Ok, this time I really could use some suggestions and clarification, or just overall personal (especially from a DMing perspective) insight on this dilemma:
I read from The City of Grehawk boxed set that the use of magic in legal proceedings is NOT used because of Zagyg's initial decree. According to page 12 of FFF in the section entitled "Magic and Justice," no spells are used during trials and criminal proceedings. OK, I get this (don't agree, but got it).
Here's my question: Is magic used during criminal investigations??? If there's a murder, or arson, or break-in, etc. would priests and wizards be used to collect, analyze, and gather evidence?
Ex: Speak with Dead from slain victims to ID a killer (or gather intelligence), ESP during interrogations (subtle or otherwise), and a whole host of other useful Divinations (or Charm spells).
After all, they don't have any scientific labs they can use, so there's no conducting a DNA test, or ballistics analysis, fingerprint matches, etc...
Or does this 'no use of magic' apply to collecting evidence during investigations, too??? Or does it apply ONLY to trials for convictions???
I have a situation pending that will require considerable deliberation on my part regarding this very outcome...
...I read from The City of Grehawk boxed set that the use of magic in legal proceedings is NOT used because of Zagyg's initial decree. According to page 12 of FFF in the section entitled "Magic and Justice," no spells are used during trials and criminal proceedings. OK, I get this (don't agree, but got it)...
-What's to agree with? Rules are the rules!
I guess they did it that way so that if you try to role play an investigation, it makes it more of a challenge, like a RL investigation. CSI Greyhawk!
One other thing, is that that some spells would only give information to the spellcaster. That might help if the jusge is also a spellcaster. Otherwise, the judge would have to trust the spellcaster, which could be problematic. Usually, you want evidence to be public.
Lanthorn wrote:
...Here's my question: Is magic used during criminal investigations??? If there's a murder, or arson, or break-in, etc. would priests and wizards be used to collect, analyze, and gather evidence?
Ex: Speak with Dead from slain victims to ID a killer (or gather intelligence), ESP during interrogations (subtle or otherwise), and a whole host of other useful Divinations (or Charm spells).
After all, they don't have any scientific labs they can use, so there's no conducting a DNA test, or ballistics analysis, fingerprint matches, etc...
Or does this 'no use of magic' apply to collecting evidence during investigations, too??? Or does it apply ONLY to trials for convictions???
-I'd say that Greyhawkers can use magic for investigations. The RL analogy would be lie detectors. You can't use them as evidence, but you can use them to get leads, and they can give you an idea of whether you're on the right track.
-I'd say that Greyhawkers can use magic for investigations. The RL analogy would be lie detectors. You can't use them as evidence, but you can use them to get leads, and they can give you an idea of whether you're on the right track.
I think that's a valid decision. It seems to me that allowing magic to be used in a courtroom brings up so many more questions of truthfulness of those involved in the spellcasting and interpretation (think Augury-types of magic) that would only complicate a trial. Is this what jamesdglick said?
I think that the authorities would certainly use magic for invetigations and interrogations. The king/mayor/etc. is very likely to have his trusted spellcasting advisors utilize magic such as Charm Person, Zone of Truth, Detect Lie, etc. to find the truth of a matter before any potential trial is initiated.
[quote="Lanthorn-What's to agree with? Rules are the rules!
No such thing as "Rules"... "Rules" became a misnomer from Late TSR (Williams) & WOC that didn't understand the origins premise for the game was GUIDELINES. As long as the DM is consistant, their game can (and Will) bloom and bear fruit.
From the Preface of the original Blue book through to the 2e and its supplements ... they are Guidelines, A System of Uniformity, a collective Creation,an open ended campaign where there is no final winner, no final objective, the campaign grows and changes as it matures. The only TRUE rules that exist are cooperation, imagination, and DMs World, his world, his Rules
No such thing as "Rules"... "Rules" became a misnomer from Late TSR (Williams) & WOC that didn't understand the origins premise for the game was GUIDELINES.
I now dub thee, DLG, a Disciple of Mystic-Scholar.
My conundrum really boils down to...will magic be used during investigations as opposed to courtroom trials?
If so, will any evidence thusly collected via magic be admissible in the court of law? If not, why use magic at all, right? That just seems counterintuitive and nonsensical. But perhaps that is just how Zagyg likes it.
Ideas, thoughts, suggestions welcome. Debate away! And feel free to use magic...if you like.
My conundrum really boils down to...will magic be used during investigations as opposed to courtroom trials?
Yes . . . false fan!
I researched this extensively for . . .
. . . That Infamous Key!
And here you claim to have read the story!
In the first chapter my young Magician informs the burglars Marek and Flegon of the misunderstanding of their statement:
“Now wait a minute!” said the first thief, truly alarmed now. “You can’t use magic on us! It . . . it ain’t legal in the city!”
“That’s right!” shouted the second thief.
“Is this true?” asked the cleric, turning to look at me.
I shook my head at her. “Actually, you’re a bit misinformed,” I replied to the two thieves. “I am free to use magic in the city of Greyhawk to assist in the apprehension and the interrogation of criminals.” I smiled at them. “That would include the two of you.” I waved my vial at them.
Mwahahahahahahahahaha!
So, O' Illuminated One, if you're really a fan of my work . . .
. . . then pay more attention to what you read!
All my stories are as "Canon" as I can make them. Believe that and trust in it. You have no idea of how much time I put into researching all "Canon" sources for the stories. _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
It also comes to mind that there are as many spells that obfuscate the truth as their are that detect it. If magic is allowed, another problem is that it would necessitate a comprehensive list of allowable spells and who is allowed to cast them. How could a Neutral Good society (balancing the benefit of society with the rights of the individual) allow a prosecutor to utilize magic in court, but deny the defense the same privilege? Also, considering the reality that new spells are frequently invented by all kinds of different spellcasters, such a list would be incomplete. An incomplete list would, by definition, deny a defendant his or her 'right' to the best legal defense.
In my campaign, the above in bunk. Authorities have the power to use magic to determine the truth, so they do. Goodly authorities may be more lenient when it comes to a defendant's use of magic, but it would be limited to cross-examination of witnesses, etc.
Your depiction of Derider had me really thinking about this, especially since I have her as a pivotal NPC in this (my) campaign story. I really liked how you authored her personality in your story (yes, admittedly, what I have read).
I am sure you've done your 'homework' prior to crafting your story. Hence, my interest in asking for input.
GH is a very corrupt place so I'm sure the actual policy of no magic in the courtroom or it's liberal use in investigation before trial entirely depends on who is being prosecuted. In the same source books IIRC you have to be able to speak the near dead language of Suloise to practice law. The game is fixed in favor of the most resourceful in the city.
In the same source books IIRC you have to be able to speak the near dead language of Suloise to practice law.
From "That Infamous Key, Chapter 4:
“If I may ask, Magician, who is this ‘Mortellan’ you speak of?” asked Eileen.
“Mortellan is a friend and one time adventuring companion of my Master, Maldin,” I replied. “And he has proven himself both a friend and mentor to me. He is a high-elf from Highfolk, a ‘free-town’ located on the Velverdyva river, just west of the Kingdom of Furyondy. Mortellan is a Guild Mage. He’s also a Guild Sage and a Guild Lawyer, which is saying something.”
We passed The Strip and rounded the curve which turned the east/west running Horseshoe Road to a southerly direction.
“Being a Guild Lawyer is special?” asked Wolfsire.
“To be a Guild Lawyer you must first be able to speak ancient Suloise,” I explained. “Mostly, however, both the Sage’s Guild and the Lawyer’s Guild number very few non-humans among their members. Guild lawyers are mainly human citizens of Greyhawk’s upper classes.”
Mwahahahahahahahahaha!
Tsk! Even Mort's already forgotten . . . and he stars in the story!
-I'd say that Greyhawkers can use magic for investigations.
I'd agree, but as our own world its application of "law" would vary
jamesdglick wrote:
The RL analogy would be lie detectors. You can't use them as evidence, but you can use them to get leads, and they can give you an idea of whether you're on the right track.
Good Anology, but you CAN use them as evidence. Federal Rules of Evidence 702 just to name one support this. 702 cites it as submissable just as expert witness testimony, and general acceptance of the scientific community (ie DNA matching).
However in fairness to the debate,
FRoE 403 and 608 cite polygraph unadmissible if ambiguous or misleading(403)
or
For character assassination unless there is corraberating evidence showing the defendant is lieing other than just a polygraph(608).
States such as Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, North Dakota, Ohio, Utah, Washington and Wyoming allow polograph as admissible evidence.
Point is, even in our "modern times" we cannot agree, it varies from place to place. So why would GH be any different.
As to GH (the Flanness), why wouldn't they use magic? This is akin to conversations elsewhere on what they would/ wouldn't invent in relation to the "real world".
In a world where magics exist, why would they not utilize the tools that came naturally to them?
Could some of it turn into the spanish inquisition? Sure
Could there be "laws" prohibiting all of or some of there uses? Sure.
Many of our 'modern laws" sprang forth from religious wells. why not there?
Example:
prosecution> "your honor, we present the scribed testimony of the murdered victim as told to Brother Malian (companion of the deceased) by way of the Speak to the Dead spell."
Defense>" I present objection to this method your honor. How do we know it was the deceased that Brother Malian spoke with? It has come to the attention of many and through the blessed use of the commune, that he is in league with Nerull." "Further, it was found on his person, many a reagent, but most disturbing, a pineal gland. It is outlawed and blasphemous to utilize the parts of a human, in this case a pineal gland. No doubt used for dark clairvoyances?? .
Do the pholtans believe they have the one true god yep, so can certainly see them disallowing "evidence" brought forth from any other means.
As to GH the City, you have Zagyg that defines that "charter".
...I think that's a valid decision. It seems to me that allowing magic to be used in a courtroom brings up so many more questions of truthfulness of those involved in the spellcasting and interpretation (think Augury-types of magic) that would only complicate a trial. Is this what jamesdglick said?
-Well, it's what I meant to say.
Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
...Good Anology, but you CAN use them as evidence. Federal Rules of Evidence 702 just to name one support this. 702 cites it as submissable just as expert witness testimony, and general acceptance of the scientific community (ie DNA matching).
However in fairness to the debate,
FRoE 403 and 608 cite polygraph unadmissible if ambiguous or misleading(403) or For character assassination unless there is corraberating evidence showing the defendant is lieing other than just a polygraph(608). States such as Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, North Dakota, Ohio, Utah, Washington and Wyoming allow polograph as admissible evidence.
Point is, even in our "modern times" we cannot agree, it varies from place to place...
-So, if I'm reading this right, lie detectors are admissible evidence on the Federal level, and in some states, but only if it supports other already existing evidence, or as expert testimony, which can be challenged, which brings us back to the analogy of spellcaster credibility.
Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
...No such thing as "Rules"... "Rules" became a misnomer from Late TSR (Williams) & WOC that didn't understand the origins premise for the game was GUIDELINES. As long as the DM is consistant, their game can (and Will) bloom and bear fruit...
-This isn't a game "rule" or guideline, its canon. You can change it, but then you're getting in Weird Greyhawk Territory e.g., "In my campaign, the Queen of Celene is a 23rd level Chaotic Neutral Half-Orc-Tiefling Wizard named 'Wesley"...
Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
....As to GH the City, you have Zagyg that defines that "charter".
...which, for the city of Greyhawk, takes us back to who made that law ("Zagyg") and why ("he was nuts").
I think this "mystery" can be called "solved".
But again, as to rationale for the law in terms of playing an RPG, it was probably to make investigation adventures more challenging.
...which, for the city of Greyhawk, takes us back to who made that law ("Zagyg") and why ("he was nuts").
Taken from "That Infamous Key," Chapter 4:
"We passed through the immense portal, but had not proceeded very far when a group of four men moved towards us. All were dressed in leather armor; three carried knives in belt sheaths, while the evident leader wore a short sword and carried a leather bound book. If Wolfsire had not been standing between myself and these men, I seriously doubt they would have approached us. I heard Bubbagump groan and, looking down, I smiled when I saw him reaching for his small purse.
“Here!” the leader cried. “What is it that you think you’re doing?”
“Huh?” Wolfsire grunted.
“We’ll have none of that!” the leader continued. “Its illegal to help a halfling across the street in this city! That’ll cost you a lucky in fines! Now pay up!”
And again:
“Magician, what in the nine hells just happened?” asked Wolfsire.
“Those men are known as ‘People’s Constables,’” I pointed to the little knot of men now standing down the street. “I have no doubt that Bubbagump is quite familiar with them.” The halfling nodded. “They are empowered by the Directing Oligarchy to enforce minor laws and collect fines for trivial offenses. They prey upon those who they view as ‘easy pickings,’ such as foreigners and halflings. However, they do not harass the ‘upper classes,’ of which I am considered to be a member. Most people who are accosted by them find it more convenient to simply pay the Constable’s small fines and continue on about their business.”
“They recognized Wolfsire and I as foreigners and so thought we would be ‘easy pickings,’” said Eileen, as we started walking.
“Something like that,” I said; then added a warning. “But don’t dismiss them too quickly. They are very good at finding some rather obscure laws to enforce, using them to harass the poor and disenfranchised. That law he cited is probably real. Greyhawk’s legendary Lord Mayor, Zagig Yragerne, enacted many such idiotic laws during the final years of his administration.”
For those who are interested in knowing, that law IS real. Zagig Yragerne did, indeed, make it illegal to help a halfling across the street.
There are a bunch of those weird little "laws" in Greyhawk. I happened to choose that one, because of the "presence" of Bubbagump in the group.
IMO, no one running a "city" campaign -- in the City of Greyhawk -- should miss the opportunity to make frequent use of the "People's Constables" and the numerous flaky laws enacted by Zagig! _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
DLG, sometimes you are too funny!
Hahahahahahahahahahaha!
I just had to get that "out!"
Hey humor for all.. malice towards none.
jamesdglick wrote:
So, if I'm reading this right, lie detectors are admissible evidence on the Federal level, and in some states, but only if it supports other already existing evidence, or as expert testimony, which can be challenged, which brings us back to the analogy of spellcaster credibility
Yep, Yep, Yep, and Yep
jamesdglick wrote:
the Queen of Celene is a 23rd level Chaotic Neutral Half-Orc-Tiefling Wizard named 'Wesley"...
Wesley???? I thought I read somewhere her "true name" was BOB isn't it always BOB?? Bob's Road, Uncle Bob, etc...
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Or does it apply ONLY to trials for convictions???
