OK, I went through the threads, and didn't see one about Celene. My party is there now, actually just reached the capital. I've basically just gone with Anna's map, using some google searches to try and figure out what some of the entries are.
My question is, has anyone developed Celene at all? I have decided to use a pic of the city of Tirion for the Enstad. I also changed the name to Enerrestad (it's a variation on the elven words for There! and lone. I thought it would be a fitting name for the last city of the elves, and also could reasonably have been shorted by humans to Enstad.
Anyway, it's daunting trying to do justice to the land of the elves. I'm pulling some things from other campaigns, Alfeim, Middle-Earth, whatever it takes. I just was wondering, am I missing anything done around here?
I thought there may have been an older Oerth Journal article about Celene, or perhaps some information from the much older AOL postings DECADES ago. Maybe someone has those on file and can share. In the meantime, I will delve in my personal stack of materials and see what I can unearth.
In the meantime, if you have it, use the LGG description of Celene. I've found it far more comprehensive than most materials about this mysterious, magical land.
OK, I went through the threads, and didn't see one about Celene. My party is there now, actually just reached the capital. I've basically just gone with Anna's map, using some google searches to try and figure out what some of the entries are...
-In the second Gord book (Artifact of Evil?), Gords party goes through Celene, meets some of the court, and gets a free ride from the Royal Hippogriffs (or whatever the unit was called it was called...).
IIRC, other than the court, Celene was fairly mundane.
Ragnar, what kinds of information would you like to know? I have LGG, the original boxed set, and From the Ashes, all of which have information about Celene.
-Lanthorn
Last edited by Lanthorn on Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:25 am; edited 1 time in total
I've always intended to use a cross between Alfheim, which you've mentioned, and Kyonin from Golarion. It's my standard approach in Greyhawk where areas are poorly developed in canon and one of the things I love about the setting. I get to drop in other cool material wherever there are gaps without erasing canon material.
I have all those sources. Sorry, LGG too. I was thinking you meant one of the LG websites, which I couldn't find. Anyway, it's working out ok.
Had an interesting thing happen. The dark elf IMC, she ended up revealing herself in the throne room as she knelt before Yolande and all the Celene court. She had been using illusions to disguise her true nature. Here's what happened.
First, she had been the one to return the weapons and armor of the long dead noble. They found it when they killed the dragon, Caustichlorinus. Then she offered her sword, Maerthorlear, to the elves. I was actually rather stunned by that one! Then she revealed herself.
I spent a few hours considering this, before I finally posted reactions. I had the entire court erupt into chaos. The queen's guard hustled her off like the secret service would do to the president. The elves then took the dark elf prisoner, putting her in the dungeons, while the rest of the party was detained.
the player was pissed, going with a "no good deed goes unpunished" kind of bitter reaction. I tried to explain that, you have to understand the way elves would react. There's no real-life equivalent to the animosity between elves and dark elves. She's lucky she wasn't killed on sight.
So, my question is, does such a reaction seem warranted? She is a good drow, which perhaps none of these elves, even with lifespans over 1000 years old, have ever run across yet. I just wondered how you guys would handle the situation.
Great reaction and not overt either. What the player needs to remember the hatred goes on for thousands of years (something that as a human we cannot comprehend) I would love to find out what happens with regards to the rest of the parties time in Celene.
Several years ago I had a drow PC who had infiltrated a good group of adventurers to gain information for Llolth (players were doing t1-8 then GDQ) Things git really out of hand when one of the male elf characters started to have feelings for our dark skinned spy, very interesting.
I think the good drow player did exactly what they thought was right offer the treasure and so forth to the only elven kingdon in GH. Took guts (make them sweat for a bit but this should be rewarded)
Ragnar, I think you played it 'realistically' too. As Rockhaven noted, the hatred between surface elves and drow stems from an ages' old racial, even religious, war. Perhaps the elves don't even know any more, and that loathing is passed down through the generations through tales and folklore. For those elves who HAVE warred against the drow, it is MUCH more personal.
We can turn to real life and world events for a parallel analogy. The battles between the Muslims and Christians during the Crusades, for instance (some would cite recent events as well), the battles between Protestants and Catholics, the battles in Gaza, and so on and so forth.
How would a Christian King (Richard the Lionheart, for example) react to a disguised Saracen in his court if said Saracen laid down his arms, bowing respectfully, offered an item of great worth, then revealed his 'infidel' nature?
You get my point, no doubt.
I think the player acted VERY nobly, in the same vein as a Heironean paladin, but perhaps NOT very wisely. There is a difference.
I don't think the player's PC should die...at least not yet, depending on how it unfolds, and I think you should offer a 'way out' over the next few campaign sessions. However, this should be a learning lesson, both personally, and in terms of elvish culture, racial/religious intolerance, and the like.
For the time being, have the drow elf AND her allies imprisoned and interrogated. The Celenian elves should NOT take this at face value. Drow are notorious for their evil and their cunning. The surface elves should expect this ALL to be a ruse to lull them, perhaps a prelude to a drow elven plot (to kill the Queen? a surface raid? something else more sinister?). Let them use mundane and magical means to interrogate the drow elf (torture for last resort, though maybe a sadistic elf may think it 'OK' to harm the drow), to question, divine, and delve into the TRUTH. I suggest using ESP, Detect Lie, Know Alignment, and everything at your disposal. They won't fathom that there IS such a thing as a "Good" drow elf...that just goes against ages of tradition, folklore, religious preaching, and experience!
Perhaps after all that, have the allies of the drow released UNDER guard. Maybe not the drow...at least, not at first. Then have the drow PROVE herself to the surface elves...adventure hook. I'd go with something that pits her against her own race, to SHOW the surface elves her 'true nature'. Betray the dark elves?
Although I hate citing Forgotten Realms...look to Salvatore's Drizzt character and ALL the racism he faced, still faces, not just from humans, but EVERYONE. Then imagine how surface elves regard him! Only 'recently' had he earned their respect and friendship. And that took him YEARS, perhaps decades.
Good popst there Lanthorn ( I was going to mention the Drizzt series but I have already damned myself elsewhere talking aboiut FR)
I have personally had fun playing a good drow, when I say fun the sessions were very intense roleplaying and almost soul searching something akinto a playing a Jedi who knows the power is only a step away with the darkside. My drow knew everything would be so much easier if he just returned to his the stero typical drow.
The roleplaying challenges are emense and often difficult but definately worth the battle (assuming the player of the drow is up to some very nasty sessions).
Just to mix it up a bit further, but isn't one of the Queens closest advisors a follower of lolth?
Maybe she could help the drow escape, but would not want to risk her cover. Or she could blame the drow for some recent event that could have led to her capture etc.
Just to mix it up a bit further, but isn't one of the Queens closest advisors a follower of lolth?
Maybe she could help the drow escape, but would not want to risk her cover. Or she could blame the drow for some recent event that could have led to her capture etc.
Adding to this, an evil drow spy would actually be very keen to foil the good drow PC's plans. Thus, any drow spy in Queen Yolanda's court would seek to frame the PC for crimes or plans against the surface elves. Could lead to a much more difficult situation for said PC and his or her companions.
Next, I'll support Lanthorn's suggestions on how the surface elves would treat the drow. Their suspicion would simply be too great to take anything the drow said as truth. After subjecting the drow PC and his/her companions to every magical divination available to her court wizards and clerics, Queen Yolanda still would not release the drow PC without first subjecting her to a very powerful, and deadly, Geas/Quest - one that would spell the drow's death immediately if s/he ever betrayed the surface elves, lied to them, or looked at them cross-eyed.
As another real-world example of such hatred, I'll point out that many of the Americans fighting the Japanese in the Pacific in WWII despised, and even loathed, the Japanese during and after the war. The atrocities they saw their fellow soldiers, sailors, and marines subjected to by their Japanese counterparts was too much for many of them to overcome and forgive. I know this because both of my grandfathers fought there and it was something they couldn't describe and to this day don't want to befriend the nation of Japan. They just don't trust them to have changed. Though this is difficult for my younger generation to understand, I can see how it would apply to elven attitudes toward the drow.
Finally, as I mentioned in Dwimmerlied's post, I suggest that you check out the adventure, Thiondar's Legacy in Dungeon Magazine #30, if you have access to it. It details the history, including the origin, of the Grey Elves. It is not Greyhawk canon, but it may be considered apocrypha.
SX, your grandfathers and one of mine (mom's dad, who fought in the Pacific) had the same, identical mindsets for nearly identical reasons. My grandmother once told me my grandfather would've killed any Japanese person, be it man, woman, or child, during the War, if he thought that person posed a threat. No questions asked. Your analogy was superb in comparing how surface elves and drow likely perceive each other.
Offhand, I don't recall any elf serving Lolth who is on the Queen's Council or Court. I do remember that her main advisor is Onselven, though I don't remember if he is a mage or not. I know she is (13th lvl ability, with minor fighter experience).
However, there is an NPC who is mentioned, hailing from Celene, with strong political and status ties, who could serve as the perfect nemesis and manipulator from behind the scenes, or even up close and personal, while hiding his true agenda. Iuz has a Celenian, half-elven mage (13th lvl after the Wars) named Sunifarel Brightrobe who is one of his deadly agents, a member of the Boneshadow. See page 90 in Iuz the Evil. He'd make a perfect villain for your game, and not as predictable as a drow elf in cognito. Sunifarel could try to use the PCs to his own ends, of course after he's 'helped' them out of their predicament, perhaps using this renegade drow elf to do some of his own dirty work looking for artifacts or relics that Sunifarel could then appropriate for the Old One. Just a thought. I always enjoy Machiavellian plots, and if the PCs never discover the 'true' nature of your enemy, all the better.
I was honestly surprised when Isilme didn't sprout a dozen arrows and a few fireball scars. But I was also very gratified to see restraint shown. She had acted very honorably before "unveiling". But Ragnar is a far more merciful DM than I.
And yes, in the short time I've been playing in Ragnar's game, he's proven to be a very competent, thorough and thoughtful DM.
I am a bit of a pack rat and when I find something interesting I save it.
An article "A VISION OF CELENE - From: QSamantha" had the following:-
Sethrine Morin Qualesse, Fey Lady of Celene, is the daughter of one of Celene's most noted households. She is politically powerful, extremely savvy and a loyal supporter of Queen Yolande's policies. She is aware of Yolande's plan to make Celene a Fading Land and supports her fully.
Secretly, the Lady Sethrine is also a Yellow Priestess of Lolth. The Yellow Priestesses are half-Drow that appear little different from grey elves and can operate without penalty in full sunlight. They foolishly believe that their service to Lolth will win them favour equal to that of full Drow. There is much antagonism between the Yellow Priestesses and Lolth's Drowish priestesses. Acting on Lolth's behalf, Sethrine fully intends for Celene to become a demi-plane, but one ruled by the Yellow Priestesses. Thus, she betrays Yolande and corrupts her spells. In turn, she will be betrayed by Lolth when the deed is done.
This is my reference to the drow spy within Celene. It may not be canon but it sets up a lot of opportunities for events in Celene.
Ragnar, I also think your reaction to the throne room drama was well played. I know some DMs would have that character peppered with arrows or some other fatal ending to the PC but I think the most important thing to remember is the enjoyment of the game for the player. They went out on a limb to provide a great roleplaying moment. Such a moment shouldn't see the player punished.
I agree that the enmity of the drow and the elves is so deep it is on a level far greater than humans could understand. The Hateful Wars prove that the elves are capable of great hatred and malice in their self-righteousness. Such hatred is easier to sustain when the enemy is considered wicked and vile as the drow are but the presence of a good drow, now that throws a spanner in the works. The Elven Court is probably already aware of such folk but they can't afford for it to be made known and your PC made such a public display of this fact Yolande is in a difficult situation. Even if she accepts your PC is good of heart, she cannot be seen to be weak and allow the PC to live. Her people just wouldn't understand.
However, what if strings were pulled and your PC allowed to escape. Yolande herself or a sympathetic member of her Court, hoping one day offer the few good drow an alternative from their harsh lives, could arrange for this to happen. The blade returned and the PC even given a private token of thanks for her noble deed but an explanation of why this can never be public. Publicly, the PC has escaped but was shot down on the borders of Celene, the drow threat ended, privately the PC leaves with the recognition of a noble deed and a great bit of roleplaying.
However, what if strings were pulled and your PC allowed to escape. Yolande herself or a sympathetic member of her Court, hoping one day offer the few good drow an alternative from their harsh lives, could arrange for this to happen. The blade returned and the PC even given a private token of thanks for her noble deed but an explanation of why this can never be public. Publicly, the PC has escaped but was shot down on the borders of Celene, the drow threat ended, privately the PC leaves with the recognition of a noble deed and a great bit of roleplaying.
+1. I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps Melf has an ally in the court that will secretly aid the imprisoned PC. In the long term, the drow shouldn't be punished for doing a good deed and a daring bit of roleplaying, but you handled the immediate consequences well. It kind of reminds me of Gord's imprisonment in Knurl.
BTW, what kind of magic was the drow using to disguise herself? Long-lived elves in Celene's court may have intelligence high enough to see through low-level illusions.
Well, she's also a 9th level song-mage (very illusion-based) so her illusions aren't so easily pierced. This is especially true when she keeps them simple. In fact, that's my Illusion house rule: KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid!
Finally, as I mentioned in Dwimmerlied's post, I suggest that you check out the adventure, Thiondar's Legacy in Dungeon Magazine #30, if you have access to it. It details the history, including the origin, of the Grey Elves. It is not Greyhawk canon, but it may be considered apocrypha.
SirXaris
That's an interesting adventure. I'd probably run it with Beryl as Verbobonc and Rigodruok standing in for the Valley of the Ch'thar (although Rigodruok has an artificial sun warming it, so it isn't just the Stone of Gul keeping things toasty).
The story is a bit like the origin of Tolkien's Sindar, in which an elven clan seeking the West (equivalent to the Spindrifts of Oerth or the realm beyond the Moonarch of Sehanine?) stalled in their journey when their king became distracted (in Tolkien's tale, by a beautiful Maia; in Dungeon #30, by an accursed Giantish artifact), some of them continuing on their journey, while others remained with their king. I can imagine something like that as an explanation for the founding of Celene.
...For the time being, have the drow elf AND her allies imprisoned and interrogated. The Celenian elves should NOT take this at face value. Drow are notorious for their evil and their cunning. The surface elves should expect this ALL to be a ruse to lull them, perhaps a prelude to a drow elven plot (to kill the Queen? a surface raid? something else more sinister?). Let them use mundane and magical means to interrogate the drow elf (torture for last resort, though maybe a sadistic elf may think it 'OK' to harm the drow), to question, divine, and delve into the TRUTH. I suggest using ESP, Detect Lie, Know Alignment, and everything at your disposal...
...and...
SirXaris wrote:
...Next, I'll support Lanthorn's suggestions on how the surface elves would treat the drow. Their suspicion would simply be too great to take anything the drow said as truth. After subjecting the drow PC and his/her companions to every magical divination available to her court wizards and clerics, Queen Yolanda still would not release the drow PC without first subjecting her to a very powerful, and deadly, Geas/Quest - one that would spell the drow's death immediately if s/he ever betrayed the surface elves, lied to them, or looked at them cross-eyed...
-Agree, but the interrogators will be aware that there are ways around "Know Alignment", "ESP", etc.
Ultimately, they'll decide that the other PCs are (at worst) dupes and fools and let them go (with or without grudging rewards).
This could take a while. Elves are patient. Very patient.
Lanthorn wrote:
... They won't fathom that there IS such a thing as a "Good" drow elf...that just goes against ages of tradition, folklore, religious preaching, and experience!
-This I'll disagree with.
There must be precedence in the Flaneass for a good Drow (I do IMC, anyway). Even if there isn't IYC, there is precent on other worlds. Now, your typical Elf might not be privy to that sort of knowledge, but Yolande and her advisors will.
AvalonAB wrote:
...An article "A VISION OF CELENE - From: QSamantha" had the following:-
Sethrine Morin Qualesse, Fey Lady of Celene, is the daughter of one of Celene's most noted households. She is politically powerful, extremely savvy and a loyal supporter of Queen Yolande's policies. She is aware of Yolande's plan to make Celene a Fading Land and supports her fully.
Secretly, the Lady Sethrine is also a Yellow Priestess of Lolth. The Yellow Priestesses are half-Drow that appear little different from grey elves and can operate without penalty in full sunlight. They foolishly believe that their service to Lolth will win them favour equal to that of full Drow. There is much antagonism between the Yellow Priestesses and Lolth's Drowish priestesses. Acting on Lolth's behalf, Sethrine fully intends for Celene to become a demi-plane, but one ruled by the Yellow Priestesses. Thus, she betrays Yolande and corrupts her spells. In turn, she will be betrayed by Lolth when the deed is done.
This is my reference to the drow spy within Celene. It may not be canon but it sets up a lot of opportunities for events in Celene...
-Even if not canon, Qualesse (or some other Drow) could have inflitrated the court.
AvalonAB wrote:
...Maybe she could help the drow escape, but would not want to risk her cover...
-Why?
Drow generally don't help Drow from other factions. Now, what does Qualesse do? Probably try to use her contacts to figure out who this is. Who does this Drow (Isilime? as per Bugsy) really serve? Is she really good?
AvalonAB wrote:
...Or she could blame the drow for some recent event that could have led to her capture etc...
-That could work, although Qualesse might realize that that might end up being a Wile E Coyote if she gets caught faking evidence.
What is Qualesse's WIS score?
More thoughts, once everyone takes a breath:
1) It might finally dawn on someone that if Isilme were really trying to infliltrate the court, then publicly revealing herself to be a Drow would have been a tad counter-productive. Now, the paranoid (including Yolande's security) might decide that it is a high-risk gambit to throw them off, but even they should start to wonder, particularly once it's pointed out that good Drow do exist (on other planes, at least);
2) Yolande's security is going to start wondering who else has slipped through, and start re-doing the background checks. Things might get hot for Qualesse.
The thing she has going for her, other than her own actions, is that one of the party members KNOWS Queen Yolande. He saved her life, rescuing her in the past (in another campaign decades ago). Since the queen trusts him, she is more inclined to trust Isilme. That wasn't enough though. She ended up having Isilme's sword brought out, as it is an ancient elven blade from the time of the wars with Vecna. It's abilities are well known, especially how it merges mentally with it wielder.
When she went to ask the blade about Isilme, well, let me post what happened.
Or you can wait for a few months until I get that far in my campaign journals! No?, ok.
***
From Ragnar's campaign:
Paresval leaves to retrieve Maerthorlear, while Dothmar speaks to the Queen. "Your Majesty," he says. "We have studied the auras; we have searched for deceit. Even the Sulrigsarn finds nothing. What can a sword tell us?"
"Maerthorlear is not just any sword," says Onselvon. "It was crafted by Fendome of the City of Summer Stars and wielded by Lanthuion Sharondalan, Captain of Erieadan during the 400 Years War. Forged from the finest Ithilnaur, that most rare metal, it was one of the most powerful blades ever created. It is said that upon his death, the very soul of Lanthuion merged with Maerthorlear, to carry on the fight against Vecna and his hordes."
He walks over to Isilme and the others, talking to them, as if the elves do not need to hear the rest. He continues, "Though Vecna's accursed empire eventually crumbled under its own evil weight, Erieadan and all the other cities of our kin were lost forever; only Celene remained. With their loss, Maerthorlear fell into our care, or more appropriately we into its. The heroes who wielded Maerthorlear were many, but it only revealed its true powers to those few whom it chose. Though many could serve Maerthorlear, it would only serve the worthy. You see, it..."
He is interrupted by Parseval, who returns with Maerthorlear, still in the dragon-bone scabbard carved from the leg of Caustichlorinus. He brings the sword over to Onselvon, who shakes his head, pointing to the Queen. Parseval brings Maerthorlear to Queen Yolande, whoh reverently takes it in two hands.
"A fitting scabbard," she says, looking at the intricate etchings. She glances at Vaddara, "I see the skills of your kin in these carvings," she says. She then smiles. "A fitting scabbard for such a wonderous weapon."
As Vaddara blushes slightly, the Queen pays her no more heed. Slowly, deliberately, she draws Maerthorlear from the sheath and strides towards Isilme. She points the blade at Isilme. "Now, we shall know the truth."
Suddenly, there is a flash between Isilme and the Queen, emanating from Maerthorlear and brilliant beyond even that of the sun. All in the room turn from it, shielding their eyes. Even the Queen puts a hand over her face, blocking out the blinding light. Slowly it fades, and as you blink your eyes, coaxing them to see again, you are stunned by the vision before you. An angelic elf stands, hovering in the air between the Queen and Isilme, its wings stretch nearly 20' across, and it's brilliance makes it difficult to look upon, yet its awesome righteousness is beyond anything any have ever seen. Even the Queen is shocked, as she rocks back, stumbling to one knee before its angelic glory.
"Maerthorlear is not just any sword," says Onselvon. "It was crafted by Fendome of the City of Summer Stars and wielded by Lanthuion Sharondalan, Captain of Erieadan during the 400 Years War. Forged from the finest Ithilnaur, that most rare metal, it was one of the most powerful blades ever created. It is said that upon his death, the very soul of Lanthuion merged with Maerthorlear, to carry on the fight against Vecna and his hordes."
They found it when they killed the dragon, Caustichlorinus.
Just wanted to say, great name for a (what I'm assuming is green) dragon.
You are correct. I forget where, but that dragon is mentioned in print...either in an Oerth Journal or some other rather obscure reference, and it mentions the dragon took the body of the dead elf warrior along with his potent magical blade...
They found it when they killed the dragon, Caustichlorinus.
Just wanted to say, great name for a (what I'm assuming is green) dragon.
You are correct. I forget where, but that dragon is mentioned in print...either in an Oerth Journal or some other rather obscure reference, and it mentions the dragon took the body of the dead elf warrior along with his potent magical blade...
-Lanthorn
Yes, I made it up. You saw it in print in the Oerth Journal, in my Verbobonc article.
Actually, he turned out to be a black/green hybrid. His breath weapon was a cloud of poisonous gas which had corrosive properties. So what would happen was the following. First, the gas cloud did its normal damage. Then those hit by it would be affected as if by a Melf's Acid Arrow spell. It would do 2d4 damage for two rounds, or 1d4 if the target made its original save vs. breath weapon. Further, all items in the cloud had to save vs. acid! Needless to say, the party REALLY didn't like fighting him!
Ragnar, did you ever peruse the Draconomicon and the passages therein about crossing various dragon species?
I am interested how this all unfolds with respect to your PC drow elf and the Celenian court. You are obviously a very introspective, thoughtful (in terms of planning and details ), and adept DM.
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Maybe someone has those on file and can share. In the meantime, I will delve in my personal stack of materials and see what I can unearth.
