Besides some of the hero-deities in Living Greyhawk Journal #3, I found two other deities that didn't make it on the list:
Kazakh: A LE deity of wealth and trickery worshipped by monks in Hepmonaland. Sort of like Tezcatlipoca, but LE ("The Leopard Men", Dungeon Magazine #22, p. 15).
Red Fox: A CG Rover deity, simlar to the American Indian Coyote, but CG ("Ghost Dance", Dungeon Magazine #32, p. 62).
Assuming that these are demi gods or hero deities would explain their relative obscurity, although Red Fox, semi-omniscience might make him a very obscure lesser god.
I seem to remember Chaav and Urbanus being in one of the D&D 3.5 expansion books, but I've never seen them for Greyhawk. Same thing for some of the non-human deities. I've never heard of Ayailla, Cas, Estanna, Lastai, or Phieran.
Zol Darklock comes from castle Greyhawk. Nuff' said.
I find a few missing from both lists... Akwamon: Len Lakofka’s lost deity, the son of Xerbo and Osprem… Dorgha Torgu: Gygax’s fallen Baklunish deity...
-Oh yeah. I Forgot them.
DMPrata wrote:
I find a few missing from both lists... Baalzephon/“Baalzy”: the false deity of the Great Kingdom ...most demons and devils, the slaad lords, and the elemental princes of evil.
-Yeah, them too. A whole overlooked category. They're generally lesser gods by default. Off the cuff, wasn't Baalzy a devil, but not necessarily a prince?
DMPrata wrote:
I find a few missing from both lists... Sarthis: yuan-ti deity from Treasures of Greyhawk...
-I have Treasures of Greyhawk, but I missed that one...
DMPrata wrote:
I find a few missing from both lists... Apocatequil and Xilonen:[/b] mentioned in Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan...
...ditto. After checking to make sure it wasn't just an alternate name for an already listed deity, it looks like Apocatequil was Inca, not Mesoamerican.
DMPrata wrote:
St. Bane: from DRAGON #79
-Is he considered a deity in his own right, now? That was the same article that introduced Ceril and Kargoth, IIRC. Last time I checked, Bane was still a servant for Pelor, Ceril for Pholtus (or was it St. Cuthbert?), and Kargoth is one of Demogorgon's death knights (there were two Dragon articles detailing each of them).
DMPrata wrote:
I find a few missing from both lists...Ereshkigal: from Return to the Keep on the Borderlands
I seem to remember Chaav and Urbanus being in one of the D&D 3.5 expansion books, but I've never seen them for Greyhawk. Same thing for some of the non-human deities. I've never heard of Ayailla, Cas, Estanna, Lastai, or Phieran.
Yeah, it depends on how expansive a view you have of what "Greyhawk" is. By the "generic 3.0 and 3.5 stuff are loosely Greyhawk" metric, they belong on the list, but of course, you're not required to use them in your own campaign by any means.
But if you need/want some new minor demigods, these are available and not claimed by any other campaign setting. Some of them have canonical connections to those Greyhawk gods used in core 3.x products. Some of them could be used as gods of distant lands beyond the Flanaess, or they might be variant aspects of more familiar gods. Or you could ignore them entirely.
Book of Vile Darkness: Karaan, Rallaster, the Patient One, Scahrossar, the Xammux, Yeathan
Book of Exalted Deeds: Ayailla, Chaav, Estanna, Lastai, Phieran, Valarian
Deities & Demigods: Taiia, Elishar, Toldoth, Dennari
Frostburn: Aengrist, Hleid, Iborighu, Levistus, Telchur, Thrym, Vatun
Heroes of Horror: Cas
Libris Mortis: Afflux, Doresain, Evening Glory, Nerull, Orcus
Lords of Madness: Aboleth pantheon: Bolothamogg, Holashner, Piscaethces, Shothotugg, Y'chak. Aberration deities: the Great Mother, Ilsensine, Mak Thuum Ngatha, the Patient One, Tharizdun
Races of Destiny: Urbanus, Zarus, the Illumian pantheon
Races of Stone and Races of the Wild also include some new nonhuman deities I'm not going to bother typing out right now.
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Zol Darklock comes from castle Greyhawk. Nuff' said.
Other deities mentioned in WG7 include Genericus Brant the Universally Bland, Aunt Bee (demon queen of bees), and Su Shi (goddess of raw fish).
There are also some deities that only appear in Andre Norton's novel Quag Keep.
Last edited by rasgon on Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
Apocatequil and Xilonen: mentioned in Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan
The Scarlet Brotherhood (page 64) claims that Apocatequil is another name for Tezcatlipoca. I think that Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan is unclear whether Xilonen is supposed to be a true deity or merely the name of the polyp encountered in the dungeon. But both are worth mentioning for completeness's sake.
The gods mentioned in C1 The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan (1980) are a grab bag of Aztec and Maya deities, born of historical research without replicating a single real-world culture.
The "Olman pantheon" described in the wiki article (which I wrote) was my attempt at listing every Olman deity I could find mentioned in official sources, but it shouldn't be viewed as exhaustive or prescriptive. Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan mentions many deities that it leaves unnamed. The Olman pantheon detailed in The Scarlet Brotherhood (1999) is different in some ways from C1's, based more on other AD&D sources than on C1 and merging some deities treated as separate in C1.
For the wiki, I limited myself to gods specifically named in official sources, but noted where some of the unnamed gods closely resembled gods named elsewhere. In the articles for the gods themselves, I combined information found in Greyhawk sources with information on those gods found in other D&D sources (which makes the entry for Tlazoteotl seem schizophrenic, since the Living Greyhawk gods document calls her neutral but other D&D sources have her as chaotic evil).
It's not even clear, judging strictly from C1, if all of the gods mentioned there are intended to be viewed as gods or if they're just the names the local Olman gave to various kinds of monsters. The Scarlet Brotherhood offered a different, smaller pantheon and the Living Greyhawk Official Listing of Deities for Use in the Campaign attempted to combine the two sources through the lens of Erik Mona's personal campaign, ignoring other D&D sources on those deities.
For example, C1 has a room with a statue of Xipe, "our lord of flayed skins," which is a pretty obvious reference to the real Aztec deity Xipe Totec. Except in the module, Xipe is the name of an ogre mage who lives there. Was he named after the god? Does the existence of an ogre mage named Xipe imply that the Olman worship the god Xipe Totec? Who knows?
There's another room in C1 called "Bed of Xilonen," named after the real Aztec goddess Xilonen or Chicomecoatl. Except in C1, Xilonen is the name of a giant polyp worshiped as Xilonen. So does a real goddess by that name exist on Oerth or is it just the name of a polyp?
A room in C1 labeled "Tlazoteotl, mother goddess of the earth" contains a gibbering mouther. So is Tlazoteotl named after a real goddess, or is it just the name of the gibbering mouther? We know there are other cases of Olmans worshiping non-divine beings as gods. A "greater gibbering mouther" called Xuxeteanlahucuxolazapaminaco is god-king of a nation in the Amedio jungle, but isn't actually divine. The gargantuan ape Oonga is worshiped as a god on the Isle of the Ape, though he's just a big gorilla.
There's a mummified centaur in C1 identified as "the sacred offspring of Chitza-Atlan, the guardian of the gateway of the underworld." There's no historical deity with that name, and C1 doesn't claim that Chitza-Atlan is a deity (the mummy is said to be deferential to Zotz, the bat-god), but that didn't stop the Living Greyhawk Official Listing of Deities from including Chitza-Atlan as an Olman demigod. It's a valid interpretation, but not the only possible one.
Dungeon #209 says of the Olman, "Long ago, a human culture worshiped not only powers from the Astral Sea, but also a collection of primal spirits, fey creatures, vampires, and even monstrosities of the Far Realm... All that is currently left of the Olman civilization are the scattered tribes of their degenerated descendants, now prone to Demogorgon worship and savagery."
For these reasons, I recommend you read the wiki entry with a grain of salt at the ready. The more cohesive Aztec pantheon offered by David Schwartz in Dragon #352-358 is probably a better source than relying on Greyhawk-specific references. The wiki has my best attempt at describing the gods mentioned in official sources, but official sources don't imply that those are the only gods, and they can be contradictory and fragmentary anyway. So don't take the wiki as dogma.
As Cthulhudrew said, the Olman are pretty much just Aztecs (although they have a specific history on Oerth involving Demogorgon and the kopru destroying their civilization, and groups like the Tanaroans and the Atem are fantasy cultures based much less on any historical people), so any source on the Aztecs is going to be useful.
The Scarlet Brotherhood makes a few gods like Tlaloc and Camazotz particularly relevant to the Olman and their history, so you'd want to use them if you're making use of The Scarlet Brotherhood accessory. Many of the other gods could be used or not used depending on the needs of the campaign. For example, Huitzilopochtli was a major real-world Aztec god, but he's not specifically mentioned in any Greyhawk source. C1 may allude to him, but it's unclear. So do the Olman worship Huitzilopochtli? Basically, they do if you want them to.
Zol Darklock comes from castle Greyhawk. Nuff' said.
Other deities mentioned in WG7 include Genericus Brant the Universally Bland, Aunt Bee (demon queen of bees), and Su Shi (goddess of raw fish).
My favorite WG7 godling is Kayden, son of Kord. Lakofka's old Suel gods series set Kord up with literally hundreds of offspring and some few demigods, with which subsequent GH authors have done absolutely zilch. It's nice to see one get a mention in WG7 and his role and activities are appropriate for a serious campaign.
Lakofka's old Suel gods series set Kord up with literally hundreds of offspring and some few demigods, with which subsequent GH authors have done absolutely zilch.
I should note that Living Greyhawk Journal #3 mentioned that the half-orc hero-deity Nazarn was elevated to divinity by Kord after impressing a half-giant descendant of the Brawler.
Apocatequil and Xilonen: mentioned in Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan
The Scarlet Brotherhood (page 64) claims that Apocatequil is another name for Tezcatlipoca. I think that Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan is unclear whether Xilonen is supposed to be a true deity or merely the name of the polyp encountered in the dungeon...
...has Xilonen (A.K.A Chicomecoatl) is Tezcatlipoca's wife. I remember seeing somewhere that Apocatequil was an Inca deity. Perhaps Reynold's assumption was that Apocatequil was another name for Tezcatlipoca in the same way that Jupiter (Roman) was another name for Zeus (Greek). Of course, historically, the Inca/Mesoamerican relationship wasn't quite the same thing as the Roman/Greek relationship, but the Olman pantheon doesn't have to exactly follow our history.
rasgon wrote:
...There are also some deities that only appear in Andre Norton's novel Quag Keep.
-Fire away!
Maybe they could be explained as alternate names for other deities?
OK, finally sitting at my computer with my GH documents. Compiling GH's gods was probably my first pet project for the setting going back to '95. They're virtually limitless.
The Quag Keep deities are Landron and Om. Online fans in the Nineties made them both LN lesser gods of the "common" pantheon with a lowercase "c." Landron is Order, Winds, and Seasons. Om is Patterns and Totality of Action.
There's a Faranth "Nameless god" in Dungeon #83.
Dungeon #77 has nameless Lacothah and Torhoon gods.
Dungeon #84 has Huhueteotl - Lord of Fire.
#94 has Immshin, Master of Winds, an aspect, servant, or demigod of Obad-Hai.
Skip Williams added Vesperian, patron of the desmodus and lord of nocturnal fliers, in Deep Horizon. (Perhaps a rival of Raxivort? Or the sponsor of the horrible gargoyle subrace in WG9? j/k )
The new gods in Book of Vile Darkness (already mentioned) are totally awesome and perfect for more obscure GH cults.
Rob Kuntz has Nusu-Sa (a Sun God) and Aval (CN Volcanos, demons, fire, dwells on Qaf) in To the City of Brass (4). He has more gods in the Ice Grave module, but those are explicitly Kalibruhn.
Mentzer has more in his Aquaria sources.
The 3e Blackmoor sources could be pillaged.
Gygax created MANY post-TSR. A Mind Flayer god in Hall of Many Panes comes to mind, also Vilp-akf ’cho Rentaq and Dorgha Torgu. St Trowbane was a stand in for St Cuthbert, but a fan did a Trowbane write up that's too good not to use and they make a cool trinity with St Carmichael (see B1 & Weining's old Blackmoor article).
Many more in Dungeon mag, all of the CoB spinoffs (City of Brass, Sir Robilar's City of Brass, Fabled City of Brass, The Impossible Eye), Nineties online fanon (Sryndro!), Chainmail, Oerth Journal, Living Greyhawk, d20 products with GH references (Fast Forward Entertainment, Dreadmire, Crucible of Freya, etc.), 4e products with GH gods interacting with new gods, various "GH with the serial numbers scratched off" products, and the countless OSR POD's and convention mods (e.g. RC Pinnell's G4 has the stone giant god Rockfist Rockheart).
The Quag Keep deities are Landron and Om. Online fans in the Nineties made them both LN lesser gods of the "common" pantheon with a lowercase "c." Landron is Order, Winds, and Seasons. Om is Patterns and Totality of Action.
Landron was known as Landron-of-the-Inner-Light (page 20). On page 179, his cleric Deav Dyne refers to him as "Him Who Orders the Winds and the Seasons."
Quag Keep also mentioned a goddess called Thera, the Maned Lady (page 41), who was said to be worshiped by nomads. Some of her followers were known as Thera's Maidens.
Thera may be the same as the Unicorn/High Horned Lady/Horned Lady mentioned on pages 50 and 86, or the Horned Lady might be a separate goddess. The Horned Lady is referred to on page 151 as the Horned Lady of the Sword and Shield, and it's noted that her followers have the power of prophecy.
Temple of Tung (page 44). Unclear if Tung is a deity or a place name.
A group called the Fellowship of the Toad was mentioned on page 75, but this seems like a reference to Dave Arneson's Temple of the Frog, and/or Wastri. The Temple of the Frog is mentioned by that name on page 156; it's unclear if this is the same thing, but this time it's definitely a reference to Dave Arneson's scenario.
Powers of the Outer Dark: page 14. They seem to represent the forces of [Evil] Chaos. Also referred to as the Dark, and the Dark Ones.
Great Powers (page 19). Probably the same as the powers of the Outer Dark.
Lords of Law: page 77.
Lords of Chaos (page 117). Probably the same as the powers of the Outer Dark.
Ganclang (page 135). Uncertain if this is supposed to be a god or not, but a character swears by the Brazen Voice of Ganclang.
Faltforth the Suncrown (page 148). "As you say we do not face sand—for which may the abiding aid of Faltforth the Suncrown be praised!"
Page 110: notes on dragon religion. "A man, raised and trained in the precincts of one of the great temple-abbeys, would find consorting with the dragon-folk hard. Those of the scaled and winged kind owned no gods—or demons either. Their own judgment of right and wrong was not that of mankind, and their actions could not be foreseen or measured by those whom they considered lesser beings."
Om is mentioned on page 153: "Did not the priests of Om advance the belief that all action in the world, no matter how small and insignificant, had its part in the making of a pattern determined upon by Powers men could not even begin to fathom with their earthtied senses?" From the context, Om might be a place or philosophy rather than a deity, though this definitely describes a particular religion.
Landron could be another name for Pholtus, and Thera/the Horned Lady could be aspects of Ehlonna. Faltforth the Suncrown could be Pelor. Om could conceivably be Istus, or perhaps Tsolorandril. It's tempting to identify Ganclang with Clangeddin Silverbeard.
...There's a Faranth "Nameless god" in Dungeon #83.
Dungeon #77 has nameless Lacothah and Torhoon gods...
-"Nameless" could be an already known deity, just unknown to the author. 😉 I assumed that the Lacothah deity in "To Walk beneath the Waves" was Eadro in his Lacothah aspect, but there could be more than one Lacothah deity.
...#94 has Immshin, Master of Winds, an aspect, servant, or demigod of Obad-Hai.....
-I missed that one. Which adventure?
vestcoat wrote:
...Skip Williams added Vesperian, patron of the desmodus and lord of nocturnal fliers, in Deep Horizon. (Perhaps a rival of Raxivort? Or the sponsor of the horrible gargoyle subrace in WG9? j/k )...
-I'm not familiar with Deep Horizon. But Skip Williams? Ugh.
vestcoat wrote:
...RobKuntz has Nusu-Sa (a Sun God) and Aval (CN Volcanos, demons, fire, dwells on Qaf) in To the City of Brass (4)... A Mind Flayer god in Hall of Many Panes comes to mind, also Vilp-akf ’cho Rentaq...
-Those are new to me, although Nusu-Sa could be Pelor
rasgon wrote:
...Landron could be another name for Pholtus, and Thera/the Horned Lady could be aspects of Ehlonna. Faltforth the Suncrown could be Pelor. Om could conceivably be Istus, or perhaps Tsolorandril. It's temptingto identify Ganclang with Clangeddin Silverbeard.
To elaborate on this, Landron and Pholtus are both gods of order and light. The gods of the winds and seasons are all Oeridian, so it seems likely that "Him Who Orders the Winds and Seasons" is Oeridian as well, as Pholtus is. The seasons are literally ordered by the sun and moons, which Pholtus is patron of.
...There's a Faranth "Nameless god" in Dungeon #83. .
-"Nameless" could be an already known deity, just unknown to the author.
I assume the nameless god of the faranth is the Elder Elemental God. The description of the faranth in Dungeon #83 loosely fits with the description of the Elder Elemental God's early worshipers in Monster Mythology: "There are many tales of its being worshipped by elder races who may predate the coming of other gods and races to the Prime Material plane: these beings were shapechanging, polymorphous slime-beings of genius intelligence and uniformly evil nature. These ineffably vile spawns of evil were wiped out by the human and demihuman creator gods, save for a few places close to the core of a handful of worlds, where they are usually either in hibernation or gibbering insanely in the most desolate barrens." The faranth might also have worshiped Tharizdun, and I associate them with the pre-Flan "Nerull's Bane" culture (from Iuz the Evil), and the ancient builders of the ruins on Celene described in Greyspace (who, like the faranth, predated the modern races and were wiped out by asteroids).
Hu Jas, the elder brother of Wee Jas, in the errata of WG7. ;) _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
For one character of mine I renamed "Mage of the Arcane Order" to "Guildmage of Greyhawk" using the "chained demigod" explanation for the Guild's spellpool…
…with said "demigod" being Dorgha Torgu (as a nod to his absence).
I was also thinking of making Zol Darklock a missing son of High Prince Telamont Tanthul, "Lord Shadow" from the FORGOTTEN REALMS® (with "Darklock" being the Common-tongue translation of the Netherese "Tanthul"). The idea was that after the Fall of Netheril Tanthul sent a number of agents, including his own sons, into other worlds to recover powerful magic, leading Zol to Oerth and the Suel Imperium's "Power Magic" …only to be captured by Xodast.
It adds up pretty well, based on some timeline comparisons I've seen (notably 1369 DR = 585 CY, "Legacies of the Suel Imperium," DRAGON Magazine #241 November 1997, p.47).
Regarding Zol Darklock, note that "ad-Zol" was the surname of members of the ancient Sulose imperial house of Zolax in the Oerth Journal #1 timeline. The Scarlet Brotherhood accessory partly canonized this by naming the last emperor of the Suel "Ad-Zol."
Rob Kuntz has Nusu-Sa (a Sun God) and Aval (CN Volcanos, demons, fire, dwells on Qaf) in To the City of Brass (4). He has more gods in the Ice Grave module, but those are explicitly Kalibruhn.
Some more Kuntzian gods to make sure we don't lose track of them:
- "Y" and Malcanthet from the Maure Castle adventures (and perhaps Uncle if he achieved ascended/descended divinely)
- from Bottle City: Aza, Lolatho, Zirx, Phannon, N'Tee, and Yhyg
- the Lovecraftian mythos from the original Greyhawk campaign, and detailed more completely in Rob's article "Advent of the Elder Ones: Mythos vs. Man in the Lake Geneva Original Campaign, 1973-1976" in AFS#2 (2012); note: gives alt name for Lalatha in Bottle City
- Dark Druids and El Raja Key Archive list Tharizdun's original name as "Tharzdu'un" (originally inspired by CAS' Thaisidon)
* along with Crom, Odin, Zeus, and likely some others I'm not recalling off the top of my head
Icarus reminded me of Stratis the other day in chat, too.
David Prata's Deitybase files are in the process of being restored and updated at GreyhawkOnline.com too, FYI. The 5.0 versions are still available at http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/dmprata/
Allan. _________________ Allan Grohe<br />https://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html<br />https://grodog.blogspot.com/
If he is [was] an official deity for Western Oerik, then he's certainly an Oerth deity. Plus, if you're running a campaign before then, he could still be around.
On this:
Icarus wrote:
Interesting thing is that Stratis was around for over a thousand years, and did not die until 586 or 587 CY...[/quote]
...So, the first thing to keep in mind is that Living Greyhawk adventures were written and published by RPGA volunteers who administrated the campaign. While technically not canon, there remains a significant camp of folks that followed it for their home games as well as LG. Regarding the dates, this adventure took place in 599 CY, while the current year would be 602 CY.
Essentially, the premise of the adventure is that there were forces allied against the mortal realm (Iuz and Malcanthet amongst them), and specifically against the Shield Lands. This was what began the push against them, and the PCs were critical in organizing the offensive to regain the Shield Lands. And obviously, Stratis played big in that. - it's basically him that sends the PCs on their mission to help the Shield Lands...
I must have overlooked this the first time I read it. Stratis was killed in 588 or 589 (CY), but was instrumental in liberating the Shield Lands in the 590s? Did Stratis make it back?
Some more Kuntzian gods to make sure we don't lose track of them:
- "Y" and Malcanthet from the Maure Castle adventures (and perhaps Uncle if he achieved ascended/descended divinely)
- from Bottle City: Aza, Lolatho, Zirx, Phannon, N'Tee, and Yhyg
- the Lovecraftian mythos from the original Greyhawk campaign, and detailed more completely in Rob's article "Advent of the Elder Ones: Mythos vs. Man in the Lake Geneva Original Campaign, 1973-1976" in AFS#2 (2012); note: gives alt name for Lalatha in Bottle City
Apocatequil and Xilonen: mentioned in Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan
The Scarlet Brotherhood (page 64) claims that Apocatequil is another name for Tezcatlipoca. I think that Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan is unclear whether Xilonen is supposed to be a true deity or merely the name of the polyp encountered in the dungeon. But both are worth mentioning for completeness's sake.
Quick question-are the Olman gods real-life Mesoamerican gods, or were they actually created by the module writers? I'm not a fan of using real-life deities in Greyhawk. Canon isn't even consistent on it-given that the Flan are essentially pretty much Native Americans, it's kind of odd that they get their own pantheon of original gods while all the Olman deities are taken from real life.
Quick question-are the Olman gods real-life Mesoamerican gods, or were they actually created by the module writers? I'm not a fan of using real-life deities in Greyhawk. Canon isn't even consistent on it-given that the Flan are essentially pretty much Native Americans, it's kind of odd that they get their own pantheon of original gods while all the Olman deities are taken from real life.
Short answer: Yes. The published Olman deities are interpretations of historical Mesoamerican gods. I’m OK with their appropriation, given that they’re supposedly alien beings from a parallel Prime anyway.
Quick question-are the Olman gods real-life Mesoamerican gods
Most of them are, except for Chitza-Atlan (who the original module didn't claim as a deity).
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it's kind of odd that they get their own pantheon of original gods while all the Olman deities are taken from real life.
It is odd, and the reason is that C1 was written by Harold Johnson and Jeff R. Leason, not Gygax, and only loosely shoehorned into the World of Greyhawk. The Olman don't really belong in the setting. I'm not saying it's bad to put them there, just that they're not part of the original design and they don't fit in as well as other races. In the 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set and From the Ashes, the inhabitants of the Amedio and Hepmonaland are Suel. It wasn't until the 1998 revival that designers started to take C1 seriously as part of the campaign and incorporate the Olman in earnest.
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-given that the Flan are essentially pretty much Native Americans,
You could interpret them that way, but Gygax said he based them on Africans. See his ENWorld Q&A:
Col_Pladoh at ENworld in 2002 wrote:
I can say that the Flan were not meant to be anything like the American Indians. they were of Hamatic-like racial origin, Negroes if you will. Little is known of them because they were generally absorbed into the waves of other peoples immigrating eastwards through the continent, so their culture was generally lost.
The description of Flan traits seems more Ethiopian than any sort of Amerind to me, although I could see it either way.
I also think the unmixed/typical Baklunish are described as looking a lot more like Central Asian peoples than like Arabs.
Oeridians seem Mediterranean. Berbers, Syrians, Maltese, Greeks, etc.
I don't necessarily interpret the classic, pure Suel as 'Nordic.' Some Suel have kinky hair, which sounds right for a people which may have a tropical origin. And the savages in Amedio freckle heavily to the point of looking quite different from Suel populations that settled in temperate lands, right.
Maybe the original 'pure' Suel looked like Papuan albinos?
Or northern Europeans with Afro-textured hair?
Do Ice/Frost/Snow barbarians grow dreds?
My impression is that the common Oerid-Suel mixes comes out looking like 'European.'
... Canon isn't even consistent on it-given that the Flan are essentially pretty much Native Americans, it's kind of odd that they get their own pantheon of original gods while all the Olman deities are taken from real life.
-Some yeah, some not. Mostly up north. The Rovers and the Coltens are like northern Plains Indians (there was that adventure in Dungeon Magazine that made it sort of explicit). Carl Sargent had a note, on the fall of Tenh, referencing Tenhese message runners getting killed by Fisters before they could warn anyone. This sounds a lot like he Inka.
The Old Faith druids are reminiscent of the Celts, and Geoff comes off as Welsh (Celt = Cymric/British).
CULTURALLY, the Flann are a mix. On the other hand, Flann LOOK Hamitic.
Same deal with the Suel. The Imperium comes off as Roman (or maybe Numeenorean or Atlantean), but they look Nordic, except for a trend to curly or kinky hair. S K Reynolds (or was it Carl Sargent?) made the Touv blue-eyed Bantu. The culture doesn't match the look. I think E G Gygax once mentioned that some of that was deliberate. They're fantasy races, after all.
I tend to see the Suel as a mixture of the real life Aryan peoples and what the Nazis thought the Aryan people were like (of course that opinion's colored by the Scarlet Brotherhood's existence).
The Olman don't really belong in the setting. I'm not saying it's bad to put them there, just that they're not part of the original design and they don't fit in as well as other races. In the 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set and From the Ashes, the inhabitants of the Amedio and Hepmonaland are Suel. It wasn't until the 1998 revival that designers started to take C1 seriously as part of the campaign and incorporate the Olman in earnest.
We’ve had the name Olman from the Olman Islands since 1980. The Folio and Guide describe the Amedio as populated by “tribes of cannibal savages — some purportedly of Suloise extraction or admixture.” (Hepmonaland is nigh completely ignored in those early sources.) So, the groundwork was there for a race distinct from the Suel; they just weren’t fleshed out until the later products you cited.
So, the groundwork was there for a race distinct from the Suel;
Sure, there's room for any number of new races in distant corners of the Oerth, and it's not unreasonable to call one the Olman after the isles. But instead of creating a people similar to the Suel, Oeridians, and Flan—fantasy races with original pantheons of gods—we got a race who worshiped actual Mesoamerican gods.
I'm just explaining why that is: it's because they're from sort of a marginal module penned by other authors and not really part of Gygax's design. If he had designed the Olman himself they might have been very different, less explicit copies of Mesoamerican peoples.
Again, I'm not saying that including the Olman as they are is bad, but the design philosophy behind them is noticeably different from the design philosophy behind the races of the Flanaess. I'm not a purist who insists on an Oerth solely designed by Gygax by any means, but in this case it's very evident that they're the work of others.
Quick question-are the Olman gods real-life Mesoamerican gods . . . given that the Flan are essentially pretty much Native Americans,
You could interpret them that way, but Gygax said he based them on Africans. See his ENWorld Q&A:
Col_Pladoh at ENworld in 2002 wrote:
I can say that the Flan were not meant to be anything like the American Indians. they were of Hamatic-like racial origin, Negroes if you will. Little is known of them because they were generally absorbed into the waves of other peoples immigrating eastwards through the continent, so their culture was generally lost.
Cheers,
Gary
I don't know if I forgot this or never learned it, but in returning to CF!/GH, I have found the assertion fascinating, and not recalling the definition for Hamites, Hamitic, or Hamatic peoples, I started with Wikipedia, which begins:
Hamites is the name formerly used for some North African peoples by Eurocentric anthropologists in the context of a now-outdated model of dividing humanity into different races favored by white supremacists. The term was originally borrowed from Genesis, where it is used for the descendants of Ham, son of Noah.
The term was originally used in contrast to the other two proposed divisions of the world based on the story of Noah: Semites and Japhetites.
I found the initial sentence provocative but recommend the article to everyone interested in Gygax's imagination for the Flan. The linguistic maps are useful, as is the intellectual history of the concept, which viewed Hamitic groups as a branch of civilizing "Caucasian" pastoralists that reentered Africa and spread throughout its northern and eastern reaches.
Did Gygax ever disclose which anthropological authors or books influenced him, or does anyone know who his professors were at U. Chicago?
N.B. In no way do I mean to imply that Gygax held white supremacist views. Rather, I understand that the reigning anthropological theories of his time, perhaps particularly during his college years, likely derived from older (late-nineteenth through mid-twentieth centuries) models of race and races.
You could interpret them that way, but Gygax said he based them on Africans. See his ENWorld Q&A:
Col_Pladoh at ENworld in 2002 wrote:
I can say that the Flan were not meant to be anything like the American Indians. they were of Hamatic-like racial origin, Negroes if you will. Little is known of them because they were generally absorbed into the waves of other peoples immigrating eastwards through the continent, so their culture was generally lost.
Yes, he did say that. But he also said
To Forge a Fantasy World wrote:
The Flan people, the aboriginal inhabitants of Oerik continent, were based loosely on a combination of Africans and North American Indians. The Oerid and Suel peoples were mainly drawn from the Indo-European models. The Bakluni "race" was meant to suggest the Asian, combining the Near East and Central Asia. These races alone, or in combination, provided plenty of cultural potential.
mtg wrote:
Not recalling the definition for Hamites, Hamitic, or Hamatic peoples, I started with Wikipedia, which begins:
Hamites is the name formerly used for some North African peoples by Eurocentric anthropologists in the context of a now-outdated model of dividing humanity into different races favored by white supremacists. The term was originally borrowed from Genesis, where it is used for the descendants of Ham, son of Noah.
The term was originally used in contrast to the other two proposed divisions of the world based on the story of Noah: Semites and Japhetites.
I found the initial sentence provocative but recommend the article to everyone interested in Gygax's imagination for the Flan. The linguistic maps are useful, as is the intellectual history of the concept, which viewed Hamitic groups as a branch of civilizing "Caucasian" pastoralists that reentered Africa and spread throughout its northern and eastern reaches.
Did Gygax ever disclose which anthropological authors or books influenced him, or does anyone know who his professors were at U. Chicago?
N.B. In no way do I mean to imply that Gygax held white supremacist views. Rather, I understand that the reigning anthropological theories of his time, perhaps particularly during his college years, likely derived from older (late-nineteenth through mid-twentieth centuries) models of race and races.
The distinction between the sons of Noah (Ham, Shem, and Japhet) is far older than 19th Century anthropology although it did inform it (and, in fact, is still in use by linguists with the terms Hamitic and Semitic languages, as well as such phrases as "anti-Semite" to mean someone who is racist against Jews).
As far as I can tell (and I am not an historian), in the Roman Empire, there was a pretty nuanced view of ethnicity, nationality and local political loyalty, and religion, with room for lots of interaction, overlap, and subtle distinctions. That multiculturalism under the unifying banner Rome of gets shattered when the Empire implodes under barbarian invaders, the Christian Church becomes an orthodox political force, and the Islamic invasions threaten "European" identity. What coalesces at some point in the middle ages is the hugely simplified "sons of Noah" idea, where
Japhet = European = White = Christian
Shem = Asian = Dark = Muslim and Jew
Ham = African = Black = Pagan
I don't know much about the education of Gygax, but it seems he was as much of a medievalist as he was an adherent of 19th century anthropology.
So, when he says that the Flan were meant to be "Hamitic" or "Negro", what does he mean? That they were darker skinned than the Oerid or Suel? That they were somehow a cursed race? That they were bound for servitude, as their nations were conquered and their culture lost in waves of invasion? That their hair was curly? That their religion was more natural / pagan / "Old Faith"? That their language structure was different?
In the absence of a longer and more descriptive quote, I don't think we can say. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
I don't know much about the education of Gygax, but it seems he was as much of a medievalist as he was an adherent of 19th century anthropology.
So, when he says that the Flan were meant to be "Hamitic" or "Negro", what does he mean? That they were darker skinned than the Oerid or Suel? That they were somehow a cursed race? That they were bound for servitude, as their nations were conquered and their culture lost in waves of invasion? That their hair was curly? That their religion was more natural / pagan / "Old Faith"? That their language structure was different?
In the absence of a longer and more descriptive quote, I don't think we can say.
Hey kirt, great to hear from you. I hope all is well for you and yours. Thanks also for directing us to Gygax's To Forge a Fantasy World: Greyhawk's Creation. I look forward to reading it.
To your last point, when I first read your post, it reminded me of the follies of so-called originalism (a la the late Justice Scalia) and the fundamental critique of CF! against acting hidebound to one person's view of the setting (even its creator / original author).
I particularly appreciate the possible connotations you suggest, which might (or not) have been in Gygax's mind when he created the Great Races of Oerik and the Flan in particular, as well as when he recalled what he had once imagined at various later moments.
As I return to GH, I find myself greatly interested in the Olman, Flan (particularly the Tenha but also those of Geoff, the Rovers, the Ur-Flan, and the groups that were discussed on GreyTalk as inhabiting the Trakøn and Drakøn peninsulas), and also how to adapt Earth's Silk Road to Oerth.
At the same time, I think the best way for me to approach any of these subjects is through sketching the contours of several possible campaigns and detailing just enough to facilitate creating the trajectory for adventure.
As a resource toward that end, has anyone attempted to map languages onto the Flanaess? Has anyone specified further dialects of the languages (beyond the WoG boxed set and LGG specifications)?
Hey kirt, great to hear from you. I hope all is well for you and yours.
I particularly appreciate the possible connotations you suggest, which might (or not) have been in Gygax's mind when he created the Great Races of Oerik and the Flan in particular, as well as when he recalled what he had once imagined at various later moments.
Hi marc, it has indeed been a while! It is good to hear from you again.
Now that I have had a chance to go through the wikipedia article you linked on Hamites as a 19th century anthropological conflation of language and racial theories, I would like to edit my original post:
1) Apparently Hamitic is no longer used as a term in linguistics. I didn't know that.
2) In the article there is a T and O map and much of what I said about the three sons of Noah is stated, which makes that part of my post a bit redundant.
3) I also had not realized that in the late 19th century and early 20th century for many the use of the term Hamitic was specifically to distinguish between the lighter-skinned and "superior" north and east african peoples as opposed to the darker-skinned and "inferior" central and west african peoples. I understand much better now your quote about civilizing pastoralists and mention of white supremacists and realize that my understanding of the term was rooted much more in the medieval Biblical sense rather than the more recent anthropological sense.
In particular with regard to the last point, since Gygax said the Flan were of "Hamitic-like racial origin, Negroes if you will", it seems more clear to me that he is using the term Hamitic in its medieval sense of "dark people from Africa" and not in the 19th century sense of "lighter-skinned Africans distinct from Negroes".
Add to this rasgon's assertion in another post that "Whenever he was asked, Gary Gygax insisted the Flan were modeled physically on Ethiopians" and his quote of Gygax in this post that "Little is known of [the Flan] because...their culture was generally lost."
I am now starting to believe that what Gygax meant was that the Flan in appearance were darker skinned and curlier-haired then the other races of the Flanaess, and that "Hamitic" for him just had a physical, not cultural meaning. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
Last edited by Kirt on Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
As a resource toward that end, has anyone attempted to map languages onto the Flanaess? Has anyone specified further dialects of the languages (beyond the WoG boxed set and LGG specifications)?
This is the language write-up I did for the players in my longest running Greyhawk campaign. I tried to strike a balance between making the way languages work in my campaign more real-world and not overwhelming the players with information. When the campaign, with players from Keoland whose primary language was Keoish, moved to the Wild Coast, I pointed out early on that they were communicating in a language that was not the one they daily used and that even then the accents and dialects of the people they were often communicating with made them hard to understand and vice versa.
Common: With it's earliest roots in the Migration Period (c. -450 to -250 CY) as a trade language derived from Ancient Baklunish and Old Oeridian, the rise and expansion of the Great Kingdom saw it mixed with the dialect of Old Oeridian spoken in the core lands of that nation, along with Suloise dialects, and bent to use as a language of administration and diplomacy as well as trade. Eventually it became the everyday language of most of the inhabitants of the Great Kingdom, and remained so even after that state began to decline and its further provinces became independent. Today, three-quarters of the Flanaess speak some dialect of Common as their first language. Even with dialectical differences, usually loan-words of local origin that have crept in, the differences in most of these dialects are so slight that all are mutually intelligible. There does remain a standard form, the Overking's Common, that is considered the proper way to speak and is usually the version spoken by nobles, merchants, and diplomats across the Flanaess and even beyond. When people say Common, this is the dialect they are usually speaking of.
Keoish: The second most commonly spoken language of everyday use, it is the primary language of Keoland, the County of Ulek, Bissel, Gran March, Sterich, the Yeomanry, and the Sea Princes; also being spoken widely in Geoff, and the Duchy and Principality of Ulek. It is also spoken in the human-dominated coastal cities of the Pomarj, but in a dialect that is so filled with loan-words that it is virtually unintelligible to other Keoish speakers. Keoish is derived primarily from the dialect of Old Oeridian spoken by the Keogh Oeridian tribe, and the Ancient Suloise spoken by the Suel refugees of the Sheldomar River Valley, led by the houses of Rhola and Neheli.
Old Oeridian: The basis for many languages and dialects in the Flanaess, Old Oeridian is currently seldom spoken, but it is written and read widely by priests, sages and scholars, as well as everyday scribes (lawyers, clerks, and the like), as much as a way of maintaining their monopoly as tradition. For this reason, most major libraries and archives have a wealth of material written in Old Oeridian. Despite it's name, Old Oeridian is not the universal form of the language spoken by the ancient Oeridian tribes, which began to vary widely in dialectal differences during the Migration Period. The language we now refer to as Old Oeridian is the Aerdian dialect of that language, and in the early days of the Great Kingdom was known as High Oeridian.
Baklunish: The form of this language most often used in the Flanaess is that preserved in writings from the days of the Baklunish Empire, which is referred to as Classical Baklunish, and was a direct influence on Common. The dialects spoken in Baklunish nations are collectively referred to as Low Baklunish. All are for the most part mutually intelligible.
Ancient Suloise: Rarely spoken today, even by the few scholars who know it; it survives primarily as a written language, useful in reading very old texts in Keoland, the Urnsts, the Sea Princes, the Lordship of the Isles, and other nations where Suloise refugees from the dissolution of the Suloise Empire settled.
Nyrondese: Closely related to Common, Nyrondese departs from that language in its heavy derivation from the dialect of Old Oerdian spoken by the Nehron tribe, in what is now the Kingdom of Nyrond. It is different enough from Common as to be almost entirely unintelligible to the speakers of most dialects of that tongue, giving it the distinction of being its own language. Outside of Nyrond it is seldom spoken.
Urnstese: Like Nyrondese, Urnstese is closely related to Common but also heavily influenced by Urnstaal, which was the language derived from Ancient Suloise that was spoken in the Urnsts until those states were absorbed by the Great Kingdom. As such it is unintelligible both to speakers of Common and its mutually intelligible dialects, and to speakers of Ancient Suloise.
Velondi: The dialect of Old Oeridian spoken by the Oeridian tribe that settled the rural area of the borderlands between the Kingdom of Furyondy and the Archclericy of Veluna, roughly corresponding to the Duchy of the Reach in western Furyondy; and in eastern Veluna, the eastern half of the Diocese of Grayington, and the northern half of the Diocese of Devarnish. It divides the speakers of Velunan, the dialect of Common spoken in the rest of Veluna, and speakers of Furyondian, the dialect of Common spoken in the rest of Furyondy. Those two groups of speakers can understand each other well enough, though they are divided geographically by the speakers of Velondi, a language which is almost wholly unintelligible to either group. Whether the person is a daily speaker of Velondi or their respective regional dialects of Common, the accent of most people from Veluna and Furyondy sounds very similar to those not from those nations.
The Cold Tongue: Known as Fruz among its native speakers. It is primarily derived from a dialect of Ancient Suloise mixed with the Flan dialect spoken by the natives of Thillonria before they were absorbed by the Suloise migrants who became the Frost, Snow, and Ice Barbarians. It is seldom heard outside its homeland.
Flan: Though it is just one language belonging to that family of languages spoken by the original inhabitants of the Flanaess, it is used for the name of the language spoken in the Duchy of Tenh, the most prominent Flan nation. It is related to what is called the northeastern group of Flan languages, and is thus similar to Arapahi, which is spoken by the Rovers of the Barrens, and Colten, spoken by the descendants of that tribal confederation, now subject to the rulers of the Hold of Stonefist. Some scholars argue that it was the language group of the aboriginal Flan of Thillonria before they were conquered and absorbed by the Barbarians, but that claim is dubious at best, and probably more the result of some loan-words from Colten being introduced to the Cold Tongue through contact between those peoples.
Gyric: Belonging to the so-called western group of Flan languages, Gyric is the language of the Grand Duchy of Geoff and the Flan- descended clans of hillmen in northern Sterich. It is closely related to Eeomic, a language spoken among highland Flan clans that inhabit the Little Hills, in the Yeomanry.
Terg: Another Flan language although unlike most spoken in the Sheldomar Valley. It is an isolate, belonging to the northern group of Flan languages which are spoken primarily in Blackmoor, the Burneal Forest, and small groups of nomadic Flan who live to the north of those lands. As such, Terg is completely unintelligible to speakers of the nearby Flan languages, Gyric and Eeomic. It is the language of the Flan people who share its name and inhabit the the foothills of the Jotens in the trans-Javan lands of the County of Cryllor in Keoland. At this point in time it is spoken by few except the most isolated inhabitants in trans-Javan Cryllor, but has contributed considerably to the distinctive Keoish accent of those people.
I am now starting to believe that what Gygax meant was that the Flan in appearance were darker skinned and curlier-haired then the other races of the Flanaess, and that "Hamitic" for him just had a physical, not cultural meaning.
This seems to be the consensus, which is novel to me—I don't recall having learned it during my past engagements with online Greyhawk fandom—and I enjoy how it complicates my prior vague modeling of the Flan on Native Americans.
smillan_31 wrote:
This is the language write-up I did for the players in my longest running Greyhawk campaign. . . .
smillan_31, that was fantastic. Have you written your list of the languages and dialects? I'm particularly interested in your Common dialects, Velunan and Furyondian, as well as your northeastern and western groups of Flan dialects.
It's been a long time since I attempted something of the sort (I think before 2e), and if my notes still exist they're handwritten and in a storage unit . . .
I seem to remember Chaav and Urbanus being in one of the D&D 3.5 expansion books, but I've never seen them for Greyhawk. Same thing for some of the non-human deities. I've never heard of Ayailla, Cas, Estanna, Lastai, or Phieran.
There's an NPC in Races of Destiny listed as an example of the Urban Soul prestige class, which is for champions of Urbanus. I don't remember the NPC's name, but the text specifically mentions that he's the guardian of Rel Astra.
I seem to remember Chaav and Urbanus being in one of the D&D 3.5 expansion books, but I've never seen them for Greyhawk. Same thing for some of the non-human deities. I've never heard of Ayailla, Cas, Estanna, Lastai, or Phieran.
Yeah, it depends on how expansive a view you have of what "Greyhawk" is. By the "generic 3.0 and 3.5 stuff are loosely Greyhawk" metric, they belong on the list, but of course, you're not required to use them in your own campaign by any means.
But if you need/want some new minor demigods, these are available and not claimed by any other campaign setting. Some of them have canonical connections to those Greyhawk gods used in core 3.x products. Some of them could be used as gods of distant lands beyond the Flanaess, or they might be variant aspects of more familiar gods. Or you could ignore them entirely.
Book of Vile Darkness: Karaan, Rallaster, the Patient One, Scahrossar, the Xammux, Yeathan
Book of Exalted Deeds: Ayailla, Chaav, Estanna, Lastai, Phieran, Valarian
Deities & Demigods: Taiia, Elishar, Toldoth, Dennari
Frostburn: Aengrist, Hleid, Iborighu, Levistus, Telchur, Thrym, Vatun
Heroes of Horror: Cas
Libris Mortis: Afflux, Doresain, Evening Glory, Nerull, Orcus
Lords of Madness: Aboleth pantheon: Bolothamogg, Holashner, Piscaethces, Shothotugg, Y'chak. Aberration deities: the Great Mother, Ilsensine, Mak Thuum Ngatha, the Patient One, Tharizdun
Races of Destiny: Urbanus, Zarus, the Illumian pantheon
Races of Stone and Races of the Wild also include some new nonhuman deities I'm not going to bother typing out right now.
Quote:
Zol Darklock comes from castle Greyhawk. Nuff' said.
Other deities mentioned in WG7 include Genericus Brant the Universally Bland, Aunt Bee (demon queen of bees), and Su Shi (goddess of raw fish).
There are also some deities that only appear in Andre Norton's novel Quag Keep.
Complete Warrior also has the "warrior pantheon," nine new martially-focused gods, one for each alignment. They would make fine servant powers (quasi to demigod status) for other deities.
3,000 obahs (guardian spirits) of Mur, from Dungeon #136, probably also count as minor and obscure. The ones described in the magazine are:
-Shensi the Serpent, the obah of peace of mind
-Mumar, obah of soil
-Ciomar, obah of mountain springs
-Zinrial, obah of fertility
-Gobal the Dancer, obah of prosperity and success
-Tektek the Faithful, obah of loyalty, friendship, and dogs
-Balim, an alias for Baalzebul
-Karkush the Ferocious, obah of girallons
-Agalamar the Silent, obah of fate
-Shamarae the Lover, an alias for Shami-Amourae
-Wynnarth the Dervish, an alias for Gwynharwyf
-Veskerwan, obah of death
-Susussan of the Sky, obah of the sky and flying creatures
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