The Marklands tells us that Archbold's wife "has been dead for seven long years" in 585 CY (so she died in 578 CY). Is there anything about her in canon (or even LG semi-canon)? My campaign is currently in 572 CY, so the Queen is still around, and my group is headed for Rel Mord.
You'd think with all the scenes in Night Arrant that took place in Archbold's royal court, Gygax could have mentioned his wife at least once. No luck, though. No luck on the old Living Nyrond website either.
I wonder who she was. Presumably a princess from some allied nation or powerful noble's daughter.
You'd think with all the scenes in Night Arrant that took place in Archbold's royal court, Gygax could have mentioned his wife at least once. No luck, though. No luck on the old Living Nyrond website either.
I wonder who she was. Presumably a princess from some allied nation or powerful noble's daughter.
Just bumping this up, in case anyone found anything.
I checked all of my Living Greyhawk resources and found nothing on the former queen of Nyrond. Not even a name. The Nyrond triads over the years did not appear to address her at all in any communications, drafts or other discussions.
Well, since she's a clean slate, here's what I'm toying with. I've settled on the name Darielle. As rasgon speculated, she would have been the daughter of a powerful, unspecified noble (though Nyrond's nobles weren't very powerful, especially pre-Wars). She's of similar age to Archbold (perhaps even a few years his senior).
I see Queen Darielle as a mid-level magic-user and not lily-white in alignment (probably Lawful Neutral). She favors Sewarndt, as Archbold favors Lynwerd. Lynwerd, as the first born, was showered with attention and had a bright future already set for him. Sewarndt, the "other" son, had to make his own future. Lacking his brother's physical prowess, he chose intellectual pursuits under his mother's tutelage. Her death in 578 CY would start to push Sewarndt toward evil.
I have one other bit of speculation here, to stir up an old debate. What if it were Queen Darielle who orchestrated the kidnapping of Prince Thrommel of Furyondy in 573 CY, using the nascent Scarlet Brotherhood to enact the deed? Nyrond would have practical reasons to not want a united Furyondy–Veluna in the west, and the queen I envisage would not be averse to getting her hands dirty in defense of the realm, all the while giving King Archbold plausible deniability. (As Lynwerd is his father's son, Sewarndt is every bit his mother's.) Have I been watching too much Game of Thrones?
I have one other bit of speculation here, to stir up an old debate. What if it were Queen Darielle who orchestrated the kidnapping of Prince Thrommel of Furyondy in 573 CY, using the nascent Scarlet Brotherhood to enact the deed? Nyrond would have practical reasons to not want a united Furyondy–Veluna in the west, and the queen I envisage would not be averse to getting her hands dirty in defense of the realm, all the while giving King Archbold plausible deniability. (As Lynwerd is his father's son, Sewarndt is every bit his mother's.) Have I been watching too much Game of Thrones?
I have no problem with that possibility and, if it plays into your campaign well, you should use it. However, taking a broader view, there are so many powers in the Flanaess that would have desired for the Furyondian prince to disappear and had the power to orchestrate it that I would find it much more likely that Queen Darielle toyed with the idea, but simply considered it good fortune when someone else pulled it off. Also, how and why would agents of the Scarlet Brotherhood working for Queen Darielle of Nyrond have entombed Prince Thrommel in the Temple of Elemental Evil?
...She's of similar age to Archbold (perhaps even a few years his senior)...
-Explains why she died first. Or something else?
DMPrata wrote:
...I see Queen Darielle as a mid-level magic-user and not lily-white in alignment (probably Lawful Neutral). She favors Sewarndt, as Archbold favors Lynwerd. Lynwerd, as the first born, was showered with attention and had a bright future already set for him. Sewarndt, the "other" son, had to make his own future. Lacking his brother's physical prowess, he chose intellectual pursuits under his mother's tutelage. Her death in 578 CY would start to push Sewarndt toward evil...
-Explains a lot.
DMPrata wrote:
Well, since she's a clean slate, here's what I'm toying with. I've settled on the name Darielle. As rasgon speculated, she would have been the daughter of a powerful, unspecified noble (though Nyrond's nobles weren't very powerful, especially pre-Wars)...
-If she's paired off to a king, she'd probably have been from outside Nyrond. Bandit Kingdoms? Shield Lands? Put the two together for Redhand? Bone March (pre-overthrow)? Tehn? Somewhere in the Iron League? Maybe even the Pale (OK, that would require a lot of explaining- exile?)?
SirXaris wrote:
DMPrata wrote:
I have one other bit of speculation here, to stir up an old debate. What if it were Queen Darielle who orchestrated the kidnapping of Prince Thrommel of Furyondy in 573 CY, using the nascent Scarlet Brotherhood to enact the deed...
... how and why would agents of the Scarlet Brotherhood working for Queen Darielle of Nyrond have entombed Prince Thrommel in the Temple of Elemental Evil?
1) She's LN, not LE. Didn't have the heart to kill him?
2) Maybe she intended one thing, but the SB went in a different direction with it, to her surprise.
3) Did she know (or fully understand) who she was dealing with?
She might have planned to have him brought to Nyrond, or maybe to wherever she was originally from. The SB pulled off the kidnapping (with help from her agents), but the SB agents gave Thrommel to the ToEE instead.
How embarrassing.
May have had something to do with here untimely demise...
As rasgon speculated, she would have been the daughter of a powerful, unspecified noble
I suggest making her the older sister of Duke Regurd Korenflass, who is said to be a friend of Sewarndt. Make Korenflass Sewarndt's uncle, with Sewarndt taking more after the Korenflass side of the family. The decline in good will between Archbold and Korenflass could coincide with the queen's death. If the queen is involved in a conspiracy, the ruthless Duke Korenflass could aid her in it.
I’m resurrecting this nine-year-old topic to address a wider campaign issue. In the world of Dungeons & Dragons, how does a queen just die in her 50s? There’s no canonical evidence to suggest that she was assassinated. If she contracted a disease, it no doubt would be cured immediately. Even if somehow she were stricken with something that proved rapidly fatal, she’d be raised.
The Queen of Nyrond is hardly the only example. (See my earlier thread on the Huldanes of Mowbrenn.) Canon is rife with rulers who’ve just quietly passed away—as they have in the real world—seemingly with no consideration of the divine powers at their disposal. (Justinian Lorinar is a notable exception.) How can these deaths be plausibly explained in a setting with plenty of high-level clerics?
Early, but not suspicious, deaths as well as peg legs, eye patches, and hooks for hands are indeed problematic in environments with healing magic.
In 3.rd ed., hiring a regenerate spell was so inexpensive I had to search for a backstory why an elderly 5th level fighter NPC was still missing his arm (he was a carry over from 1st ed.). I stumbled upon dying curses and family curses mentioned in 3rd editions Book of Vile Darkness. For explaining NPC features they may work. But if it works for NPCs, then the Players will wonder why can't they do it - and things start to get wonky - so its an iffy solution.
Perhaps the wife's family is under a familial curse and only one of her son's was able to shrug it off (make his save)? More the storybook version of curses - and there needs to be some kind of mundane, equally storybook, solution that someone hasn't discovered yet - "true love's kiss", etc., etc..
For my old NPC, I used the dying curse of a very powerful opponent - my NPC had only dealt the killing blow while in the army - it was much higher level heroes who had really disabled the powerful source of the curse.
Thinking more on this topic, maybe casting raise dead on the royal family is considered taboo in goodly nations. One thing you don’t mess with is the line of succession.
Thinking more on this topic, maybe casting raise dead on the royal family is considered taboo in goodly nations. One thing you don’t mess with is the line of succession.
I don't use these spells for NPCs.
Several explanations can be given:
- everyone has a life line and a predestined date of death. One must not contravene these higher entities/deities (Death, Destiny). A PC's injury and death occurs outside of this predestination.
- the more important the character is, the more it will be asked of the divinity in exchange. Tenser ?
- I was thinking of introducing consequences to a Raise Dead depending on the level and importance of the dead with the risk of dying himself for the high priest
Jacques
A suggestion concerning Queen Darielle hiring the Scarlet Brotherhood on behalf of Nyrond:
What if Darielle herself was a Scarlet Brotherhood agent? Either this fact or her machinations against Furyondy/Veluna might have been reason enough for a quiet removal of the Queen (citing a sudden illness or accident) by the Nyrondese powers-that-be, were her schemes discovered. This could explain the deliberate silence around the topic of the former Queen in published sources.
Also: If the Scarlet Brotherhood kidnapped Thrommel and he ended up a prisoner in the ToEE, doesn't that imply the Brotherhood traded him for something more valuable to their own interests?
(Probably anathema to some here, I'm sure, but perhaps there actually was some interaction or alliance between the Temple and the Brotherhood-sponsored Slave Lords.)
My assumption is that cure disease spells can cure illnesses caused by viruses, bacteria, etc. and aberrations within the body itself like cancer or heart disease, but they can't cure genetic conditions like Downs Syndrome, hemophilia, Tay-Sachs Disease, strabismus, Marfan Syndrome, etc. There's some precedent for this in AD&D, as the Dungeon Master's Guide says that the Heal spell won't cure mental illnesses that aren't caused by brain damage.
I wrote a story on Greyhawk Resources about Nerof Gasgal courting a female hostess at the Wheel of Gold gambling house. I have Nerof as a widower whose wife died of a genetic disease, something which the clerics he hired to treat her had to explain to him. There was nothing at all they could do.
As for Archbold's queen in general, I don't see any reason to retcon the idea that the forces of Elemental Evil kidnapped Thrommel. I know it came from Gary Gygax, but frankly I think it's preposterous that the Scarlet Brotherhood would even reveal itself that way to an Oeridian-majority nation like Nyrond, much less act as glorified thugs for hire.
As for who she is, Queen Fiona is the daughter of a Sunndian noble house. The marriage was quite a coup for her dowager grandmother, who wasn't known for her willingness to take "no" for an answer. She wasn't thrilled to be betrothed to Archbold when she was a teenager and he but three years older, but she was keenly aware of her familial responsibilities.
Her relationship with the fiery-tempered Archbold could be described as cordial but distant, as she is often grim-faced and reserved in keeping with her Sunndian character. and otherwise doesn't care to listen to Archbold's constant boasting. Archbold didn't appreciate that, but at the same time he almost developed a certain respect for her refusing to kowtow to him and not being shy about voicing her opinions when she had something to say. Fiona, in turn, developed a certain respect for Archbold in that he didn't try to shout her down or keep her from speaking her mind.
Regarding their two sons, Fiona is closer to Lynwerd than to Sewarndt, feeling more of a bond to his contemplative, thoughtful nature than to the hot-tempered Sewarndt, who got on better with Archbold. In between attending balls, ceremonies and other occasions of state where she has to put in appearances, she's often kept surprisingly busy with her studies of botany and forestry. She's even a respected scholar on the matter, having penned texts that better classified many of the trees and plants of the Phostwood and the Gamboge and Celadon Forests. Her writings have been quoted as far west as Keoland for their insightful nature.
She is well-respected for her beauty and intellect alike, having both the curly, golden hair and green eyes of her Sueloise heritage and her passion for scholarship and the study of nature. It's thought she might have made a fine priestess or even a druid if she'd wanted to, though she generally detested martial combat and the struggles that might have come with such a position.
As for Archbold's queen in general, I don't see any reason to retcon the idea that the forces of Elemental Evil kidnapped Thrommel. I know it came from Gary Gygax, but frankly I think it's preposterous that the Scarlet Brotherhood would even reveal itself that way to an Oeridian-majority nation like Nyrond, much less act as glorified thugs for hire.
I think what’s interesting here (and recently played out in my 573 CY campaign) is that the Scarlet Brotherhood revealed itself by sending emissaries to places like Rel Mord in the same year that Thrommel disappeared. I love the idea of a LG/LN nation like Nyrond making a deal with a LN/LE nation like Shar to prevent the unification of two LG rivals like Furyondy and Veluna.
I think what’s interesting here (and recently played out in my 573 CY campaign) is that the Scarlet Brotherhood revealed itself by sending emissaries to places like Rel Mord in the same year that Thrommel disappeared. I love the idea of a LG/LN nation like Nyrond making a deal with a LN/LE nation like Shar to prevent the unification of two LG rivals like Furyondy and Veluna.
I like that kind of alignment blending too, but I still have too many objections to go with this. Again, helping an Oeridian-majority kingdom that way doesn't really mesh with the Brotherhood's overall ideology.
And what does Nyrond even gain from preventing a union of Furyondy and Veluna? The advantages for Iuz, the Horned Society and Elemental Evil are all obvious, but why would Nyrond put so much effort into something like this, and give the Brotherhood that kind of dirty laundry, for no apparent gain? Nyrond might be willing to do that kind of skulduggery, but if I were Archbold III I'd be directing it against the Great Kingdom, not against an alliance that would relieve me of some of the costs of having to guard against Iuz, the Horned Ones or the Bandits!
I like that kind of alignment blending too, but I still have too many objections to go with this. Again, helping an Oeridian-majority kingdom that way doesn't really mesh with the Brotherhood's overall ideology.
And what does Nyrond even gain from preventing a union of Furyondy and Veluna? The advantages for Iuz, the Horned Society and Elemental Evil are all obvious, but why would Nyrond put so much effort into something like this, and give the Brotherhood that kind of dirty laundry, for no apparent gain? Nyrond might be willing to do that kind of skulduggery, but if I were Archbold III I'd be directing it against the Great Kingdom, not against an alliance that would relieve me of some of the costs of having to guard against Iuz, the Horned Ones or the Bandits!
Well, for me, the Nyrond/SB plot came from Gary himself, so it is what it is. If I needed to rationalize it, I’d consider a few points. First, the Brotherhood literally just revealed itself to the world for the first time, so maybe Nyrond didn’t fully appreciate with whom they were getting in bed. (IMC this line of thought is reinforced by laying the blame with the queen. Since it was an officially unsanctioned pact, maybe the Brotherhood wasn’t fully vetted.)
Second, pre-Wars Nyrond had little to fear from the north. Its eyes were turned east at Aerdy, not at some far-off demigod recently returned to his lands or a nation of devil worshipers. Even the bandits were only a minimal nuisance, with the County of Urnst as an effective buffer. A united Furyondy/Veluna would weaken Nyrond’s diplomatic and mercantile influence, though.
Third, what did the Brotherhood gain? We don’t know. In the short term, maybe just some money and outworld connections... In the long term, maybe Nyrond was forced (or blackmailed) to turn a blind eye to the Brotherhood’s actions against the Iron League.
Well, for me, the Nyrond/SB plot came from Gary himself, so it is what it is. If I needed to rationalize it, I’d consider a few points. First, the Brotherhood literally just revealed itself to the world for the first time, so maybe Nyrond didn’t fully appreciate with whom they were getting in bed. (IMC this line of thought is reinforced by laying the blame with the queen. Since it was an officially unsanctioned pact, maybe the Brotherhood wasn’t fully vetted.)
Second, pre-Wars Nyrond had little to fear from the north. Its eyes were turned east at Aerdy, not at some far-off demigod recently returned to his lands or a nation of devil worshipers. Even the bandits were only a minimal nuisance, with the County of Urnst as an effective buffer. A united Furyondy/Veluna would weaken Nyrond’s diplomatic and mercantile influence, though.
Third, what did the Brotherhood gain? We don’t know. In the short term, maybe just some money and outworld connections... In the long term, maybe Nyrond was forced (or blackmailed) to turn a blind eye to the Brotherhood’s actions against the Iron League.
I don't put much stock in Gary's EnWorld quotes when they contradict what he wrote in the official texts. When they don't (e.g. his musings on the Elder Elemental God's mentality) then I'm all for it, but the scenario described here just doesn't make any sense to me.
So the Scarlet Brotherhood abducts Thrommel at Nyrond's behest...and then they turn around and hand him over to the Temple of Elemental Evil? If they do that, they might as well hire a whole college of bards to publicly announce they're untrustworthy backstabbers, which is the last thing they need when they're setting everything up for their big takeover during the Wars.
I'm not even necessarily sure Nyrond would lose a whole lot from a united Furyondy and Veluna. Their main commercial interests as I see it would be with Greyhawk, the Urnst states, the Iron League, the Pale and Tenh, and their main diplomatic interest is obviously a united front against the Great Kingdom, which Furyondy and Veluna hardly threaten. Furyondy and Veluna probably have embassies with the eastern states, but especially with the Iron League they're going to play second fiddle to Nyrond simply due to geography and having the Great Kingdom on their doorsteps. At best they might have more competition with Greyhawk and the Urnst states, but that'd be like using a meteor swarm to kill a single goblin-the gains are hardly worth the losses.
...I know it came from Gary Gygax, but frankly I think it's preposterous that the Scarlet Brotherhood would even reveal itself that way to an Oeridian-majority nation like Nyrond, much less act as glorified thugs for hire...
-Who said that they told her they were from the Scarlet Brotherhood? They could have claimed to have been anyone. As a matter of fact, I'd almost guarantee it. But who?
They might not have done it for the money. DM Prata points out:
DMPrata wrote:
...Third, what did the Brotherhood gain? We don’t know. In the short term, maybe just some money and outworld connections... In the long term, maybe Nyrond was forced (or blackmailed) to turn a blind eye to the Brotherhood’s actions against the Iron League.
1) They've just made a friend of sorts in the queen and whoever else was in on the plot;
2) They now had blackmail over a queen and whoever else was in on the plot, if that doesn't work out;
3) Screwing over Furyondy was benefit enough;
4) If revealed, they've sown enmity between Furyondy and Nyrond;
-Who said that they told her they were from the Scarlet Brotherhood? They could have claimed to have been anyone. As a matter of fact, I'd almost guarantee it. But who?
They might not have done it for the money. DM Prata points out:
1) They've just made a friend of sorts in the queen and whoever else was in on the plot;
2) They now had blackmail over a queen and whoever else was in on the plot, if that doesn't work out;
3) Screwing over Furyondy was benefit enough;
4) If revealed, they've sown enmity between Furyondy and Nyrond;
5) Money never hurts.
How stupid does the queen have to be to deal with a few anonymous agents that have no loyalty to Nyrond for something so unbelievably sensitive? Shouldn't she hire agents that have more basis for being loyal to Nyrond, or even having a middleman do it for her?
And this seems like a ridiculous risk for minimal if any gains. Nyrond is more concerned with actions against the Great Kingdom, not what two friendly-to-neutral neigbhors are doing.
...How stupid does the queen have to be to deal with a few anonymous agents that have no loyalty to Nyrond for something so unbelievably sensitive? Shouldn't she hire agents that have more basis for being loyal to Nyrond ...
1) Who said the agents were anonymous? Who says that they were even hired at first, or ever hired at all? One of them would have been someone the queen considered to be a friend or confidant (Aristocrat? Lady-in-waiting? Lover? Nanny? Family member?). They simply had to wait for the right opening.
2) Maybe the queen thought they were loyal (or at least friendly) to Nyrond? IRL, Walker got his friend to spy for the Soviets by telling him he was spying for Israel.
3) Why couldn't the queen be stupid? What were her INT and WIS scores? And some motivations are of the sort that don't sort themselves into a stat':
I think it’s a win for all concerned (except Thrommel).
Nyrond achieves its goal of weakening Furyondy/Veluna with total deniability. Just judging from the reaction within the Greyhawk fanbase, who’d believe Nyrond was responsible for the ToEE holding Thrommel captive?
The SB gains favor/leverage with Nyrond and also double-dips by selling Thrommel to the ToEE.
The ToEE has the ultimate bargaining chip if Furyondy starts making trouble again.
Well, since she's a clean slate, here's what I'm toying with. I've settled on the name Darielle. As rasgon speculated, she would have been the daughter of a powerful, unspecified noble (though Nyrond's nobles weren't very powerful, especially pre-Wars). She's of similar age to Archbold (perhaps even a few years his senior).
I see Queen Darielle as a mid-level magic-user and not lily-white in alignment (probably Lawful Neutral). She favors Sewarndt, as Archbold favors Lynwerd. Lynwerd, as the first born, was showered with attention and had a bright future already set for him. Sewarndt, the "other" son, had to make his own future. Lacking his brother's physical prowess, he chose intellectual pursuits under his mother's tutelage. Her death in 578 CY would start to push Sewarndt toward evil.
I have one other bit of speculation here, to stir up an old debate. What if it were Queen Darielle who orchestrated the kidnapping of Prince Thrommel of Furyondy in 573 CY, using the nascent Scarlet Brotherhood to enact the deed? Nyrond would have practical reasons to not want a united Furyondy–Veluna in the west, and the queen I envisage would not be averse to getting her hands dirty in defense of the realm, all the while giving King Archbold plausible deniability. (As Lynwerd is his father's son, Sewarndt is every bit his mother's.) Have I been watching too much Game of Thrones?
Hi there
And if we imagined the opposite. The queen discovers the plot against Thrommel in which her second son soaks and the SB which eliminates her.
Hi there
And if we imagined the opposite. The queen discovers the plot against Thrommel in which her second son soaks and the SB which eliminates her.
Marklands lists Sewarndt as 25 and "beginning to turn evil" so I don't think a 13 year old is going to be able to pull that off.
If you're going to point at a prince, I would rather say that Lynwerd is an intensely jealous young man of 18 who got in bed with the SB and repented of it. As for why he was jealous, Thrommel is a paladin of Heironeous while Lynwerd is just a fighter.
Though looking at the Marklands NPCs, what would you say to the Grey Seer being the Seer of Urnst from the Ghost Tower of Inverness and having been an undercover agent of Nyrond during that time? You could even say that he was the one behind Thrommel's abduction.
Hi there
And if we imagined the opposite. The queen discovers the plot against Thrommel in which her second son soaks and the SB which eliminates her.
Marklands lists Sewarndt as 25 and "beginning to turn evil" so I don't think a 13 year old is going to be able to pull that off.
If you're going to point at a prince, I would rather say that Lynwerd is an intensely jealous young man of 18 who got in bed with the SB and repented of it. As for why he was jealous, Thrommel is a paladin of Heironeous while Lynwerd is just a fighter.
Though looking at the Marklands NPCs, what would you say to the Grey Seer being the Seer of Urnst from the Ghost Tower of Inverness and having been an undercover agent of Nyrond during that time? You could even say that he was the one behind Thrommel's abduction.
Hello Lareth
It was only an alternative hypothesis to the fact that the queen was accused of being behind Thrommel's abduction. Why ? Personally, I don't recognize Thrommel's kidnapping in my campaign. He is going to marry Jolène, constituting a strong pole of Good against Iuz. What balances the forces in the Flanaesse. I don't know the spring that animated EGG. He never explained it. A vampire in ToEE? childish? we all love EGG but TSR/WOTC hasn't provided any information on this episode in 40 years. Shame !
Don't worry! In my personal version of Greyhawk, Thrommel went in disguise as "Avras" and joined an adventuring company to do good like a young paladin should. When the Company of Nine came back to defeat the dragon Nex that had managed to influence King Belvor, the jig was up and Thrommel went back to being the Crown Prince and supporting his father, eventually marrying Jolene.
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