GreyhawkGrognard runs with the ball and scores big on the topic of how Tsojcanth fits in better with the TOEE and Forgotten Temple. Check it out and give some thoughts...
There's some intriguing stuff from Mike Kasparian's "22 Questions on Tharizdun" interview with Gary Gygax from a while back on the one of various Gh mailing lists. Some excerpts that might be relevant:
(Note: "Q"=Scott, "A"=Gary)
Q: Who exactly, was Tsojcanth? (Some speculations: a Suel Mage of Power, an Elven arch-mage, a Suel Mage of Power trained by the Elves, an evil/good Conjurer/Summoner).
A: Once more, I have no file of data dealing with Tsojcanth. I imagined him as one of the exceptionally potent magic-wielders who arise amongst humans every so often. I considered him the channel used by the Good deities for the further abridgement of the actual Tharizdun, as it were. Tsojcanth and a circle of other mages of good alignment, and certainly others of like persuasion and other capacities, assailed and defeated the followers of the avatar Tharizdun, and then by sympathetic means, and empowered by deity power, Tsojcanth (and his associated mages lending their power to him so as he could survive channeling of deity energies) forced the avatar Tharizdun to rejoin its parent entity.
I did not identify Tsojcanth as to race, but I think he was more likely Flan or Oeridian than a Suloise. He was certainly human and of Good alignment.
Perhaps to better convey the matter, there should be a distinction between the entity imprisoning and the chief avatar imprisoning - greater and lesser, if you will.
Q: What are the approximate dates, or at least the rough period of time, during which Tsojcanth was active in the Flanaess?
A: I had a rough idea that the matter surrounding the Tharizdun-avatar imprisonment was about 750 years prior to the introduction of the module into the timeline. The imprisoning of Little T was dear to him and his associates, for with it they gave up their mortal beings, so from that time the locale was lost.
Q: Did Tsojcanth actually imprison Tharizdun, or did he simply thwart the last attempt to free him? Did he scatter the Theorparts to the various Suel locals?
A: Tsojcanth and his allies did imprison the Tharizdun avatar, as noted. In my mind this was done BEFORE the Theorparts could be sussed out and gathered. However, as that is actually moot, one could devise an
interesting adventure in the past on this basis:
1) The minions of Tharizdun are seeking to return to the past and alter the course of events.
2) Those opposed to Tharizdun are alerted to the attempt and send their own team back to prevent the tampering.
3) Tsojcanth and company have their hands full with what they must do, so they can't help the team, but likewise the bad guys can get no aid from little T and his forces, they being busy contending with the assault of Tsojcanth.
4) The time-traveling Evil group is bent on locating and bringing to avatar Tharizdun the Theorparts, but they can't use them themselves for any purpose, or else the potent Neutral forces will immediately intervene and send the time-travelers back.
5) The good team must prevent the Theorparts from being brought to the vicinity of the avatar Tharizdun’s power base, but instead must get them and convey them to the locale of Tsojcanth.
Q: What did Iggwilv find of Tsojcanth's that made her so powerful? Was she the power behind the Demonomicon? Or did she develop Tsojcanth's
research?
A: I thought of it as a sort of "know thy enemy" matter. Tsojcanth complied and hid away all manner of information and things relating to Evil. Iggwilv, being of Chaotic bent and Evil disposition, discovered and read that which resonated with her perspective. She simply compiled material she discovered into the work cited, the Demonomicon, so she could employ the power thus contained for her own ends. Iggwilv was by no means interested in loosing Tharizdun, which should go without saying. However, like most Evil ones, greed and hubris often combine to cause some fatal overreaching.
Q: Iggwilv is Drelnza's mother - who is Drelnza's father?
A: never actually set that forth anywhere. (Perhaps even Iggwilv isn't certain:) Drelnza isn't so potent as to be the offspring of a great demon, but more I can't say with "authority". As you (collectively) are the most actively interested, perhaps you can decide the matter of paternity here on the List. If it seems reasonable, I'll certainly lend my agreement, and then it can be passed on to WoTC/TSR for "Imprimatur".
Q: WHEN (in Common Years) did Iggwilv rule the Perrenland?
A: Let's see how well this matches with what you have discovered.
As best I can recall, I thought that she was in power there for a relatively brief time some 500 years in the past. Once more, I remind all that I did not pin down actual times save where absolutely necessary so as to not constrain any future creative developments. Keep that in mind as you seek to detail every moment of the past. Each time you do that you disallow anything not set forth then to ever be. Allow creators as much latitude as possible.
Q: When was Graz’zt imprisoned by her, and when did he battle free?
A: Timelines! Ah, well, I thought of it as about 200 years before the "present" as given in the T1-4, Temple of Elemental Evil.
I wonder if Gary ever said what was in the secret cavern in the Lost Caverns that the pech were tunneling to. Here is the reference from area 6 of The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth:
Quote:
These thin, dwarf-sized creatures [pech] are busily working to cut a flight of stairs upwards into the mountain where they know there is a large, sealed cavern.
Just a small, off-hand detail (which I did turn into something rather important when I ran the adventure), but I don't recall anybody ever talking about it. Anybody know anything about it? _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
I ran a few groups through the Lost Caverns, my favorite 1st edition module.
This is why I have Canonfire bookmarked and check it daily due to you ultimate scholars of Greyhawk. Keeping Gary's world alive in my mind and other lurkers just like me ;)
I wonder if Gary ever said what was in the secret cavern in the Lost Caverns that the pech were tunneling to. Here is the reference from area 6 of The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth:
Quote:
These thin, dwarf-sized creatures [pech] are busily working to cut a flight of stairs upwards into the mountain where they know there is a large, sealed cavern.
Just a small, off-hand detail (which I did turn into something rather important when I ran the adventure), but I don't recall anybody ever talking about it. Anybody know anything about it?
I don't remember Gary commenting on it from anything I'd read. FWIW, Key #6 Grotto doesn't appear in the original tournament version of the dungeon level, so it was presumably added as one of the little "expanders" left by Gary to inspire DMs to create and customize his modules. _________________ Allan Grohe<br />https://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html<br />https://grodog.blogspot.com/
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