Please forgive me if this has been discussed before. I Used Greyhawk as my go-to setting back in the very beginning. I got married kids, work, back to school, house, garden, kids in school out of school, grand children, empty nester….
So I have used the Wilderlands and FR but neither really do “it” for me. I recently invested in Frog God Games Lost Lands. It is so huge that I am overwhelmed. It was not originally a cohesive setting, and only recently has is become a “whole” setting. To me, it seems contrived and forced.
Back to the discussion here; I dug up my old Greyhawk Folio, T1 Hommlet, G-series, D-series, Q1 modules and others. I am going to run a campaign in the Greyhawk setting, but I find there are what, like 4 time lines? 576 CY, 591 CY, pre-war, post-war, Living Greyhawk, Greyhawk Reborn…the list goes on possibly. I am not sure I like the flavor of the setting after Gygax left TSR. There are a few gems in there but as whole, I am not sure. It seems scripted. It could be the novels and who decided canon.
Anyway, before I get too far off track, is there a time line for modules so that I can limit myself to just 576 CY? I want to star there and use bits of the newer (ha – 25 years plus) stuff as seems logical. If my players take out Iuz or Zugtmoy or who-ever before certain things happen, then the time line would be my own. The other modules would be more of a reference than canon, right?
Not a big fan of the Chrondex. At least if its being presented as anything but someones idea of the setting rather than as something official. The Gygax era promised not to offer details on the big picture of the campaign, something which has been repeatedly violated and not in the spirit of Greyhawk as promised. The IP owners can violate this promise to their hearts content but DMs dont have to acccept it.
Not a big fan of the Chrondex. At least if its being presented as anything but someones idea of the setting rather than as something official. The Gygax era promised not to offer details on the big picture of the campaign, something which has been repeatedly violated and not in the spirit of Greyhawk as promised. The IP owners can violate this promise to their hearts content but DMs dont have to acccept it.
Which is why I said "the closest thing." At least as far as I know. Few other timelines (such as those found in the early Oerth Journals) are as heavily sourced.
Please forgive me if this has been discussed before. I Used Greyhawk as my go-to setting back in the very beginning. I got married kids, work, back to school, house, garden, kids in school out of school, grand children, empty nester….
So I have used the Wilderlands and FR but neither really do “it” for me. I recently invested in Frog God Games Lost Lands. It is so huge that I am overwhelmed. It was not originally a cohesive setting, and only recently has is become a “whole” setting. To me, it seems contrived and forced.
Back to the discussion here; I dug up my old Greyhawk Folio, T1 Hommlet, G-series, D-series, Q1 modules and others. I am going to run a campaign in the Greyhawk setting, but I find there are what, like 4 time lines? 576 CY, 591 CY, pre-war, post-war, Living Greyhawk, Greyhawk Reborn…the list goes on possibly. I am not sure I like the flavor of the setting after Gygax left TSR. There are a few gems in there but as whole, I am not sure. It seems scripted. It could be the novels and who decided canon.
Anyway, before I get too far off track, is there a time line for modules so that I can limit myself to just 576 CY? I want to star there and use bits of the newer (ha – 25 years plus) stuff as seems logical. If my players take out Iuz or Zugtmoy or who-ever before certain things happen, then the time line would be my own. The other modules would be more of a reference than canon, right?
Anyone have a module time line out there? Advice?
I wouldnt worry about getting offtrack. Greyhawk is meant to be yours. Nothing new is being produced. Ghost of Saltmarsh is set in 576cy. Personally I was running a 579 but was back to 576. I take what I like from wherever I find. Im a big fan of Necromancer and FGG. Lost Lands has a great deal of material to plunder even if their setting is a bit meh.
Not a big fan of the Chrondex. At least if its being presented as anything but someones idea of the setting rather than as something official. The Gygax era promised not to offer details on the big picture of the campaign, something which has been repeatedly violated and not in the spirit of Greyhawk as promised. The IP owners can violate this promise to their hearts content but DMs dont have to acccept it.
Which is why I said "the closest thing." At least as far as I know. Few other timelines (such as those found in the early Oerth Journals) are as heavily sourced.
Anyway, before I get too far off track, is there a time line for modules so that I can limit myself to just 576 CY? I want to star there and use bits of the newer (ha – 25 years plus) stuff as seems logical. If my players take out Iuz or Zugtmoy or who-ever before certain things happen, then the time line would be my own. The other modules would be more of a reference than canon, right?
This is how I've played it. I've run 3 Greyhawk campaigns based more on canon than the old ones I ran years ago, which diverged wildly from even the folio edition. It's all okay for whatever you want to do as DM, but in more recent years I kind of liked the challenge if making even contradictory things from the various GH sources fit together in a campaign, even if it never impacted the players.
That said, the first campaign I ran was set in Sterich in 579 and diverged from the official timeline in background in that in 576 instead of sending a small team to take out the giants, Sterich had gone for a military solution and marched against the Frost Giants after taking care of the Hill Giants. The army was defeated at the headwaters of the Davish River and the Marquess of Sterich was believed to have been killed (In the official timeline he hadn't been promoted from earl to marquess until 585). It started out as a standard adventuring campaign and the farthest down the road I saw was the party ultimately being sent on a rescue mission into G2 once it was found out that the marquess had actually been taken prisoner and was still there. But then it became all about the internal politics of Sterich and a struggle between relatives of the marquess (secretly backed by a Scarlet Brotherhood faction) who wanted to take control of the country from his widow. Basically just saying anything can happen so run with it.
It was not originally a cohesive setting, and only recently has is become a “whole” setting. To me, it seems contrived and forced.
Yeah, Gygax didn't set out to build a world when he wrote D&D and started playtesting with his kids and their friends. That came later, and he basically made stuff up he liked and put it where he wanted. Much of the fleshing out came much later, and much of it after Gygax was forced out of TSR.
The downside is sometimes things don't make the sense they could. The upside is a lot of flexibilty in what your Greyhawk looks like.
SnoringRock wrote:
Back to the discussion here; I dug up my old Greyhawk Folio, T1 Hommlet, G-series, D-series, Q1 modules and others. I am going to run a campaign in the Greyhawk setting, but I find there are what, like 4 time lines? 576 CY, 591 CY, pre-war, post-war, Living Greyhawk, Greyhawk Reborn…the list goes on possibly. I am not sure I like the flavor of the setting after Gygax left TSR. There are a few gems in there but as whole, I am not sure. It seems scripted. It could be the novels and who decided canon.
It is scripted. Part of that was to support the new Battlesystem minature wargaming rules. Part of it was to pull Greyhawk together into a cohesive setting, because customers liked having story with their adventures (which are still largely dungeon crawls).
The first two Gord novels were published when Gygax was still with TSR, IIRC. After that, he had to be more obscure, but most of the stories don't really take place in Greyhawk once you get past the first novel. Some people consider it canon, others don't because of the inconsistencies. YMMV.
Greyhawk Reborn is not canon. It is the attempt of some Greyhawk fans to keep the setting going in a unified way much as the Living Greyhawk setting (which is canon, because it was officially published by the RPGA with WoTC's blessing) did. I don't think Greyhawk Reborn is sanctioned by WoTC (but hey, I could be wrong).
That's not a slam at them; I've looked at it and I do think its well written. But it's rather dark for my taste, so I haven't found it to be useful for source material for me. So don't feel you have to use anything there. Love it or hate it, canon or not canon, you don't have to use anything you don't like.
Now, since the vast majority of the Living Greyhawk stuff is not legally accessible by the vast majority of DMs and players, it's questionable how canon the adventures are. Not to mention, some are extremely well written, but others are not. So, love it or hate it, it's a resource you can use if you can get it, but it's not the end of the world if you can't, and if you have it and don't like it, you don't have to use it.
Living Greyhawk Journal, a variety of Dragon Magazine articles, and the Places of Mystery articles on WoTCs website are readily accessible and should be considered canon. Change the timeline to suit.
SnoringRock wrote:
Anyway, before I get too far off track, is there a time line for modules so that I can limit myself to just 576 CY? I want to star there and use bits of the newer (ha – 25 years plus) stuff as seems logical. If my players take out Iuz or Zugtmoy or who-ever before certain things happen, then the time line would be my own. The other modules would be more of a reference than canon, right?
Anyone have a module time line out there? Advice?
There are several timelines online that others have already mentioned. My suggestion is to look at all them, and make your own based on your needs for your game.
The Greyhawk game I coDM with Skech went off the timeline rail a long, long time ago, and includes major, world changing events that never happened in canon. And we're fine with that. So if your players somehow manage to take out Iuz, that's fine. Simply adjust published material to suit.
We look at canon sources very carefully, and try to incorporate them when possible because it gives our campaign flavor with the published materials. But neither of us hesitate to rewrite things the way that best suit our game.
You shouldn't either.
Canon is a great way to avoid reinventing the wheel. But it shouldn't be a straightjacket, either. So have fun with it and do what you want, make it YOUR timeline for your world.
You should be able to fit most 1st edition (and basic D&D) modules in 576 CY. There are hints in the supermodules that they should take place in a particular order (the Scourge of the Slavelords supermodule claims it's "the next stage of the sweeping adventure begun in The Temple of Elemental Evil; the Queen of the Spiders supermodule recommends you play Against the Slave Lords or Temple of Elemental Evil before beginning Queen of the Spiders) but really it's a matter of personal preference and recommended character level.
I12 Egg of the Phoenix: Takes place roughly 365 CY (source). Notes: Empyrea has little to do with the Flanaess, so you could set this any time you wanted without affecting the rest of Oerth.
WG5 Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure: Takes place between 560-570 CY, given the pregenerated character levels. This is only important if you're actually playing Mordenkainen, Yrag, Bigby, and Rigby, though. If you're playing original characters, an expedition into Castle Maure could easily be a decade later.
C2 Ghost Tower of Inverness: Justin Lorinar is Duke of Urnst, so it must take place in 571 CY. His brother Karll becomes duke in 572. Notes: you could change when Justin ruled, or have Karll be the one who sends the PCs to the Ghost Tower.
T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil: takes place ten years after the Battle of Emridy Meadows, which was in 569 CY, which means this adventure must take place in 579. The ten year span isn't that important, though; it could be more or less than that.
A1-4 Scourge of the Slave Lords: The supermodule is set after T1-4.
GDQ Queen of the Spiders: This supermodule mentions the events of A1-4 and takes place after, but other sources have the GDQ series happening as early as 576. They may have happened as late as 583-584, when the giants conquer Geoff and Sterich. In 1999 a sequel of sorts, Against the Giants: The Liberation of Geoff, compiled G1-3 and added G4-6, setting them all in 591 CY.
WG6 Isle of the Ape: This is assumed to take place years before the Greyhawk Wars. By the From the Ashes era, the Crook of Rao is in Rel Astra somehow.
WG8 Fate of Istus: Events in this adventure occurred between 576 and 582 CY. This module marks the transition between 1st and 2nd edition.
WG6 Isle of the Ape: This is assumed to take place years before the Greyhawk Wars. By the From the Ashes era, the Crook of Rao is in Rel Astra somehow.
And it suggests via the introductory background that it takes place after S4 and the presumed defeat of Drelnza.
Allan. _________________ Allan Grohe<br />https://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html<br />https://grodog.blogspot.com/
SOMEWHERE in my collection I think I recall seeing not just a list of module locations but also when they occurred...
The GREYCHRONDEX VERSION 4.2 (5/15/01), to which Rob linked, notes on page 1, "For the 'official' dates, see Roger Moore's 'The Adventure Begins' and the RPGA's Greyhawk sourcebook, Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, and WotC’s Gazetteer."
Not a big fan of the Chrondex. At least if its being presented as anything but someones idea of the setting rather than as something official. The Gygax era promised not to offer details on the big picture of the campaign, something which has been repeatedly violated and not in the spirit of Greyhawk as promised. The IP owners can violate this promise to their hearts content but DMs dont have to acccept it.
Which is why I said "the closest thing." At least as far as I know. Few other timelines (such as those found in the early Oerth Journals) are as heavily sourced.
Does it have source references?
Uhh, yeah. Open the link and see for yourself. The fourth column. The one labeled "source."
There are hints in the supermodules that they should take place in a particular order (the Scourge of the Slavelords supermodule claims it's "the next stage of the sweeping adventure begun in The Temple of Elemental Evil; the Queen of the Spiders supermodule recommends you play Against the Slave Lords or Temple of Elemental Evil before beginning Queen of the Spiders)
This was a bit weird, though, since the backstory of T1-4 implied that Q1 had already happened. It mentions a "sharp check dealt to Lolth in her plans to wreck evil" and states that many of the Temple's cultists turned to Lolth after Zuggtmoy's imprisonment. "And although Lolth hated Zuggtmoy's Elemental Evil, she so lusted for power that she accepted such service. Had she not been routed, her dark followers so crippled, much might have come of this. But as it transpired, Lolth could—and can yet—give only encouragement, without physical or magical aid, to those who call on her."
If Lolth's weakness was because of her defeat in Q1, this makes some sense, but, as I said above, the GDQ supermodule specifically takes place after the events of T1-4. But it's true that T1-4 doesn't specify the nature of the "sharp check dealt to Lolth." So perhaps some other event limited Lolth's power to intervene on Oerth, like her priests' conflict with the Elder Elemental God's cult. It feels like there's an untold story here of Lolth suffering some great defeat prior to the construction of the Temple of Elemental Evil. It seems more dramatic than House Eilserv and its allies defecting from Lolth's faith to the Elder Elemental God; it feels like Lolth suffered a banishment which allowed Eclavdra to become confident she could defect from Lolth with impunity in the first place. And yet, by the time the GDQ series rolls around, Lolth is powerful enough that she can invade multiple worlds at once.
Question:
I note that there seem to be a lot of folks who are unhappy with the Greyhawk Wars material, but I also hear of campaigns set in the late 500's or early 600 CY. In some cases these are folks who have been running their campaigns for decades and have developed their own histories.
So what I'm wondering is if there are any timelines out there that extend in to the 580's and beyond but give an alternative history than what is given in Greyhawk Wars. I mean something that may be well respected by at least some members of the Greyhawk community and provides an alternative for how events unfold after the 570s. _________________ The eternal war between Law and Chaos flared often in Greyhawk... But the laws of Chance will let neither gain full sway. Quag Keep, Chap 1&2
The Gygax era promised not to offer details on the big picture of the campaign ...
Exactly where and when was this promise made, and by whom?
Because I remember Gygax making specific statement about all of the products that were going to be made updating the world, and a series of articles in which he and Rob Kuntz were literally offering details of the big picture and changing the world as he went, making an entire tour of the Flanaess.
Maybe JasonZavoda meant time-wise, instead of space-wise? As I recall the original plan was to flesh out the totality of Oerth, which would definitely be a "big picture" of sorts... but if instead we think time-wise, then maybe Gygax's plans might have been for a single (short-duration) snapshot? That would allow everyone latitude for "how things turned out" or some such.
I'm just completely guessing, of course. No sources or quotes from me on this one. _________________ Does the walker choose the path, or does the path choose the walker?
Maybe JasonZavoda meant time-wise, instead of space-wise? As I recall the original plan was to flesh out the totality of Oerth, which would definitely be a "big picture" of sorts... but if instead we think time-wise, then maybe Gygax's plans might have been for a single (short-duration) snapshot? That would allow everyone latitude for "how things turned out" or some such.
I'm just completely guessing, of course. No sources or quotes from me on this one.
Gygax always promised a City of Greyhawk and Castle Greyhawk. What he had said was that he didnt see that people would want a setting or adventures not their own and the Folio was something that was a surprise hit among his own players to the point he started running people in the Flanaess Greyhawk rather than his own alternate North America.
The promise of TSR not interfering with the setting goes back to the folio. The material Gygax and Kuntz posted in Dragon is like all material in Dragon 'Unofficial". Dragon magazine was meant for variants and optional ideas. I can quote that many times. Just ran across that comment in Dragon #7
The promise of TSR not interfering with the setting goes back to the folio. The material Gygax and Kuntz posted in Dragon is like all material in Dragon 'Unofficial". Dragon magazine was meant for variants and optional ideas. I can quote that many times. Just ran across that comment in Dragon #7
In that respect, it's just like every other source. The joy of tabletop gaming is that it's all variants and optional ideas.
Gygax always promised a City of Greyhawk and Castle Greyhawk. What he had said was that he didnt see that people would want a setting or adventures not their own and the Folio was something that was a surprise hit among his own players to the point he started running people in the Flanaess Greyhawk rather than his own alternate North America.
That's something of a myth though. There never was a Greyhawk in "alternate North America" except in the vaguest and most general of senses. Greyhawk from the start was placed on the Castles & Crusades society map, along with Keoland, Urnst, Blackmoor, The Great Kingdom and others. The only thing that changed with the folio was that the map got a serious upgrade and a whole lot of new or "corrected" information was added to the base that was already there.
The material Gygax and Kuntz posted in Dragon is like all material in Dragon 'Unofficial". Dragon magazine was meant for variants and optional ideas. I can quote that many times. Just ran across that comment in Dragon #7
Dragon's official status fluctuated over the years. During the Paizo days it often touted it's official-ness, sometimes even with banners on the cover. Even in the unnoficial early days, Dragon blurred the line as it was used as a channel for official errata, announcements, and rulings.
As for Greyhawk, a lot of formerly unofficial lore has been canonized over the years. The Gygax and Kuntz articles were unofficial, then Gygax canonized certain details in the novel line, Kuntz canonized other parts in WG8, and Sargent carried many more into his works. A lot of Oerth Journal articles were unofficial, then canonized by Mona and company.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
