, the Tarrasque could easily be confused with a great dragon, demi-god, or a combination thereof.
The second edition Monstrous Manual claims the creature is:
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the most dreaded monster native to the Prime Material Plane... a killing machine
It continues
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It is hoped that the tarrasque is a solitary creation, some hideous abomination unleashed by the dark arts or by elder, forgotten gods to punish all of nature. The elemental nature of the tarrasque leads the few living Tarrasque experts to speculate that the elemental princes of evil have something to do with its existence. In any case, the location of the Tarrasque remains a mystery, as it rarely leaves witnesses in its wake, and nature quickly grows over all remnants of its presence. It is rumored that the Tarrasque is responsible for the extinction of one ancient civilization, for the records of their last days spoke of a 'great reptilian punisher sent by the gods to end the world'.
2} The bloody and chaotic history of the Pomarj could very well be due to the subtle, almost karmic, influence of such a creature; a creature, though technically Neutral, whose sole purpose is savage violence and wanton destruction.
Now from the Greyhawk Wiki:
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The Drachensgrab Hills are rich in mineral wealth and filled with monsters. There are several small mountains in their midst, including one active volcano (Mount Flamenblut). The Drachensgrabs contain many lakes and small streams. The hills are irregular, with many flat areas between them.
The largest mountain in the Drachensgrabs is Mount Drachenkopf, the home of the hidden city of Kalen Lekos. To the west is the more famous Mount Flamenblut, which destroyed the city of Suderham. South of Mount Flamenblut is the small smoking mountain Drach Aloos. The smallest mountain in the Drachensgrabs is Hakentos. Rising from the shadow of Mount Drachenkopf, Hakentos is considered taboo by worshipers of the Earth Dragon.
From the Greyhawk wiki regarding the Earth Dragon:
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It is the spirit of Mount Drachenkopf in the Pomarj.
3} To me, this is where the genius of a primitive people shines through. Eons ago, they subdued the beast - likely at terrible cost - and made the area of the apocalyptic conflict sacred ground however they lied about where the beast resides for the obvious reason of wanting to prevent its reawakening by another group/individual; this is precisely why I feel the Tarrasque resides within Hakentos.
4} Spells given to followers of the 'Earth Dragon' could be granted by any number of powers for any number of reasons. Many of which may be to keep the Tarrasque in its troubled slumber.
[As a meta-game note - clerics need not even worship a deity to gain spells in 3rd ed, merely an idea, or concept; this fits perfectly with my thesis]
All thoughts are welcome.
Last edited by DrassustheGaunt on Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:22 pm; edited 5 times in total
I like the idea of the deception that Mount Hakentos was declared holy ground and is the true location of the slumbering beast, while misdirection claims Mount Drackenkopf to be its lair.
I'll also suggest that it could be a deity of Chaos that grants spells to priests believing they are worshipping the Earth Dragon as it is their (and the deity's) plan to awaken it. That would surely make a CE or CN deity happy.
I like the idea of the deception that Mount Hakentos was declared holy ground and is the true location of the slumbering beast, while misdirection claims Mount Drackenkopf to be its lair.
Thank you.
SirXaris wrote:
I'll also suggest that it could be a deity of Chaos that grants spells to priests believing they are worshipping the Earth Dragon as it is their (and the deity's) plan to awaken it. That would surely make a CE or CN deity happy.
Great minds think alike.
I was considering...
From the Earth Dragon entry on the Greyhawk wiki:
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Priests of the Earth Dragon wear brown robes embroidered with gold thread and gems.
And from p.73 of the Guide, regarding Olidamarra:
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CN - Tricks.... Clerics of this deity dress in brown...
I think you are safe in your posting locale, though history will clearly show that I often err in my own posting locations. Right, Ceb?
Anyhow, I, too, once remarked to my long-time friend/player/DM the same as you, that the dreadful Tarrasque slumbered in the Pomarj. Too, I think it was once written, somewhere, of the rumor that some quasi- or demi-Power likewise rested in either the Wild Coast or Pomarj. I regarded that as a hint towards Krovis, but perhaps that's merely my own thoughts...
-Lanthorn
p.s. for the record (and this may be construed as 'heresy' but so be it), I personally never liked the idea of the Earth Dragon as a Demi-Power. With all the choices given already, I saw no reason to add it (seemingly as an afterthought, as far as I was concerned), and thusly, in my running of the SlaveLords, I changed the priests from serving the Earth Dragon to that of Erythnul instead.
... for the record (and this may be construed as 'heresy' but so be it), I personally never liked the idea of the Earth Dragon as a Demi-Power. With all the choices given already, I saw no reason to add it (seemingly as an afterthought, as far as I was concerned), and thusly, in my running of the SlaveLords, I changed the priests from serving the Earth Dragon to that of Erythnul instead.
Thanks, Lanthorn and I agree with your decision to avoid making it yet another demi-power/deity.
Thanks to rasgon, I checked the article of the author that beat me to it (Bdpenny) and he feels the same:
Quote:
Yes, the Earth Dragon is canon, but its true nature was never given real detail. Frankly, I've enough deities to deal with in Greyhawk than to add yet more obscure divine beings to the mix.
I'm curious - what made you choose Erythnul?
I'm considering running the Slaver's series (personally updated for 3.5) in the coming months but haven't decided on what to make the cult and your
input would help the process.
Glad you appreciate my stance on the Earth Dragon. It's nice to know I am not the only one to 'question' what may be considered as sacred (I tinker all the time with things).
To answer your question:
Well, I looked at the modus operandi of the SlaveLords as a whole, looked at the Lords of Nine, then considered the placement of their base of operations in the Pomarj. Since I did not like the idea of using the Earth Dragon, I began looking at my choices of a suitable Power replacement that struck me as a better replacement.
Erythnul stood out as the best choice given that he is worshipped by humans and humanoids alike, and seemed a logical option for a group of marauders, slavers, and the like. Hextor and Nerull were secondary choices, but those two Powers already have strong bases of worship elsewhere in the Flanaess (Great Kingdom, Bandit Kingdoms, and the Hierarchs), so I didn't want to use them. Erythnul seemed to have a better 'fit' in the Pomarj. Consequently, I thought this was the best choice given those factors. I also took some minor dislike that the Earth Dragon would have pirates and buccaneers to do its handiwork (my opinion). Didn't seem to fit the profile. So, I switched it to Erythnul instead.
I also took some minor dislike that the Earth Dragon would have pirates and buccaneers to do its handiwork (my opinion). Didn't seem to fit the profile.
I hadn't considered that but it makes perfect sense.
Great job.
I can't say I've made up my mind yet but you've certainly pushed Erythnul much higher on the list!
Look at the profile of Erythnul, from the original boxed set to From the Ashes and The Living Greyhawk Gazeteer. To me, it screams Wild Coast and the Pomarj as a major site of worship among humanoids, bandits, brigands, and also sea-roving pirates and buccaneers. The SlaveLords would only strengthen their power base by embracing (superficially or not) that blood-thirsty, brutal, and marauding creed. Erythnul is also partly pre-disposed to the humanoid pantheon (and vice versa), so orc and hobgoblin clerics of their respective Powers would not be alienated, either. Finally, Erythnul has a (weak?) alliance with Hextor, too, especially where their goals are shared against 'do-gooders.'
According to A Guide to the WORLD OF GREYHAWK Fantasy Setting, page 49, the Drachensgrab hills are rumored to “hide the resting place of one or more powerful creatures who may someday return to life.” This is indeed true.
Hidden in the sandy hills of the Pomarj lies the resting place of Krovis, a quasideity. Krovis has been resting in a hidden crypt for almost 2,000 years, awaiting-the time, foretold in several ancient Flan legends, when his presence is once more required in the Flanaess. Krovis is close to the deity Trithereon (“The Summoner”), and it is his purpose to prevent the domination of any goodly portion of the Flanaess by a single individual or state. Krovis’s avatar has, in the past, emerged from his crypt to bring down several empires that dominated the central regions of the Flanaess, including the dominions of the Isles of Woe and the Empire of
Lum the Mad (both of which occurred more than 1,000 years ago). There are whispers from those sages that know of his existence (not many do) that the current machinations of the Great Kingdom and certain of the Princes of the Abyss could potentially awaken Krovis from his sleep."
The article goes on to give stats on Krovis and details on what his actions usually are upon awakening.
Iron Golem, thank you! I knew I wasn't completely mad! I just don't remember reading it in a Dragon Magazine (but still a possibility), but some other source or guide. Nonetheless, much appreciated!
That Sleeper article wasn't very well written as it claims Krovis has been in his crypt for "almost 2000 years" then says that he brought down a couple of previous civilizations "more than 1,000 years ago".
Technically, there is no contradiction, but the numbers are given in a very confusing manner.
I should mention that according to Rob Kuntz, the original description of a mysterious sleeper in the Drachensgrabs was an allusion to Rob Kuntz's unpublished "Lair of the Pit Fiend" adventure.
Krovis was the later creation of Joseph Bloch, our own Greyhawk Grognard.
Of course, there's no reason there couldn't be multiple sleeping entities in the hills, including a pit fiend, the Tarrasque, Krovis, and an elemental earth dragon spirit.
There's been lots of prior discussion of Krovis, and IIRC some about the dating given in See The Pomarj and Die. Just use the 'search the forums" function to find some of them if you're interested.
I seem to be in the minority in liking the Earth Dragon as a demi-power, but then I'm also the guy who seems to think there aren't enough gods. If I had my way the Oerth would be crawling with saints, nature spirits and other demi-powers.
That said, I like what you guys are doing with Erythnul. I always thought he should have gotten more mention, or at least been in the list of gods worshiped in the Pomarj in the LGG. The one thing I will say is that the general impression I've gotten is that he and Hextor hate each other, but that might just totally be my interpretation. This also depends on whether or not you agree with the retconning of orcs as being CE instead of LE.
I seem to be in the minority in liking the Earth Dragon as a demi-power, but then I'm also the guy who seems to think there aren't enough gods. If I had my way the Oerth would be crawling with saints, nature spirits and other demi-powers.
Oh, I agree with that. I think the pantheons of Oerth should have a pyramid-shaped structure, with many more demigods than lesser gods and many more lesser gods than greater gods. I like local saints and little nature spirits.
That said, I don't think a "spirit of the land" is really the most appropriate patron of a slaver sect or humanoid nation. I'd go with Tiamat, personally, as the patron of the Slave Lords. They might call her "the Earth Dragon," and she might even have usurped an existing nature spirit (or Tarrasque-worshiping) cult.
That said, I don't think a "spirit of the land" is really the most appropriate patron of a slaver sect or humanoid nation. I'd go with Tiamat, personally, as the patron of the Slave Lords. They might call her "the Earth Dragon," and she might even have usurped an existing nature spirit (or Tarrasque-worshiping) cult.
I'd say that depends on how much of a jerk the spirit of the land is, but yeah, I get your point.
I'm not surprised we agree on the gods thing. I'll take this moment to recommend a book you might want to check out. It's Blackdog by KV Johansen. Lots of interesting themes with gods, and small gods especially, plus just a cool fantasy adventure so far.
...I also took some minor dislike that the Earth Dragon would have pirates and buccaneers to do its handiwork (my opinion). Didn't seem to fit the profile. So, I switched it to Erythnul instead...
-IIRC, the Earth Dragon accepts Chaotic worshippers. When you've been dormant for hundreds of years, you can't be picky.
Besides, as you pointed out elsewhere wrt the giants and elements of teh TEE, they're just tools.
Lanthorn wrote:
... I personally never liked the idea of the Earth Dragon as a Demi-Power. With all the choices given already, I saw no reason to add it (seemingly as an afterthought, as far as I was concerned), and thusly, in my running of the SlaveLords, I changed the priests from serving the Earth Dragon to that of Erythnul instead.
-Well, the Earth Dragon does have a precedence that goes back to A4, IIRC.
smillan_31 wrote:
...I seem to be in the minority in liking the Earth Dragon as a demi-power, but then I'm also the guy who seems to think there aren't enough gods. If I had my way the Oerth would be crawling with saints, nature spirits and other demi-powers...
...and...
rasgon wrote:
...I think the pantheons of Oerth should have a pyramid-shaped structure, with many more demigods than lesser gods and many more lesser gods than greater gods. I like local saints and little nature spirits...
-Ah! You beat me to the pyramid analogy! The Flanaess has enough Greater, Intermediate and Lesser deities, but I think we can actually use more of the lesser sorts, like Demi-deities and Hero-deities. If the power regime is anything like a pyramid, there should be a lot more of them. As it is, the power pyramid is sort of top heavy.
rasgon wrote:
...That said, I don't think a "spirit of the land" is really the most appropriate patron of a slaver sect or humanoid nation. I'd go with Tiamat, personally, as the patron of the Slave Lords. They might call her "the Earth Dragon," and she might even have usurped an existing nature spirit (or Tarrasque-worshiping) cult.
-I don't see the Earth Dragon as a patron per se. It's just happy to see the sacrifices coming, and doesn't particulalry care what the source is. The priesthood has the same attitude with the temporal power that the salve trade brings. There are enough real world equivalents.
Lanthorn wrote:
...Look at the profile of Erythnul, from the original boxed set to From the Ashes and The Living Greyhawk Gazeteer. To me, it screams Wild Coast and the Pomarj as a major site of worship among humanoids, bandits, brigands, and also sea-roving pirates and buccaneers. The SlaveLords would only strengthen their power base by embracing (superficially or not) that blood-thirsty, brutal, and marauding creed. Erythnul is also partly pre-disposed to the humanoid pantheon (and vice versa), so orc and hobgoblin clerics of their respective Powers would not be alienated, either. Finally, Erythnul has a (weak?) alliance with Hextor, too, especially where their goals are shared against 'do-gooders.'
...and...
smillan_31 wrote:
... I like what you guys are doing with Erythnul. I always thought he should have gotten more mention, or at least been in the list of gods worshiped in the Pomarj in the LGG. The one thing I will say is that the general impression I've gotten is that he and Hextor hate each other, but that might just totally be my interpretation. This also depends on whether or not you agree with the retconning of orcs as being CE instead of LE.
-I agree with this part. I thought Slavers did mention Erythnul as a popular deity of human origin in the Pomarj, along with Hextor and Beltar. They missed him in the LGG? Oh well.
Anyway, it doesn't mean that he needs to run the show.
Like some many things, though, I've never actaully gotten around to DMing this. My mind is still open to alternatives. Sort of.
OK, I can't resist:
rasgon wrote:
...Of course, there's no reason there couldn't be multiple sleeping entities in the hills, including a pit fiend, the Tarrasque, Krovis, and an elemental earth dragon spirit.
"Hey, Elmerax! What you got there?"
"Oh, I was diggin' a well, and came up with another one of those dang evil sleeping deity things. Damn nuisances!"
That said, I don't think a "spirit of the land" is really the most appropriate patron of a slaver sect or humanoid nation. I'd go with Tiamat, personally, as the patron of the Slave Lords. They might call her "the Earth Dragon," and she might even have usurped an existing nature spirit (or Tarrasque-worshiping) cult.
I like that so much, I may use it if I run the Slaver's series anytime soon.
Erythnul is mentioned in LGG. Also, in the entry about Hextor in Bastion of Faith, it is mentioned that Erythnul is an ally of Hextor.
He is, but not as being worshiped in the Pomarj, although he is listed as one of the gods of the N. Kingdom and Bone March, I'm assuming due to worship by orcs and other humanoids in both. I checked all my standard religious references for an Erythnul-Hextor alliance, except Bastion of Faith. I knew you would have a reference. The rivalry with Erythnul comes from the Dragon, Core Beliefs article on Hextor by Sean K. Reynolds. It actually has Hextor, as a younger god having wrestled the mantle of God of War for the Oeridians from Erythnul. Of course that myth is told from a Hextoran point of view so I like to think it was both Hextor and Heironeous that did it, back in the days before they became enemies. In fact I like to say that the praise heaped on Heironeous for his part in this deed, by the other gods, was the real beginning of their split. Part of this is in an article about the Oeridian gods that may see publication someday, although I've probably been working on it for about 4 years now.
I try to cite references whenever I can. I imagine the two Powers do compete somewhat for followers, but their overall structure is totally different. Some creed overlap exists, but Hextor and Erythnul have different aspects and approaches to their outcomes. However, I would imagine the two Powers, and thus their clergy, do cooperate where they face a common foe, such as those who follow Good Powers.
I am indeed the inventor of the Flan quasi-deity known as Krovis, and it was a direct response to the brief mention about the sleeping something under the Drachensgrabs. Bear in mind the article was written before the revelation that the original mention in the Guide referred to the Pit Fiend in Rob Kuntz's unpublished adventure. I never conflated the sleeping whatsit with the Earth Dragon, but there's no reason at all there can't be more than one sleeper in them thar hills...
As far as the timing goes, the original intention was that Krovis awoke at various points, did his duty to collapse whatever Flan-oppressing empire needed collapsing, and then went back to his slumber. Hope that clarifies the seeming contradictions in the time line.
Bear in mind this is all iirc, which after 20 years is not at all guaranteed. I've not read the article I wrote in years, so don't hold me to every jot and tittle.
I had a brief campaign in the Pomarj with several long-term players and a new guy toward the end of 2e and as an attempt to run an evil PC campaign. It was set in Highport.
Hence I spent some time thinking about Slavers and the A series and GreyhawkGrognard's old Dragon article.
From this thread, I like the idea of multiple powers sleeping in the hills, along with the idea that Tiamat usurped the pre-existing nature spirit known by the Flan as the Earth Dragon (or perhaps Beltar?). (IMC, the Tarrasque sleeps in the Rift Canyon, but I see how placing it within / beneath the Drachensgrabs makes sense.)
Regarding the "pyramid" idea of gods in the Flanaess, while I tend to agree with wanting more lesser godlings, demi-gods, hero-gods, quasi-deities, and nature spirits, seeing several posters' agreement makes me wonder why there are not more of them "today" and suggest that maybe there once were many more, i.e., before the Great Migrations.
Many moons ago I recall (dimly) greytalking about how the gods Oerthwalked more commonly in past centuries (tracking the 1e GH materials that mentioned their presence on Oerth) in contrast to the 6th century CY (and the 2e materials that did not mention their avatars' manifestations).
Today, with the Pathfinder game's kami fresh in mind (described in both the Bestiary 3, the Dragon Empires Gazeteer and several issues of the Jade Regent Adventure Path, I imagine that the kami and fey were much more prevalent in the Flanaess before the Great Migrations.
In addition to their Oerthwalking gods, the firstcomer Suel, the Aerdi and lesser Oeridian tribes very likely depopulated the lands not only of the Flan but also of the fey, kami and other quasi-deific "nature spirits," using their metaphysicality to power ancient artifacts and relics, ruin their enemies' morale, etc.
Of course, there's no reason there couldn't be multiple sleeping entities in the hills, including a pit fiend, the Tarrasque, Krovis, and an elemental earth dragon spirit.
There's actually been a total of six different "sleeper" interpretations:
vestcoat wrote:
Finally, you may want to decide how many different things actually sleep beneath the Drachensgrabs, as every GH author has a different take on that old Folio reference:
* The "Pit of Geburah" aka "Lair of the Pit Fiend" - RJK (unpublished, summary available online)
* Temples of Tharizdun - Carl Sargent, Dr191, p67
* Krovis - Joe Bloch
* The Twisted Forest - Jim Ward & company, GH Adventures
* The Oerth Dragon - A1-4
* the Tarrasque - some fan material
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