Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
Canonfire :: View topic - "Independent" States of the Flanaess
Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
"Independent" States of the Flanaess
Author Message
Master Greytalker

Joined: Jun 29, 2001
Posts: 773
From: Bronx, NY

Send private message
Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:42 pm  
"Independent" States of the Flanaess

"Independent" States of the Flanaess

One of my longstanding issues with the definitions and presentations of some of the countries and cities of the Flanaess is a great deal of the assertion of a presumed total independence. This generally relates to two terms: palatine and free city.
In a medieval context, neither means independent or sovereign. In a thoroughly modern context, free city does mean sovereign, but that is 18th century and later, and not medieval. However, they are commonly treated as meaning just that, in the process obscuring who their actual sovereign should be.
Compounding this is the use of non-royal titles for so many countries, including those which are, rather obviously, actually sovereign. On Earth, there are traditional practices explaining why various countries did not assume royal titles after independence, and we could expect those hold on Oerth.

Which countries and such would this apply to?
A starting list starts with the following:
Bissel
County of Ulek
County of Urnst
Verbobonc
It would, if the reference to "palatine" in the text but not the title of the Duchy of Urnst is taken as controlling.
It would also apply to Dyver, as its paying taxes to Furyondy and Gold County appears in Marklands. However, this is not established in the Folio.
None of these are fully sovereign. They might have minting and jurisdiction powers, but as palatines or associates, they are not absolute sovereigns.

For any of these countries, and for any other countries, I would propose a simple test of actual sovereignty:
Could the ruler make an alliance with Iuz?
If the answer is "No", then clearly the ruler is not sovereign and is subject to answering to some feudal ruler.
If the answer is "Yes", then the ruler would be sovereign, and their title should be revised, or at least clarified. (There would be at least a minor reason for a count palatine to retain the "palatine" in the title to distinguish from "ordinary" counts.)

Of course, this is only the opening salvo of a greater question, that being the "feudal" nature of several realms and whether the rulers hold allodial title to their lands or are actual vassals.
Adept Greytalker

Joined: Sep 20, 2001
Posts: 390


Send private message
Sun Nov 17, 2024 7:49 pm  

Why did you list County Ulek but not Duchy or Principality?

Isn’t it stated somewhere that Verbobonc is a vassal to Veluna?
Master Greytalker

Joined: Jun 29, 2001
Posts: 773
From: Bronx, NY

Send private message
Mon Nov 18, 2024 5:40 am  

County Ulek is explicitly called a "county palatine", inferring an active relationship to a feudal superior. The duchy and principality are more overtly referred to as independent, especially with their demihuman population.

Verbobonc is a "willing" participant with Veluna, with a strong suggestion of actual sovereignty.
Display posts from previous:   
   Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
Page Generation: 0.48 Seconds