In another thread, I pointed out that the 1983 boxed set does not list the patron gods of NPC cleric rulers or of clerical fiefs and states.
One can make educated guesses about which gods make the most sense for which rulers and states, based on alignment, ethnic background of the states, a few items in the gods sections in the back of the Guide, but the specifics are left up to the DM and to later publications to clarify.
The earlier Folio edition didn't even list gods at all, apart from mentioning that Iuz was a demigod and a cambion (I think).
Of course, later published materials cleared a lot of this up, for the official TSR/Wotc continuity.
That's the official stuff. What I'm interested in is how other DMs run it.
What I want to know is which gods/cults/religions you guys use for the various clerical rulers and clerical states of the Flanaess.
Do you just go with whatever the latest published sources have to say? Any source in particular? If two sources differ, do you favor one?
Do you ignore the 1983 boxed set (and later) gods altogether and take what could be read as allusions to Islam and Christianity at face value? I'm thinking of something sort of like Chivalry and Sorcery's take on religion. Maybe use hagiolatry, diabolism, and some sort of nature-worship (for druids)? Something else?
I cobble together from whatever sources I can find, from the original Greyhawk boxed set to my latest of 2e materials. If I had to pick just one primary source, however, I would lean towards the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer guide. My second source would likely be From the Ashes.
I cobble together from whatever sources I can find, from the original Greyhawk boxed set to my latest of 2e materials. If I had to pick just one primary source, however, I would lean towards the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer guide. My second source would likely be From the Ashes.
-Lanthorn
That sounds fun. Both books are really excellent.
TANGENT:
That reminds me of some good news.
I was able to recover my From the Ashes watermarked PDF from a disk, along with a lot of other AD&D materials.
I still don't have my GDQ PDFs, but I think I know which disk has those backed up. I just have to dig it out of the mess that is my office.
Since the Flanaess is for the most part a polytheistic society, I prefer to think in terms of pantheons rather than to give each state a single patron deity. I think too often D&D religions are treated as if each god has a church broadly equivalent to medieval Catholicism all of its own, which makes no sense considering that, for the most part, they're not universal gods. Pelor presides over sun, strength, and healing, but if you want someone to bring the rain or bless your marriage or usher your dead into the afterlife you need to worship someone else.
A comprehensive church needs to teach their flock what sin is and how it can be purged, the nature of the afterlife, rituals for birth, marriage, and death, and a number of other things beyond the purview of any single god, or at least most single gods. If you worship only one god, you're liable to offend the others and get yourself in trouble. So for the most part a clerical state is going to recognize a variety of gods so that together they have deities governing all major aspects of reality. This'll depend on the state's alignment and ethnic background. The leader of the state may be sworn to one deity in particular, but he may be succeeded by a cleric of another god of the pantheon without any particular problems or ill-will, as it's the responsibility of the church to honor all deities of the pantheon. It's less like a Muslim cleric taking over for a Catholic cleric as Pope and more like an Argentinian cleric taking over for a German one. They're different flavors of the same religion.
The Pale I see as an exception, being mostly monolatrous. Pholtus isn't the creator of the universe or the supreme being, but he's the messenger of the divine light and other gods are false, demonic, or willfully blind, though he is served by multiple saints. Other gods are worshiped in the Pale, particularly among Flan-descended commoners, but this is frowned upon by the state.
Since the Flanaess is for the most part a polytheistic society, I prefer to think in terms of pantheons rather than to give each state a single patron deity. I think too often D&D religions are treated as if each god has a church broadly equivalent to medieval Catholicism all of its own, which makes no sense considering that, for the most part, they're not universal gods. Pelor presides over sun, strength, and healing, but if you want someone to bring the rain or bless your marriage or usher your dead into the afterlife you need to worship someone else.
A comprehensive church needs to teach their flock what sin is and how it can be purged, the nature of the afterlife, rituals for birth, marriage, and death, and a number of other things beyond the purview of any single god, or at least most single gods. If you worship only one god, you're liable to offend the others and get yourself in trouble. So for the most part a clerical state is going to recognize a variety of gods so that together they have deities governing all major aspects of reality. This'll depend on the state's alignment and ethnic background. The leader of the state may be sworn to one deity in particular, but he may be succeeded by a cleric of another god of the pantheon without any particular problems or ill-will, as it's the responsibility of the church to honor all deities of the pantheon. It's less like a Muslim cleric taking over for a Catholic cleric as Pope and more like an Argentinian cleric taking over for a German one. They're different flavors of the same religion.
The Pale I see as an exception, being mostly monolatrous. Pholtus isn't the creator of the universe or the supreme being, but he's the messenger of the divine light and other gods are false, demonic, or willfully blind, though he is served by multiple saints. Other gods are worshiped in the Pale, particularly among Flan-descended commoners, but this is frowned upon by the state.
I tend to agree.
I'm kicking around a wildly alternate (though it doesn't contradict anything published before Fate of Istus, to my knowledge) variant of the Pale, in the HERESY section.
Wee Jas as the patron deity, not Pholtus.
I've posted a story about Kord and the Cat Lord , in another thread. It connects with my take on Almor with Kord as its patron (but not the only god).
Wee Jas as patron of the Pale would be interesting. The Pale as a state dedicated to death and magic would be a very different place, but Wee Jas is probably just as preoccupied wih order as Pholtus. And you're right, I think, that Wee Jas was the only deity explicitly associated with the Pale for many years. I can also imagine Wee Jas and Pholtus joined as part of a single divine couple or family, or as part of a Moorcock-style pantheon of law.
Wee Jas as patron of the Pale would be interesting. The Pale as a state dedicated to death and magic would be a very different place, but Wee Jas is probably just as preoccupied wih order as Pholtus. And you're right, I think, that Wee Jas was the only deity explicitly associated with the Pale for many years. I can also imagine Wee Jas and Pholtus joined as part of a single divine couple or family, or as part of a Moorcock-style pantheon of law.
RE: Wee Jas, the Pale, Lords of Law:
I note that The Pale is listed in the Guide as LN (that alignment map) and that common alignments for human natives of the Pale, as per the Glossography, are LN and LG.
Gods of Law, indeed!
Donblas the Justice -Maker approves.
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TANGENT--- Scarlet Brotherhood= misunderstood? :)
The 1983 Guide's alignment map shows the Scarlet Brotherhood lands as LN, not as LE.
Maybe that's because the vast majority of the ordinary citizens and slaves aren't evil? Perhaps only the SB leadership and its most cold-blooded, ruthless operatives are evil as a rule? It could also just be a misprint. Heck, maybe my copy of the '83 box includes typos or misprints that other printings do not include.
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RE: Almor, gods and alignments
The common alignments for humans from Almor are listed as LN and LG in the Glossography, while the Guide map shows Almor as CG, NG, and N in alignments. I wonder if that Almor table to map mismatch means that Gygax always intended it (Almor) really should be a more or less Lawful Good sort of place, and the alignment map includes a misprint or alternate version? If so, then his later rremarks about Heironeous and Almor make perfect sense.
I wrote up some stuff about Kord in Almor. IIRC, the same Gods of the Suloise articles that establish Wee Jas as a god worshipped in the Pale also establish Kord as a god worshipped in Almor.
There are few or no mentions of national patrons at that point, in the early 80s.
If I combine the Almor alignment info from the Guide and Glossography, then maybe Almor looks like so:
For more on Kord in Almor, I have a another thread.
I'm pretty certain I have remembered it correctly: one of the Lakofka/Gygax gods artciles does list Almor as a place where Kord is worshipped. And of course Almor is listed as OS (Oerid-Suloise mixture), so there's a significant Suloise background in the human mix. It makes sense one Suloise god would still be worshipped there, even if most of the others are not.
I didn't list Telchur, a CN god. He'd have little in the way of temples and clergy of his own. Almor has only mild winters, right?
It might be cool if the ''Wind Gods" were worshipped under the open sky in Almor, with small rural shrines erected in their honor. Telchur gets honor along with his sisters, but he's the odd man out (as he is in some stories about the family). Father Velnius oversees all from his house above the clouds.
We could add Pelor to the NG list, and combine his worship with the Wind Gods. Maybe Beory, too. So there would be a sort of ''Old Faith'' but here it's much more clerical than druidic, and more Oeridian than Flan.
"With my feet bare on the bare earth, my head uncovered beneath the vast sky and the light of the sun, my hands raised in the winds, I offer you this sacrifice of first fruits, ye mighty gods."
And then there are the gods of law: Stern Alia the Mother, Delleb the Sage, Heironeous the Knight, Daern the Builder.
edit-- Maybe add Zilchus? That might make Sense, as he's married to Sottilion.
His cult leaders (who might belong to some sort of grain merchants' confraternity or something like that) serve as a bridge between the Law Gods who patronize the guilds, town merchants, and nobles on the one hand, and the wind/nature gods most often called upon by the rural population.
The 1983 Guide's alignment map shows the Scarlet Brotherhood lands as LN, not as LE.
Maybe that's because the vast majority of the ordinary citizens and slaves aren't evil? Perhaps only the SB leadership and its most cold-blooded, ruthless operatives are evil as a rule? It could also just be a misprint. Heck, maybe my copy of the '83 box includes typos or misprints that other printings do not include.
Well, note that only the Tilva Plateau itself is said to be lawful neutral, which is the region where the monks would be at their strongest. I guess the implication is that was the only densely inhabited area, the rest of the Tilvanot Peninsula given the same dark color as the Amedio and Hepmonaland Jungles, the Sea of Dust, and the various mountain ranges.
I think generally an evil enough leadership would be enough to mark a region as evil. As Gygax said in the 1983 Guide, "Those [nations] tinged with gray are devoted to evil, or tend toward it. Travelers move through these areas at some risk to their lives. Medium areas should be entered with some caution, but are safer and more tolerant than dark areas." It seems like the combination of malign laws and police/military willing to enforce them would make the region sufficiently dangerous to trigger an evil alignment for the nation. If the Scarlet Brotherhood is effectively lawful neutral, I don't think having a non-evil citizenry and slave caste would be sufficient; they must also have an active resistance to the laws they pass, or perhaps some kind of bureaucratic constipation preventing their will from being done.
To put it another way, if the Scarlet Brotherhood as a nation isn't predominantly evil but its leadership is, the leadership must be a conspicuously ineffective one.
I think the description of the Scarlet Brotherhood as a group that is "purported to espouse the Suloise as the rightful rulers of all the Flanaess, claiming superiority of that race above all others, and embracing evil as the only hope of achieving its ends," plus the description of an assassin caste and "humanoid legions which are being readied for future conquest" makes it unlikely that they were intended as a lawful neutral nation. The Scarlet Brotherhood is not "safer and more tolerant" than evil nations like Aerdy and the Horned Society. I mean, it might be somewhat safer to those who enter with permission, presuming their thieves and assassins simply murder unsanctioned criminals, but it's certainly not more tolerant. I think their identification as such on the alignment map is simply a mistake.
Len Lakofka's "Gods of the Suloise Pantheon" articles describe Syrul and Pyremius as the primary patrons of the Scarlet Brotherhood, but also mention that Wee Jas is popularly worshiped there.
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I wonder if that Almor table to map mismatch means that Gygax always intended it (Almor) really should be a more or less Lawful Good sort of place, and the alignment map includes a misprint or alternate version? If so, then his later rremarks about Heironeous and Almor make perfect sense.
It's hard to say. Bastion of Faith had the ancient Kingdom of Thalland, founded by a Heironeous-worshiping Oeridian tribe, in roughly the location of modern Almor for whatever that's worth. I believe Living Greyhawk had Almor ruled by an ecumenical council representing a variety of gods.
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IIRC, the same Gods of the Suloise articles that establish Wee Jas as a god worshipped in the Pale also establish Kord as a god worshipped in Almor.
Yes, in Dragon #87. "Thriving churches dedicated to [Kord] can be found in the Barbarian States, northern Ulek, Almor, the Great Kingdom, Hepmonaland, and on Lendore Isle." I wouldn't necessarily read that to mean that Kord is Almor's primary patron, but that's a valid interpretation, especially if you read Almor as predominantly chaotic good.
I would definitely add Pelor to the neutral good roster, and probably Trithereon to the chaotic goods. I think Rao is more interesting as a regional patron of the Old Ferrond area, but technically he's said to be a common deity and among the most popular deities of Nyrond, so Rao is also a possibility among the lawful goods.
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It might be cool if the ''Wind Gods" were worshipped under the open sky in Almor, with small rural shrines erected in their honor. Telchur gets honor along with his sisters, but he's the odd man out (as he is in some stories about the family). Father Velnius oversees all from his house above the clouds.
Living Greyhawk named Atroa, Wenta, Telchur, Sotillion, and Velnius collectively as the "Velaeri." Supposedly Merikka is their cousin.
I'm inclined to read the LN Tilva Plateau as a misprint.
Still, it might be interesting to see a not so bad version of the Scarlet Brotherhood. The several unpleasant things about the SB you mention are only "purported" to be so, in the Guide. Some of those things could turn out to be exaggerated rumors, even false reports.
Later, though, those things are all confirmed, of course. The SB has changed in different incarnations, but it's been consistently evil since, what, the Slavelords mods and the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun?
A LN Scarlet Brotherhood no doubt belongs in the Heresy section.
FWIW, my take on that alignment map is that the Scarlet Brotherhood is publicly Lawful Neutral. The monks don't reveal their full evilness until the Wars.
FWIW, my take on that alignment map is that the Scarlet Brotherhood is publicly Lawful Neutral. The monks don't reveal their full evilness until the Wars.
FWIW, my take on that alignment map is that the Scarlet Brotherhood is publicly Lawful Neutral. The monks don't reveal their full evilness until the Wars.
Or perhaps, the PEOPLE are largely LN. It's their government that is evil.
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