I saw this thread over at Candlekeep Forum, and thought it would make a neat question for Greyhawk fans. What about Greyhawk makes it so interesting to you? Why are you passionate about it? (If not, why not?)
There's alot of reasons why I love Greyhawk, but there is two main reasons that rise to the fore. First is the maps. I love maps of all kinds and an RPG setting map is always the first thing that grabs me. Back in school I probably knew the Darlene map as well as a map of the USA.
Second, I find Greyhawk infinitely interesting because the setting has a rich internal history that is constantly being studied and expanded upon by countless authors. For an average D&D game this stuff hardly matters but this meta-information taken as a whole is a shared scholarly pursuit that makes Greyhawk special.
She was my first, and will always be special. Plus, it's the only setting which is loose enough to let me decide what I want it to be. You could do this with other settings, but not as easily. Finally, there is just something about it that I love. Maybe how it's been built upon by different people over the years.
I'm with Smillan on this, for starters. Greyhawk was my first campaign world, and though I have delved (GASP!) into Forgotten Realms and Krynn, I have always returned to WoG. It would be a hard sell to convince me to change to another.
Secondly, after trying out other setttings, I liked how Oerth seemed more 'balanced' with power levels. A few exceptions exist, of course, but such luminaries are NOT the norm. I don't think that is true with Forgotten Realms, and though I may offend/rankle a few feathers with this statement, I have found FR to be more apt to a 'power gaming' standard....at least in comparison to WoG. I don't prefer that.
Thirdly, I think that WoG has more depth in some ways with respect to the characterization of the campaign setting. However, this does not detract from the possibility of allowing people to add their own details and style, fleshing out various regions as they see fit. There is enough structure and form to give you a 'skeleton' without delineating each and every minor facet and detail.
Lastly, perhaps out of nostalgia, it is Gygax's creation...
*Magic takes a backseat. GH gods, dragons, and wizards don't run around leveling kingdoms with meteor swarms. Other than Iuz, nations rise and fall through the strength of their wits, armies, and politics, not their magic. The CoE has certainly been overused since the '98 relaunch and 3E, but GH wizards still generally have less influence and celebrity status than they do in DL and FR.
*The lack of product support. GH collecting has become a chore in recent years, but it didn't use to be. As a teenager with a tiny income in the early Nineties, GH was a lot more approachable than the barrage of $30 boxed sets FR had on the shelf. The absence of a corporate profit margin also sheltered GH from needless expansions like Mazteca and the constant the overhauls and world-changing events inflicted upon FR.
*Great homebrew. The lack of official support sparked excellent fan works, from Oerth Journal, to Dungeon Magazine, to Living Greyhawk.
*The history. From classic modules to the names of its characters, GH is inextricably linked to the roots of D&D.
*Great writers. Most settings have one or two. GH has been blessed with three visionaries (Gygax, Sargent, Moore) plus a vanguard of incredible supporters: Kuntz, Mona, Weining, Mentzer, Lakofka, Pramas, Talanian, etc.
*Flavor: gritty realism, human-centric, and evil on the rise. Both the Folio and FtA paint a pretty bleak picture of the Flanaess, setting the stage for heroes better than a "high fantasy' world can, IMO.
*Lots of gods and quasi-deities. I really enjoy keeping track of them and writing up 2E rules for specialty priests.
Last edited by vestcoat on Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:02 am; edited 1 time in total
This is a very good question which all of the above posters have answered well but for me, I think it is that GH, throughout its history has remained internally consistent even when different authors have been involved. FR suffers greatly from the profusion of authors, both of game products and of novels who each feel the need to include their own take on certain areas (in the case of game products) and who have to introduce their own world-shaking plots (in the case of novels).
Greyhawk has remained Greyhawk from the first time I set foot in it nearly thirty years ago to the present day. A lack of official support is part of that but even the world-shaking events it has had (the Wars being the major one) have maintained consistency with the original setting. Iuz is still the BBEG, the Great Kingdom remains a decadent (and now fractured) empire and the kingdoms of good struggle against these enemies and others as they always have.
It was also, as others have said, the first true campaign setting that I used although I flirted with using Krynn around the same time as the Dragonlance books were new and exciting at the time. I soon ditched Krynn though as there were too many things I didn't like (tinker gnomes and gully dwarves being top of the list). GH is the oldest and still the best.
I would add that the 1987 Forgotten Realms as the original pure setting is also a very good setting, but in the two and a half decades since publication it has become something very different for the reasons I've already mentioned.
I originally created a homebrew world. When I read the Greyhawk 83 boxed set I found myself incorporating parts of it into my homebrew. After many years of working on building my own game world it hit me. Why bring Greyhawk to my campaign? When I can bring my game into Greyhawk.
IMHO, the flavor of the setting just jived with my mojo. So that was the only reason I needed.
What a great topic. And just about everyone so far has mentioned a reason or three for loving Greyhawk.
Why do I love Greyhawk, foesaking all others for it? Well, he was my first. GH gave me just enough support, but never too much (as a DM). Greyhawk was never "cool", and always seemed a little retro. Don't ask me why, but that was also important to me when I was young.
Neither TSR nor WoC really screwed GH up too badly, (although some of the later products tried mightily) and it was never over-merchandised.
Let's not forget the maps. I have spent many an hour staring at them, day dreaming, plotting, and writing.
I have DMed campaigns in the FRealms, Planescape, (many)homebrew worlds , Eberron, Oathbound, and that's just DnD. All of those books and papers have passed through my fingers over the years - only the cream of my Greyhawk collection remains.
Lastly, there's YOU maniacs! I love that there's a community that still pumps out material; clarifies, collates and continues the Greyhawkedness with love and care.
(sorry, getting off soapbox.....NOW)
that's just my two drabs tho...
Greyhawk was also my first proper forray into AD&D. During my teens I played with the same character and in that time I got to discover the Flanaess alongside my druid and encounter names and places that now sound familiar but back then sounded strange and mysterious. Names mispelled in my notebooks (Oui-Jass & Zuggotamy hehe) that captured my imagination. Things I couldn't wait to learn more about. Some of my favourite memories of my adolescence involved adventuring in the WoG (usually ending in having to flee the dungeon uncompleted leaving a wake of disaster). I feel like I grew up with it. That's the main reason I love it so much, it's like a second home.
I also love how there is always more to learn, something new to speculate on and whilst there is so much material created over the years I've always felt welcomed by the setting to sod canon and make the world fit into my own vision. Something I've never felt with FR or Paizo's Golarion.
I also love the level of fantasy and reality in the setting and I love the passion and dedication that fans of Greyhawk still invest in the world that to me makes it very much more alive than any current settings.
i discovered the world of greyhawk late. Its been about a year. We played the classic modules when i was young but not really a campaign deal.
I love greyhawk because of the history. The fact that there are details waaaay back is great. I love the invoked devastation. i LOVE that i can't even remember the details of all the things i have read on the WoG.
She was my first, and will always be special. Plus, it's the only setting which is loose enough to let me decide what I want it to be...
-First, I tried a home brew based on the medieval world: The Keep on the Borderlands was based on a now submerged island in the North Atlantic. The problem is, if I got Vikings, then the Crusades and Mongols didn't make much sense.
Then, I tried a "prehistoric" Earth campaign, with all the different historical cultures in the Deities and Demigods book interacted. But how come everyone is using steel, etc, etc.
Then I got The Judge's Guild Blackmoor, and used that for a while.
Then my sister got me the Greyhawk Folio (the loose leaf with all the heraldry). I stayed with Blackmoor a while. I also read EGG's articles in the Dragon on "News From the Flaneass". I liked the military-politico angle. I already had T1 (Hommlet), so I decided to go with it...
Argon wrote:
I originally created a homebrew world. When I read the Greyhawk 83 boxed set I found myself incorporating parts of it into my homebrew. After many years of working on building my own game world it hit me. Why bring Greyhawk to my campaign? When I can bring my game into Greyhawk...
...then I marched the characters from (teh Flaneass) Blackmoor down to Hommlet, but they got killed along the way.
Oh well.
mortellan wrote:
...Second, I find Greyhawk infinitely interesting because the setting has a rich internal history that is constantly being studied and expanded upon by countless authors. For an average D&D game this stuff hardly matters but this meta-information taken as a whole is a shared scholarly pursuit that makes Greyhawk special.
...and...
Lanthorn wrote:
...I think that WoG has more depth in some ways with respect to the characterization of the campaign setting. However, this does not detract from the possibility of allowing people to add their own details and style, fleshing out various regions as they see fit. There is enough structure and form to give you a 'skeleton' without delineating each and every minor facet and detail...
-I always liked the idea of a "shared world", even though I've never had a player who played GH before joinging my campaign.
vestcoat wrote:
...Magic takes a backseat. GH gods, dragons, and wizards don't run around leveling kingdoms with meteor swarms...
-Well there was the ID/ROCF. But that was a while ago.
vestcoat wrote:
...The CoE has certainly been overused since the '98 relaunch and 3E, but GH wizards still generally have less influence and celebrity status than they do in DL and FR...
-Yeah, the CO8 thing never really did anything for me.
vestcoat wrote:
...The lack of product support. GH collecting has become a chore in recent years, but it didn't use to be. As a teenager with a tiny income in the early Nineties, GH was a lot more approachable than the barrage of $30 boxed sets FR had on the shelf...
-Actually, I wished there'd been a little more in the late 1980s. I wish I'd know that U1-U3 was part of the WOG.
vestcoat wrote:
...gritty realism, human-centric, and evil on the rise. Both the Folio and FtA paint a pretty bleak picture of the Flanaess, setting the stage for heroes better than a "high fantasy' world can, IMO...
-I thought the Folio/Box Set got it right, but that FTA overdid it.
Flint wrote:
...GH, throughout its history has remained internally consistent even when different authors have been involved. FR suffers greatly from the profusion of authors, both of game products and of novels who each feel the need to include their own take on certain areas (in the case of game products) and who have to introduce their own world-shaking plots (in the case of novels)...
-I think the Flaneass went in that direction with GH Wars and FTA. But IMC, that's still in the future, so we'll see.
mortellan wrote:
... First is the maps. I love maps of all kinds and an RPG setting map is always the first thing that grabs me. Back in school I probably knew the Darlene map as well as a map of the USA...
...and...
bugsy wrote:
...Let's not forget the maps. I have spent many an hour staring at them, day dreaming, plotting, and writing...
-The map observation is an odd one. The JG Blackmoor maps were on old-style paper and black and white, but I liked them (now MIA). I always assumed other campaigns had neat maps too. They don't?
-Well there was the ID/ROCF. But that was a while ago.
Exactly. The epic-level mages are mere background atmosphere in GH (at least prior to 3E). The twin cataclysms are referred to as the "awful, forgotten past" on the back of the '83 box and Slerotin was the last Mage of Power.
Quote:
-Actually, I wished there'd been a little more in the late 1980s. I wish I'd know that U1-U3 was part of the WOG.
Ditto. I was referring the Nineties when campaign setting competition was fierce. It's a real shame the late-Eighties GH product lineup died with Gygax's departure (Stoink, Shadowland, Castle Greyhawk, etc.).
jamesdglick wrote:
vestcoat wrote:
...gritty realism, human-centric, and evil on the rise. Both the Folio and FtA paint a pretty bleak picture of the Flanaess, setting the stage for heroes better than a "high fantasy' world can, IMO...
-I thought the Folio/Box Set got it right, but that FTA overdid it.
Technically, Wars is what overdid it. Sargent did a good job turning Grubb and Cook's mess into a fairly believable setting.
Still, while Wars deviated from Gygax's novels and Dragon articles, much of it is a logical progression of the Folio. Gains for Iuz and the SB were inevitable. Iuz had only just returned in 570 and his armies were finally "ready to march" in the Folio. For an evil demi-god to conquer two good-aligned lands (the Shield Lands and Tenh) isn't much of a stretch. Likewise, it's fair to assume the SB would see some kind of payoff, having spent decades laying their plans and avoiding detection.
Where Wars went too far was the GK and the Giant Troubles. Lolth's "sharp check" was more or less canonized and players were assumed to have completed GDQ1-7 successfully, so a sudden giant resurgence doesn't make sense. Meanwhile, flooding the GK with undead princes is kind of ridiculous. Fortunately, I'm partial to really bleak settings like Blackmoor, Hyperborea, and FtA.
I didn't know what was going on with TSR, et al. politically, etc. but it broke my heart a little bit when I saw the Bandit Kingdoms and Blackmoor being neglected and almost abandoned. They were a big part of what drew me into the Greyhawk setting. I always looked for more canon, more development - always to be disappointed.
Bitter tears were wept.
But like I've stated before, that's why I love this site!
I too like the 'bleaker' campaign settings, Vestcoat.
...Where Wars went too far was the GK and the Giant Troubles. Lolth's "sharp check" was more or less canonized and players were assumed to have completed GDQ1-7 successfully, so a sudden giant resurgence doesn't make sense.
-I think the assumption was that GDQ1-7 would begin in CY 585 (rather than 577 or 578), and that the adventurers' success would be what breaks the conspiracy.
vestcoat wrote:
...Meanwhile, flooding the GK with undead princes is kind of ridiculous...
-That's not one of the things that really bothered me, although I guess it could get ridiculous. Hmmm... time to create an Animus thread...
-I think the assumption was that GDQ1-7 would begin in CY 585 (rather than 577 or 578), and that the adventurers' success would be what breaks the conspiracy.
If one is to believe Dungeon #117-119, the original GDQ series took place in 576 CY. In Against the Giants: The Liberation of Geoff, the second invasion was a separate event masterminded by a cabal of cloud giants rather than Eclavdra (reusing some of the same modules, but leading into G4-G6 rather than D1-D3).
The original invasion was stopped when Frush O'Suggil and company (or the PCs) sacked the Eilservs estates in 576, resulting in the temporary downfall of that house. They also dealt a check against Lolth in that year, removing the "Black Bubble" she built around Istivin.
It seems that the second invasion had drow involvement as well, this time with Lolth rather than a priestess of the Elder Elemental God in charge, though drow support of the giants ended circa 585 CY, when Lolth gave up her surface holdings to deal with a civil war in Erelhei-Cinlu. The Liberation of Geoff begins in 591 CY, with the PCs only having to deal with the giants to end the occupation in the Grand Duchy.
Where it gets overcomplicated, in my opinion, is with Q1, where the PCs are expected to take down Lolth even though she had nothing to do with the initial invasion (which was a plot by the rebel matriarch Eclavdra). It's believable that Lolth knew a good thing when she saw it and decided to appropriate Eclavdra's scheme (which helps explain why Eclavdra got back in her good graces later on), but the sequence of events would make more sense if Lolth was involved only with the second giant invasion, not the first. Or you could ignore Lolth's involvement in the second invasion, since it didn't ultimately come to anything anyway.
But I suppose her check in the Abyss was why she needed the help of the Sakhut cloud giants rather than being able to create another black bubble and managing everything herself. Drow involvement in the second invasion was subtle and didn't require the direct intervention of a demon queen.
Last edited by rasgon on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
-I think the assumption was that GDQ1-7 would begin in CY 585 (rather than 577 or 578), and that the adventurers' success would be what breaks the conspiracy.
If we're going to talk about assumptions, GDQ should start no later than 576 because they were among the first GH products ever produced, they were referenced in the Folio, and early gamers played them before any other GH adventures.
Officially, G1-3 takes place in 576-580 according to Liberation of Geoff (2). I think it should be left there. The Giants series has been shuttlecocked and retconned to the point of absurdity. Gygax placed G1-3 before ToEE (T1-4 p29), Cook and Grubb reversed the order (GDQ), Moore was strangely silent (TAB), Ru Emerson starts G1 in 585, Reynolds, despite his official statement, threw out the drow connection and encouraged readers to replay the series in 591, and the LGG authors make no mention of giant troubles prior to 584. There's even a Rose Estes' version of the story.
I'm not saying I don't like the invasion of Geoff and Sterich - it works well IMC - just that it wasn't a logical development and I can see why Gygax purists didn't like Wars.
...The original invasion was stopped when Frush O'Suggil and company (or the PCs) sacked the Eilservs estates in 576, resulting in the temporary downfall of that house. They also dealt a check against Lolth in that year, removing the "Black Bubble" she built around Istivin...
-Uh, "Black Bubble"? The only reference to something like that was (IIRC) in the Yeomanry, and it was [please don't throw rocks! ]... a Rose Estes novel...
Is there any other canonical reference to this Sterich Black Bubble?
-Uh, "Black Bubble"? The only reference to something like that was (IIRC) in the Yeomanry, and it was [please don't throw rocks! ]... a Rose Estes novel...
Is there any other canonical reference to this Sterich Black Bubble?
Rose Estes was working directly from the Queen of the Spiders supermodule. Which is where I'd say the GDQ saga went off the rails, except Q1 already made it go off the rails. The original Gygax modules hold up as a coherent story, but Q1 and later not so much.
Anyway, this is Queen of the Spiders, page 14:
Queen of the Spiders wrote:
The PCs see what has happened to Istivin from several miles away. Where the towers of the Earl’s citadel should rise, there is instead a large, ebony sphere, as if a god had taken the city and left in its place a huge black pearl. As the characters approach, they see that the hemisphere cuts through the city around the citadel like a knife, and buildings are literally cut in two by the perimeter of the black bubble.
And here's Dungeon #117:
Greg A. Vaughan and Erik Mona wrote:
Then, eighteen years ago [from 594 CY], Istivin fell under attack from a wholly unanticipated opponent - Lolth, Demon Queen of Spiders. An immense black hemisphere of eldritch energy appeared over Krelont Keep and much of the city's central square, completely cutting off the government and constabulary housed within. Brave citizens were able to cross through the energy barrier, but none returned from its inky depths. Worse, the hemisphere expanded slowly, every day engulfing more of the city.
For completeness, this is how Rose Estes told the story:
The Eyes Have It wrote:
Two of the great noble houses of Erelhei-Cinlu broke away from their fellow nobles, and in an attempt to extend their power over the surface world, they began to encourage chaos in the world above by sending frost and hill giants to raid and ravage the contryside. Lolth allowed this minor defection to occur, for she had plans of her own - no less than the invasion of oerth itself - and the drows' activities would serve as cover for her own evil actions. Lolth dwelt on one of the many planes of the Abyss and used her power as ruler of that shadowy realm to attack worlds on the Material Plane itself. Many had fallen to her power, and it was her plan to add the world of Greyhawk to her collection. Lolth's methods for gathering a world to her cause began with spinning a web, weaving a bridge between her abysmal plane and a point on Oerth - in this case, the unfortunate city of Istivin, capital city of the kingdom of Sterich. The web took on the appearance of a giant black bubble, which completely enveloped the city and opened a gateway between the two worlds, allowing the servants of Lolth - spiders, drows, bugbears, orcs, goblins, giants, vampires, and other undead - to move freely.
For me, it was the intentionally unfinished manner in which Gary wrote the setting. Greyhawk always beckons you to dig a little deeper, explore a little more, look around the next corner - all of this using the lens of your imagination. No other fantasy world, any genre, has done it as well for me (with, perhaps, the exception of the early versions of Tamriel from the TES CRPGs Arena and Daggerfall).
As a result I've learned to write (more or less - anyone who has ever proofread my stuff could make a case for less ), learned to DM, learned to map, learned how to desktop publish (pdfs, word processor files and small spreadsheets in Excell, mainly), learned a bit about politics, economics, warfare, history, math, geography, mythology, art - all because of Oerth.
That sense of "more, more, there's always more to discover" has kept me hooked since I first read through the boxed set (when I should have been doing high school homework) back in 1983. Probably always will.
_________________ <div>Braggi, Swain and Varlet at Large<br /></div>
-Uh, "Black Bubble"? The only reference to something like that was (IIRC) in the Yeomanry, and it was [please don't throw rocks! ]... a Rose Estes novel...
Is there any other canonical reference to this Sterich Black Bubble?
Rose Estes was working directly from the Queen of the Spiders supermodule. Which is where I'd say the GDQ saga went off the rails, except Q1 already made it go off the rails. The original Gygax modules hold up as a coherent story, but Q1 and later not so much.
Anyway, this is Queen of the Spiders, page 14:
Queen of the Spiders wrote:
The PCs see what has happened to Istivin from several miles away. Where the towers of the Earl’s citadel should rise, there is instead a large, ebony sphere, as if a god had taken the city and left in its place a huge black pearl. As the characters approach, they see that the hemisphere cuts through the city around the citadel like a knife, and buildings are literally cut in two by the perimeter of the black bubble.
And here's Dungeon #117:
Greg A. Vaughan and Erik Mona wrote:
Then, eighteen years ago [from 594 CY], Istivin fell under attack from a wholly unanticipated opponent - Lolth, Demon Queen of Spiders. An immense black hemisphere of eldritch energy appeared over Krelont Keep and much of the city's central square, completely cutting off the government and constabulary housed within. Brave citizens were able to cross through the energy barrier, but none returned from its inky depths. Worse, the hemisphere expanded slowly, every day engulfing more of the city.
For completeness, this is how Rose Estes told the story:
The Eyes Have It wrote:
Two of the great noble houses of Erelhei-Cinlu broke away from their fellow nobles, and in an attempt to extend their power over the surface world, they began to encourage chaos in the world above by sending frost and hill giants to raid and ravage the contryside. Lolth allowed this minor defection to occur, for she had plans of her own - no less than the invasion of oerth itself - and the drows' activities would serve as cover for her own evil actions. Lolth dwelt on one of the many planes of the Abyss and used her power as ruler of that shadowy realm to attack worlds on the Material Plane itself. Many had fallen to her power, and it was her plan to add the world of Greyhawk to her collection. Lolth's methods for gathering a world to her cause began with spinning a web, weaving a bridge between her abysmal plane and a point on Oerth - in this case, the unfortunate city of Istivin, capital city of the kingdom of Sterich. The web took on the appearance of a giant black bubble, which completely enveloped the city and opened a gateway between the two worlds, allowing the servants of Lolth - spiders, drows, bugbears, orcs, goblins, giants, vampires, and other undead - to move freely.
-Dungeon #117 is recent, but I read (didn't won) Q1 in the mid-1980s. Must have missed that paragraph.
But other than that, you'd think it's the sort of thing that would get a mention in the various country listing (FTA, Advaenture Begins, LG Gazeteer). Oh well. Now I know!
I agree with the sentiment expressed here, particularly with Braggi, but will add my .02 anyhow. Like a well-written novel, or a well done movie, Greyhawk is deep...literary...in scope. What the authors wrote, didn't write, but left open, spoke to the deliberateness in the craft behind Greyhawk (for example The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth comes to mind). The creators of Greyhawk were genius in my estimation, as were those who later applied the same level of attention to detail and deliberateness in expanding the original work. Not that the other settings are terrible, but Greyhawk is the gold standard.
... Meanwhile, flooding the GK with undead princes is kind of ridiculous.
[quote="jamesdglick"-That's not one of the things that really bothered me, although I guess it could get ridiculous. Hmmm... time to create an Animus thread... [/quote]
Lanthorn wrote:
FOUND IT!
After making a successful Research proficiency check (and consulting my own copy of Sargent's Ivid the Undying, no mean feat given its great length), I found the following information on page 32:
"There are no more than 40 or so animus creatures in
Aerdy, and Ivid has been told by Baalzephon that he can
spare few wishes from his pit fiends to create more."
Hope this grants me enough XP to gain another level, increasing towards GreySage status.
-Lanthorn, a Mere Grandmaster
...but they do get a disproportionate amount of press...
*Magic takes a backseat. GH gods, dragons, and wizards don't run around leveling kingdoms with meteor swarms. Other than Iuz, nations rise and fall through the strength of their wits, armies, and politics, not their magic. The CoE has certainly been overused since the '98 relaunch and 3E, but GH wizards still generally have less influence and celebrity status than they do in DL and FR.
*The lack of product support. GH collecting has become a chore in recent years, but it didn't use to be. As a teenager with a tiny income in the early Nineties, GH was a lot more approachable than the barrage of $30 boxed sets FR had on the shelf. The absence of a corporate profit margin also sheltered GH from needless expansions like Mazteca and the constant the overhauls and world-changing events inflicted upon FR.
*Great homebrew. The lack of official support sparked excellent fan works, from Oerth Journal, to Dungeon Magazine, to Living Greyhawk.
*The history. From classic modules to the names of its characters, GH is inextricably linked to the roots of D&D.
*Great writers. Most settings have one or two. GH has been blessed with three visionaries (Gygax, Sargent, Moore) plus a vanguard of incredible supporters: Kuntz, Mona, Weining, Mentzer, Lakofka, Pramas, Talanian, etc.
*Flavor: gritty realism, human-centric, and evil on the rise. Both the Folio and FtA paint a pretty bleak picture of the Flanaess, setting the stage for heroes better than a "high fantasy' world can, IMO.
It's as though Vestcoat reached in my mind and pulled out my answer.
I'm ½ saddened he beat me to it and I'm ½ pleased he saved me so much typing.
Well done!
- D _________________ Quoted material has been reproduced in this post without express permission for the purposes of discussion, comment and review as permitted by Section 107 of the U.S. Copyright Act of 1976.
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