Canonfire! Forums-viewtopic-Nalbon Gellor (Gordhawk)

Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:33 pm Nalbon Gellor (Gordhawk)

My player has a PC who is a (very junior ranking-) intelligence operative of the Duke Nebon Gellor of Artonsamay, late in 576 CY. As part of the character creation process, we decided that at some point he had an "advanced" (top-notch) instructor (see D&D 3.0 Hero-Builder's Guide). I've decided that that instructor would be Nalbon Gellor, Gord's future mentor, the cousin of Countess Bellisica (Saga of Old City, p. 236), and, by extension, cousin of the Duke of Artonsamay (Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, p. 26). Nalbon obviously works in the Bandit Kingdoms (being a master thief in Stoink), and is an agent of the Countess of Urnst, the Duke of Urnst, the King of Nyrond, and Delleb only knows who else, so I think he's a good fit.

When Nalbon Gellor met Gord ca. the Spring of 579, he was a high level bard, which in AD&D1 terms, would have made him at least a Ftr5/Thief 5/Brd1 (see Saga of Old City; in D&D 3.5, XPs for levels stack- see how the rulers in the LGG are modified, so he'd be at least Ftr5/Rog1/Brd1). His buddy, Curley Greenleaf, was a Drd10/Rgr8 (in D&D 3.5 terms, that would be something like a Drd 10/Rgr 2). They are near contemporaries (they started out serving in the Gamboge together), so in Spring 579, Gellor would probably have been at least a 10th level (D&D 3.5 terms), perhaps Ftr5/Rog3/Brd2, probably higher? Doing some reverse engineering, Nalbon Gellor might not have been a bard yet as of late 576 CY?

I seriously doubt that our PC and Nalbon are going to be close adventuring buddies (our PC just made 2nd level), but some background would be nice if Nalbon checks in on his former student, in case they ever actually do some sort of mission together, and just to have a complete background in case any questions come up.

I assume Nalbon's age was between his late 30s to his early 50s in 579. Since Nalbon Gellor is an obvious Mary Sue for EG Gygax, maybe he'd be 47 years of age? Making him 44 or 45 in late 576 CY?

Is there any mention in later Gordhawk about how and when Nablon lost his eye in the first place? Maybe he lost it in an unfortunate training accident with our PC Wink

. Is there anything else in later Gordhawk, or anywhere else, about Nablon Gellor and his background?

Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:08 pm

Jason Zavoda's Gellor citations. He seems to assume that Nebon and Nalbon Gellor are the same person.

In D&D 3.5, Gellor would be a Fochlucan lyrist.

Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:21 am

The BK Triad agreed with Jason that they are the same person and assumed the spelling difference was either a typo or a way of differentiating which version appeared in the Gord novels.

Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:21 am

BTW, A bard's minimum stat's in AD&D1: 15 S, 15 D, 10 C, 12 I, 15 W, 15 Ch.

Sun Mar 06, 2016 12:47 am

When they say Gellor is high level bard, they mean bard levels, not total character levels. In 1E terms he would be somewhere in the range of F 5-7/T 5-9/Bard 14+ (he certainly isn't a Bard 1 with practically no Bard training). Translating to 3E, you could cut those crazy levels down a bit to something like F2/T3/Dr2/Bd3+/FL6+ (the latter PrC as rasgon suggests), which is still nasty. Mind you, they guy wasn't exactly leveling up a whole lot before he went to face Gravestone and a couple demon lords. Gellor is at the least a very high level character when Gord meets him, and thereafter enters the realm of Epic character status. As to him being listed as a F 9, he could just be passing himself off as a simple Fighter, when in fact he is much more than that.

Curly Greenleaf is likely behind Gellor in total 1E class levels, but he is able to cast Chariot of Sustarre, and so he's at least a 12th level Druid at that time, which would also make him about 11th level as a Ranger. You could make him a 3E Ranger 4/Druid 11, which gives access to the spells he uses in the books, while also retaining a moderate amount of Ranger capability. He can fight well enough, but he'd rather be using his druid magic, and this represents what he prefers to do strategy-wise in the books. I wouldn't say that he would have achieved Epic level character status at any point though. Though he guided the them, he always came off as being less than the others, except in the area of magic.
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Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:39 am

Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:49 pm

Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:10 am

Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:03 pm

Just to stir the pot here, when comparing 1E characters, one must compare XP totals, not class levels. Curley Greenleaf as a Druid/Ranger 10/8 would have about 300,000 total XP. A bard with equal XP would be about 11th level, depending on how far he'd advanced as a fighter and thief. To further illustrate, here are both characters at various points in their respective careers; I'm assuming that Gellor reached maximum levels as fighter and thief:

Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:57 am

By Come Endless Darkness, Curley is a D13/R10-11, whereas Gellor is at a level on par with the most skilled of bards...*period*. As *the* most skilled of bards will be 23rd level, I think it is reasonable to say that one considered to be among the most skilled of bards will be level 20+. It is before Come Endless Darkness that Gellor gains the Kanteel. Here is a statement that is a bit more telling than Chert's comment about Gellor's bardic ability:

"The fabled Rhymers of the Blackfens, those northern mages who with kanteel and verse wrought world-shaking dweomers, might exceed the troubador's own ability in magic. On the other hand, it was in that land of snow and ice that Gellor had won his own kanteel and brought back great spells for his own repertoire. Gord doubted that any of the great druidic bards would care to challenge the one-eyed troubador to a contest of skill in that vein. Perhaps Gellor was as great as any man or elf, then, when it came to the weaving of spells by music and verse."

So, these powerful, specialized music mages can best Gellor at music magic, but he apparently either worked them over or impressed them enough for him to *win* [not find, but *WIN*] his very own fabled instrument from that land of fabled music mages, and Gord doubts that any of the 20+ level druidic bards (I'll give a 4 level spread to mean the "greatest" of them) would care to challenge Gellor (because he would OWN them), meaning Gellor is a certifiably high level bardic bad-arse. Mind you that Gellor has achieved this level of ability when Curley is "merely" an Archdruid, which would make Curley a D13/R10-11 (still powerful, but not anywhere near on par to a character ranging in level from F5+/T5+/B20+). That is how the levels work out...but both characters would actually have roughly the same total number of XP (more than 1,800,000), if one wants to use equivalency as the rod of comparison for the two.

And so Gellor is not just a high level character, but a high level BARD, which makes him an *extremely* high level character. He really doesn't have much more, if any more, XP than Curley does. As I said, Gellor is very much downplayed throughout most of the series. It is only in the last two books that more is revealed about his true capabilities, and they are far beyond what is mentioned, or even hinted at, prior to the last two books. It just wouldn't do to have Gellor be able to use most of the magic Curley does, fight better than Curley does, have more esoteric knowledge than Curley does (plus everything else he can do that Curley can't) overshadowing Curley early on. Curley needs to have more than just being slightly better than Gellor at druidic magic and at being bald, so Gellor is purposely downplayed, such that Curley comes off as the leader of the earlier group.
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Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:24 pm

Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:13 pm

Well, Heward is a 20th level bard, and it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that he's the most skilled bard currently extant (he doesn't have to be, but setting the quasi-deity of bards up as the best bard currently around sounds like a reasonable position to take). While the 1st edition Player's Handbook has rules for bards up to 23rd level, that doesn't mean that 23rd level bards actually currently exist on the world of Oerth. Perhaps that should be reserved for PCs to strive for as they rise to take their places among the greatest of heroes.

I'm reminded of the discussion on the WotC boards a decade ago where some people were criticizing the official stats for demon lords for being so much weaker than a 60 HD advanced balor, while one of the Paizo staffers (James Jacobs, I think) replied that just because the rules allow for 60 HD advanced balors that doesn't mean they should actually exist in most campaigns.

Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:34 pm

See this thread for GtR timeline discussion, as it highlights particular dates that coincide with events in the books: http://www.canonfire.com/cf//modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4270

And no, I don't think Gellor went up 19+ bard levels in 6 years, as you would have him doing. It is reasonable for him to go up from 14-16th level to the astronomical level he ends at in that period of time. It takes a lot to adventuring to gain levels at that height of power. For comparison, it took our PCs 2 years of game time to go through all of GDQ, and the characters went from 9th-10th level to 12th-13th level. Six modules, with literally hundreds of higher XP things to deal with, netted 2.5-3 levels per character, and we not only pretty much gutted everything in the G123-D1 parts, but accomplished further craziness in the D2-Q parts, like wiping out three drow households, balors, marliths, many lesser demons, one greater and some lesser daemons, Lolth...

...and the characters got 2-3 levels. Gellor isn't doing such things, constantly, for a 6-year period. He is likely only doing the equivalent of that in all of the 6-year period, which isn't enough to bring him from a Bard 1 all the way up to Bard 20+, where he ends up.

Sorry if Gellor having such a high bard level rubs you the wrong way, but that is what it should be. It is entirely reasonable to have Gellor with 14-16 bard levels when Gord meets him in 579. This still has Gellor gaining...wait for it... more than 1,000,000 XP in that six-year period. That makes for a lot of dead bad guys/goals accomplished in that amount of time.
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Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:21 pm

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