I haven't looked at 5e yet, but may at some conventions over the next few months. We'll see.... _________________ Allan Grohe<br />https://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html<br />https://grodog.blogspot.com/
Well I'm not sure Al'Akbar was ever a mainstream Core god. He is certainly still in overall Greyhawk canon. Given Akbar's islamic analog I don't think he'd go over well in today's publications.
It was bad idea to "claim" it for Greyhawk at all, let alone for the name to be used in a product in the first place. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
He was canon since 2e & fairly main deity in Baklunish lands, where as Istus, Geshtai, Xan Yae & Zuoken (the only male Baklunish in the pantheon prior to Al-Akbar being introduced) have been pretty much ignored when it comes to Baklunish religious culture. It was way before 9/11 so I'm figuring TSR wanted to give Greyhawk a more Arabic flavor after the success of Al-Qadim. Thus they pushed a pseudo-Islamic faith upon the Baklunish.
I agree it probably doesn't fly today, considering the trouble with militant Islam around the world. Al-Akbar is almost portrayed as a deified "Mohammad-like" prophet, thus could be seen as insulting to some Muslims. Though he was mentioned in issue #7 of Strategic Review, from what the article on wikipedia says. But that doesn't mean it was ever considered cannon prior to 2e Greyhawk supplements.
I always that it was odd that TSR tried to push the more Islamic/Arabic patriarchal thing when the bulk of the Baklunish pantheon was female. The only male deities were risen demigods. It didn't make sense at all to me. _________________ Screw U guys..I'm goin home~Cartmann/South Park
Looks like the got rid of Al'Akbar which is a good thing in my book.
He's never been a core Greyhawk god, so the fact that he's not in the PHB is hardly surprising and certainly not an indication that they "got rid" of him.
Iam_Who_Iam wrote:
But that doesn't mean it was ever considered cannon prior to 2e Greyhawk supplements.
The 1e DMG, p157, placed him squarely in the Greyhawk.
Well that was the 1e DMG & It's been years since I've own a 1e DMG. So I didn't know of the reference in the DMG, but since he wasn't included in the 1e Greyhawk setting guides I don't consider him official GH canon until 2e. You'd think they would have included in the list of Deities prior to 2e in published Greyhawk material if he was meant to be canon in 1e.
Also I don't like how WotC forced him to being the core god in the more theocratic Baklunish nations. You'd think Istus would be since she is the only listed greator deity of their pantheon.
I also forgot of the male Baklunish God Mouqol which didn't become official (in Campaign setting core) until 3e Living Greyhawk. I'll likely write out several "newer" deities from 2e & 3e for my 5e campaign. _________________ Screw U guys..I'm goin home~Cartmann/South Park
Well, just from the DMG reference it isn't clear that Al'Akbar is a god. Apart from the description of the relics, the only background is:
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This pair of holy relics were given by the gods of the Paynims to their most exalted high priest of lawful good alignment in the days following the Invoked Devastation. It was lost to demi-human raiders and was last rumored to be somewhere in the Southeastern portion of the Bandit Kingdoms.
So yes, with the reference to the Paynims, the Invoked Devastation, and the Bandit Kingdoms, this is clearly rooted in Greyhawk. But is Al'Akbar the name of the priest or the god who dispensed the relics? And there's no reason to think the priest ever became a deity.
In the early issues of the Oerth Journal, the assumption was that Al'Akbar is the Baklunish name for Pelor, and Pelor gave the relics to the unnamed high priest. Since the description says the artifact came from the Baklunish gods plural, it makes sense that Al'Akbar is more likely to the priest's name.
A problem was that in first edition there were no canonical good-aligned Baklunish gods, so who was rewarding a specifically lawful good priest? Thus the fan theory that the Baklunish worshiped some of the "common" deities, such as Pelor, Boccob, and Nerull, under Baklunish names. Gary Gygax has said, however, that he always intended to add more gods to the Baklunish pantheon and that they would have been entirely separate from the gods of the Flanaess, under the reasoning that a separate pantheon of gods would justify more conflict between east and west.
In the original description of the artifacts in The Strategic Review (called simply The Cup and Talisman of Akbar there) the cup is said to have the name of Allah written on it.
Dungeon #104 introduced the "Al'Asran" as the name of the entity that bequeathed the relics to the priest Al'Akbar, and from the description (and author Gary Holian's testimony) this was intended to be the new Baklunish name for Pelor. And it does make sense that two artifacts associated with healing powers fits Pelor best.
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Also I don't like how WotC forced him to being the core god in the more theocratic Baklunish nations.
More properly, freelance Living Greyhawk Gazetteer co-author Fred Weining did that, since it was his idea and I don't think any of WotC's employees cared one way or the other.
Or, at least, it seems like that was his intention from the emphasis that Al'Akbar has in the LGG. On the other hand, Al'Akbar is really a Muhammad figure, not an Allah figure. The Exalted Faith and the True Faith are named after him not because he's the "core god," but because he founded the religion in the same way that Muhammad founded Islam. But being the founder of the religion isn't the same thing as being the "core god" the religion worships. The LGG also says this (in a section probably written by Sean K. Reynolds):
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Eventually, [Al'Akbar] caused his own mosque to be constructed and allowed his followers to call upon his name in their prayers, soon thereafter ascending to take his place among the gods, although he remains a demigod out of respect for the rest of the pantheon.
He's not the sole god worshiped by the True and Exalted Faiths. He allows his followers to call upon his name but he remains a demigod out of respect for the rest of the pantheon.
That is, he's subordinate to the other Baklunish gods. He's not their patriarch, and he's not the chief or core god worshiped by the Baklunish people. He's an exalted prophet who codified a system of moral guidance distinct from the moral systems common before the Invoked Devastation, but he did not in any way overthrow or overshadow the gods themselves. The Baklunish people know perfectly well that Istus, Geshtai, and Xan Yae are more powerful and more fundamental to the cosmos than Al'Akbar is. They know it's Istus who weaves the strings of fate, Xan Yae who guides people through the shadows, Geshtai who provides the life-giving waters, Mouqol who watches over business deals, and Zuoken who watches over psionicists and martial artists. They know Al'Asran is light and healing, Al'Zarad (Boccob) balances the forces of magic, Sevelkhar the Waster (Incabulos) brings down famine, nightmares, and plagues, and Tharoth (Nerull) reaps the souls of the just and the unjust alike.
Al'Akbar is a humble servant of the other gods who showed the Bakluni, in their time of greatest need, a new way to live.
Of course, remember that on Oerth, being more powerful doesn't mean a god is more popular. As A Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting put it in 1983, "In general, the greater gods are too far removed from the world to have much to do with humanity, and while they are worshiped, few people hold them as patrons."
since he wasn't included in the 1e Greyhawk setting guides I don't consider him official GH canon until 2e.
If Greyhawk's creator puts Greyhawk content in the game's original core rulebook, that's pretty canon. Even if you don't play 1e, it's worth buying a cheap DMG for the Greyhawk content alone. There's a surprising amount.
You cleared up a lot & I'll likely use your post as the basis of how I'll portray the Baklunish pantheon. I'm still not sure on Al'Akbar, if I do include him he may become the patron deity of a rival cult attempting to usurp the place of the older gods. _________________ Screw U guys..I'm goin home~Cartmann/South Park
Rasgon, are those Baklunish names for more generally worshipped gods (Boccob, etc.) your own invention, or did you find them somewhere? If so, where?
Thanks.
Boccob's Baklunish name, Al-Zarad, is mentioned in Dragon #338, page 41 (in an article by Sean K. Reynolds): "the Baklunish people (who know him as Al-Zarad) show him as olive-skinned with Baklunish facial features, while the Suel depict him as fair-haired and fair skinned."
It was originally from Oerth Journal #3, though, which provided Baklunish names for a variety of gods.
Page 6 (in an article on wizard guilds by Gary Holian): "Even the Art of the Sha'ir flourishes within this edifice, much to the chagrin of the priests of Al-Zarad (Boccob), who claim that its practice is not true magic."
Page 14 (an article on Zuoken by Erik Mona): "Upon entering the Shrine of Pools, Zuoken was greeted with the spinning vortices that led to the personal realms of each god venerated by the Bakluni. In the center, he saw the golden-hued portal that led to the tower of Al-Zarad. There was the largest portal, that of Al-Akbar himself. Directly opposite, the dull black gate to the realm of Tharoth, the Reaper, throbbed its painful ambiance."
It's pretty clear that Tharoth was intended to be Nerull. And Al'Akbar was meant to be Pelor.
Since Al'Akbar became a separate god, the name of the deified high priest, a new name for Pelor was needed. Pelor's current Baklunish name, Al'Asran, is from Dungeon #104, page 106 (in an article on paladins by Gary Holian): "a being bathed in sunlight, known to the Paynims as Al'Asran, granted the legendary cup and talisman to the prophet Al'Akbar so that he might lead his people from suffering and return them to the ways of the gods."
Incabulos's Baklunish name, Sevelkhar the Waster, is from Russell S. Timm's article on Incabulos in Oerth Journal #9. Page 11: "It should be noted that Incabulos is known to the Bakluni as Sevelkhar the Waster, Master of Famine and Drought, the Poisoner of Wells. In the Bakluni culture, Sevelkhar is the eternal opponent of Geshtai, and both are viewed as subservient to Istus, Our Lady of Fate. This is contrary to the common belief of the Flanaess, where Incabulos is one of the few Greater Powers, an equal of Istus, and vastly more powerful than Geshtai, a Lesser Power."
Last edited by rasgon on Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:14 am; edited 1 time in total
I've always liked the trend to change Flanaess deities into new names for new cultures. Sevelkhar/Incabulos is a name that I certainly haven't heard much in these forums and I wish I had coopted it for my Ull writings now.
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