In this thread we will look at some of the options that we have to replace "silly" names that appear in Greyhawk that refer to the real world in some inelegant way. This project includes both the Flanaess and Oerth in general.
Now let's take a look at the first offenders.
The Flanaess is not that bad.
Al'Akbar is a Baklunish deity. The name is too real, which refers either to Allahu Akbar (God is great) or Al'Akhbar (the news) in Arabic. We need to get rid of this not-so-original name.
Outside the Flanaess the problem is worse.
We have Nippon. I've noticed that players always smirk at this. It has to go.
Erypt is bad too.
Zindia?
My suggestions:
Al'Rabak, an anagram, would work better. Very unoriginal, but an improvement.
Nippon is Rokugan.
Erypt is The Kingdom of Agayock (Agayoc means "good, righteous" in Coptic).
Your basic point is right on the mark. The labels for locations and objects can often carry too much real world baggage and restrict development of the fictional environment. But for many, Greyhawk is beloved because a lot of real world notions and cliches come together with features from real world fairy tales and stories. It would be easy to get rid of the "1,001 Arabian Nights" desert genre and replace it with a "Fantasy Mad Max" desert genre - but sometimes people want to use the turban heavy, flying carpet, genie-fest.
For another campaign, I really focus on using generic names for equipment and new names for monsters to limit reference to historical examples and cultures and to keep things from getting predictable for players who already know the game inside and out.
Halberd = Footman's Staff
Voulge + Lochaber Axe = Cleaver Staff (long and standard versions)
Rapier = Stylus Sword ("rapier" just keeps making me think of guys with bad french accents and plumes in their hats)
Khopesh = Hook Blade
Glaives, Naginatas, Nagimakis = Staff Sword
Etc, etc., I've got long lists of these things for that other campaign.
Changing the easy things - name, origin and backstory, alignment, favored terrain, etc., you can create a new campaign and still use the old stat blocks and monsters without the difficulty of coming up with completely new monsters.
So what is your Greyhawk? For some, just having dragons be any alignment without regard to their color or metal is telling your players that they're not in Greyhawk anymore. For others, Greyhawk is where the small humanoids that yell "Bree Yark!" are called goblins and not spitelings. Ultimately, its the labels that you choose as DM that will determine how your Greyhawk is viewed by your players. (Who then promptly get their characters to 20th level and remake "your" world into theirs.)
Tal Meta put a region called the Sunela Coast in the "Zindia" region, archived here on Canonfire. He presented it as a sort of mixed-race region dominated by people of Suel descent.
I think the Dragon Annual #1 map of Oerth could do with a lot more thought and nuance. Positioned between "Zindia" and the Amedio Jungle, I'd expect some Central American and Indian influence from the mainland in the same way that Great Britain has French and Germanic influence. At least, it'd seem more realistic and interesting to me if there were. Likewise, I'd expect some Celestial Imperium influence in Erypt rather than just cut-and-pasting random cultures in random parts of the world, at random latitudes, and not having them interact at all, as if Oerth was a Dadaist cut-up piece and every nation had impregnable walls around it.
As far as canon or semi-canon goes, the article "Greyhawk 2000" in Dragon #277 seems to have renamed "Nippon" as Ryuujin. At least, it mentions an advanced nation called Ryuujin far to the south, seemingly named after the Japanese god of the sea. Perhaps Ryuujin is the local name for Xerbo.
If you're okay with stealing names from the Sagard the Barbarian books, Nippon could be the Hydrianian Islands and Erypt could be the Desert of Fex.
The name "Cup and Talisman of Al'Akbar" has an old enough history within the D&D game that I wouldn't want to rename it, but I can see a strong case for removing Al'Akbar as a god and just having the Baklunish worship the rest of the pantheon. It'd make the Baklunish lands feel like less of an obvious Muslim parallel. It seems to have been the original intent for Al'Akbar to be the name of a mortal priest associated with the item, not a deity. In its original appearance in The Strategic Review Vol. 2, #2, The Cup and Talisman of Al'Akbar were explicitly associated with Allah.
Quote:
This very puissant and holy item is usable only by Dervishes, Rangers, and Paladins. It consists of a golden cup chased with platinum and mithril filigree and many jewels of great price. Lying in the bowl of the chalice is a platinum talisman engraved with an eight-pointed star, and the name of Allah in Kufic script, which is attached to a golden chain with platinum and silver beadwork
Gary Holian's 2003 "Paladins of Greyhawk" article in Dungeon #104 introduced the name Al'Asran, "a being bathed in sunlight," for Al'Akbar's patron. According to the author, Al'Asran was meant to be the Baklunish name for Pelor.
If you do want to rename it, the Necromancer Games module K4 The Coils of Set had a pretty blatant version of the Cup of Al'Akbar in it that it called the Chalice of Aldren.
If you want a lawful good fantasy creator deity, the creator of the genies, Anumon, acts as a stand-in for Allah in Necromancer Games' City of Brass boxed set.
In this thread we will look at some of the options that we have to replace "silly" names that appear in Greyhawk that refer to the real world in some inelegant way...
-Linguistics was not one of E Gary Gygax's gifts. His idea of creative linguistics was spelling peoples' names backwords.
Sutemi wrote:
...Al'Rabak, an anagram, would work better. Very unoriginal, but an improvement...
...which would be "The Disordered." Well, that's unfortunate. Maybe Al Rabaq "The Tether" would work for a Lawful deity?
The Scarlet brotherhood does have a rudimentary Suel dictionary that would help for Suel places. Maybe other languages could receive the same treatment. I'm taking about you, Hookhill...
Sutemi wrote:
...Al'Akbar is a Baklunish deity. The name is too real, which refers either to Allahu Akbar (God is great) or Al'Akhbar (the news) in Arabic...
-It literally means "The Greatest." Maybe it's Muhammad Ali.
rasgon wrote:
... I can see a strong case for removing Al'Akbar as a god and just having the Baklunish worship the rest of the pantheon. It'd make the Baklunish lands feel like less of an obvious Muslim parallel...
-Most of the Flaneass has a medieval Christian feel, so I've never had a problem with it. Besides, it makes it easier to explain to newbies.
rasgon wrote:
Tal Meta put a region called the Sunela Coast in the "Zindia" region, archived here on Canonfire. He presented it as a sort of mixed-race region dominated by people of Suel descent.
I believe Nippon is "Niphos" on Tal Meta's map, by the way. The Huuncha League seems to be the northern portion of the same archipelago, called the Huuncha Isles. Niphos seems to be a southern nation among the same isles. The Huuncha are hobgoblins (hochebi in Suloise) formerly enslaved to the Niphosians.
In my (unfinished ) write-up for the Oerth Journal "Beyond the Flanaess" issue I explained the name Nippon as being a corruption by Heward of the Zindian name for the inhabitants of those islands, Nehpandi, which in the Zindian language means "fish-eyed" since the Nehpandi nobility are descended from Malenti. Their own name for themselves is Khulmehyi.
This is one bandwagon that will pass me by. I do not care much for political correctness or worry that a game may offend someone...
-As I pointed out, I personally don't have any problem with the Bakluni = Islam thing, or the occasional substitution of Latin for Oeridian. FWIW, I'll stick with "Al Akbar." But there is a lot more to this than the PC aspects. I've always thought that place and personl names were the weakest part of the WOG.
As the original "sandbox", it evolved as a cultural checkerboard to experiment with various touchstones. Personally; I feel this is part of its overall charm.
Al'Akbar of Cup and Talisman fame is too interwoven into the Flanaess to be easily rewritten. Otherwise; those beyond are more open to being renamed.
Rasgon has cited the magazine references and its context. Involved in the beyond project, currently I am working on the Holy Kingdom of Erypt. Rereading the Desert of Desolation modules, lack any actual national names and so it remains viable. Placed its locations on a "paint" continental map, which I will forward to the OJ staff.
Anna B Meyer; has defined the "Sunlea Coast, and the OJ likes the Sunlea Sea, got to love alliteration, as Ryuujin has replaced Nippon. Of course; Rokugan might simply be wizard of the coast missing a magazine issue. Perhaps; this board could find a means to combine the 3.5 sourcebook, good material and the magazine write-up.
Off topic; I emailed her about missing cities and features within the Baklunish Islands. Gleamed from LGG and conversations with Armenfast, a regional triad member. Whether; it results in a revision remains unresolved.
...I personally don't have any problem with the Bakluni = Islam thing, or the occasional substitution of Latin for Oeridian.'
I rather loathe it, though mainly for creative reasons. Somebody bothers to take the time to create a 90% unique background...with the other 10% being a cut-n-paste job from real world stuff? At that point, why the heck would one not just imagine that final 10%? That just bugs me. They should have at least Al-Qadimed (nice enough Arabian fantasy) the Baklunish. Instead they go Islam/Hegira/Sunni-Shia- the whole sha-bang. About the same level of "creativity" for the Olmec, and to some extent the Thilonrian Suel. Those three areas are Greyhawk's "Triumvirate of Evil" to me. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I rather loathe it, though mainly for creative reasons. ...About the same level of "creativity" for the Olmec, and to some extent the Thilonrian Suel. Those three areas are Greyhawk's "Triumvirate of Evil" to me.
...and Pholtians and Cuthbertines aren't parodies of Christians (except they are), and St. Cuthbert isn't a direct rip-off of St. Cuthbert, down to his Northumbrian identity nailed with the bonnet/tam-o-shanter...
Fair enough; everyone has areas that fail to entice them. Nonetheless; the checkerboard nature provides several options. Everybody can find a corner to play.
I like the linguistic answer for Ryuujin and Rokugan, no expert on suloise or hobgoblin the societies that mostly interact with them. Sunlea Coast and Huuncha League. Perhaps; a translator could let us know if either could be derived from them.
Although; the SB has penetrated the Pearl Sea. Perhaps an adventure hook could be a independent suloise explorer inspired by shogun. After all; sea tales and tattered maps are gaming staples.
I rather loathe it, though mainly for creative reasons. ...About the same level of "creativity" for the Olmec, and to some extent the Thilonrian Suel. Those three areas are Greyhawk's "Triumvirate of Evil" to me.
...and Pholtians and Cuthbertines aren't parodies of Christians (except they are), and St. Cuthbert isn't a direct rip-off of St. Cuthbert, down to his Northumbrian identity nailed with the bonnet/tam-o-shanter...
Yes, St. Cuthbert is another, but being one thing he's just cringe-worthy. The ones I mentioned encompass nearly the entirety of their subject matter, which is quite substantial, and so are worthy of the double facepalm.
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) write-up for the Oerth Journal "Beyond the Flanaess" issue I explained the name Nippon as being a corruption by Heward of the Zindian name for the inhabitants of those islands, Nehpandi, which in the Zindian language means "fish-eyed" since the Nehpandi nobility are descended from Malenti. Their own name for themselves is Khulmehyi.
